Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:50, 12 February 2007

04/18/2005

This is a good start. It seems slightly verbose, but we can all address that later. I'd like to seem some mention of Pres. Bush's snap trip back to Washington to sign the Palm Sunday Compromise. This was later characterized as very partisian by many folks when compared to the administration's handling of the Red Lake High School massacre. It may give the reader a better understanding of the political atmosphere that surrounded the issues.--ghost 16:22, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Change of Ms. Schiavo to Schiavo

I disagree with these changes in the strongest possible terms. I will wait a short period to change the article to allow others the oppurtunity to revert it on their own. See my explanations on User talk:Professor Ninja. See also the Ms/Mrs. entries on Talk:Terri Schiavo. --ghost 05:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to bring this article into line with FuelWagon's recent edit of the Terri Schiavo page. Comments, questions?--ghost 20:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Done. Switched to informal. Switched some of the "Mrs. Schiavo's parents" references to "the Schindlers".--ghost 04:07, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Judge Greer's Jurisdiction

I removed/edited some of the following:

• Republican leaders in the House of Representatives, including Dennis Hastert of Illinois, Tom DeLay of Texas and Tom Davis of Virginia, opened a congressional inquiry of the House Government Reform Committee, which was to take place in Clearwater on March 25, and issued subpoenas for Terri and Michael Schiavo and several hospice workers. Because of her condition, Schiavo obviously would not have been able to testify; however, the subpoena gave her federal protection as a prospective witness, as it is a federal crime to prevent a person from testifying before Congress. Greer struck the subpoenas down as unconstitutional, although as a state judge, he did not have the legal authority to strike down congressional actions. Congress, however, did not appeal or assert it's authority to issue the subpoenas.

The last section may be POV, since I could find not backing of Judge Greer's authority in the matter. Since it was upheld, does it matter?--ghost 17:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Moved Advocacy and Commentary section

My compliments to Viriditas and GordonWattsDotCom for the recent work. The page is improved for it. One minor problem is the overall tone if the following:

Advocacy and commentary

• Official website of Terri Schiavo's family
• Blogs For Terri
• Abstract Appeal legal blog (commentary on Schiavo case, supporting the courts' actions)
• "U.S. Supreme Court Protects Liberty In Schiavo Case." ACLU Online, March 24, 2005 (commentary supporting courts' actions)
• "Analysis of “Terri’s Law:” Is constitutional?" The Register, October 31, 2003 , (commentary opposing courts' actions)
• MELONE, MARY JO, "Passion invested in Terri's Law must somehow give way to reason." St. Pete Times, September 27, 2004 (commentary opposing Terri's Law)
• Smith, Wesley J., "Terri Schiavo's Plight: A Case Study in Judicial Bias." Life News, Originally published January 30, 2004 (commentary opposing courts' actions)

I'm concerned that the overall effect of these links presents a POV. My first thought was to add other POV links; then I thought we could yank 1/2 of it; I decided it was better move it here. This sub-article should focus presenting the legal and political issues behind the case. Not argueing them.--ghost 03:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I saw your move, and my old computer's Internet Explorer window finally unfroze, and allowed me to respond. first, we note that "advocacy and commentary" is a theme in all the sources sections, so this section is not more "legal" than the next, or even if it is, it needs & deserves Advocacy & Commentary.

Secondly, your concerns are valid; I think I achieved NPOV, but I don't exactly recall, so let me pull the full data base -and we can analyze it. OK, here we go: The other links in the section were omitted by you, and the whole section stands as a unit. Here are the missing links:

Articles

• "House GOP files Supreme Court brief on Schiavo." Washington Times, March 23, 2005
• LEVESQUE WILLIAM R., "Court strikes down Terri's Law." St. Pete Times, September 24, 2004
• Cunningham, Laurie, "Fla. Supreme Court Declares 'Terri's Law' Unconstitutional." Daily Business Review (Law.com), September 24, 2004
• Florida court strikes down 'Terri's Law'. CNN, September 23, 2004

Legal documents

• Florida Supreme Court compilation of briefs in "Terri's Law" case

OK, let me post this, and then I will look at your concerns logically and mathematically -and with the open mind that I could be wrong or accidentally POV. By the way, thank you for your positive feedback, Ghost, on our contributions.--GordonWattsDotCom 03:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

• OK, now that I have two windows open -and can look at what I posted here goes: First, I will assume for the moment that advocacy and commentary is needed for Terri's Law, but I won't defend that point "at this point," and leave it for part 2. Now, looking at the numbers "as a whole," here's what we've got: (Judges, get the score cards.)

