Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:55, 6 March 2007

On 3 March 2007, this talk page was linked from Slashdot, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

On 5 March 2007, this talk page was linked from The Inquirer, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

Archives

Index -index- As of January 16, 2003 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 - late May 2006 May 24 - July 2006 July 2006 - August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 - Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 - December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 - Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 - Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007- Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2-5, 2007 March 5-11, 2007 March 11 - April 3, 2007 April 2 - May 2, 2007 May 3 - June 7, 2007 June 9 - July 4, 2007 July 13 - August 17, 2007 August 17 - September 11, 2007 September 14 - October 7, 2007 October 28 - December 1, 2007 December 2 - December 16, 2007 December 15 - January 4, 2008 January 4 - January 30, 2008 January 30 - February 28, 2008 February 28 - March 11, 2008 March 9 - April 18, 2008 April 18 - May 30, 2008 May 30 - July 27, 2008 July 26 - October 4, 2008 October 4 - November 12, 2008 November 10 - December 10, 2008 December 5 - December 25, 2008 December 25 - January 16, 2009 January 15 - January 27, 2009 January 26 - February 10, 2009 February 8 - March 18, 2009 March 18 - May 6, 2009 May 5 - June 9, 2009 June 10 - July 11, 2009 July 12 - August 29, 2009

(Again with the bad archiving practice, but I want us to take this opportunity to talk about ways that Misplaced Pages might be improved after this incident. I posted this to wikien-l, and am posting here to generate an on-wiki discussion here. Please stay on topic, and please feel free to delete random trolling comments (personal attacks) that do not contribute to a positive discussion of how we might grow. Not everyone will agree with this proposal, and that is fine of course, we need a healthy dialogue around the verifiability of credentials. But random accusations of conspiracy and corruption are just boring personal attacks. Let's keep this productive and positive.--Jimbo Wales 09:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to the EssJay scandal, I want to bring back an old proposal of mine from 2 years ago for greater accountability around credentials:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-May/022085.html

At the time, this seemed like a plausibly decent idea to me, and the reaction at the time was mostly positive, with some reasonable caveats and improvements:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2005-May/thread.html to read the entire thread of "An idea".

Nowadays, I bring back the proposal for further consideration in light of the EssJay scandal. I think it imperative that we make some positive moves here... we have a real opportunity here to move the quality of Misplaced Pages forward by doing something that many have vaguely thought to be a reasonably good idea if worked out carefully.

For anyone who is reading but not online, I will sum it up. I made a proposal that we have a system whereby people who are willing to verify their real name and credentials are allowed a special notification. "Verified Credentials". This could be a rather open ended system, and optional.

The point is to make sure that people are being honest with us and with the general public. If you don't care to tell us that you are a PhD (or that you are not), then that's fine: your editing stands or falls on its own merit. But if you do care to represent yourself as something, you have to be able to prove it.

This policy will be coupled with a policy of gentle (or firm) discouragement for people to make claims like those that EssJay made, unless they are willing to back them up.

How to confirm? What counts as confirmation? What sorts of things need confirmation? These are very interesting questions, as there are many types of situations. But one thing that we have always been very very good at is taking the time to develop a nuanced policy.

Just to take a simple example: how to verify a professor? This strikes me as being quite simple in most cases. The professor gives a link to his or her faculty page at the college or university, including the email there, and someone emails that address to say "are you really EssJay?" If the answer is yes, then that's a reasonable confirmation.

We can imagine some wild ways that someone might crack that process (stealing a professor's email account, etc.) but I think we need not design around the worst case scenario, but rather design around the reasonable case of a reasonable person who is happy to confirm credentials to us.

(This is a lower level of confirmation than we might expect an employer to take, of course.)

For someone like me, well, I have an M.A. in finance. I could fax a copy of the degree to the office. Again, someone could fake their credentials, but I don't think we need to design against some mad worst case scenario but just to have a basic level of confirmation.

Responses

• Yes. Perhaps it doesn't go far enough, and probably it has its own problems; but it certainly seems a move in the right direction. -- Hoary 09:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC) ... PS I dunno, some points made below are pretty good. I'll sleep on it. -- Hoary 11:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This feels to me like a bit of a distraction, so I have a different proposal to make. Could you just not appoint people to the ArbCom anymore? If a vacancy appears, we can automatically fill it with the person who got the next highest number of votes in the last election. At the very least, could you not appoint people who didn't even run in the last election? Also, could you not appoint people with a history of massive lies if you're aware of those lies? Everyking 09:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, this is a helpful start. Gwen Gale 09:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• WP:V > Someone with a Ph.D claiming that their edits are more worthy than others; what other purpose will it serve? Credential verification is nothing more than a tool for people to claim that their edits are more worthy, regardless of NPOV/V/OR, than someone elses. Not a very Wiki thing, in my opinion. Daniel Bryant 09:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

He addresses those worries. Working out an implementation could take some thought and time though and I do agree editors should be under no pressure to disclose credentials or that they should have sway in edits, only that those who do assert credentials should somehow make them verifiable. Gwen Gale 09:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Consensus > (A General Editor = A General Editor with a Ph.D). But, paramount to everything, is WP:V. No matter who you are, what titles you hold, anything that is contested on Misplaced Pages requires a reliable, third party, independant source. Having a new status of editors would blur this requirement, which undercuts on of the key foundations upon which this encyclopaedia is built. Daniel Bryant 09:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, a "new status" of editors would be way unhelpful. A citation from a reliable secondary source trumps any academic qualification. So why not ban assertions of credentials altogether? I don't think it's needed but I'd support that too. Gwen Gale 09:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In theory, using credentials in a content dispute to hang the applicability of your edits on is wrong. Practise may be different; I don't know. Regardless, I would/will frown upon anyone who does what I mentioned to aid themselves or their POV in a content dispute. I can't see any reason to banning their mention, only their use as before - we've always allowed userpages to "run free" like that. Daniel Bryant 09:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the assertion of credentials in an edit dispute could be made a blockable thing (like legal threats), but allow CVs on user pages if they've been verified somehow. Gwen Gale 09:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is a very good idea in princible, but I think you highlight some major concerns yourself, mainly, that it is very easy to simple fake a college certificate, especially with the ammount of knowledge users on this encyclopedia. I'm interested as to how this would work, would it be on wiki? with a new subgroup of people created - The verifiers! My concern with this would be privacy if the verifiers had to give out personal addresses to receive documents. Also, if documents were sent to wikia, surely that would be costly to implement, with a probable large number of documents to go through and verify? RyanPostlethwaite 09:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• similar reservation to Daniel Bryant. My personal approach has been different- I've never claimed any credentials on wikipedia, because I think they should ideally be irrelevant. Your work should depend on its own quality and the quality of its sources, and your reputation should depend on your work. we've got everything from preteens to retirees, and I don't think a credential makes a bit of difference, it all comes down to what can be cited. Basically, verification of credentials is irrelevant if they're ignored as they should be. Essjay never should have been treated any different because of what he claimed. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Truth be told I'd also be happy with a total ban on credential citing here but if some folks want to put them on user pages, they should be verifiable. Gwen Gale 09:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Another idea similar to Jimbo's: I have an idea but I don't know whether it can be done or not. The idea is to give sensitive positions like check user and oversight etc only to people who are willing to reveal their real identity to the Wikimedia Foundation so that the Foundation is sure that these people are (in real life) as they say about themselves. --Meno25 09:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree fully to that - to ensure that no deceit is occuring on Misplaced Pages for users with these sensitive permissions. Hell, I'd email Jimbo with everything he wants to know about me if he wanted it; given someone already gave away basically all my personal information in #-en-admins a couple of months ago, it's not like I care. Daniel Bryant 09:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would be reluctant to give any clue to my RL identity, for my own personal reasons. To be frank people don't need qualifications to regurgitate fact which is all we do here. Remember "own research" is not permitted. Even if it were announced at the top of the page that it had been written by the world's most eminent professor, there is nothing to stop another less exalted editor another paragraph - that is how[REDACTED] works. People using bogus credentials happens all the time in real life in hospitals, schools and multi-national companies. Sooner or later Citizendum and other similar projects will have their own identical scandals - the very nature of the internet and human behaviour creates them, and unless people are going to post their passports, identity papers and utility bills on their user pages (which will never happen) - these things will be repeated. So like it or lump it we have to get real and get over it. Posting or having qualifications in itself is a minefield? - which university granted the degree, which country was the university in? Can we rely on the student from The University of Ruritania? Whatever we decide, the dedicated imposter will always find a way in. We could demand however as Daniel Bryant suggests known true identity for checkusers and those who publicly represent and speak for[REDACTED] - sort of give certain editors an accredited press badge. Giano 09:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Which is why a total ban on credential waving would be ok by me. If an editor is asked to fill a position of trust, so long as Wales has a way of doing some due diligence on the person's RL background, there are few worries. Gwen Gale 09:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• It's the right sentiment, but I don't like the solution. Too much instruction creep, to much potential for badge wearing. It's also questionable if there's any value in revealing someone's degrees without knowing who they are in real life. It's not as if a degree by itself means anything.

