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== This article has deteriorated drastically in quality during the past few months. ==

As I commented in an earlier thread, in my opinion this article has serious structural issues. As I suggested, there are problems with questionable sourcing, and with what appears to be cherry-picking of sources to present a particular perspective. Most fundamentally though, as should be readily apparent when comparing the current state of the article with how it was say six months ago is that it has gone from a relatively well-structured article on 'Furry fandom' to what I think can best be described as a semi-coherent bloated mess. Parts of it simply aren't written in grammatical English, or lack any tangible meaning whatsoever (e.g. "More intellectual furries would claim that the central themes of the fandom have existed for thousands although the arrival fandom is a modern occurrence", or "In Australia during 2006, for New Zealand in 2007.") Much of it seems to be written by someone with a very limited vocabulary, and no concept of how paragraphs work. It now consists largely of assertions about furries sprinkled together almost at random, contradicting themselves from one malformed 'sentence' to the next.

And frankly, I don't think this is fixable through copy-editing. This isn't how articles get written - not if they are dominated by a single contributor hopelessly out of their depth. In my opinion, the article should be reverted to the state it was six months ago. The article had issues even then (e.g. with a few questionable sources), but it was at least readable, and gave readers some idea of who the furries are, rather than presenting them with something that might make them think they were reading an AI-generated parody of fancruft. Sorry to be harsh, but that's the way I see it. Good intentions aren't enough. Competence is required. And when it is lacking, it is in the interests of Misplaced Pages - and in particular the interests of readers who want to learn about this particular subculture - to act to ensure that the article is at minimum actually readable, coherent, and explanatory. Which as of now, it quite simply isn't. ] (]) 16:30, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:With the cherry picking accusation look I will admit I may have cherry picked once or twice for this article.
:But for most part I tried my best to represent as many views as possible.
:Like personally I’m against zoophilia and I’m a member of the furry fandom. If I was merely editing this article to push a certain view I would have removed the survey that mentioned 17% of furries identified as zoophiles and if I was cherry picking I wouldn’t have added the mention that a furry website in 2013 was defending zoophilia. So can you please stop saying stuff like {{font color|green| with what appears to be cherry-picking of sources to present a particular perspective.}}

:Regarding questionable sources. Keep in mind this article is about a fandom. It’s not like this article is about a medical topic.

:Also I don’t think reverting to making it more readable is ideal. It might be more ideal to copy and paste this entire article and rewrite the whole thing in a sandbox.
:Plus the older version of this article left out a lot of information and the older version had information that was outdated.] (]) 18:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:Or here’s an idea how about we create more articles. Like turn certain sections into there own articles.] (]) 20:23, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

::Who are you proposing should 'rewrite the whole thing'? As for splitting the article, what purpose is that supposed to serve? ] (]) 20:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

::::I could rewrite the whole thing or someone else could do it. If I had a lot of time.
::::Splitting it up could fix the problem of readability by making a bunch of smaller articles. Smaller articles are easier to read than big articles.] (]) 20:40, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:::::Sorry, but I simply don't think you are capable of fixing it, since you seem not to have understood what the issues are. The article was readable enough before. Anyway, I'd rather wait and see what other people have to say. If necessary, I could start an RfC, but first I'll see if anyone watching this page has anything to say. ] (]) 21:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
*I'd say split the Sociological aspects and demographics section into its own article titled ] (or something similar). Then revert the history section to the previous version. The rest of the sections I think are decent enough to stay and be cleaned up. ––] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:2.5px 3.5px;background:#005bed;font-size:76%">]</span> 21:42, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
::That section is problematic to say the least. It cites all sorts of sources (some clearly not RS) while failing to explain where and how the data was gathered - which probably at least in part explains why they are all giving different results. It also seems to miss-report what the data actually represents in places. I suspect that if it were cut back to RS material which actually explained what it was describing, it would be a lot shorter, and a lot more readable. ] (]) 22:07, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:::{{re| AndyTheGrump}} keep in mind the furry fandom is very internet based. It’s hard to do data on internet based communities.
:::Also many furries tend to keep their furry identity as secret.] (]) 22:18, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
::::I've tagged some unreliable sources. Specifically https://furscience.com/ is concerning. ––] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:2.5px 3.5px;background:#005bed;font-size:76%">]</span> 22:37, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:::::::{{re| FormalDude}} I don’t think FurScience is unreliable. I have seen another editor state it’s a reliable source regarding the furry fandom.] (]) 22:39, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
::::::::Who? There's ] where another editor complains about it being a self-published source. ––] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:2.5px 3.5px;background:#005bed;font-size:76%">]</span> 22:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

