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Peer review

To anyone kind enough to watch this page or who otherwise happens to see this, I have W. Somerset Maugham up for peer review, with a view to taking him to FAC. Suggestions for improvements will be gratefully received on the peer review page – Tim riley talk 10:36, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Bernard Levin

Hi, about Bernard Levin, wanted to ask you about the issues you have with this edit , as there is no WP:CITEVAR violation anymore, and the MOS:DATES and MOS:ORDER fixes were re-added; if you just have a problem with me reverting your edit, then please revert your last edit yourself. Saksapoiss (talk) 21:18, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

No objection to your other edits - ulc and so on - but please refrain from persistent WP:CITEVAR violations: they are unhelpful and discourteous as well as contrary to Misplaced Pages's rules. As your other alterations, they seem in line with MoS guidelines, and if so, fine. The citations for footnotes might conceivably be better in the form you propose (the existing version goes back some years) but you must propose such changes on the article talk page and not just impose them unilaterally. Tim riley talk 21:29, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Your "Thank" message in response to the above is much appreciated. Tim riley talk 08:07, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Vaughan Williams

I suspect that "Sources" was mislabeled and should be "Further reading." Not one of the listed "sources" has a page number; it seems more like a bibliography. More important is that we include a major new biography of Vaughan Williams. We have three choices: (1) Revert your reversion so that the new book is listed, (2) Change "Sources" to "Further reading" and add the new book, or (3) create a "Further reading" section solely for the new book. Do you have a preference? Maurice Magnus (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

1. "Sources" was not mislabelled. It is a list of books used as sources, which is why it is called Sources. There is a very simple reason why none of the sources listed has a page number: the page numbers are in the References section; there are e.g. more than twenty references to Kennedy's 1980 book. How would WP:V be satisfied if we put " pages 19, 43, 44, 74, 37–38, 76, 85, 114, 139, 179, 218, 221, 224, 254, 268, 276, 412–416 415, 420, 421, 427, 428, 431 and 432" after the entry for that book in Sources?
2. Before considering adding a Further reading section you should read Misplaced Pages:Further reading. If you contend that your favoured book contains "additional and more detailed coverage of the subject" over and above that in the existing sources, please add a section to the article talk page to the effect that your book says x, y or z, not mentioned in earlier sources. If you can't identify anything important of that nature, there is no pretext for adding a Further reading section. If there is anything new of importance, please mention it on the talk page and we can adjust the article accordingly. – Tim riley talk 13:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

   I agree about your first point. As for your second point, I have not read Saylor's book, but the review to which I linked, which is by a leading music critic Tim Page (music critic), states, "Now Eric Saylor, a professor of music at Drake University, has published a valuable study of Vaughan Williams’s long life and multifarious work, one that will serve both the novice listener and the scholar. It is fair-minded and wide-ranging, both easy to read and unusually weighty...." Page concludes (in an exceedingly trite sentence), "Mr. Saylor’s book may be recommended to anybody in search of information about this admirable man and creator."

   This establishes, I think, that knowing of the existence of this book would be useful to readers of Misplaced Pages's entry on Vaughan Williams, and I will therefore create a "Further reading" section for it. I hope you will agree that informing readers of the existence of this book is more important than correctly applying Misplaced Pages's rules that prescribe where and when books may be listed (if I am applying them incorrectly). If you don't, then do what you want, and I will drop the matter. Maurice Magnus (talk) 14:28, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Tim riley – this FA sets up the references, notes and sources correctly, even elegantly. Moreover, if you want to discuss the improvement of a particular article, you should do it at that article's Talk page so that everyone interested in the article can see the discussion. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:27, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for that, Ssilvers. I think I have set out clearly and fairly what criteria need to be satisfied for a Further reading section to be added. If they are not (and nothing above suggests that they will be) we can delete any unjustifed attempt at doing so, but you're right − the article talk page is the place for this discussion. Tim riley talk 14:37, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Somerset Maugham, again

After a productive peer review I have W. Somerset Maugham's article up for WP:FAC. If anyone who watches this page or otherwise chances to see these words cares to look in at the FAC review page it will be esteemed a favour. Tim riley talk 20:26, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