(For the sake of simplicity, I will assume ALL parties are "pro" Terri, even those that didn't want to feed her; but, in this context, "Pro" shall mean "Pro FEEDING Terri," OK?)

Terri's family's site=PRO; Blogs for Terri=PRO; Abstract Appeal's comments, where he first answers a reader -and when he was interviewed by the Times, both place him as ANTI, but he is neutral on a good many other subject not related to the courts' decisions, like whether or not mike beat his wife; The ACLU piece is ANTI; The Register piece (one piece at two mirrors) is PRO; Mary Jo Melone is clearly ANTI!! Wes Smith is PRO. The news articles that I posted to the page, and then reposted here are all neutral, and thus I shouldn't have needed to post them. Whoops! 4-3, not equal numbers.

Ok, let's count the votes: Pro opinion pieces are: four in number. Anti pieces are: three in number. Oops! There is slight POV problems, but I recommend adding one more link to an article with an anti point of view. Using Google.com, that should not be too hard. To delete any of the opinion pieces would be sin, as they are all high quality. Also, I now make my argument to keep advocacy and commentary: The reader should not be cheated on this page, because of internal personal feelings. If all the pieces are indeed quality (and I think they are), then they should be available for review for the reader. The Register piece is especially detailed, probably more lengthy and detailed analysis than any other piece, pro or con, and I am told that it has received lots of positive feedback, but in praising this one piece, do you sense any conflict of interest. Also, would any conflict of interest necessarily be a good excuse to deprive the reader of these scholarly works? I recommend looking for one more opinion piece on the other side, and I, Gordon Watts apologize to the great spirit of WIKI for accidentally linking 4-3 pro and introducing slight numerical POV; It was an accident. I would have linked 4-4, had I been paying attention.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:13, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Here are some candidates:

• http://www.buchtelite.com/2005/0322/opinion_02.shtml "Focus on Schiavo," by Mike Hixenbaugh, March 22, 2005 Issue, buchtelite.com, clearly an ANTI feed Terri piece. "Is sucking food through a tube living? Schiavo has been forced to suffer as he watched this shadow of his former wife lay helplessly in a hospital bed for too long."

Argh...!! I am having trouble finding article that support starving Terri anywhere! LOADS of "feed Terri" commentary are floating around the net, proof that our side has support. Just a second; I will keep looking, "just to be fair."

• http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/03/22/exploiting_terri_schiavo

"Exploiting Terri Schiavo," Boston Globe, March 22, 2005 "THE US Congress has no place at Terri Schiavo's bedside. Neither does the president of the United States." This is also an "ANTI" piece. I have brought "balance to the force." Let's do it! We can now safely post links that are not POV. If you post both of those, we will need one more "PRO" link, but I think I am up to the task.--GordonWattsDotCom 04:44, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

• Ghost, I got your message and responded on your page, explaining what I'm doing. I added the additional links to eliminate POV and am copying the "format" used in the Intelligent Design links section: .--GordonWattsDotCom 07:13, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Gordon, I think you misunderstood my intent. I'm questioning if this article should have an advocacy section at all. And I was concerned that the "equal numbers of Pro vs Anti" would be distracting. Which it is. Instead, what about an expanded legal ref section? I'm hoping that this article could be the quality that a law student could lean on for both links to case law and debatable topics. You're better at legal research than I am, so I need your help. And maybe Mia-Cle as well. But let emphasize: (1) I want to avoid Pro- & Anti- altogether. Why create a POV problem if we don't have too? (2) We could and should touch on the underlying legal issues on the State and Federal levels. I know you're more involved in Terri's Law, but I'm more focused on the Palm Sunday Compromise. There's a middle ground here, someplace...and that middle ground may assist the next people to argue similar cases. It's my prayer that a well written article can minimize the grief on all sides.--ghost 17:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

The controversial Intelligent Design page in WIKI, see link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Intelligent_design#External_links has this format, and it seems to work. There is no such thing as a NPOV, whether the "N" stands for "Neutral" or "No" as in "No point of view." There will always be some point of view, but the way to balance it is by equal representation, and have faith in the Intelligent Design editors, and trust their methods. Also, I am in favor of an expanded legal documents section. We can borrow from other WIKI pages -or look on the web. Let me suggest that the legal documents on these pages would be helpful:

• From Terri's official family site
• Many court docs you won't find anywhere else, including petition to UN
• mirror
• Find Law's compilation (also listed below --oops, I duplicated)
• Docs on a Hospice Patients Alliance site
• One Video of Terri which had not been released; some links bad, site not maintained, but first link is good, and has a mirror site to this formerly unreleased video, now floating all around the internet
• mirror
• A compilation on one of Gov Bush's official websites
• See also that links for court documents which are already on the main Schiavo page, copied and pasted here:

Compilations

• Findlaw's compilation (http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/lit/schiavo) (legal documents relating to the Schiavo case)

Tampa Bay Online's compilation (http://reports.tbo.com/reports/schiavo/)

• Abstract Appeal's compilation (web log) (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) (by Matt Conigliaro)

The University of Miami Ethics Programs' compilation (http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo_project.htm) Information sites

• Amicus National, Inc. (2005). LIVING WILL / STATE SPECIFIC (https://www.legaldocs.com/htmdocs/livin_st.htm). Site providing free living will forms on a state-by-state basis. Retrieved April 16, 2005

• Zorn, Eric (2005). FOR YOUR REFERENCE - THE SCHIAVO CASE (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/03/for_your_refere_1.html). Chicago Tribune. Retrieved March 31, 2005

I hope this helps.--GordonWattsDotCom 11:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Intellectual Honesty: In case you didn't notice, ghost (and friends), some of the links I'm suggesting above are my own. Two of them are not maintained well, and have bad links, but I included them just to be on the safe side. As a matter of "intellectual honesty," when I promote links, and I run into a few of my own pages, in a routine Internet search (or memory search), I ask myself if this information is useful for the reader. Usually (but not always) it is. So, while I am caught between the ethical dilemma of not promoting my own websites -or, in cheating the reader, sometimes I come down on the side of providing the reader with all the information he or she needs to get the full picture. However, in order to be "intellectually honest," I must also say and admit that I just wanted to be honest and let you know of my disposition here about not hiding selected links, just because they happen to be my own. But, I am not an island unto myself. Right of wrong, my views and actions are still subject to the community review and analysis. Since I have shown by my actions that I have the interests of the reader at heart, I would ask that others would have the same goal, and put politics and personal biases aside, and merely look at the quality of the material: The web pages in question (mine included) will not be here forever! And, neither will the readers, so we must "strike while the iron is hot." In fact, I may be here less than I would like, as I have to prepare for a job search, and I am ill equipped at the moment, my personal belongings having been allowed to grow very disorganized whilst I was in court, on the web, and at protests. (In other words, my room is as messy as H-ll!) I hope my points are clear and not offensive. Take care,--GordonWattsDotCom 11:47, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• ::::: * Update: I fixed the section, per above; The only two pages I left out above were two of mine, but they were not maintained well and got the boot. All the rest meet my high-standard seal of approval and should stay, I think.--GordonWattsDotCom 13:30, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Much better. Thank you. Although I continue to disagree on an Advocacy section being appropriate in this article, I sincerly appreciate the work on the legal section. I also appreciate the removal of your links. I know you feel that they add value, but they create the appearence of a conflict of interest.