What we could do as an alternative is to discourage people from claiming academic credentials, unless they're willing to provide a link to an outside website that reasonably proves that they're really who they claim to be. If somebody's a professor at some university and wishes it to be known on Misplaced Pages, they can simply interlink their university home page and their user page here. Zocky | picture popups 09:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, per Giano, my suggestion is that anyone who acts in a role as an ArbCom member, B'crat, Checkuser, Oversight, Steward, Office (der), OTRS, and anything similar, should have to verify to WMF that what they claim is true. Daniel Bryant 09:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What Daniel.Bryant said is what I meant exactly. --Meno25 10:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Privately with Wales or whomever, yes. Also make posting credentials on a user page so onerous or whatever in terms of verification, few want to do it. Gwen Gale 09:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Daniel Bryant and Giano on this one. If anyone is in a higher position above editor (admin and up), they should be expected to provide (privately) their credentials (if they choose to post them on their userpages) to Jimbo or the foundation. I believe it is important that editors do all they can to not post their personal information anywhere on the web. As Giano has stated, we simply use referenced work anyway, so our expertise is defined by our ability to research and cite our references.--MONGO 10:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Could I just clarify, I am only advocating true identity revelation for those in very high office, consequently with great trust placed upon them - such as checkuser. I'm not even sure the Arbcom have to be known - it is their judgement which is sought not their CV. It is those who could potentially do great harm to the project - revealing IPs ect, or being recomended by the organozation to speak to the press seemingly on behalf of Misplaced Pages who need to be acountable in real life. Giano 11:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"...we simply use referenced work anyway, so our expertise is defined by our ability to research and cite our references"...and not our credentials. OR becomes blurred, V becomes blurred, and that comprimises our foundation principles. Anyone who holds any "positions of trust" on Misplaced Pages is seen by the press as representing it; whether this is desirable or not, is irrelevant - it is the current situation. Daniel Bryant 10:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

And what happens if they don't claim anything. People who respect their privacy and refused to reveal anything? Will they be able to have higher positions, Checkuser, Oversight, on Wiki? (Sorry if I sound harsh) --K.Z 10:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• The fact is people claim credentials now anyway, as Essjay did. In less than 5 minutes effort, I found 50 Misplaced Pages Ph.D's today, and I can name another 15 off the top of my head. That was before I found Category:Wikipedians_by_degree. I once had a list of hundreds of Ph.D's here. The fact is also that people pay some attention to these, and it would be silly not too. That's not to say that any of the standard policies shouldn't apply, but every article here requires the application of judgement. Credentials are at least some indicator that judgement is well-informed, though not infallible. So, the right solution is to make credentials verifiable. In short, they're already here. They can serve a very valuable role here, just as in the real world, without changing policy at all. So, it's very sensible to provide a verification mechanism. Fear of a 'class' system are unfounded, since credentials are already out there and widely believed anyway. By the way, banning the mention of credentials is utterly unworkable, and frankly silly. Derex 10:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it would be silly, although I have no worries about CVs posted under a verification scheme, especially if asserting them in an edit dispute is deprecated: A strong citation has sway over any academic degree and people with academic degrees are trained in using them. Gwen Gale 10:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What are you going to do, block a professor — who has spent his entire adult life studying an issue and is struggling for days with some noob hasn't the slightest clue what he's talking about — for mentioning he's a professor? I guarantee you won't see that professor back again if you do. On the very rare occasions I edit economics articles, I avoid mentioning it because it generally puts people off if you try to pull rank. But, sometimes, it just cuts through the bullshit, and I'm not going to accept being blocked for simply stating that I do know what the hell I'm talking about. Derex 10:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

An academically credentialled expert on a topic can make quick work of any crank by following WP's documented citation policies. Gwen Gale 11:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not been my experience, and I assure you I have absolutely top-notch professional credentials. The problem is that it is very difficult to persuade a crank with a crankish reference to point at. However, the issue you raise is whether people should pay attention to credentials. It doesn't matter. The fact is that some people do. Derex 11:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If you want some tips on how to handle cranks and fools then, let me know :) Gwen Gale 11:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• From the technical standpoint, there are significant hurdles to overcome here.
  • Essentially, you would be building a database with private, personal information - who would be able to access that information? Any user groups in particular? Anyone? No one? Would the Privacy policy be the only document governing the handling of that information?
  • Where would that information be stored? Which steps are going to be taken to protect that information from outside attacks? How would the end users know that a certain editor verified his credentials? Will real names be visible anywhere?
  • Who would process those credentials vouchers? Would someone be paid to do so? Would current staff do so? Would more staff at St. Petersburg be required to do so? Would that place a financial burden on the Foundation?
  • Most importantly, why should an editor want to go through that hassle? What benefits would the editor see? Would there be any reprisals for lack of revealing information?
• The idea may have merit, but it is half-cooked as of now. But I guess since this is the drawing board, there's no need to go back to it. Any suggestions? Answers? Titoxd 10:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• I would want to ensure that we find a balance between accountability and credentialsm. In my opinion, anything that increases accountability is good. Anything that increases credentialism is bad. I feel we are at the point where if you want to be an administrator, you need to submit the kind of information one would submit for any kind of sensitive volunteer work. I believe this should be retroactive for all admins, and the information should not be made public, though disclosure should be strongly encouraged. Anyone speaking to the media as a representative or having responsibilities above normal admin levels needs to have a background check and must use their real name. That may sound draconian, and we may lose some good admins, but this episode demonstrates that the project has reached a level where the more informal arrangements of the past are no longer acceptable. Now, as far as credentialism, I am very much opposed to anything that makes some rank-and-file editors "more equal than others." It's antithetical to core principles of the project. A good edit is a good edit, and I would hate to see anyone fail to question an edit or get backed down in a dispute just because it's made by some editor with letters after their name vs. some homeschooled kid or some day laborer. Edit counts and other forms of heirarchical ranking should never be invoked in content disputes. Fallacies like appeals to authority are moot if the edit is based on WP:ATT. Degrees and other personal information are interesting but irrelevant to edits. They are, however, entirely relevant to accountability. I would be very sad if this incident led to a move toward elitism, since the egalitarian ethos is part of what makes this such a grand human experiment. Jokestress 10:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Spot on, this is what I've been getting at (thanks for throwing in a reference to the abuse of edit counts too). Gwen Gale 10:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

"A good edit is a good edit." How do you know a good edit? It's certainly more than simply checking correct attribution, all manner of fringe theories can be attributed. You use your judgement and experience. Why do we use usernames here, instead of anonymous ip's? Because usernames allow a sort of reputation for judgement and experience to develop. Unfortunately, it doesn't scale particularly well to situations with thousands of editors. Why should the judgement and experience indicated by a Ph.D. be dismissed here at Misplaced Pages, when in the real world it is so highly valued that people spend many years acquiring one? To repeat my previous point, people already quite sensible refer to their credentials. If they bore no weight, Essjay would not have been a problem. They're here. They're used. They're widely believed. None of that is going to change. Verify. Derex 11:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I interpreted that to mean "an edit supported by strong citations from reliable secondary sources" holds sway over any assertion of academic credentials. I'll get to the pith of it though: Lots of the PhDs one sees listed on this wiki are verifiable but lots are horse pucky too (or from worthless schools) and there is wide abuse. Gwen Gale 11:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't suggest for a second that some professor's say-so should overrule any standard policies. Obviously any position in a dispute should be citeable. The problem is that disputes here reflect disputes in the real world, which are usually citeable. Each of us exercises judgement every time we edit a disputed article. NPOV policy goes an amazingly long way, but it does not eliminate the need for judgement. The bottom line is that if you think degrees are "horse pucky" then you don't pay any attention to them now, and you won't if they are verified either. But, some people do pay attention to them, and it would be best to ensure that they are at least genuine horse pucky. Derex 11:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You might want to very carefully re-read my post since I never said degrees are horse pucky. I said that bogus assertions of hem are horse pucky. Gwen Gale 11:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the "or" in your parentheses. The point stands though. At least we can weed out bogus claims. Verification doesn't mean credentials will necessarily get you any farther than they already do, which usually is very little. Derex 11:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Verification of credentials listed on a user page is more than ok with me. Citing credentials in an edit dispute is not. An academic editing here should have the enough knowledge and skill to support assertions with helpful and strong citations. Gwen Gale 11:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Derex, if something is a fringe theory, there will be an attributable source noting as much. Experts are welcome and are often good at framing a concept or article, but that does not make them infallible. A good expert can make quick work of a fringe theory through WP:ATT. Ultimately, the content and not the expert or non-expert writing should be the deciding factor in a good edit. That's what I mean. Just because I know a lot about certain topics should not make anyone defer to me. Ideally, my edits would be equally scrutinized and challenged whether I were an IP editor or a public figure. I guess I have a different outlook on the recent incident. If journalists weren't fixated on credentialism, Essjay's credentials woudn't have been in the article. I also have a suspicion that he moved up quickly in part because of said credentialsm (in addition to a great deal of unassailably excellent work). So my point is that people with credentials should not get a free pass, and those who think they matter should ask why they think they matter. Sincerely, Jokestress (M.A., English, University of Chicago, 1990) ;) Jokestress 11:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The balance suggested by Jokestress seems good to me. People are going to refer to their life experience to support their position, and if academic credentials are important to them they're likely to call on them, but giving that a seal of approval by a wee star saying "trust this user, s/he's a doctor" is the wrong way to go. The better approach is to say that it would be much appreciated if they could draw on their credentials to set out a fully referenced case, being careful to meet WP:NOR. This open examination of arguments rather than trusting expert opinion is what makes Misplaced Pages so valuable: Britannica exemplifies the other approach which often works well, but it also has some howlers in it. We need to value, encourage and cherish experts here for what they can contribute, but not for their unimpeachable authority. ... dave souza, talk 11:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• Jokestress has captured my sentiments quite well, but I would like to recapitulate my own take on this situation in my own words to make sure that we are in accord. To wit, I am against the policing of userpages and/or credentials for rank and file Misplaced Pages contributors, but anyone who seeks to move up through the ranks should be prepared to sacrifice more and privacy, particularly so when someone is going to be recommended by the powers that be at Misplaced Pages as a source to the press. Moreover, in light of the fact that so many of Misplaced Pages's current administrators remain loyal to Essjay and see his deception as "no big deal," I am in favor of making such a policy retroactive for anyone who wishes to retain his or her positions of trust at Misplaced Pages. // Internet Esquire 19:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I fully understand what you are saying, and to a certain extent agree with you, but there are many vluable[REDACTED] editors who for various reasons cannot divulge their true identities, many eminent accademics (neither adjective or noun aply to me - seriously) have legal contracts preventing them writing or publishing for others than their employers - and that is just the tip of the iceberg but are these people who give so much to[REDACTED] to be prevented from accepting the responsibility given freely to a precocious 14 year old merely because they cannot divilge identitiy. Giano 19:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

