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LGBT

Why isn't she categorized as LGBT? She's married to a woman! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3754496/Caster-Semenya-returns-home-heroes-welcome-Controversial-South-Africa-runner-gives-gold-medal-adoring-wife-look-mobbed-return-Rio.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.234.241.1 (talk) 11:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Besides the political / personal sensitivity of the whole article, defining her as LGBT necessitates defining her as a woman. Here you go again..... Jazi Zilber (talk) 15:29, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, the ONLY important part is to have the central parts of facts well written and objectively. I do not think that adding more categories etc. is of the utmost importance. Even if technically, the LGBT category might be apt - I am afraid that some will find it objectionable one way or another. So no harm done for this categorization to be omitted.

That is ridiculous. Everyone identifies her as a woman (albeit with a special condition). She is even categorized as a female long-distance runner. So you can't have it both ways. She must be categorized as LGBT as well — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.177.155.128 (talk) 05:26, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

If she's intersex, then she's the I in LGBTQIA. So far she has not identified as intersex. Qzekrom (she/they • talk) 06:40, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I concur with the last two comments. I see no reason to not categorize her as LGBTQIA. However, she was found to have XY chromosomes (as per references 13, 14, 15), so wouldn't that be classified as intersex? 144.178.0.140 (talk) 20:19, 23 August 2019 (UTC) Darwin

Section on the intersex (alleged), XY chromosome controversy?

This has obviously become a matter of global attention and interest of late. It's not exactly clear to me whether a section on this issue would run afoul of WP:BLP, or otherwise invite highly objectionable contributions. At the same time, it's out there in RS and it could be handled carefully and sensitively. Thoughts? Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 07:46, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Even the New York Times now acknowledges she has XY genetic male chromosomes and that her's is not a case of XX genetic female hyperandrogenism as this Misplaced Pages article still incorrectly states: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/08/sports/semenya-xy-chromosomes.html

This Misplaced Pages article also incorrectly states that the IAAF rules apply to hyperandrogenous athletes, but (1) the rules apply to genetically male athletes with specific disorders of sex development and with testosterone levels of 5 nmol/L and above and who do not have complete androgen insensitivity and (2) the rules do not apply to genetically female hyperandrogenism and specifically mention excluding those with polycystic ovary syndrome.

No objections from anyone? This is a controversial area and the fact that it's not in the article already may have been due to legitimate BLP concerns. If no further comment then we can start on a section addressing this issue — clearly it is a major part of Semenya's notability at this point. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 19:02, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this really needs to be included. I was researching intersex gender identification and looked up Caster's Misplaced Pages entry, expecting full transparency and an explanation of the sporting rules now applicable to her. Instead, I found silence. I was thinking about complaining, because it reminded me of my early youth, when homosexuality was shamefully hushed up. Luckily, I saw the 'talk' tab and clicked on it. As a human rights lawyer, I think hiding the truth is very rarely helpful. Besides, as you point out, this story emerged years ago. It's not new. If people target it, that's their problem, not a reason to give in to prejudice. Thanks for agreeing to fix this. Tasha Corr (talk) 13:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Claims about testes

In diff, a statement was added that Semenya had internal testes; the only source which mentioned testes was a Letsrun site (a weak source) which claimed "some believe" it, so I removed the claim. It was re-added with a citation to a Telegraph article from 2009 which claims "Australian media" reported such a thing; however, in 2016, the New York Times noted that such reports could not be verified ("Nor could it be verified, as reported in 2009 in The Daily Telegraph of Australia, that Semenya had internal testes"), so I've removed the claim. Stating in Misplaced Pages's voice that Semenya definitely has testes seems unsupportable. Some might feel a temptation to simply rephrase: "Some people believe that Semenya has...". But we need to be cautious here, as WP:BLP advises:
"Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." -sche (talk) 00:52, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

thank you for you research, i agree that the claim should not be in the article. i found what i believe to be the original source making those claims, and it appears to have several other statements that don't hold up with ten years of hindsight, like that she needs "to have immediate surgery because her condition carries grave health risks". interestingly the article seems to have been deleted some time between october 20th 2013 and december 7th 2013 (the article is no longer available despite other sports articles from the same day being available online), though i could not find a specific retraction from the Daily Telegraph Australia. --Habst (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear from other better-supported citations in the article that she has internal testes -- 46,XY androgen sensitive with elevated testosterone, but if there isn't a strong reliable source that says it outright, it shouldn't be included as original research. IntOMIatrA (talk) 03:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

BLP issues / medical information / edit-warring

Ok - I've protected the page for 24 hours on an arbitrary version to get everyone to the talk page. Given this is a living person, and given that folks are bandying around personal medical information about this person, and adding (patently false) conjecture about the subject's genitalia, this will need to be discussed here before further edits are made. Some of them were egregious enough to be rev-del'd.

