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Turner syndrome and XXX syndrome as intersex

Equivamp you claimed that Turner syndrome and XXX syndrome are considered intersex by the World Health Organization.

Do you have any sources for such a claim?

Also has stated Turner Syndrome and XXX syndrome aren’t intersex.

Also according to Intersex is Intersex, in biology, an organism having physical characteristics intermediate between a true male and a true female of its species. Individuals with Turner syndrome and XXX syndrome (or at least a majority of them) don’t have both sex characteristics.

I like I believe you are confused on the subject.CycoMa (talk) 00:54, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Also the source cited for that sentence didn’t say these were intersex. So calling them intersex is technically original research.CycoMa (talk) 00:55, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Might I direct you to the sources and discussion on the article Disorders of sex development? If that doesn't explain it for you, here is a source discussing the history of Turner syndrome and Klinefelter's being classified as intersex. As far back as the 60s, the classification of Turner syndrome as intersex was ubiquitous; the controversy over whether to regard it such much more recent.

As for sources of the WHO equating DSD and intersex, one may recall the controversy over just that wrt the ICD-11.

Per BRD, I ask that you self-revert to the WP:STATUSQUO text. --Equivamp - talk 01:26, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Equivamp also I recommend you read Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source.CycoMa (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I recommend you learn to read and comprehend the comments of the people you're trying to talk to, and also how to properly format and order talk page comments. --Equivamp -

talk 02:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

For the record I placed this comment right so I can respond to your statement about the DSD article. Also I understand what y’all are trying to say, I’m just trying to take me time and not rush anything.CycoMa (talk) 03:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

You claimed both XXX syndrome and Turner syndrome are considered intersex to WHO. And I don’t see any mentions of that source saying WHO thinks TS or XXX syndrome are intersex.CycoMa (talk) 01:32, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Wow, way to ignore my entire comment, dude. --Equivamp - talk 01:34, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Your own source stated that there is no consensus on what intersex is as well.CycoMa (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Equivamp you don’t have to join this discussion and don’t I wouldn’t touch the article until other editors are okay with this. But, didn’t you say Turner syndrome being intersex has some controversy? Didn’t WP:VOICE say not to treat Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts.

So shouldn’t we fix up this article to mention there is controversy over classification of intersex? Or does it depend on how controversial the subject is?CycoMa (talk) 22:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@CycoMa: At this point I'm no longer certain what the contested text even says nor what you want it to say. But no, this article should not be used as a WP:COATRACK for discussion of the classification of certain conditions as intersex conditions. --Equivamp - talk 01:32, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@Equivamp: my point was that I don’t think it’s appropriate for this article to mention that Turner or XXX syndrome are intersex.

One, as you have stated there is indeed controversy over them being classified as such. Unless Turner syndrome or XXX syndrome are widely accepted classified as intersex, calling them such is inappropriate here.

Second, those conditions don’t even fit the definition I presented at the top of this discussion. Don’t get me wrong the source you presented is indeed reliable but, it doesn’t say how many clinicians or scholars classify Turner syndrome are intersex.

Plus the article on male mentions XX males but doesn’t mention intersex.CycoMa (talk) 01:59, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

-sche can you please join in on the discussion so we can reach consensus.CycoMa (talk) 02:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I've added two sources which address the initial concern about the existing sources not calling Turner syndrome intersex. I've also now broken the sentence into two sentences to address the concern about SNYTH. (By doing so, I've also partially reverted the bold edit that dropped "intersex".) -sche (talk) 02:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay that fixes it up a bit. However, changing it to that makes the mention of intersex a little unrelated.

Also I’m not entirely sure the source you presented has knowledge on the topic from a medical (or at least with the more physical health) or a biological perspective.CycoMa (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

But, anyway I don’t feel y’all are truly understanding why arguments.CycoMa (talk) 23:15, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

women

why? 83.171.3.16 (talk) 07:49, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Definition of female

See Talk:Woman#Definition_of_a_woman for question about how to define woman and female. --MGA73 (talk) 19:39, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Should this article be disambiguated?

On the woman article talk page, there has been significant controversy regarding the lede and defining woman as "an adult female human". That lede links to this article which is entirely about biological sex, while the word "female" in that definition of woman often refers to gender and is meant to be gender-inclusive. It might be appropriate to disambiguate this article so that it links to Adult Female (Gender), Child Female (Gender) and Female. I'm wondering what the potential issues would be with this or if it would be WP:UNDUE. The void century (talk) 22:45, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, I see there's already a disambiguation, but I'm suggesting having the main article be a disambiguation and this article be renamed Female (Sex) The void century (talk) 22:50, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

It is indeed UNDUE because the vast majority of the sources on "female" are about the sex, usually not even being about humans but other living things. The gender meaning is still covered here, even in the lead. And "adult female" and "child female" are the same gender. Crossroads 03:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok so you're saying "adult female" and "child female" are the same gender, but Female is too heavily focused on sex in the sources to rationalize disambiguating, yet there is an obvious distinction between female article (biological sex) and Woman and Girl (female gender). If all that is true, then one or more of the following should probably happen:

1. woman and girl (as well as man and boy) should be combined into one Female (gender) article to make it clear that's the distinction wikipedia has decided to follow between Woman and Female.

2. Woman lede (and girl, man, boy) should be edited to include "Woman (also known as Female)".

3. Woman (and girl, man, boy) should be edited to unlink from female in its lead, but then have an additional line "For biological sex, see female" like many articles that have multiple meanings.

