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Title

Probably this should be moved to something like List of monuments to Nazi collaborators in Canada or similar. The current title implies these were erected by Nazis rather than by diaspora etc. Also the list currently includes those dedicated to Nazi collaborators rather than Nazis (that is, Germans of the Nazi party). Mellk (talk) 06:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I thought the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) were an armed force of Nazis? CT55555 (talk) 07:07, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes it was an SS division, though I would imagine it would fall under Nazi collaborationism. Maybe someone else will know for sure the difference in semantics, though it is probably more accurate than "Nazi monument". Regards. Mellk (talk) 07:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

The reliable sources say:

1. "Canada Has a Nazi Monument Problem" https://jacobin.com/2022/11/roman-shukhevych-monument-canada-nazi-ukrainian-ultranationalism
2. "Canada’s Nazi Monuments" https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canada-nazi-monuments-antisemitism/

I have defined this to also include Nazi collaborators, but two of the monument are to the SS, so as you note, absolutely Nazis. So I think I'm faithfully calling them what the reliable sources call them and I think it's accurate.

I could have called it List of Nazi Monuments and Monuments to Nazi collaborators in Canada but that seems unwieldy and probably makes it seems like the collaboration occurred in Canada, so I think the status quo is best. CT55555 (talk) 14:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Both also then specify monuments to Nazi collaborators. They are also considered biased sources per RSP so such language especially in the headline is not surprising (see also WP:HEADLINE) Mellk (talk) 17:10, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm also biased against Nazis, but still trying (and I hope succeeding) to write this in a fair manner. But there are literally monuments to the SS. I think we're on safe territory calling the Schutzstaffel Nazis. A monument to the SS is a monument to Nazis, what ever anyones bias. Right? CT55555 (talk) 17:17, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Specifically it is to a division made up of Ukrainian collaborators, no? I am just wondering if it would be more accurate. Mellk (talk) 17:38, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm using the wikipedia article as the source, which is usually a bad idea, but I doubt major inaccuracies would be up on the article. Let's assume it's accurate: It was a German SS battalion. It fought in World War II. It did have a lot of Ukrainians who joined it. It is identified very clearly at 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) as a Nazi SS division. I really think we're not in controversial territory here to call this a Nazi monument. CT55555 (talk) 17:42, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Roman Shukhevych statue

The Roman Shukhevych statue (Edmonton) section was just blanked by an editor who said it was out of scope. As a Nazi collaborator, it is in scope. I think it should stay. CT55555 (talk) 14:30, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@CT55555 See --> - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:46, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Roman Shukhevych was supreme commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army which guess what - fought against the Nazis. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:16, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Let's avoid the original research and write articles based on verifiable information please. CT55555 (talk) 18:18, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

The Online Encyclopedia of Ukraine is hosted and maintained by the University of Alberta - a reliable source. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 18:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Can you please be a lot more specific? It seems you've been here for years, so I think you know that you cannot just make vague claims, especially in the context of everything in the article being well cited and the article about Roman Shukhevych being really clear and well cited. You are testing the limits of assuming good faith here to not point to something specific when it is so much at odds with reliable sources. CT55555 (talk) 18:27, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I was very specific in the first time. Not sure where you get your information from (that I have been here for years). -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:06, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I assumed from your first user name User:Gifnk dlm 2020 that you joined in 2020. I see I am in error. Nonetheless, you've been here over a year. You should know that we need reliable sources. Roman Shukhevych is well cited and notes Shukhevych's Nazi collaborations. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/ seems not like a strong sourcey in this context. Indeed I see it is hosted by a university, but I don't see any statements about editorial oversight or anything like that. I also note that the article you linked was quite light on anything to do with Nazis with regards to the UIA and the Shukhevych article is notably silent on anything to do with Nazis or Germany (neither word appears once), which is really strange considering this context. It's hardly therefore refuting what is said in this article. CT55555 (talk) 19:31, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@CT55555 Just a quick note. The Encyclopedia of Ukraine is not an RS for this topic area. The chief editor was Volodymyr Kubiyovich, a major Nazi collaborator during WW2. We should not reference anything that relates to Ukraine and ww2 using that publication. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:30, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@CT55555 As an example - this is what Encyclopedia of Ukraine says about Roman Shukhevych. Not a single word about him committing atrocities etc. This is not a RS. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

@CT55555 This is what Kubijovyč writes about himself in the Encyclopedia of Ukraine:

... in 1943 (He) took part in organizing the Division Galizien. In his role as head of the UCC, Kubijovyč revealed his exceptional ability as an organizer and statesman. From their inception he was the chief editor of Entsyklopediia ukraïnoznavstva (Encyclopedia of Ukraine, 1949–95), Ukraine: A Concise Encyclopaedia (2 vols, 1963, 1971), and Encyclopedia of Ukraine - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:46, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Merge

I guess this supposed to be a page List of memorials to Ukrainian Nazi collaborators in Canada. Obviously, Unnamed Alberta–BC mountain (formerly Mount Petain) does not belong to such list because that's a mountain, not a memorial. More importantly, I think such materials should be merged to page Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany. This might be also merged to Neo-Nazism in Canada, however I am not sure cited sources say that having such memorials is Neo-Nazism. Perhaps some of them do? My very best wishes (talk) 00:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The memorials were made after the collaboration, so that doesn't seem like a topic that covers this. The point about the mountain is well made, but the implication about making a point is incorrect and at odds with any assumption of good faith. It shouldn't matter, but I think I have a well established track record of producing encyclopaedic articles and just because this one deals with a difficult issue does not make it disruptive. I think anyone trying to push the point you are suggesting would not have included all the reports about vandalism and complaints. CT55555 (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I was in a process of editing my comment when you posted. "The memorials were made after the collaboration". That does not matter. It is common to provide info about memorials dedicated to an event (or a person) in an article about the event (or the person). My very best wishes (talk) 01:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Second reply (thanks for the AGF that was edited back in). I did try to figure out if this was Neo-Nazism, but my assessment is that it's not neo/new, it's traditional/old. It's supporters of the SS, the original Nazis.

Obviously you first thought I was bring disruptive. Having moved on, can you tell me why this ought to be merged, it's a notable topic, that satisfied WP:GNG, with reliable sources giving significant coverage. Indeed it's a difficult topic, a polarising one, but that's not a reason to delete or merge content. CT55555 (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Actually My very best wishes has a point here CT55555. We might consider merging it, but I’m not sure about it yet. I’ll give it some thought later. - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:27, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Usually people discuss where to merge things after first making an argument about the why there is a need to move. It's not normal to just jump in with merge location suggestions without first justifying why something should be merged. It's bewildering to me that no argument has first been made about justification to move/delete/merge which would usually be something like not meeting WP:GNG. CT55555 (talk) 01:30, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Got it 👍 - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, this list includes just two items: (a) St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery, or more precisely, Monument to the Glory of the UPA, and (b) bust to Roman Shukhevych, one of UPA leaders (in Edmonton). There is nothing else really. Looking at this, please see first photo and text. “Nazi Monument 14th Waffen SS” is not name of the monument, but vandalism. The actual name of the monument is "For those who fought for Ukraine’s Freedom." That is not sufficient for creating a separate list. My very best wishes (talk) 01:35, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

A list of two is indeed too short for a list article. But there are three. I see why you deleted one, the source was not clear (it just quotes opposing views). Here is a better source:

The monument is located near a cenotaph in Edmonton’s St. Michael’s Cemetery which is dedicated to the veterans of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS i.e. Jacobin (magazine) states that it is a SS memorial CT55555 (talk) 01:48, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The entire cemetery with Nazi collaborators? You need something better than a single ref in Jacobin (magazine), which is a biased "socialist" source. Let's check it: . It does not say such a thing. Neither does this: , unless I am missing something. My very best wishes (talk) 01:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The CTV source quotes a Jewish group who called it a SS statue, "The second is a memorial to the 'freedom fighters' of the SS’ 14th Waffen Division, who carried out massacres of women and children,” the FSWC said." You can say the Jewish group is probably biased against Nazis (I am too and I think most of wikipedia is). The way I see it the news quotes opposing views. The analysis piece actually names it as a SS monument. I don't think any source states clearly anything about the whole cemetery, we're taking about the monument in the cemetery. Jacobin is reliable and biased left of centre. I don't think being baised towards left of centre means statements about nazi statues should be disregarded, it's not like there is a centrist or right wing news/magazine that is refuting it's a nazi statue. Nobody is refuting it's a nazi statue other than the group who built it. CT55555 (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Further to that, your justification to delete this hinges on the list being of two, but it was of four until you deleted two, so this does seem a lot like a retroactive justification to delete. You said it should be merged and then gave a justification that was only true because you made it so. This does not seem like a fair chain of events. CT55555 (talk) 02:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

This is just an opinion by a Jewish activist who said it. You can not say it in WP voice (as you do ) "St. Michael’s Cemetery in Edmonton has a monument to the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS". How come if it has not? I am sure there are some former Nazi buried at the cemetery (along with a lot of other people!), but is it written anywhere on the memorial "This is a monument to the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS"? No, this is something vandals wrote on the memorial, is not it? Let's not follow these vandals in WP. And again, that would be just two items for the list because this is the place where bust to Shushkevich (item 2) is located. My very best wishes (talk) 02:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying the Jacobin piece is an opinion piece? I don't think it is. Do you know his religion? I don't. CBC (and other sources) describe him as a historian. https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/author/taylor-c-noakes-1.4775569

A vandal or vandals did write that, but that's besides the point. The reliable source said it, that's the key thing here. I don't know how you can discount that.