:::::::::Yup that’s the individual. The source is reliable regarding the Furry Fandom. It aren’t regarding other topics tho. So I can understand why you tagged it.] (]) 22:52, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

::::::: Actually I can sorta see why you tagged them now. Furscience may be reliable regarding the furry fandom but they have made some claims they might not have knowledge on. Like they claimed 16% to 2% of the general population had ADHD.] (]) 22:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

::::::::If anything, I think that Furscience is probably one of the better sources, as long as it is made clear who they are. There are several masters theses cited in the article, none of which is at all likely to be acceptable as RS. Again though, it isn't just a question of whether a source is 'reliable' in the abstract, it it is whether it is a valid source for the article content. Which again comes down to poor writing. As an example, the article repeatedly makes assertions about survey results as if they reflect furries as a whole, rather than those that have responded to a particular survey. You simply cannot make sweeping generalisations about any group based on a subset of self-selected survey responders. ] (]) 23:24, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
:{{re|AndyTheGrump}} No kidding… at {{format linkr|User_talk:CycoMa1#WP:OWN_and_furry_fandom}} I suggested to {{u|CycoMa1}} they pursue {{xt| slower process of article development}}, which clearly has not happened. The question is, how do we solve it? I don't really know how we get around naming their edits as one of the main sources of the problem, as their work now constitutes more than half of all bytes in the article; at the end of August 2021, they began , at that time the article was 53,846 bytes. It's now, many edits later, the majority of which are CycoMa1's, 109,971 bytes. In fact, CycoMa1 has 994 edits to this article, almost all of which were made since then. I don't see how we discuss this without discussing CycoMa1's contribution, and whether it's been overall positive. Is the version of August 2021 better? I'm not saying that, but if we want to compare, this is a logical place to start. ] (] • ]) <sup>please ''always'' ]!</sup> 01:13, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

::{{re| Psiĥedelisto}} I thought I did develop slower process of developing the article.
::I just think the earlier version of the article was outdated and misinformation. Do you think making smaller articles might be okay?] (]) 01:23, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

::Also the older version of the article might have been guilty of cherry picking. Although I can’t assume what the older editors were thinking. So I wouldn’t make that assumption.] (]) 01:27, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Also as I forgot to mention this but the sources currently in the article say a lot more on certain subjects of the fandom.

It’s just the article shortens stuff down so the article doesn’t become too big. So yeah I think making separate small articles might also help in making sure certain views not get distorted or misused.

Like maybe make a separate article on the sexual aspects of the fandom.] (]) 16:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

:I think you'd have difficulty convincing people that 'sexual aspects of furry fandom' was an ''independently'' notable subject. They get discussed a great deal - but that is because the sources see them as a significant part of the fandom. You can't properly discuss the fandom without discussing the sexual aspects, so trying to move them elsewhere would leave a gaping hole in the main fandom article. And in any case, ''the problems with this article aren't just down to size''. ] (]) 16:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Given the lack of response here, and given that CycoMa1 seems not to understand the many problems with the article as it stands, it seems clear that it will be necessary to ask for outside input on this issue. I shall be starting an RfC in the next few days, proposing that the article be reverted to the version of August last year. ] (]) 19:30, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
:I totally understand your issues with the article.] (]) 20:40, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

:I’m gonna try and rewrite the whole article. The older version of the article might had some original research or cherry picking any way.] (]) 23:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

::Given those two responses, I can only conclude that you are entirely incapable of understanding what the actual issues with your editing are. Which would seem to make an RfC on reverting the article pointless, since that is a behavioural/competence issue, rather than a content one. An RfC clearly isn't needed to revert the wrecking of an article through incompetence, even if done in good faith. Accordingly, I am going to revert to the August state tomorrow, unless someone offers a sensible alternative. And then raise your behaviour at an appropriate place if you persist in damaging the project. ] (]) 23:51, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

:::{{re|AndyTheGrump}} I don’t think it’s a good idea to talk about behavior with me when you were uncivil with me when I tried to civil with you when you first commented on this talk page. ] you admitted you were uncivil with another editor. You straight up said this {{font color| green| Yes, I was uncivil. I had raging toothache, to add to my usual grumpiness.}}
:::And judging by it appears you haven’t learned from your mistakes.