As someone who is unwilling to volunteer verification of any personal details about himself to anyone other than creditors and respected members of the press, and then only as deep background information with the latter, this has never affected my ability to contribute to Misplaced Pages, nor should it, as I have never felt the desire to seek administrator privileges. Administrators have largely janitorial duties, but are in a position of trust, having been given the virtual keys to the building. // Internet Esquire 19:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What we shouldn't have is a replication of Citizendium, where everyone has to prove their expertise/training/credentials. I would probably leave Misplaced Pages if that were to happen. In reevaluation, might I suggest that checkuser/oversight/arbcom and "approved" spokespersons have their personal details filed in private with the Foundation. We can't stop editors from speaking to the press and we shouldn't, but we can definitely ensure that anyone acting in an official capacity has proof of their achievements on record.--MONGO 11:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Without expressing an opinion on your proposal Jimbo, I think MONGO's suggestion above represents a minimum requirement for handing out the postions with access to sensitive information and those whose actions reflect strongly on the project. —Doug Bell  11:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I have three points:
  • When Essjay was in full expert-mode he became more detailed about his academic career, even so far as explaining just how he arranges his degrees after his name or giving the exact cost of his education. The lesson The more an editor wants to use their personal expertise to settle an issue the more they have invested in that "truth". Therefore they'll go to lengths to establish their credentials, real or otherwise. I can easily imagine the Essjay of June 2005 faking websites or diplomas to send to the Foundation.
  • I've recently encountered two book editors who've both followed a similar arc: jumping into WP to write positive articles about themselves and their associates, and to write attack pieces on enemies. Both are known in their field. Both have claimed expertise and experience in editing. Both were POV pushing and engaging in OR. Both became angry when informed that Misplaced Pages policies require a neutral tone and verifiable material. Experts are not necessarily impartial and that they may not understand the norms of this project.
  • Despite the above observations I think this is a very good idea. It puts the world and the community on notice that if someone wants to claim personal expertise they'd better be able to verify it. As far as WP's culture goes, this proposal is the opposite of prohibiting anonymous editing. It creates another way of contributing, another level of familiarity, and may also help solve the issue of retaining legitimate experts. It is similar to Amazon's "real name" designation.-Will Beback · † · 11:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Damn, that deleted revision is incredibly revealing. It takes a different perspective when you know who those words are really coming from. The self-aggrandizing martyr complex that shows up in his apology was there a year and a half ago too. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 13:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Actually, that wasn't the link I intended. I've added the link I'd meant to provide, this one. I think it provides insight into the mind of someone who engaged in this type of credential fraud.-Will Beback · † · 22:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In contrast, I'd dealings separately with two editors who let it be known that they were historians and authors: one was an invaluable contributor whose edits appeared fully reliable, but was upset by a silly argument with clowns adding unexplained "unencyclopedic tone" tags to his work, and left. The other was a bully whose spurious arguments made me wonder about academic standards where he came from. We need to encourage experts, but approving the validity of their claimed credentials introduces a new mechanism that can be gamed: as I recall, Ben Goldacre has a dead cat with a diploma in nutritional therapy. Do we have a grading system for how good the credentials are? ... dave souza, talk 11:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is also being discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Administrators accountability, where I've put some thoughts in a fair bit of detail. Briefly, I don't think it was a huge problem, in itself - though it was certainly a problem - that someone was claiming non-existent credentials and trying to pull rank with them in content disputes, but it was a huge problem when someone who was doing that also gained positions of power and responsibility, and was held out by Misplaced Pages as a good person for the press to interview. I'd rather concentrate on how we keep such people out of positions of power, and out of acting as representatives of Misplaced Pages in the wider world. Once again, I think there is some point (perhaps above mere administrator) where it should be necessary to register personal details with Jimbo or, more realistically, with someone like the Foundation's legal officer. Details should include any secondary accounts used and why (there definitely can be legitimate reasons, but in Essjay's case concern is already being expressed about any possible sockpuppets). However, personal details should not be registered with some anonymous person. E.g. if I registered my details somewhere, I would want them held in a safe place by an accountable officer or employee of the Foundation. Metamagician3000 11:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• If people choose to publish on their user pages their qualification, then a level of proof should also be provided but of course anything can be fabricated. We must, however, avoid creating a two tier level hierachy of editors - an educated elite v daft peasants. Which I think could arise if this is not handled very cleverly. Giano 11:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ala Citizendium... But it any case, it must be the verifiable citation, not clever elocution on a Talk page which is the deciding factor. --Lmcelhiney 17:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes and banning any assertion of qualifications during an edit dispute could be clever enough. A skilled academic with knowledge of the topic should be able to use existing WP citation policies to handle cranks or whatever, who often don't heed CVs anyway. Gwen Gale 12:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'm seeing a lot of merit in what is being said by Giano, Gwen Gale, MONGO, Daniel Bryant, and maybe some others - we all seem to see the problem in a similar way (and slightly differently from Jimbo, I think). Where we are disagreeing among ourselves is just in what circumstances people should have to register personal details somewhere safe. At one of the scale, it might be everyone with any authority at all, i.e. the 1000+ admins. At the other end of the scale it might be only a very few: maybe checkusers and spokespersons. I'd tend to go for something in between, but any proposal like this would have been a line of defence with the Essjay scandal if it had been operating fairly rigorously. Metamagician3000 12:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good suming up - the debate should really concentrate on the level within Misplaced Pages at which identity disclosure becomes necessary - and perhaps more importantly where and to whom that information is disclosed and stored. Giano 12:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Gwen Gale's idea deals with the problem of claimed credentials without taking on the task of a credentials vetting agency, a register of personal details for those with significant authority would reduce and hopefully eliminate the possibility of unknown falsehoods becoming an embarrassment. .. dave souza, talk 14:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I think it would be a mistake to take from this that people claiming to have a PhD should set off red flags in WP. It is people who claim to have a high level of expertise and refuse to share basic personal information to "guard their privacy" that should set off red flags. Many people who share that they have a PhD on their user page, also share where they live and are currently employed as well as their real names. It would be a waste of time and effort to have such people register for special secret verification. Any editor who becomes suspicious could take verification measures in those cases. However I think that any claims of expertise which are coupled with anonymity should be politely be asked to verify their claims through a method like what Jimbo suggests or else be asked to refrain from making any such claims. The most important thing we must keep in mind in making use of this lesson is not to get stuck on PhD's. The next attempt along these lines (if there are not already existing cases) is just as likely to be a reasonably high ranking retired army officer or a minor member of royalty as an academic. The red flag to watch for here is impressive claims made by a strong advocate for personal anonymity. --BirgitteSB 22:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC) Let us approach this pivotal fact in a humble yet hopeful mood: We have had no end of a lesson, it will do us no end of good!

I don't see a problem with people claiming credentials on their userpages (other than the moral obligation not to lie). I claim (truthfully) to hold a B.A in History from U.Q. I do this as a matter of adding some details to my userpage (no one is asking for verification of my claim I live in Cleveland). I don't, however, use this in arguments, which is where my objection to Essjays actions come in. If I were, then I would understand the need to verify my degree (though the practicalities of this are problematic). However, I don't see many reasons for this verifaction. Whether or not you hold a degree in a subject is irrelivent - you should be able to prove what you are saying with verifable sources. If you have to resort to 'nah nah, I have a degree and you don't', then you are most probably wrong.