ITMA

I didn’t know you cared! With your superb work on ‘conventional’ entertainment I almost missed your recent FA . With a sudden flash of inspiration starting in late December last year I vastly improved and expanded British sitcom, aided and abetted by excellent contribs from Philip Cross although we were not working as team and were barely aware of each other’s work. It’s not FA or even GA material but it was a lot of hard work but fun to do. Naturally ITMA gets a mention. Britcom is a history of a genre of TV humor rather than an anthology, but it demonstrates what makes our UK humour so special. If you are of my generation (and I think you are) you might enjoy the nostalgia evoked by reading it. Favorite armchair, a bottle of well matured Gigondas… Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:06, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I shall go and read that article. No Gigondas to hand, but I have a nice plump Juliénas on the go. Tim riley talk 17:19, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, a Beaujolly! Don't hesitate to tell me if the quality of the Britcom article makes you cough and splutter. I hate wasting good wine. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:11, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Didn't know the crus, and knowing that you're not likely to be drinking Château Bag-in-a-box Nouveau from the Co-oP, I looked it up. Liked what I saw and went and bought a bottle in Udon. Arm and a leg at twenty-four quid but went down very well with a lamb couscous so I wrote the missing article. Easier to get here in Thailand than my favourite CDR, the meaty three neighbours Vacqueyras, Gigondas, and Cairanne. Not dissimilar in a way to the Juliénas. Thanks for the tip. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:38, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I say, Kudpung! That's a mightily impressive article to have put together in next to no time. I'm sorry to say it induced me to open another bottle of the stuff. As to the British sitcom article, it brought many a smile to my septuagenarian eke. Tim riley talk 18:48, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's pretty good stuff. I hope you can afford it if it costs anything like it does here! No great performance really, I've written lots of Misplaced Pages articles about wine. I took some cues from the fr.Wiki effort and borrowed their Commons images. Nothing that would warrant an attrib as a translation though, but out of courtesy I did give them a mention on the tp. Glad you liked the Britcom. A rambling stroll through some of the funniest parts of UK culture when we postwar born Brits still had something to laugh about, but not one of my best efforts. Since the turn of the century overzealous PC stymies anything that could stimulate the slightest snigger. Instead, comedy is now studded with unfunny four-letter words that would give Ms Whitehouse and even Johnny Speight a couple of turns in their graves; there's not been any laugh-out-loud telly to wax lyrical about and that's where I'll leave the article. And I'll let you get on with your work. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

David Meyer

Hi Tim, hope you're well! Can you find anything on David Meyer for his London stage work, this lists a few performances at the White Bear and Aldwych Theatres but the source looks like a Wiki and not reliable. Charles Matthews and User:7&6=thirteen might also find something. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

What ho! I'm replying on your user talk page, as there's a fair bit of text for you to consider. In my book there is no doubt of the notability of someone who directs an opera conducted by Richard Hickox. Tim riley talk 10:59, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

If there's anything left that you feel should be added feel free to add it. His brother Anthony Meyer was deleted, but I redirected the article. I could have probably found enough for a start class article but he seems to be less notable then his brother. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:01, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

1899 United States Senate election in Pennsylvania

If you have some time, could you look at the above, now at FAC? Despite the mundane title, it's a most interesting story. Wehwalt (talk) 20:59, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

It will be my privilege and pleasure. In fact, having finished dinner, I shall look in now. Tim riley talk 21:00, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

A rare distinction

		The Featured Article Medal
		By the authority vested in me by myself it gives me great pleasure to present you with this special, very exclusive award created just for we few, we happy few, this band of brothers, who have shed sweat, tears and probably blood, in order to be able to proudly claim "I too have taken fifty articles to Featured status". Fifty! Fifty? How did that even happen? Clearly indicative of a wasted youth. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

How very nice! Fifty is a decent haul, but the beloved Brian Boulton contributed a hundred, and computers run out of memory to count how many Wehwalt has clocked up. The rest of us bob along in their wake. Tim riley talk 22:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Congratulations, and the high quality of your quantity speaks much. Wehwalt (talk) 22:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