:::Also you talk about competence when you yourself have never even edited this topic before, you only started editing this topic like 2 weeks ago and I started editing this months ago. So I’m pretty sure I know more about the topic than you. Maybe we can ask someone who knows a lot more about the topic than the both of us.

:::Plus the older version of the article had problems. Even you admitted it had problems.
:::I have seen better sources and more reliable sources out there on this topic anyway. I guess the reason the sources back then weren’t ideal was because this topic wasn’t being touched upon as much as it is today.
:::It’s probably best to just rebuild the entire article from the ground up.

:::Plus the reason the current article looks bad is because honestly I rushed it, which is my mistake. I can make decent articles with enough time and patience.
:::I can just rebuild this entire article in a subpage of mine. Plus I have listened to all of your criticisms.] (]) 00:41, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

::::I am not going to debate with you further. ] (]) 00:45, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

::::::{{re|AndyTheGrump}} just do the RFC thing and get this whole thing over with. I’m pretty sure both you and I are getting tired of this nonsense.] (]) 01:01, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Given the above responses, which seem to indicate that CycoMa1 either isn't even reading my posts, or lacks the ability to understand a simple statement, I have reverted the article to the coherent, grammatical and encyclopaedic state as of August last year. ] (]) 01:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

:There wasn’t even a consensus. You said you were gonna RFC why haven’t you done that yet? ] (]) 02:00, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

:Look do a RFC and they agree with you that a rollback is okay I’ll be okay with it, deal.] (]) 02:47, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Given that this clearly isn't going to be resolved here, I have now started a thread at WP:ANI. ] (]) 03:12, 19 February 2022 (UTC)


== Revert to article version as of August last year. == == Revert to article version as of August last year. ==

Revision as of 00:22, 21 May 2022

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To-do list for Furry fandom: edit·history·watch·refresh· Updated 2019-02-16

  • Fix remaining issues highlighted in the good article review
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Revert to article version as of August last year.

As discussed in earlier an threads here, and at a subsequent thread at WP:ANI, this article has undergone very significant editing by a single individual over the last six months or so, leading to a marked deterioration in the quality of the article - compare its state yesterday with the August 2021 version. Since, in the ANI thread, the individual concerned has now acknowledged that the editing was non-constructive ("Look I knew I messed up the article and I honestly disappointed in myself for that. It honestly looks horrible in my opinion."), and since nobody seems to have raised any objections to me doing so, I have now reverted the article to the earlier state.

Clearly this will also result in the reversion of more constructive edits, from amongst the relatively few made during the period by other contributors, but we will at least now have a properly-structured, grammatical and encyclopaedic starting point to work from. Apologies to anyone who got their work reverted, but this seems the best method of restoring an article that is at least now readable. Over the next few days I will be looking back through the article history, and attempting to restore anything lost which is still relevant and compliant with policy.

I should note that amongst the issues raised with recent edits, beyond mere poor writing, were both questionable sourcing and the cherry-picking of legitimate sources for questionable content, and accordingly I'd ask that anyone looks carefully at any sources cited before restoring anything added recently and subsequently reverted. Even as it stood in August, there were probably a few minor problems that needed dealing with, but hopefully we can arrive at an article that does justice to its subject matter, and which at least aspires to be worthy of an encyclopaedia. Our readers deserve it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:59, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Cherry picking on zoophilia

Okay, so contributor User:AndyTheGrump reverted the article back to its older state for obvious reasons and I don't object to this version however this version still has problems nonetheless.

This version of the article has issues with regards to zoophilia. This version says A small proportion of the fandom is sexually interested in zoophilia (sex with animals), although a majority take a negative stance towards it. An anonymous survey in 2008 found 17% of respondents reported zoophilia.

However, the source cited for that statement says 17.1% of furries identify as zoophiles.

Also, the statement claims that a majority of the participants had a negative view towards zoophilia however the survey says this. Regardless of participation, most furries took at best a moderated view towards zoophilia.