I do see one opportunity, where non expertised wikipedians can ask expertised wikipedians for help. That should require some confirmation of credentials. But generally, no. If you want to claim you hold a Phd in Awesomeness, go for it. Iorek85 23:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No offense but I don't find a B.A in History from U.Q. all that impressive, so I don't think your situation should merit a red flag ;) Still I think it was clear that EssJay's claims were designed to impress. Anyone who portrays themselves in an impressive manner while they claiming they cannot share their identity with anyone really should raise a red flag after this. And I will point out that EssJay didn't simply not mention his identity; he advocated strongly that their was no need for anyone, regardless of the levels of trust they held, to share personal information. Not even with the board. If I saw someone advocating such a position tomorrow and I looked at their userpage and saw them sharing some non-identifiable but impressive details about themselves, that would raise a red flag for me and I think it should for you or anyone else who has paid attention to this incident.--BirgitteSB 23:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• If you want to verify degrees, you will need to require official transcripts in sealed and stamped envelopes. Everything else is too easy to fake, as Frank Abagnale pointed out to us multiple times. Jesse Viviano 23:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• It doesn't have to be anything near foolproof to be useful. I doubt that new user Essjay (for example) would have been willing to undertake elaborate steps to deceive the office. Is there even a policy that says, "don't claim fake credentials?" I don't see anything to this effect on WP:USER, for example. Likewise, is there any policy which states, "don't lie to the press or the public?" If there were, accompanied by a clear consequence (e.g. if you do this, you'll be banned by the office,) perhaps it would have been followed.Proabivouac 00:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
• Update: I just added this. However, as WP:USER is pathetically under-enforced, and anyhow is only a guideline, nothing stated therein can be considered sufficient.Proabivouac 00:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose if any credentials claimed have any bearing in any way on the encyclopaedic content or content decision making. If that were the case then it reads like a disaster waiting to happen. We all know how some folks will go to extraordinary lengths to "win" POV wars - now all we have is someone getting some credential listing and they can weigh in and start throwing their weight about overruling others because "I know best" - all you then have is games of one-upmanship - and the person who has the highest qualification (bearing in mind qualifications need not have any correlation to competency, understanding or intelligence) can then "pull rank" and throw down the trump "I'm a professor this is what it will read as". I never had any interaction with, or connection with any of the essjay situations, but if he had posted some of his "I'm an expert dah dah, thus this should be deleted/kept", in Afd's I was involved in then my response (and this is genuinely the case, not just with the benefit of hindsight) would have been, "fair enough you can claim that, but you are just another editor". Jimmy is a little skirting with the verifiability of it all as well. People in the real world can get real world jobs and real world promotions based on forged credentials - that happens often enough - in the online world it is frankly laughably easy to add a couple of Degrees to your name. I think citizendium is a flawed concept, and I think these proposals are running down the same path and would lead to nothing but problems. SFC9394 00:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with several above me that anyone in a position of special trust should identify themselves fully (and verifiably) to the Foundation. That would seem to be all access levels/rights above administrator, possibly with the exception of developers, plus ArbComm members. Similarly, anyone that is volunteering to be a press contact should be validated. All of these people are the public face of Misplaced Pages, and can cause far greater damage to the encyclopedia than an editor, or even than an administrator. As to administrators, I don't see the need right now, but don't strongly object either. GRBerry 04:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Jimbo, you say If you don't care to tell us that you are a PhD (or that you are not), then that's fine: your editing stands or falls on its own merit. But if you do care to represent yourself as something, you have to be able to prove it. If one's editing stands on its own merit, why should the resources be spent to prove credentials to others? Yes, the Foundation should know who its checkusers and oversighters (and possibly ArbCom) are (I assume that developers are employed my the Foundation). No, this information shouldn't be made public. I'm not sure that this information should even be kept. Perhaps have someone verify the information of these persons who hold these positions, check them off the list as verified, and destroy the personal information. Wodup 07:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Privacy policy

• My main concern at this point are people entrusted with information covered by the privacy policy are known to the foundation (their real identity). Misuse or posting of people's checkuser information could reveal their place of employment and other personal details and have major consequences for the person concerned. On the privacy policy where it says "The Wikimedia Foundation makes no guarantee against unauthorized access to any information you provide.", does this include my checkuser information? This makes it sound like it's okay for a checkuser to misuse my information and there is nothing I could do about it. I think that needs to be clarified. Any steps to increase "Security of information" (as described in the policy) would be most welcome. I might even recommend running a background check or something on those people entrusted with checkuser information, to give some comfort that these people are trustworthy. A background check need not be complex, but just a simple check like done if you want to work or even volunteer in a daycare center, with children. I think that would go a long way in assuring people who edit and use Misplaced Pages. --Aude (talk) 14:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that within your comment is contained what will prove to be a fatal flaw with the whole scheme. Many[REDACTED] editors edit from their work place, i.e. on someone elese's computer and in someone else's time. I will certainly admit to being guilty of that on occasions. Consequently, I think few will be prepared to take the risk of leaving themselves open to such risks or exposure in the workplace however remote they may be. In the few years I've been here, I have heard occasional accusations of chekuser abuse - maybe they are true, maybe they are false - I don't know. What I do know is wherever there are a few hundred human beings gathered together there will always be rumour - and this will deter people from revealing too much about themselves. People's privacy is their own business. Giano 14:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Hence, allow CVs on user pages only if they've been verified through the "vetted light" way proposed by Wales and ban any assertion of them in editing disputes. As for positions of high trust, let WMF and Wales work out a more formal background check like any responsible org. Gwen Gale 14:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Is the idea to require any claims of credentials to be verified? Or is it simply to allow credentials to be verified, if an editor wishes? The latter seems more workable, and more in line with privacy concerns. Right now, people have the easy privacy cop-out that Essjay took, if their credential claims are questioned. A voluntary system removes that as a reasonable evasion. You can prove to the Foundation that you are legit, without revealing your real identity to Misplaced Pages as a whole. I don't really see a downside, as all it does is remove camoflouge for fraud. I suppose however that one might prefer to allow generic suspicions of fraud, if one is opposed to credentials being used at all. I think the singular focus on admins and such is misplaced, most of the world isn't going to particularly care about that distinction because admins don't do most of the editing. Derex 23:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think that the important thing is that people who are held out as having authority be - well, not saints who are beyond all possible reproach (none of us are that) but certainly people who are at least bona fide. Hence my support for the proposals that I have made, or supported, here about some kind of confidentially-maintained register of personal details for people beyond a certain level of Wiki-authority.

I tend to think, at the moment, that the way to go with the credentials thing is to insist that credentials don't count and to deprecate their use. Accordingly, I have just removed references to real-world credentials/experience from my userpage - not because they were inaccurate but because I now think that having them there is a bad idea, and trying to pull rank based on expertise or real-world experience is likewise a bad idea. I'm not even saying I've never yielded to the temptation to do that in the past - the record would show me up if I said that - but I'll make efforts to resist the temptation in the future. Sometimes real-life things about oneself have to be mentioned or hinted at (e.g. for disclaimers), but I think that a credential-vetting system is probably not the way to go, and anyway until such a time as we do go down that path we should all be reluctant to say much at all about any special expertise we might have. Metamagician3000 01:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing personal information has the downside of impairing people's ability to know where you're coming from. My user page discloses that I'm a lawyer -- that's a credential that I suppose might lead someone to defer to me in an edit dispute (not that it ever has, AFAIK), but it's also an indication of my bias, of what aspects of an issue I might overemphasize, etc.

I like Jimbo's idea if it's completely voluntary. I could continue to disclose my profession, for the benefit of anyone who wants to be put off by that, but people can decide not to give it any positive weight unless I have the little "Verified" sticker. Gwen Gale and others have suggested that users be prohibited from stating credentials on a user page if not verified. That would be an enforcement nightmare. What wouuld be included in the "CV" that must be verified? Would my claim to be a New Yorker count? For some purposes, that is a credential.

Compulsory verification (to the Foundation) is appropriate for anyone designated as a spokesperson, etc., but not for the average user or even the average admin. JamesMLane t c 02:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Essjay scandal

I think it's a positive step to have you acknowledged in direct terms that this was a scandal. Thank you. —Doug Bell  09:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Doug, no offence, but this isn't helpful at this moment. If Jimbo didn't think it was a scandal, my guess is that he wouldn't have acted as he did in the end. If what you really want is a sort of apology for Jimbo's initial reaction, then please consider that apologies can only be given freely, and demanding them doesn't do anybody any good. Zocky | picture popups 10:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC) I did, in fact, misunderstand Doug's comment and I gladly take mine back :) Zocky | picture popups 11:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You're misinterpretting my comment. I not asking for an apology, I simply view his direct acknowledgement of what seems to be the community consensus as a positive step in moving forward on this issue. This comment here is complimentary, and not intended to be sarcastic, inflamatory, insulting or any other negative interpretation. —Doug Bell  10:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It was a scandal. And I have apologized for my role in it. I made several mistakes of judgment at various points along the way, and I am very much in favor of reforming our processes so that we are not so vulnerable. I am spending a lot of time reflecting carefully on my role here. The primary mistake that I made is one that I have trouble condemning myself for, because I think that one of my personality flaws is actually a strength for Misplaced Pages: a willingness to trust people and assume good faith even in difficult times. That caused me to wrongly minimize the importance of this, and to make bad decisions for a time. I am very sorry for that, and the only solution I know of is to work for positive change.--Jimbo Wales 11:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thus the reason behind my "Thank you". I appreciate this immensely as the initial reaction from both you and Essjay was disturbing to the point that if that was the final outcome I would have to leave the project. I am very grateful that it wasn't and that I don't. —Doug Bell  11:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I echo Doug Bell. Thanks for this message. Tintin 11:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