So please - discuss here and come to consensus, whilst being cognisant of WP:BLP - Alison 18:15, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this. I'll start with my views:

I think that we need to lay off the genitalia stuff completely. We can link the article about the specific intersex condition she has if (and only if!) we are absolutely certain that it is the correct one and we have solid RS references to prove it. People who are interested can learn about that specific condition there and how it typically affects people. We should not be talking about how it specifically affects Semenya in any way that is not directly related to her career as an athlete and can be demonstrated to be so with RS references. We should not be indulging in, or repeating others indulging in, speculation, gossip and abuse. We don't speculate about the genitalia of other athletes (even though this is a game that the British tabloid press have sometimes amused themselves with in the past) and there is no justification for doing so here. We are better than that.

I think we need avoid the use of the word "hermaphrodite" and any variant thereof. Possibly completely but definitely when using Misplaced Pages's own voice. It might be defensible to mention that she has been described as such by certain sources, maybe in the context of a section detailing the extent of the abuse and discrimination that she has been subjected to, but not in a way that grants any prestige or credibility to such descriptions. I think that we should be guided by asking ourselves When and how would we use, say, the "N word" in a BLP article? and if the answer to that is pretty much never, and only with the very utmost caution, then I think that's our answer here too.

I think we can all agree that mention of her testosterone levels is valid, as that is actually relevant to her performance as an athlete and that is where the controversies about her actually lie. That said, even that should not be overblown or worded in a sensational or demeaning way.

In summary, while I am not against discussing changes to the article, I believe that the version protected is defensible and offers a far better starting point than any of the recent reverted changes. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:43, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

The controversy about Caster Semenya is not that easy to summarise, but multiple medical reliable sources suggest that 5-alpha-reductase deficiency (which Caster Semenya has, again, according to reliable sources) is preferentially assigned male at birth. Moreover, the first sentence of the Misplaced Pages article on the same clearly states 'Individuals with 5-ARD are born with male gonads, including testicles and Wolffian structures.'

The word hermaphrodite is not appropriate, but the fact that Caster Semenya has testes rather than ovaries is fundamental in that testes is what produce the large volume of testosterone in men, as opposed to the much smaller volume of testosterone in women, and it is this testosterone that results in large sporting performance differences between males and females post-puberty.

It is not appropriate to say 'Caster Semenya is a man', but the current article is mystifying and obfuscatory in that whereas Caster Semenya has lost a case to compete without suppressing testosterone to the levels that a male-to-female transgender person would have to comply to, the article uses weasel phrases like 'cisgender woman'. Stating 'Caster Semenya is a woman' is not particularly meaningful or informative in a sporting context if that statement has no meaning beyond 'Caster Semenya states that Caster Semenya is a woman'. Even if the statement 'Caster Semenya is a woman' is true, Caster Semenya is in a different category of woman to the overwhelming majority of other athletes competing in female athletics, in that there are rules that exclusively apply to people competing as women who have testes. These rules do not apply to women with PCOS, or ovarian tumours.

They apply, and this is could not be more clear:

"individuals who are:

legally female (or intersex) and

who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have:

male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX)

testes not ovaries

circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and

the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’)."

While we cannot say that these individuals are men necessarily, as by definition they have a DSD, which means that they do not have normal male sexual biology (nor indeed normal female sexual biology), however the words there are clear that these athletes have biological characteristics central to sporting performance that are in the male category rather than the female category.

The current article uses other weasel words such as 'naturally elevated' - they are not 'naturally elevated' but rather normal for people with testes. It does not make sense to describe normally functioning testes as 'naturally elevated'. Some people with testes cannot process testosterone, and they will develop a normal female phenotype, i.e. CAIS, but World Athletics specifically excludes that. These are rules that apply to 'individuals with testes not ovaries, who have normal male testosterone levels, and can use that testosterone in their bodies'.