A half century. Congratulations indeed! KJP1 (talk) 05:10, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Well done Tim, the coverage of English (and French!) music, literature and performance is that much richer for your contributions. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I shall need a larger size in hats! Thank you all for such kind remarks. They are, as I hardly need say, very much appreciated. Tim riley talk 12:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Congratulations on this wonderful milestone and, of course, on your rich contributions to Misplaced Pages beyond the 50+ FAs. Of equal importance is your generous and skillful advice and congenial collaboration, peer reviews, GA reviews, research and other extraordinary assistance that you give to other editors here. You will look good in a 10-gallon hat! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yee haw, y'all. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Promotion of W. Somerset Maugham

Monsieur Pamplemousse moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Monsieur Pamplemousse, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Misplaced Pages). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Misplaced Pages's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Kleuske (talk) 10:46, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Kleuske, if you read the article more carefully you will see that every statement in it is cited to a published source with full bibliographical details given on the page. Kindly undo your unwarranted intervention without delay. You will see from the entries immediately before this that I have been receiving congratulations on my 51st successful FAC - I do know how to write and reference an article. No apology required as long as you undo the damage straight away. Tim riley talk 10:56, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

In the absence of action on your part I have restored the page to its proper state. Please tidy any remnants of your intervention. Tim riley talk 11:13, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I draftified because I could not find any sources independent from the subject, i.e. not references to the book itself, so it fails WP:GNG. I hoped you might rectify that. Congrats on your FACs, but that does not mean WP:GNG does not apply to your writings. I'm very sure you know how to write, but a well written article on a non-notable subject is still in conflict with policy. Also waiting a full 17 minutes does not exactly constitute patience. Strange as it may sound, I do have a life besides Misplaced Pages and obligations to match. But we'll let the community decide.

Ah, yes. I am not about to apologise. Kleuske (talk) 13:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Lastly, Copy&Paste moves are usually frowned upon. An experienced user ought to know that. Kleuske (talk) 13:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Ahem! In an article about a piece of music we say what the score says, quoting bar number; in an article about a play we summarise the action and cite the page numbers of the playscript. In an article about a novel we summarise what the novel says, quoting the page or chapter numbers. By your imbecilic logic every such article would fail GNG, but they don't and neither does this. You want us to say what somebody else says the book says? Duh! As to your hit and run editing, I do not think it proper or colleaguely to make such a drastic and unreasonable change as you made without waiting to see the consequences, but your conception of good manners may not coincide with mine. As to copying and pasting, happily there was no need as I draft in Word and had a copy of the untampered article there. Just as well, as it turns out. Tim riley talk 13:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you bring that up on the appropriate page, without the "imbecilic logic" type of remarks, since that does show your "conception of good manners", not mine. Kleuske (talk) 13:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It would have been another courtesy if you had mentioned that you were nominating the article for deletion. Good luck with that idea. Tim riley talk 15:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The upside is, the independent sources I requested were actually provided, So I'm happy with that outcome. Kleuske (talk) 16:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Kleuske, you simply jumped the gun. Tim was in the middle of putting up the article. If you had just waited a few hours, all this could have been avoided, and so the only real outcome is that you wasted your own, and a lot of other people's time. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Kleuske (talk) 21:46, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Ssilvers, your wise words are wholly ad rem. A short civil note on the article talk page would have been the commonsense and courteous course. A jackbooted trample is seldom necessary or desirable. Tim riley talk 20:19, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I admire your restraint Tim. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Dudley. As Dr Chasuble says, "Charity, my dear Miss Prism, charity! None of us are perfect". Tim riley talk 15:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Arnold Bennett, again

Hi Tim, I'm writing a short note for the Arnold Bennett Society newsletter about the improvements we've been able to make to AB's Misplaced Pages entry (and others that may need to be made), in the course of which I will be mentioning your name. How can I describe you? I'm thinking of something along the lines of 'experienced Misplaced Pages contributor who specialises in early 20th-century writers and composers' - or what would you prefer? Jrsd (talk) 10:03, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

That's fine with me. As always, let me know if I can be of any help. By the bye, if you want to, you can email me by clicking the link on the left of this page.