The bust is near, it's the same city, but not the same location. One is a cemetery, the other a youth centre. CT55555 (talk) 02:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, an opinion can be cited (of course!), but it needs to be cited with an attribution, i.e. "According to , "...". My very best wishes (talk) 02:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Why are you saying it is an opinion? Please answer the question: do you think the Jacobin piece is an opinion piece? And if so, why? You can't just discount reliable sources as opinions without good reason, nothing would stop anyone discounting any news items as the opinion of the journalist if that was how this worked. CT55555 (talk) 02:36, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I mean Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources, one of which is Jacobian. The author of the piece in Jacobian is not a professional historian, but a freelancer journalist. Hence, I think the opinion by a Jewish organization has more weight here. What is the name of this organization? My very best wishes (talk) 02:42, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center said the above (in the CTV source that you deleted). I note again that the Jacobin writer/author is indeed a historian, according to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (see above). CT55555 (talk) 02:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

In an attempt to reach consensus, I've made the edits that I think you are implying are needed. CT55555 (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

OK. I fixed a few things. But I still think this page should be either merged or renamed to List of Ukrainian Insurgent Army monuments in Canada. That would be a more precise/adequate title. My very best wishes (talk) 03:32, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

You have overstepped here, noting the lack of consensus. You moved it to an article header that makes no sense, as the first one is a monument to the SS, not the UIA. I think you know that Misplaced Pages works on consensus and I hope it is clear why I have reverted this.

If we cannot reach consensus here (give it a little time, let others join in) there are places to discuss moves. CT55555 (talk) 03:53, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Speaking on the example #1, i.e. a stone cenotaph located in Oakville in the St. Volodymyr Ukrainian Cemetery (see photo here), this seems to be exactly as example #3, i.e. the actual text at the memorial reads like "To fighters for the freedom of Ukraine", etc. while the vandals wrote "“Nazi war monument”. Sure, you can make make new section "Renaming" and discuss. My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

You are adding your own analysis. I think I understand what you are trying to do, which appears to be write this article in a way that pleases more people and is sympathetic to the complexity here. And while that is nice, it's not our job as editors. Our job is to faithfully state what the reliable sources say. You can start a rename section if you want, and it should include the justification for it. I am not going to start a section on renaming it as I have no idea why you want to rename it, beyond my assumptions around kindness above.

I think it is quite normal for wikipedia to value what independent sources say about something more than what the source itself says. Like we don't quote books, we write what people say about them.

We don't quote people, we write what reliable sources say about them. Please try to apply that normal lens to this situation. CT55555 (talk) 04:07, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course the article you linked above also doesn't show the whole thing, but does actually say that it is "a monument commemorating a Nazi SS division". CT55555 (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Let's separate opinions and facts. Fact #1. It is written "Those who died for the freedom of Ukraine" on the memorial. One can check it by looking at provided photo. Fact #2. All or some of the buried people were former fighters of Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Opinion: "these fighters were Nazi". My very best wishes (talk) 04:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

What you said above sounds logical, but is not how Misplaced Pages works. There is the small detail of the photo not capturing everything, but the much more important concept in Misplaced Pages whereby we focus on what independent sources say about things, not what primary sources say themselves. People who do bad things tend to write about them through a less-than-idependent lens. This is a basic concept of this project that we favour secondary sources. CT55555 (talk) 04:27, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

No one suggests to exclude well sourced opinions. But they can not be presented as a fact in WP voice.My very best wishes (talk) 04:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Secondary sources is not synonymous with opinion. CT55555 (talk) 04:36, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

We are not on a path to reaching consensus here. I suggest we pause, to give space to let others jump in. If that doesn't happen, we can ping some relevant projects, probably the relevant team at military history. CT55555 (talk) 04:37, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

A secondary source can describe facts, be an opinion, whatever. I am only saying that the monuments in this list are not monuments to Nazi (that is a matter of opinion), but monuments to members of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (that is a matter of fact). My very best wishes (talk) 04:42, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

- GizzyCatBella🍁 04:49, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

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