The appearance or form of external genitalia is not material to sporting performance, but the presence or absence of testes is fundamental. Sumbuddi (talk) 21:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

A Misplaced Pages biography article is not based on our own opinions or even expertise as editors, but entirely on details written in reliable secondary sources which have a high reputation for being accurate in the relevant field and that are directly relevant to the subject of the article. All claims of fact need to be always fully supported with citations from these secondary sources. It simply does not matter if you know better, however well written or argued, editors' original ideas, interpretations, and research are not appropriate here. ~ BOD ~ 23:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what that is supposed to be a reply to. Sumbuddi (talk) 05:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

The keyword is in the first sentence of your response; "suggest" - you need a little more than conjecture in a BLP, especially when it comes to non-public personal medical information - Alison 05:37, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you read beyond the first sentence, which I do not refer to in the rest of my reply. The rules do not apply to people without testes. This is not a 'suggestion', it is a concrete fact. Sumbuddi (talk) 07:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I read the whole thing, and find it irrelevant to the article. It's meaningless to say that "multiple medical reliable sources suggest that 5-alpha-reductase deficiency (which Caster Semenya has, again, according to reliable sources) is preferentially assigned male at birth" is "a concrete fact", since "preferentially assigned" is about cultural practices, and Semenya was in fact assigned female at birth. As for "The rules do not apply to people without testes", we don't know whether Semenya has testes. It seems that you're making an argument she must (among other arguments you're making), but that's WP:Synth which is not allowed. I would also note that a) your argument is circular since the "rules" you quote include "testes not ovaries" as one of the conditions, so you can't conclude that she has testes from those "rules", b) the article is about the person Caster Semenya, not about "sporting performance" and Misplaced Pages is not "a sporting context", and c) "weasel words" has a meaning at WP, and 'naturally elevated' does not qualify. "It does not make sense to describe normally functioning testes as 'naturally elevated'" -- perhaps not, but we don't know that she has "normally functioning testes", and it does make sense to describe "an intersex woman, assigned female at birth" that way, with three citations and "elevated testosterone levels" linked to Hyperandrogenism. This is not weaseling, but rather a good faith effort to thread a needle through a complex set of facts that does not include Semenya having testes. If we had reliable sources stating that, rather than editors inferring it, then the article could be written differently. -- Jibal (talk) 22:34, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

It would not be WP:SYNTH to say that she has 5-ARD, and then describe what 5-ARD means (e.g. including internal testes if we'd like). But, I'm not sure if it even is confirmed that Semenya has that though, the only source I can really find that says it definitively is this Guardian article: . Though, for the new IAAF rules to apply to her she would indeed have to have testes, but I'm not sure we should state that explicitly unless reliable sources do. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 05:05, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

"I'm not sure we should state that explicitly unless reliable sources do." -- um, yes; doing so would be WP:SYNTH. Again, "If we had reliable sources stating that, rather than editors inferring it, then the article could be written differently." -- Jibal (talk) 21:23, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Coverage of Joanna Jóźwik's comments

Coverage of Joanna Jóźwik's alleged comments was recently removed and then reinstated. No reason was given for the removal, and the reinstatement was done for that reason, which was perfectly fair and reasonable. That said, I think I can see a possible argument for not including the comments so I thought we should discuss it. Of the two sources, the Independent is careful not to absolutely attribute the alleged comments to Jóźwik saying "appeared to controversially claim" while the Guardian is less cautious. The alleged comments themselves do not seem to specifically target Semenya and read as a more general expression of racist white entitlement that dismisses the achievement of all three of the black athletes who beat her equally. If there is any doubt at all that Jóźwik really did say those things then we should either make it clear that they are alleged comments, or else avoid including them completely, as they make her sound absolutely awful. It seems to me that if these comments should be covered at all they would best be covered in the article about Jóźwik, where they are covered in less detail than they are here. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:20, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I think it's okay, here are some extra sources if you're worried about WP:V issues/her not having actually stated that: . Regarding the placement in this section, it seems that sources do connect Semenya to the controversial statements made by the other runners, both regarding hyperandrogenism and race. Lynsey Sharp's comments were also about all three of the competitors above her, as they applied equally to Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui (silver and bronze medallists in that race) as well. It seems both Sharp's and Jóźwik's comments both received enough coverage in connection with Semenya and make sense to include. Regarding Joanna Jóźwik's article, I mean they're mentioned over there, but it's a tiny article – probably not too much could be said about it without making that one incident dominate her entire page. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 21:26, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

XY Chromosomes - no evidence

I can’t find any independent evidence for this. It seems to be an assumption that some journalists have made and shared.

I believe it is an example of the so-called “Misplaced Pages effect” of circular reporting.

It’s not something that Caster Semenya has openly shared and so should be removed under BLP. 62.250.139.134 (talk) 14:58, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

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