As I see it Essjay has gone off into the wilderness with a lot of well deserved condemnation ringing in his ears, inspired by copious amonts of righteous anger and not a small amount of schadenfreude. Essjay regrets it, we regret it. It happened, it is over. It is time to stop the autopsy and the "mea culpas" - hindsight is a wonderous thing, and none of us have it. It is going to happen here and to all similar projects again at some time in the future - that is unavoidable by the laws of human nature. If that Citizendum man does not realise that then he is bigger fool, than some of us probably feel right now. Time now to move on and endevour to prevent it happening so easily again, and join the conversation instigated by Jimbo above. Giano 12:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Other views

We have to keep in mind that nobody is really interested in the dirt here. What really draws their interest is the grandness of this NPOV vision of describing accurately the paths of civilization in attempting to bring men to be human. Now there is a lot of conflict in exactly what human civilization is, and that conflict is what brings them all here. Nobody is really interested in whatever small deception there is in Essjay playing out that nice role he wrote for himself in his life. It would make a delightful short movie--not much of a deception at all. However, when that small deception appears against the background of this huge NPOV project and mission of capturing in print the truth of all of man's striving since the beginning of time--that deception, though small, will drive men mad. So we have to keep all of this in perspective. While it may good for us all to ask forgivenesses for our "small deceptions" and oversights, let us not forget that the only reason that our detractors' animal passions blow this series of events completely out-of-proportion is because of the grandness of this NPOV mission and dream of making all that is known available in one accurate Misplaced Pages available free-to-all. That is huge, and it is that hugeness of enterprise and possibility that brings even the detractors to these pages. So we have to kind of calm everybody down and keep our sense of proportion. This mission is huge, let us admit. --Rednblu 12:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Splendid, grandiose, and a worthy summary of this huge mission – but what about women's striving? ;) A significant point is "the truth" – something that often emerges in discussions is that there are multiple truths depending on viewpoint, which is why NPOV sets out to reflect all those viewpoints in proportion. ... dave souza, talk 13:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, I think this is a meed thing to talk about and everything but it strays far from the administrative worry of basic accountability for CVs posted on WP. Gwen Gale 13:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I have found my questions from ten hours ago--not personal attacks, not trolling, but perfectly honest questions--buried in the archive. We'll all draw our own conclusions and as I said, I'm done. --Larry Sanger 14:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, buried along with everyone else's comments and understandably, so he could clear his talk page and say what he had to say. Wales has said he made mistakes and has even apologized. Meanwhile why don't you offer a helpful word or two based on your experience with credentials over at Citizendium instead of implying your comments have been singled out and brushed aside? Gwen Gale 14:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Jimbo deserves sole responsibility here: if some of the issues that emerged in the last week had been known earlier on then the community would have dealt with the issue without such fuss. It had been my belief that serious misrepresentations usually get weeded out at the RFA level. Once I saw the relevant diffs, Essjay's fiction was apparent: he demonstrated the spelling and punctuation mistakes of an undergraduate rather than the prose of a professor and Catholicism for Dummies isn't the type of source a Ph.D. normally cites. Someone who knew his contribution history could have made a strong circumstantial case to challenge his CV, either during a formal nomination or at RFC. A few step forward now to say it was obvious...well, what seemed obvious to me (and I suppose to many others) is that an administrator, bureaucrat, etc. probably had told the truth all along or he wouldn't have attained those positions of trust. As I stated in my first comment on this scandal, if any other administrators have padded their credentials I hope they come clean now. Durova 15:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree: Jimbo appointed Essjay - the buck stops with him. Exclusively. The point is this: Godkingship is a very poor idea in a wiki and Jimbo should step down from that post. .... contributed at on 5 March 2007 by 129.170.29.111

• Is this getting us anywhere? This is an opportunity to make some improvements for the better, can we not see it as such and grasp it. Anyone who imagines Jimbo is going to resign is wasting their life in cloud cuckoo land. It is his project, his encyclopedia - in short his show - so he is not going to leave it. Maybe he has been a little gullible on this occasion, I don't really see anything beyond that - and I'm pretty good at spotting faults. Anyway this is all hypothetical because he's not stepping down, so get used to the idea and lets improve the place. Giano 15:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to say is that in a wiki decisions are made by extensive discussion, not by fiat, and that decisions are never permanent and wiki-internal appointments never permanent. The idea of Wiki-chief is incompatible with that. The system runs on trust and respect. You can't demand respect, you can only earn it.

Never mind respect, trust is everything. Gwen Gale 16:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Mr/MS IP, I hadn't realized that it was J Wales who appointed Essjay administrator or bureaucrat. (Actually I'd have voted for him as bureaucrat myself, but didn't merely because of what you might call a technicality. So a cent of the buck stops with me. Should I step down? If I do, must I step into a cowpat?) -- Hoary 15:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Since you two have spoken up I'll say this, Wales botched and he says so. Meanwhile if by some docking fluke he left this wiki it would grind down into throes of gridlock and a messy end within months. Talent and leadership ability are behind what has enabled the social engineering marvel of this wiki. Flaws and all, it's his talent, his wiki. Gwen Gale 15:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Other wikipedias manage rather well without a chief.

Look Jimbo will be going nowhere. Maybe other Wikipedias do maybe they don't - but I don;t see the ppoint if having further hypothetical discussions on the subject. Incidentally your points may carry more weight if you logged in. Giano 16:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not the OP, but speaking as an observer it seems to me that Jimbo's accorded "status," if you will, on this site seems a direct contradiction of both the spirit and the letter of WP:OWN. It seems to me that WP has long since reached a point where the policies have to apply to everyone, even and especially Jimbo, if the site is to counter ongoing criticism that "the rules don't apply" to Jimbo's active friends on the site. I'm not saying "get rid of Jimbo," but that that no editor or admin should be accorded status above the spirit and letter of policy. Academy Leader 19:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This wiki's the knack so far 'n I don't think he wants to blow it :) Gwen Gale 16:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo's decisions by fiat are very bad, practically a scourge. Essjay's appointment is just the latest example. I can't imagine how someone could think it's good to have a self-appointed guy at the top issuing decrees in place of community decision-making. He should become just a PR man for the project or something like that. More time in remote villages, less time meddling in what should be community matters on the encyclopedia. I refuse to accept the fatalistic "he's not going anywhere" attitude. Everyking 05:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Can we get back to constructive discussion of how/whether to vet credentials (if we are going to do that, which doesn't seem like a priority to me ... but that's just me) and/or how/whether to vet the bona fides of people in (or seeking) positions of trust? Endless slagging off at Jimbo gets us nowhere, and he's not only apologised for making misjudgments but also made an attempt to consult with us constructively. For God's sake let's concentrate on taking him up on that. Metamagician3000 22:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe an earnest and forthright discussion re: Jimbo's "accorded status on WP" is at all out of line or inappropriate in this context. I am not saying this to offend anyone, but the way I see it, public work for the foundation should be an entirely separate sphere from online work on the encyclopedia. The site itself as a whole seems mature enough to live or die by the observance of its consensus-based policies and not by any one individual's decree or deed. To me, it seems Jimbo has far too many yes-men on this site who won't act to prevent him from making mistakes. I don't know to what extent this may also be true in the real world, but it seems to me this drama on-site is at best a distraction from the real world work promoting the foundation. If some sort of on-site executive is needed (perhaps as a liaison with the foundation?) that office should be occupied by an editor elected by the membership to a limited term, but no one individual should ever be in a position to make a binding decision or decree on something here outside of an open, accessible and consensus-driven process. Best regards to all, Academy Leader 09:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Under rug, swept?

Just as the New York Times is rather complimentary about our "transparency" and efforts to resolve this issue through discussion, all evidence of this incident is being deleted. If anyone were to look today, there would be no RFC about Essjay, no letter from Essjay to "other" professors, no talk archives about other users trying to talk to him about the situation, and no article about "Essjay". If this continues, the next article in the Times is going to be titled "Misplaced Pages attempts to cover up scandal", and as we have all just learned, sometimes the cover up is worse than the crime.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.150.34.235 (talk • contribs)

Jimbo, take a look at this deletion reveiw: The evidence that the community disapproves of this fraud is now gone; so far as anyone can discern, we are collectively mostly interested in covering it up. That's not true at all, but thanks to this deletion, that's the appearance.Proabivouac 17:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• This is not good. David Gerard's actions could further damaging the reputation of Misplaced Pages in the press - this is going to appear like a mamoth attempt at a cover up, if we don't have a very strong message from you, Jimbo - that we are facing up to the problem and confronting it. Giano 17:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

If Phil Sandifer is acting here in some official capacity, please let us know about it.Proabivouac 17:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please do let us know if some sort of authorization to erase these histories has gone over the backchannels. Gwen Gale 17:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of us expected this and archived some things with webcitation.org:

• Edit in which Essjay claims to a user that he had a PhD and students under his charge
• Essjay's (non-)apology
• Letter by Essjay to an academic in which he falsely claims academic credentials and accomplishments.
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Essjay
• User:Essjay/History1
• Deletion log 1 of Essay's userspace
• Deletion log 2 of Essay's userspace

74.225.21.234 19:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Exhausted

First let me make crystal clear: I have no axe to grind against Essjay. I knew and admired him mostly through his reputation and had only very limited direct interaction with him. Until a few days ago, that's all there was.