There are two issues in dispute. One is the use of an advocacy page. The other is links to some of my research. You are right -they give the appearance of conflict. There are a total of four (4) links in that section to my sites, but I am hesitant to actually remove them myself. I know you may not like my decision, but I am promoting you to "manager." As such, I would like you to click on all the links, to make sure they're good. Then, I want you to offer your opinion on whether or not they should stay. That way, the appearance of a conflict of interest is eliminated. I won't interfere in your decision-making process, since i've already cast my vote. I would hope and ask that you get someone else's input, preferably Viriditas or someone else who is both level-headed and has been involved in these pages here, and ask them about the two points of disagreement here, that is, whether or not to have the Advocacy section (if you still have misgivings), and then, whether or not to include links to my pages. I feel that by challenging the concept of an "Advocacy & Commentary" section itself, you are creating more barriers to an improved links section, and making public access to the "commentary" pages have to jump through extra hoops -in some cases, two. For example, let's say that one of my "commentary" peices on Terri's Law is a good one that is unequalled in merit. If, for example, you ask for feedback on the Advocacy section and then later ask for feedback on one of my websites, you are running the risk of the feedback coming back "well, let's approve the Advocacy section but vote against the Gordon links" and making this seems as a compromise. This is creating "extra hurdles." I would ask that you look at both the main Schiavo page and the "Intelligent Design" page, and note that they both have Commentary sections for the reader. This proposition is "neutral" and would waste our time to consider. Then, you would have a much better chance of getting a "fair hearing" on the few links that I provide. If you can't find my links (all four are on this article page), then that is good proof that they are quality. So, I have let you know how I feel. I don't plan to remove the links, as I feel they should be there, but I will not stop you and your colleague editors from removing them. You are on your honor to be fair and just.--GordonWattsDotCom 16:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Question: You also did extensive work on the legal refs on the Palm Sunday Compromise. Why aren't the federal legal refs here as well? It gives the impression that this is the Terri's Law page, dba Gov. involvement... If you want to avoid duplication, we should point the reader more interested in federal issues to the Compromise page. But I prefer to have this as a one-stop-law-student-shop.--ghost 14:23, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Why aren't the federal legal refs here as well?" This is a state case, not a federal case. The only federal references that should be listed (if we can find them) would be the appeal to any federal courts on this particular case, not the other "Terri's Law" case. There were two Terri's Law cases: One was the Jeb Bush state case, and the other was the Federal "Habeas Corpus" case. By the way, I was the first person to try Habeas Corpus for Terri. Others copied me, and one lawyer for Terri's family, whose name shall remain private, emailed me asking for another copy of that court brief after he/or/she lost the one I had served on their Gibbs law firm. The president to Not Dead Yet also emailed me and congratulated me for my close call. She is crippled, something I didn't know when first trying to enlist their help. (They said "no.") In short, however, let me conclude: The federal and state "Terri's Law" pages (this one, and the other one), may be able to be merged, but in attempting that, you would draw in a lot of biased editors who would delete my pages without checking them out first, and this would be wrong. They could theoretically have been merged, but they just as easily can be linked together. I tell you what -linking them together should not be controversial at all, so I will do that, and that should take care of the problems you envision for any young law students. If they're linked together, then any half-way normal law student should be able to find out what he/she needs to, so your problem should be solved. What do you think?--GordonWattsDotCom 16:45, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Edit War between me and Calton

In this edit, an edit war began between me and Calton. He removed links that had been on the page for ages -link which seemed to comply with current Misplaced Pages policy. I reverted his edit as vandalism, because I felt he was trying to take a swipe at me by removing links to web pages I maintained. Note if you would that in that edit, I did not, per se, add any links of my own -or any links at all, for that matter: i merely reverted to the last stable version.

Eventually, Calton was prompted to justify his edit, and in the edit summary of this edit summary, he offers three links.

I shall comment on them. Observe:

• First: He cites point 11 of WP:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided, which says: "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority."

• My reply: User:MartinGugino aptly pointed out here that indeed I have "special standing," which I believe would probably qualify me a "recognized authority."

• Second: Calton cites WP:EL#Advertising_and_conflicts_of_interest, which states, in succinct part, that "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked."

• My reply: This, on the face, makes sense, but my "rvv" revert of his edit, did not, per se, make an edit to add my links; it merely reverted what I felt was vandalism on his part. (He does make the good argument here in "Terri Schiavo" TALK that links are not necessarily good just because they've been on a page for a while.) However, this policy doesn't apply: I am not adding links; I was reverting his vandalism.

• Lastly: He cites Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Using_online_and_self-published_sources, which is a lengthy section on general policy here.

• My reply: Calton fails to specify what exactly the problem here is. One of the links he removed was to an opinion piece on Terri's Law, which should not be construed as news. Opinion is not news. The other links he removed was to a petition before the United Nations, which qualifies as news.

So, the question arises: Is the news source credible? We turn to the Misplaced Pages on that link above, which states: "When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications."

Indeed, even as Martin pointed out, the Florida Supreme Court commented on my case, and gave me three "support" votes, three more than Governor Jeb Bush on the same subject. Also, I have been published in other, lesser known, journals on the subject of Terri Schiavo.

• These would see to indicate that he is wrong on the point; I feel uncomfortable making an edit to revert his vandalism -because while this is permitted even under the more stringent policy (that edit did not explicitly add links: It merely reverted to a previous, stable version), the end result is that it does re-add the links back, and I certainly have a conflict of interest: I am the manager of those sites.