This is clearly a case of cherry-picking. In that 2008 study only around 45% of the participants had a negative view of zoophilia, that’s not a majority.CycoMa1 (talk) 15:17, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Actually, almost all the article content regarding surveys is problematic. Any proper discussion of such content should begin by noting exactly who conducted the survey (i.e. in the case of the 2008 survey, the Furry Research Center, which though it aspires to academic credibility, probably deserved, might will be seen as non-neutral), and who the survey subjects were. No survey in this article should be cited for unqualified statements about what 'furries' in general think or believe. As for the specifics regarding zoophilia, it is a very tricky subject to get meaningful data on, for fairly obvious reasons, and Misplaced Pages certainly shouldn't be engaging in original research, as the section in question appears to be doing where it compares surveys concerning 'furries' with the results of surveys done on other groups. I'd be interested to see what other people have to say on this though, and before we do anything more we might do well to ask at WP:RS/N whether, and how, 'Furry Research Center' survey results should be used. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:50, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Since no one did anything or commented I decided to just edit the thing myself. CycoMa1 (talk) 20:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
I've now edited the article to remove the WP:OR etc, though I'm still not entirely happy with using the Furry Research Center data. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

More recent research on zoophilia.

The "Sexual aspects" section cites a poll from 2008 which found 17% of respondents to identify as zoophiles. However, I noticed another source from 2019 that found only 6.9% of respondents were interested in zoophilia. I think that further recent sources for this section should be pursued: From my experience, the fandom has an overwhelmingly negative view on zoophilia as a whole, and it is evident to me that the 2008 study is no longer an accurate representation of the fandom. (Forgive me if I'm using this section wrong, I'm still learning how to use Misplaced Pages.) — GreyAwoo (talk) 01:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. As I noted above, using furry-specific research organisations might be seen as problematic, but as long as we make it clear where the data is coming from, and its possible limitations, it is probably better than nothing, and we should obviously use later data if we can. I'll revise the article when I've had a chance to look at the source in more detail. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:40, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi Andy. As you review, please do note the credentials of the researchers involved in the FurScience project - many of them appear to be published in a variety of journals, etc. While some of them are furries, they certainly are not furry-specific in their scope of research as a whole. The project's been running for some time, it's quite comprehensive, and the research team has certainly been quite professional and focused, from everything I've seen. In addition, there is a fair bit of media coverage in which the project is covered and the experts in question used as sources. Cheers! Tony Fox (arf!) 04:37, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Certainly the research being cited by the media is a point in their favour. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:48, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I'd like to update the photo under Sociological Aspects to this one:

Gravellyplain (talk) 00:27, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Why? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

No. Sorry!--TZubiri (talk) 06:06, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

The terms "Furry" and "Fursonas" as an insult.

In my own the offensive version of the terms "Furry" and "Fursonas" is considered very homophobic and right-wing, and used it on politics, because of this, they probably resembled them as liberals and leftists, and this needs to stop! And I wish someone would create a term called "Right-wing fanboy(s)", to resemble right-wing extremists! — Preceding unsigned comment added by TakeHaru03 (talkcontribs) 05:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here - a language barrier, perhaps. Are you saying that there are some who use these terms as insults and that those who do this tend to be homophobic and/or far right? In general, furries tend to be more LGBTQ-friendly and on average are more left-leaning than the general population, at least in the USA (I think IFRP has covered this, though I don't have their research in front of me). If "furry" and "fursona" are being used in such a manner, we would want to find reliable sources covering such usage before including it in Misplaced Pages. mwalimu59 (talk) 16:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Of course it is. And people with far-right views are using it as a slur! — Preceding unsigned comment added by TakeHaru03 (talkcontribs)
As you have already been told on your talk page, Misplaced Pages article talk pages are not a forum. Either make an actual proposal for editing, directly backed up by published reliable sources, or find somewhere other than Misplaced Pages to complain. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TakeHaru03 (talkcontribs)
What. I'm a furry myself and I have never heard of anyone saying that the terms "Furry" and "Fursonas" are homophobic or right-wing. In fact, we find "furry" and "fursona" the proper terms. While technically there is also "anthro" that's mainly referring to making animals look human-like. ― Blaze WolfBlaze Wolf#6545 02:01, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
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