I was deeply disturbed by his long-term deception, the black eye he gave the project via the New Yorker article, and the seemingly cavalier attitude regarding all this from you. Because of my strong feelings that without accountability on this issue that I could not continue at the project, I have spent a great deal of effort over the last several days trying to focus discussion on what I believe are the core issues at stake. I have done this knowing that such heavy involvement might earn me the wrath of many of the long-time and key contributors here who counted Essjay among their friends. I've done this despite many direct and indirect accusations of being part of "a mob", "a lynching", or simply someone motivated to "kick someone while they were down". Nothing could be further from the truth. My motivation was to help rescue the project from a wound inflicted by one of our best contributors.

It has been a difficult and unpleasant process, and one likely to have cost me much goodwill from many of the others here that hold similar positions of high trust as Essjay did. I accept that cost if it helps the project because really for me the only alternative was to leave.

Now it seems that this process of community discussion and evaluation is being replaced by out-of-process attempts to, as put above, sweep much of this under the rug. I can think of nothing at this point that will harm the project more than that. David Gerard's deletion of the most orderly and constructive discussion on this is perhaps the last straw for me. I am reluctant to give up the fight for the project, as I have seen that most people here understand the absolute need for accountability despite the personal pain involved. However, I am becoming exhausted with the effort required to continue against the emotionally-driven efforts of many people here—and many from the innermost circles of the project hierarchy—to undo the painfully achieved progress on vetting and moving forward. It makes me sad, and it has exhausted my energy for the moment to continue to fight for the dignity of the project.

For now, I'm stepping back and hoping that others will save the project from itself. I hope to return soon, but it depends on whether the project has the strength to complete the process recently praised in the New York Times article. Sorry if this all sounds melodramatic, but I believe this to be a defining point for the project. You have stepped forward and that gives me great hope in the leadership, but for now I wait to see how this plays out. Your skills at moving the community forward constructively are needed now as much as ever before.

—Doug Bell  17:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on this. As you say, it's essential for the record to be as open as possible: the praise of open process praised in the NYT article is marred by the opening sentence "In a blink, the wisdom of the crowd became the fury of the crowd." which sorely mischaracterises the sympathy of many, probably most, of those trying to resolve this difficult human situation. The community seems to me to be doing pretty well with the assistance of Jimbo's helpful words, and the record should be there to make this clear. .. dave souza, talk 18:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Having watched the Essjay drama unfold over the last week, I found Doug Bell's contributions to be the most helpful in putting things into perspective. Take a break, Doug. You've earned it. // Internet Esquire 19:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't stay away long Doug. Paul August ☎ 23:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Honesty, lucidity and/or transparency are essential elements of any reputable journal, paper, or encyclopedia:

As a new editor, using my real name from the beginning; albeit an accused "sock puppeteer," I have seen first hand what can come from a misguided "checkuser" system and I have also been disappointed, having seen thousands of meaningful items of knowledge deleted by individuals seeking to create their own encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia for "the people."

I have said this beautiful creation called Misplaced Pages, should be "the source," of all information...for us, and our children. "THE SOURCE," that does more additions than subtractions; a source with verified proof of facts and the integrity to show it.

By using our real names, ages, and our verifiable credentials, we truly share our experience, strengths, and hope...for our future here.

I suspect without the above, we have many/all of the elements that make "MySpace" a giant machine, however, we are all left without any form of verifiable truth to help substantiate any valid concept or theory ...that we are truly adding value and/or knowledge to our world.

Finally, as a dad, I want my children to use this miracle, with confidence, that someone with verifiable credentials is responsible for reviewing and correcting any lack of verifiable truth, herein.

Thank you for your time, Lee Nysted 18:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem with real names, at least in my situation, is with editing controversial topics. People obsessed with these topics, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories can sometimes engage in trolling and harassment of others. Now, I have met some conspiracy theorists in real life and most do not engage in such behavior. Nonetheless, harassment is a real concern, thus I don't use my real name. But, I also have said pretty much zero about my educational and professional credentials and not making up stuff. Now, if I wanted checkuser or other positions of trust, I find it reasonable that I would have to provide my information to the foundation and let them verify it. --Aude (talk) 19:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

• I think it is essential that check users are known to all, and I hesitate to say this, be legally accountable for damage caused by any breaches of confidence they should make, in that way perhaps slowly editors may feel encouraged to give identifiable information to the foundation. Giano 19:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment by Nysted:

All people of authority and especially "police" type authority figures like administrators, must be required to provide full disclosure of name, age, credentials, life experience, etc. It is unconscionable, what some of the administrators are getting away with, here. Gangs? Yes. MySpace gangs? Yes. Full disclosure of who is capable of taking my rights away, or taking away the rights of my family members should be known to all. Without a trusted governing body, there will be a system-wide failure. It could cost us the entire enterprise. This is the most serious breach of confidence this place has seen, but it will get far worse, if not checked, here and now. Lee Nysted 03:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please Clarify, Jimbo

I think it might help if you could please advise why you apparently allowed Essjay to keep false information on his Misplaced Pages page after he advised you it was false. Why would you not have instructed him to immediately correct or remove it?

I am relying on Essjay's talk page description of the events(as linked to by Wikinews) so if that is not accurate,please let us know.To just let that information sit as it is gives rise to assumptions of cavalierness about the matter which are likely wrongful assumptions, so please help clear that up if you don't mind.

http://en.wikinews.org/search/?title=Jimmy_Wales_asks_Wikipedian_to_resign_%22his_positions_of_trust%22_over_nonexistent_degrees&oldid=382962

http://www.wikipedia-watch.org/essjay.html 67.71.123.134 20:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

---

< I think it might help if you could please advise why you apparently allowed . . . . >

Good question! But apparently there is no way to answer that question--because the questioner cannot be interested in the question as asked. The questioner is interested in that question only against the backdrop of the huge task of building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia. And no doubt the questioner asks that question in good faith; I must admit that I ask that same question in good faith. But realistically, the questioner, even I, would never go around asking that kind of question--unless of someone involved in some huge monumental historic task like building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia. So no answer to that question or its variants would ever satisfy. --Rednblu 21:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that asking for the rationale behind a decision to let someone present false credentials on Misplaced Pages *is* related to the task of building an accurate NPOV encyclopedia, since the credentials were being used in content disputes.

I also think that whether an answer would satisfy depends more on the nature of the situation than on the questioner. If all the possible answers to the question are bad, that doesn't mean the question should be asked, that means that something bad is going on. Answering the question just brings it out into the open, that's all. Ken Arromdee 05:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

On a similar note

While Jimbo's current idea is designed to increase Misplaced Pages's credibility by focusing on editors, he had another idea a while back to help credibility by focusing on articles. He outlined it in an interview in this article. Basically, it would create 2 versions of pages that reach a threshold of stability, a stable and a live version. The stable version would be shown and the live version would be available to edit. Edits to the live version would have to be approved in some way before they are added to the stable version. My question is: Is this still in the works or has this been pushed to the wayside by other ideas? Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 22:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The suggestion in the article (from late 2005) is

Wales also plans to introduce a 'stable' version of each entry. Once an article reaches a specific quality threshold it will be tagged as stable. Further edits will be made to a separate 'live' version that would replace the stable version when deemed to be a significant improvement. One method for determining that threshold, where users rate article quality, will be trialled early next year.