• I am not sure what I will do - I think I will solicit input from other editors: Indeed, I am a Christian and follow the example of Jesus, as John 13:15 asks me to do, and Jesus would not push his own agenda, but that of God; however, in the end, maybe I need to act to bring attention to this matter, and maybe I do need to revert Calton. I will try to polite approach first, as a hatt-tip to Jesus.--GordonWatts 14:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, label that edit as 'vandalism' one more time when it is not, and you will be in risk of losing your edit privileges. That goes for labelling any edit, not just that one.

To be very clear: you have created your own Geocities opinion site, and are linking to it. This is directly and explicitly ruled out in Misplaced Pages policy, as you mention above. You are not a "well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise". Even if you were, and you are not, this falls afoul of our guidelines on conflict of interest. The link stays out. Proto::► 16:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have stated my response above, and I shall not repeat myself; Did you not read my response here?--GordonWatts 16:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

To be very clear: you have created your own Geocities opinion site, and are linking to it. The links had been on these pages for ages, and I only reverted Calton's edit; That is not the same as "linking" to a page. Big difference: Reverting an edit (which is what was done here) and adding a link to a page are 2 different things--GordonWatts 16:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Proto and, for the record, I did read through the description above in its entirety. The link, which is inappropriate as outlined at WP:External links, should not be included in the article, and GordonWatts should refrain from editing the article as he has made his conflict of interest apparent. Removal of the link is not vandalism, and it is incivil to repeatedly label an edit which follows policy as vandalism. Leebo 16:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully dissent, but I have outlined my replies to all 3 arguments raised by Calton, and the only one that somewhat convinces me is the conflict of interest argument. Although I technically did not add any links just now, I did make a revert which "effectively" added them, and so, I agree that I violate the "spirit" of "conflict of interest" even if not the letter of the law.

However, you are entitled to your opinion; So noted that the current opinion on this matter is 3-2, with my supporting the links and MartinGugino supporting some of my main arguments -even if not explicitly commenting on the links in question; and, you and Calton and Proto are in opposition. Thank you for weighing in. Even if the article loses these valuable recourse links, the wiki is able to function open and in the light with input from editors. That's what it's all about in wiki-land.--GordonWatts 17:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

"The link, which is inappropriate..." Hold on a sec, Leebo86: There were TWO links deleted by Calton. Are you sure you read through the edit history too?--GordonWatts 17:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Before you fall for Gordon's latest snow job, note that BOTH of the sites are his. --Calton | Talk 17:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I do realize that, and phrased it singularly because I considered it to be one site despite 2 links. Both links were inappropriate. Leebo 17:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was using the plural you (as in "y'all"), not you specifically, Leebo. --Calton | Talk 17:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No offense taken; I wanted to make my response to GordonWatts at the same time. Leebo 17:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have not been following this situation as I have been having my own problems with Calton

Sorry, I don't have much to add to this conversation other than a little information on Calton. - SVRTVDude 18:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon's career as a legal beagle

...the Florida Supreme Court commented on my case, and gave me three "support" votes, three more than Governor Jeb Bush on the same subject

To learn how empty that boast is, see the legal history outlined at User talk:Duckecho. --Calton | Talk 17:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

How... enlightening. So, does this essentially mean that Gordon's conflict of interest isn't even that tangible, considering the fact that his attempts to file were dismissed? Is that his only claim to being a "recognized authority" on the matter? Leebo 17:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Ask Google or Yahoo about me if you want to know. It is not right that I comment on myself here, so I shant do so.--GordonWatts 18:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Here, let me help you:

Google.com Results 1 - 10 of about 951 for "Gordon Watts" "Terri Schiavo". (0.36 seconds)

and

Yahoo! 1 - 10 of about 195 for "Gordon Watts" "Terri Schiavo" - 0.40 sec.

--GordonWatts 18:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Through searching, I found your site and some trivial blog and news posts that seemed as unaware about what really happened as I was when I first read your description. I didn't see anything that would substantiate your claim to being a recognized authority in light of Duckecho's talk page. Leebo 18:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Count the votes: I did better than the Governor -before the same panel of judges -on the same topic matters. Observe:

The Governor lost 7-0.

I (Gordon) lost 4-3.

If the governor is notable, I am more so. The court was an objective, 3rd-party, voice. Re-read the Misplaced Pages guidelines about sources and notability.--GordonWatts 18:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Gordon, I just read Duckecho's talk page, which Calton linked in the first post of this thread. Why are you trying to convince me that the two rulings are on the same thing when yours was dismissed without hearing any facts? They weren't the same issue. Leebo 18:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)