4. The lede of woman (and girl, man, boy) should edit their ledes to clarify that woman (the adult female gender) is a complex cultural concept that has multiple meanings and isn't simply an "adult female human".

Any of the above changes would clarify the intention of wikipedia in separating woman (adult female gender) and female (biology) The void century (talk) 14:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

The thing is, the sources on these topics do not separate "woman" as a term for gender and "female" as a term for biology. Even the sources on the Sex and gender distinction fail to do so consistently. I know this leaves us with an awkward Venn diagram of article content, but Misplaced Pages is supposed to follow rather than lead its sources.

The one of your proposals that I do find helpful is 3, which does a better job of articulating the relevance of Female to the Woman article than does the current (problematic) text. Newimpartial (talk) 15:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree about #3 and I think it would be a good compromise solution. The void century (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

That's not how we do inline links - we don't interrupt text with "see other article" phrases like that. Implying that "woman" has nothing to do with biological sex is biased text and a major change in meaning. And the "female" article we are on here mentions both meanings in its lead. This is simply not a problem, and discussion on the same issue should not be split between multiple pages. Crossroads 23:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Looking through the archives of talk:woman, female article being the problem is brought up often among editors who don't want to change the lede of woman. That seems like a rationale to split the discussion and decide on editing either the female article (which won't happen via the woman talk page) or the woman article.

On your point about this article mentioning the "gender" meaning, it feels like an afterthought, since it's the last line of the lead. That has multiple implications for readers, but a major one is it doesn't show up on page previews. If the gender line was moved immediately after the lede sentence so it showed up on previews, that would make the lede of woman less of a problem, but that's probably not going to happen because it would give the line WP:UNDUE in this article. Thus the issue stands that the lede of woman gives a false impression of what a woman is, and I agree that this discussion should be on woman.

My intention is not to imply that "woman" has nothing to do with biological sex. My intention is to create WP:BALANCE between biological sex and gender in the meaning of woman. I certainly respect your perspective as someone who has been involved with this discussion much longer than I have, but unlinking female seems to be the idea with the most support. That doesn't mean we need to add the line "For biological sex, see female." (though it sounds like unlinking has already been voted on in the past, so it's very possible that consensus hasn't changed).

I hear you that the lede of the woman page reflects the most common definition found in dictionaries. I agree that dictionaries are a reliable source for the common usage of a word, but they are not the only source and don't negate many decades of scholarship in fields like psychology, sociology, gender studies, etc. Nor do they negate social developments that have expanded the meaning of the word, such that major health organizations like WHO recognize the importance of both gender and biological sex.

In WP:UNDUE: "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public." Dictionaries, for the most part, represent common usage of a word, not necessarily the consensus among scholars and other reliable sources. The importance of gender is well established and accepted fact based on the sources cited in practically every article on wikipedia that cover gender-related topics, such as Gender, Sex and Gender Distinction, Gender Expression, Gender Identity. These articles are not WP:FRINGE theories, they are presented as fact, and so the question becomes, how much weight should Gender have in a lede of Woman? I think it should at least be made clear that the concept of Woman involves both biological sex and gender. The void century (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi again Tvc. Do note that except in a handful of circumstances, the Misplaced Pages community rarely prefers decisions for the sheer virtue of being a good compromise between opposing editorial viewpoints. Our goal is reflecting consensus and adhering to the Five Pillars (themselves the result of consensus). If we choose the middle ground every time, we would have a half-factual, half-pseudoscientific, half-racist, half-encyclopedia.

That said, several editors (including myself) have now spoken favorably of removing the bluelink to this article in the definition at Woman, as it fails to fully capture what is meant by female in adult female human (not just the sex which typically produces ova, but also the gender typically associated with it), and is therefore misleading. It may be worthwhile to revisit that as its own discussion at Talk:Woman.

The status-quo view is (as Crossroads said) that this article's scant reference to gender in humans makes this non-problematic. I do agree with him that a hatnote would be a much more disruptive way of putting it. I'm not fully satisfied by the current text there either, but I don't think it actively de-legitimizes transfeminism either. RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk · contribs) 01:04, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

There's nothing in policies or guidelines that says that a point in a lead has to show up in the preview, or that privileges the preview in any way. Regarding the rest, I won't comment further on that here to save space and because it largely concerns the other article. Crossroads 22:57, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Ledes are privileged in the rules, and previews generally display ledes, so my argument is an extension of that. And I don't think there's a rule saying that we shouldn't consider something important when there's a good argument for it. That's kind of the intention of WP:IAR. AFAIK, previews didn't exist when many of the rules were written. The void century (talk) 20:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal that this should be a disambiguation page. In current usage "female" and "woman" both may refer to the gender identity that is the opposite of male; see for example Merriam-Webster's definition of "female". There is no evidence that the " that produces ova" is even the most common definition of "female". When applied to humans the term typically primarily refers to those who are women or girls in a social sense. --Amanda A. Brant (talk) 20:44, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Recent change to lead sentence

Newimpartial, please follow NOCON when making edits. The recent change to the article lead gives undue weight to the second of seven possible definitions listed by MW . It is not clear that this particular definition is shared by other prominent dictionaries thus giving it this much weight in the opening sentence of the article is UNDUE. Please self revert and wait for consensus to make this change. Pinging @Mathglot and Amanda A. Brant: as involved editors. Springee (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

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