The problem would be that deeming a new version to replace the stable version would be something like the FA/GA process now. There aren't enough editors involved in that process compared with the large number of fairly mature articles. I'd like to see some kind of stable/approved rating for good articles, but I haven't seen a proposed mechanism for making it work on a wiki of this size. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 23:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

We could just modify FA; make Featured articles, once they are promoted that is, into stable versions. The only problem would be maintenance, deciding which edits go into the stable versions. Having a discussion for it would take way too long, but letting one person (even an admin) decide would seem too autocratic. This may work well on FA's that are overseen by a Wikiproject though. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 00:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm, in many ways, a newbie unqualified for discussion with some of you editing heavyweights. But I don't like the trend I'm seeing in the "stable article" mode of thinking, and I don't care who the idea originally came from. The greatest joy of Misplaced Pages for many people, and I think what draws many, many new users in, is that this is a dynamic, collaborative body of work in which your contributions are instantly visible. It gives somebody like me a chance to be a published author, in a very real way (since this is such a high traffic website and most people with computers use it as a reference at some time or another). To relegate anyone's contributions to the realm of "something that may be added to the article at some point, if your edits combined with everybody else's since the article attained 'stability' are deemed by who the hell knows who to be a 'significant improvement'" seems almost humorously counterproductive. I only have 600 or so edits, but I think the place works damn fine. Most of the articles that this would effect already have people watching over them to make sure that all new information is a.) not vandalism and b.) attributable and constructive. I'm proud of all the editors who make this place run, and I think we're forgetting how far it has come under the present system. If you can't see how needlessly complicated this would be, you haven't thought about it. And it sends a horrible message, that we're so scared of criticisms of credibility that we're willing to sacrifice the basic principle that brings in so many new users. This is not intended as trolling, at all, I'm serious, and I hope I'm not misunderstanding the issue at hand. Sincerely, --Tractorkingsfan 05:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that is what we need to be doing. I don't understand why there has been no movement on it when the idea has been around for so long. Everyking 06:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Checking Essjay's edits

Hi Jimbo,

Because of concerns that user:Essjay used false credentials while editing (or influence the editing) of many articles, I have used Interiot's edit counter to see which articles Essjay edited the most. It is a monumental task to attempt to check all of Essjay's 16,000 edits, but there are only three articles which he edited more than 10 times. I am attempting clean-up, de-POV, and fact-checking of these articles, but am experiencing some resistance from users who feel that "any clearly erroneous edits from two years ago would have long since been found and corrected" and "what exactly is the problem?" However, research indicates these edits are still in the article, and that Essjay or his supporters did use his false credentials to stave off edit disputes. The three articles in question are Roman Catholic Church, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Louisville‎ and Cathedral of the Assumption in Louisville. All other articles were edited less than 10 times by Essjay.

Misplaced Pages requires vigorous fact-checking to maintain its credibility; however, I feel like I'm coming up against a stone wall. I've had to explain my reasons for fact checking (which seems ironic), and have been characterized as "vindictive" and pursuing "ad hominem assaults". Thse comments sadden me, as Essjay was the 'crat who promoted me to Admin. I know that you want what's best for the encyclopedia, which to me means double-checking the facts submitted by an editor (any editor, but certainly one who now has credibility issues).

Please support me in reviewing this material. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

While it may prove unnecessary, I can't fault the effort. If nothing else, the articles may get some useful fine-tuning out of it. Hopefully Essjay was not as dishonest about his actual article edits as he was in other respects, but at this point we can hardly take that on faith alone. Everyking 06:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Well stated, Everyking. I am hoping the review will prove unnecessary, but I feel it cannot hurt to check rigorously any edits which were made by Essjay under false pretenses. These articles are the only ones he appears to have edited "extensively", and they are also the religious ones, a topic he claimed to be an expert on. Despite the amount of resistance I'm getting (not sure if it's because of the status quo or "because it's Essjay"), I'm hoping to finish the reviews in the next couple of days. Firsfron of Ronchester 09:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Call For New Administrator Standards for Hiring

With respect, in light of the Essjay fiasco I would like to suggest new standards for Administrators, both for the Admin's now working and future Admin's.

What we need at Misplaced Pages are REAL standards for Administrators, such as resumes, real names and reference checks...who knows who these people REALLY are ? upstanding citizens? criminals? unemployed druggies? liars like Essjay? there obviously needs to be a NEW set of standards...

Lest Misplaced Pages end up on the Citizendium blog again:

• Citizendium1
• Citizendium2

Yours very truly,

Headphonos 00:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Janitors? ... dave souza, talk 00:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

But should we require some kind of certification in facility management or can we accept practical experience—say, not less than three years—and the reference of the last employer? —xyzzy_n 00:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with this for admins. This seems like far too much work to justify it (background checks for every RfA?). However, for higher authorities: ArbCom, Oversight, and especially CheckUser (access to personal info) I think this could be a good idea. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 00:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

As if ending up on the Citizendium Blog matters. As I stated previously, admins have largely janitorial duties, but they are entrusted with the virtual keys to the building, so they should expect to surrender a certain amount of privacy to the powers that be at Misplaced Pages, which is exactly what Essjay did when he accepted his position at Wikia. I'm not saying that admins shouldn't be allowed to use pseudonyms, but at the very least admins should be required to provide their real name and mailing address to one of Misplaced Pages's bureaucrats and a record of same should be kept on file with Misplaced Pages's lawyers. // Internet Esquire 01:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Except that a) that would be a violation of the Privacy policy, in its current incarnation, and b) bureaucrats are not required to give their real name to Wikimedia; why should admins give their personal info to bureaucrats? Titoxd 01:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please don't take this as a legal opinion or as legal advice, but Wikimedia's privacy policy appears to be silent on this issue. As for your point "b," I'm pretty sure that all current bureaucrats are also admins; ditto for stewards, ArbCom members, and those with checkuser and oversight privileges. The only people in a position of trust at Misplaced Pages who are not also admins are some of the developers. In any event, all of these people should be held to the minimum standards that apply to admins. // Internet Esquire 02:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Privacy policy does not indicate anywhere that I need to give my mailing address to the Wikimedia Foundation. I will not do so, unless an employee of the Foundation requests it, and I know exactly what is going to be done to that information, where it is going to be stored, and how it is going to be protected. I will not provide it to OTRS volunteers, or any other on-wiki functionaries, and I'm sure others will refuse to do so as well, as you're talking about information that is considered sacrosanct by many users here. In fact, the whole desire to have a shroud of privacy is the whole reason this incident occurred. Titoxd 02:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem, you can simply resign as an administrator and become a humble anonymous editor like the rest us nobodies :) Headphonos 02:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Very funny. Now, how about something that actually solves the issue? Titoxd 02:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorrry, Tito, but that's precisely the solution that I was looking for -- i.e., encouraging administrators who want to maintain their anonymous status to step down and become just another registered user. // Internet Esquire 02:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Bingo. You should be able to have anonymity, or have power, on Misplaced Pages, but not BOTH. They should be conjugate variables: the more of one you want, the more of the other you will need to give up. Such is life. It's like position and momentum, or truth and clarity. SBHarris 03:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that is an unacceptable solution, as it sends an extremely discouraging message. This is the encyclopedia that everyone can edit, and if your edits can stand public scrutiny, have been regarded as constructive, and have earned you a position of trust, saying, "Oh, but we don't know your name" is demoralizing to the general editor corps. Besides, it is a horrible idea, because you would be losing half of the workforce of a top-20 website. It is also extremely discouraging to learn that because someone thinks that they deserve the right to know who I am, and where I live, all the countless hours of effort I and others have placed here are inferior to those that can spare the ability to share their name. Not everybody can say who they are in the open; some of us have contractual obligations or personal reasons behind our anonymity. Does that make our knowledge less valid, our abilities less desirable, or our contributions less reliable? Titoxd 02:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, there has to be a new standard at Misplaced Pages....next time it might not be just a liar...but worse...such as a child molestor who hurts a young editor or ??? Headphonos 03:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

As I keep saying, I'd be prepared to give my details to Jimbo, or to a named, accountable officer or employee of the Foundation nominated by Jimbo, on the basis that they are held securely. I think that a lot of us would be willing to do that, but not to give details to another Wiki-functionary. Metamagician3000 03:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Which is my position, exactly. Why should I share my details with heaven knows who? Perhaps it is because I live in a state with a horribly-high rate of identity theft, but unless someone at the Foundation office requests the names, I don't see why I should give them. If the Foundation official requests it, I'm ok with that. Titoxd 03:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And asking minors - who make up a number of our administrators - to reveal personally identifying information would help protect them from child molestors how? You know, I doubt even half of this stuff is really about making the encyclopaedia better. I hear axes grinding. --Sam Blanning 03:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, every volunteer has the right to be anonymous here. InBC 04:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggesting that administrators submit to credential checks is quite honestly one of the most awful ideas I have ever heard. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the Essjay thing that does not address the real problem behind that situation in any way. The problem became real when Essjay used false credentials in a content dispute. Jimbo's idea about optional credential-checking and discouraging credential-boasting in content disputes addresses that perfectly, and nothing else need be done (and I'm not just saying "listen to Jimbo," see my feelings about one of his other ideas above). And even this idea isn't that necessary, because all that matters is that the information is attributable, not that who put it there's background is. To say that credentials are even important in content disputes is like trying to figure out who is most qualified to bring in original research. The only time I'd ever support some kind of 'honesty check' or whatever is maybe in the check user situation, but I don't know much about that anyway so I'll shut up about it. But to say that we should prevent personal information getting into the wrong hands by putting more personal information in more hands is just absurd. --Tractorkingsfan 05:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Essjay Goon Squad