I'm trying to persuade myself that John Galsworthy's article needs the Riley oar put in, but his life-story is so eye-glazingly dull − unlike those of Bennett, Maugham, Shaw, Walpole, Wodehouse et al − that I can't quite summon the enthusiasm. (And though he was a good writer, he strikes me as v. lucky to have got the OM and the Nobel Prize for Literature.) Tim riley talk 10:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Frivolity from KJP1

Is the game: "Thinking of suitable descriptions for Tim", one anyone can play? KJP1 (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Less of your cheek, my lad! Tim riley talk 10:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

If we are allowed Latin - and as it is Tim, I am sure we are - how about "Tim the Tribulator"? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:30, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

A classical education is not all it's cracked up to be, but I can tell you that Timothy is "God-fearing" in Greek. Away from Latin and Greek, one of you two ruffians has a Celtic name meaning "handsome by birth" and the other has a Hebrew name meaning "snub-nosed". I decline to identify which is which. Tim riley talk 13:44, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

My given name in Biblical Hebrew means "hearkening". Now there is wishful thinking for you!. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:06, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

In appreciation

		The Reviewers Award
		By the authority vested in me by myself it gives me great pleasure to present you with this award in recognition of the thorough, detailed and actionable reviews you have carried out at FAC. This work is very much appreciated. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:33, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

That's very kind! A similar gong, but Grand Cross, should go to you, as a reviewer of the greatest assiduity in between your FAC co-ord duties. Tim riley talk 07:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Hear hear -- for both of these sentiments! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Ian, you are in line for a Grand Cross with oak leaves and knobs on, and quite right, too. At the end of the day, we all do our best. Tim riley talk 13:27, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Prince Octavius of Great Britain/archive1

Hi, @Tim riley! You may have seen my message on Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Prince Octavius of Great Britain/archive1, but just in case you have not, I'd like to apologize for the way I handled your comments regarding the FA nomination. I did not mean to come across as rude and dismissive, but looking back at it, my messages certainly seemed that way. I am so sorry the way I handled that situation. Thank you for your comments! I have reconsidered my previous hesitation and fixed your concerns. I look forward to seeing you around! Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:05, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Apology accepted, naturally. We all get things wrong from time to time. I'll keep an eye open for future FACs from you and will offer what help I can. Tim riley talk 11:34, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Welcome home

I couldn't possibly comment, as doing so (there) may entice the wolves to the door. I hope you had a wonderful time up the Nile, welcome back. Yours truly, Senna Pod 2A02:C7E:2A55:1500:4DF6:503D:BC76:8165 (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Artemy Vedel

This Ukrainian composer has been up for a pre-FA peer review for several weeks now, without any responses. Are you able to take a look for me? Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Cosima Wagner

Yes, an improvement. When there is a run-on sentence consisting of two essentially unrelated thoughts, it should be split into two sentences. In this case, marriage and legacy are essentially unrelated and should be separated. Your grammar looks bad to me, so please explain why it is not. Zaslav (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Please discuss on the article talk page, where any interested editor can say if s/he agrees with you or prefers the version agreed by the main author and the reviewers at PR and FAC. For my own part I am not disposed to debate grammar with someone who imagines "so" is a conjunction in good written English. (See Fowler, current edition, p. 757.) Tim riley talk 08:58, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Good advice; I take this away from you. I am not disposed to debate grammar with someone who is pompously self-righteous but cannot distinguish a run-on sentence (see any elementary writing instruction) and has no self-awareness. Zaslav (talk) 06:58, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

By the way, what WP policy accepts the idea of a "main author"? I recall the principle that no article belongs to anyone. I agree you won't find that in Fowler. Zaslav (talk) 06:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The main author in this case is the late Brian Boulton. He wrote 79.8% of the current text. Some of us who respected him greatly and miss him keep an eye on the 100+ articles he successfully took to FAC. We attempt to fend off (usually) well-meant alterations that are not helpful. We do not quarrel with valid and helpful tweaks, e.g. here. Tim riley talk 09:42, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Pommes boulangère

I bought Delia’s Complete Illustrated for Christmas 1995. We’re still using it and her Potatoes boulangère (p=229) is one of our favourites. All the best, KJP1 (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

I was surprised we had no article on pommes boulangère, and the skimpy affair I ran up this afternoon will just have to do, unless (hint) someone improves it. I love boulangères − so versatile − they go with so many main courses. I'm agnostic about their posher sibling, gratin Dauphinoise: very nice, but I've never found a meat it quite seems to go with. As to Delia, I am an admirer, and to Hell with the snobs who sniff at her − though I think they are latterly almost an extinct species, happily. − Tim riley talk 20:43, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Afterthought: KJ, in your 1995 Delia did she use veg stock? Autres temps, autres mœurs, and all that. Tim riley talk 21:04, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Rather unhelpfully for Delia, she says “stock”. It’s the 1989 BBC Books edition, and the recipe just says “5 fl oz hot stock”. We use chicken, but I guess beef or vegetable would work. I’m with you on Dauphinoise, but J adores it with pork. KJP1 (talk) 22:05, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Pork? Not tried. I'll engage you separately by email on that. Tim riley talk 22:16, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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A Saint-Saëns curiosity for you

Dear Tim, Doubtless you already knew all about his revolutionary chanting in Uruguay (I didn't). Best wishes from an ip, 86.186.94.153 (talk) 17:16, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Excellent stuff, and addressed on Saint-Saëns's talk page. A pleasure to encounter. Tim riley talk 19:56, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Felix of Burgundy

Hello Tim, 11 years ago you passed Felix of Burgundy as a GA. I've given the article a few tweaks, and I wondered if you could take a look at the article again? I have put it up for a peer review, prior to attempting to get it to become a FA. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 19:16, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Good grief! I was still in my fifties then! As a septuagenarian I shall crank myself up to look in again. I look forward to it. Tim riley talk 19:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

And duly done. Tim riley talk 18:00, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Just a hello

Hi Tim, I was trying to wrap my head around some of the Misplaced Pages article format controversies, and the rabbit hole I followed brought me to a Misplaced Pages note appreciating you back in 2012. The Alice in Wikipedialand adventure reminded me of the numerous times I've reflected on you. My specific example was your help with the Frederick the Great good article and featured article reviews and how much your gentle, constructive, and encouraging comments really helped me to become a better editor (I think!), and indirectly helped guide me to a place where I could feel most useful to the Misplaced Pages project at large. And you taught me a lot without the sense of "teaching" at all! As I once wrote you before in the pre-Covid era, I think you are truly one of those editors that makes Misplaced Pages not just a strong source of information, but a pleasure. I'm so glad you stay engaged with it! Appreciatively Wtfiv (talk) 00:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

What a very pleasing message to get! Thank you so much. As to "gentle, constructive and encouraging", sometimes the first of the three adjectives falls by the wayside under provocation from drive-by editors, but not too often, I hope − and I also hope you will call on me for input whenever you feel the need. Tim riley talk 18:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Sybil Thorndike

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Sybil Thorndike you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 01:43, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Sybil Thorndike

The article Sybil Thorndike you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Sybil Thorndike and Talk:Sybil Thorndike/GA1 for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 00:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Sybil Thorndike

The article Sybil Thorndike you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Sybil Thorndike for comments about the article, and Talk:Sybil Thorndike/GA1 for the nomination. Well done! If the article has not already appeared on the main page as a "Did you know" item, or as a bold link under "In the News" or in the "On This Day" prose section, you can nominate it within the next seven days to appear in DYK. Bolded names with dates listed at the bottom of the "On This Day" column do not affect DYK eligibility. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Aza24 -- Aza24 (talk) 22:21, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

A very happy Christmas and New Year to you!
Have a great Christmas, and may 2023 bring you joy, happiness – and no trolls, vandals or visits from Krampus! Cheers SchroCat (talk) 11:17, 22 December 2022 (UTC)