Admins such as Essjay ran goon squads targeting, blocking, harassing, editors who knew too much. The checkuser system was handled by this fraud. Has anyone looked into whether this guy had any knowledge nor skill to verify sockpuppets. This proven fraudster was trusted with handling private info. When he lost some argument and risk being exposed, he would claim the opponent was trolling and get his goon squad to block/ban him. Essjay used irc (primarily) to communicate and scheme to bump off his opponents. In order to avoid radar and any potentially bad publicity, he got his loyal crew (which he presumably) had a hand in promoting to admins to do the 'dirty work.' One such member of his enforcement crew/goon squad is Steel359 (I am not sure if he/it is a sockpuppet Essjay). Efforts to delete his history is part and parcel of this group to hide their connection to this exposed fraudster. 74.112.107.145 02:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This sort of thing is rampant among admins. It is one of the reasons I largely left Misplaced Pages some time ago. 72.153.177.66 02:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If either of you have specific evidence to demonstrate these allegations then contact me and provide diffs and other relevant evidence to connect all the dots. I perform complex investigations and I've been bold enough to issue a block warning to a fellow sysop when I thought it was called for. I'd go farther than that if you build a genuine case - but the burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders. Use my e-mail if you prefer to discuss this confidentially. Durova 05:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you provide diffs of evidence of what you have just said right here in public (ie past evidence of performing 'complex' investigations (whatever that means) and having given a block warning to a fellow sysop). Btw, what are your credentials and can you prove it ? Issuing a block warning has even been done by fellow non admin members here. Why don't we start off by undeleting Essjay activity history... I know some one is going to cite some archaic rule from the community rule books, that admins break by their own whim and fancies anyway. 'Burden of proof' is asked for when the Essjay evidence has been shredded, is there some misstep in logic somewhere or is that the point ? 74.112.107.145 07:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I can personally testify to some of this, because I was once blocked by Essjay while I was in IRC and it was clear to me from the discussion that the official reason given for the block was a pretext. I would be in favor of unblocking anyone still under an Essjay-imposed block, as I have no faith whatsoever that his decisions as an administrator were fair or even honest. I also think we should run a sockcheck soon to establish whether he has any sockpuppets active (or did have some active recently); if we wait too long it will be impossible to know. Everyking 07:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Something is wrong here

I am a relatively new person who has experienced many attacks and accusations from Admins/Bureaucrats without explanation. Things go on behind the scenes and a person like me has to accept what they do on their say so - like being accused of Sockpuppet with no evidence or rationale offered. There are roving gangs. Something needs to change. I feel very bad today. I have a Ph.D. but don't edit articles having to do with my field. I don't think the credentialing idea is a good one. I know nothing about the individual involved except that his archiving bot is gone -- I was using it and it was wonderful. Sincerely, --Mattisse 02:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to the philosophy of Misplaced Pages

I think any new policy that enforces any kind of credential checking is completely contrary to the fundamental “edit this page” philosophy of Misplaced Pages. Efforts should be made to verify the information added to Misplaced Pages rather than the credentials of the individuals who are adding the information. Perhaps, there should be an official policy of anonymity and not allowing any users to state any educational background…? If Misplaced Pages is all about accurate information and comprehensive reference citing, why should we even be discussing what degrees people have? Katalaveno_C 03:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

There are two separate issues here, and in neither of them has anybody suggested complete closure of Misplaced Pages (the nearest we come to THAT now is already when we find it necessary to semi-protect some vandal-magnet articles to editing by new-users, so if you have a problem with this whole meritocracy and reputation thingie, start with that). Nobody is suggesting that anybody have to give up anonymity to edit, only that they may have to give up larger and larger amounts of it to rise in the ranks of bureaucratic power. As for academic credentials, they also have never been suggested as a NECESSARY thing, but it has been suggested that they might serve as one useful ingredient in judging quality and merit of edits between two people in editorial disputes in technical subjects. SBHarris 04:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That is a terrible way to settle an editorial dispute, the correct way is through attribution to a reliable source. InBC 04:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Disclaimer

I agree that credentials will be hard to verify. I also agree that WP:V and WP:RS sources must out-weigh any claims to special knowledge. Misplaced Pages has taken a black eye in the media because the media didn't verify credentials as well they should have. We don't need to add a layer of complexity to our user page policy and administrative processes. We need only a disclaimer that appears automatically at the bottom of each user page stating that this is a user's page and that no claims made on this page have been verified by anyone for any purpose. Rklawton 04:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

What's so horrible about telling users not to make things up? That doesn't mean we have to verify every claim of every user, only those who are entrusted with special responsibilities. Further, of course we cannot prevent fabrications from occuring, any more than we can prevent abusive sockpuppetry, but we can make examples of those who are caught. A simple code of no-brainer ethics with intermittent enforcement would make it pretty much like any of our other policies. Perhaps that's not enough, but it would seem a good start.Proabivouac 05:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a lot of extra work for no material gain. Rklawton 05:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it will save us work by heading off problems before they happen.

An example of some simple ethical rules which all editors should follow, and should recommit themselves to at every point of promotion:

• Don't claim academic or professional credentials you don't really have.
• Don't impersonate anyone else.
• Don't lie to the press or to the public.
• Don't pretend to represent Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia foundation.
• Don't threaten anyone off-wiki. In situations where this seems necessary, contact the office.
• If you do any of these things, you will face the loss of administrative responsibilities and/or be banned. So, don't do them.

The "disclaimer" idea will take us in precisely the wrong direction. We should be trying to be credible and respectable, not blameless in some technical (caveat emptor!) sense.

See User:Proabivouac/Ethics for dummies.Proabivouac 08:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

In my humble opinion this is best approached overall by a deprecation of any claim to authority or academic credentials. If such a claim is made on a user page, I think it should be lightly verified but even so, claims to academic authority in edit disputes should be banned outright. For those in positions of trust (arbcomm and CU, spokesperson speaking for WP and so on) there should be a more rigorous, internal and confidential background check, as with any responsible org. Gwen Gale 08:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

So we drive away the editors who are most likely to make such claims - actual authorities? The point should be, don't make stuff up, in mainspace, in talk space or in user space. The opposite approach, "assume everything you see here is made up," is exactly the wrong direction.Proabivouac 09:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If they're true experts they won't mind :) What I'm saying is, ban CVs on user pages unless they've been lightly verified. Ban the assertion of a CV in any editing dispute. Anyone who knows their field (or an educated editor who knows how to source) can run circles around a crank using existing WP citation policies. Oh and change the admin selection process. As it is now, this is a buddy system which encourages wheel wars and edit disputes and sends experts screaming to the log out link. Who wants to get a "warning" from a socially frustrated 14 year old middle school boy whose clueless admin buddy has asked him on IRC to come over and find something trivial to nettle you with? Gwen Gale 09:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Another point: admins shouldn't be minors, while Bureaucrats and ArbCom members should be well over (for example) 24. Age is the great unspoken factor uniting many of Misplaced Pages's biggest problems. It's stupid to pretend it doesn't matter.Proabivouac 09:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A responsible, motivated adolescent can do wonders in repetitive, process based tasks, never mind some can make wonderful edits. For that matter I've been harassed and wikistalked by middle aged psycho admins (scary stuff, mind). So yeah, superficially the notion of putting an age limit on admins sounds ok but when I think about it, I don't care how old an admin is, I care about the admin's behaviour. Gwen Gale 09:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's like saying, I don't care about the driver's age, but their driving ability, before handing the keys to a thirteen-year old. Well, sure, but. Young people are known for their energy, creativity, intelligence, enthusiasm...and poor judgement. Doesn't that sum up Essjay, really?Proabivouac 09:35, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A car can easily kill someone. It's not the same thing. So far as Essjay goes, that's all Jimbo's fault. Essjay got sucked into Misplaced Pages's seductive MUDdy side and Misplaced Pages referred him to Schiff and actually sent him skipping and traipsing off to the New Yorker with his MUD CV, clueless. Essjay was responsible for losing touch with reality or whatever but Wales and the WMF are wholly responsible for the meta consequences beyond the damage to Essjay's personal life. Again, there are lots of middle aged wankers around here who lie all the time. It's not an age thing at all. Erm, besides, they say Essjay's 24, that's no teen. Gwen Gale 09:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not all Jimbo's fault. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the community (?) made Essjay administrator and then bureaucrat. Jimbo erred in trusting the community to vet its own (and this problem is hardly confined to Essjay).

24 is old enough to be a good mop-wielder, but too young for project-level responsibilities.Proabivouac 09:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

(Dropping in for a quick comment-and-run...)
The thing that does bother me sometimes is the kids closing XfD discussions. They typically just count !votes and close as far as I can tell...not a lot of judgement being applied by certain admins that I'm fairly sure are minors. —Doug Bell  09:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yep. That poor judgement (or worse) is wontedly an artifact of the buddy system. Admins are not selected for their judgement, they're mostly selected for having supported past RfAs. Everybody knows about this. Why isn't it changed? Gwen Gale 09:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why Credentials?

Allow me to preface my comments to this briefly: Although I've been a member of the English Misplaced Pages for some time now, I am by no means an expert in all things Wiki, nor do I claim to be. Secondly, the whole User:Essjay fiasco is rather new to me. Although I have been slightly following the issue (who hasn't?) I am again, by no means an expert. Feel free to poke holes in, puncture, ventilate, and/or mutilate my arguement as you see fit.

Now, I think that at the heart of this debate is the idea of credentials having weight on Misplaced Pages. And although I think Jimbo's plan to check credentials is a good one, I'm still confused as to why credentials have to carry weight. After all, if everyone can edit, it's to be assumed that some will be better editors than others, and likewise, some will be more knowledgable in a certain sector than another. So why do people have to whip out their credentials? Misplaced Pages is supposed to be peer edited, and in my opinion, it seems that by essentially "pulling rank" on another editor by using external credentials (degrees, carreers, etc.) said "more educated/better" editor is immediately setting themselves above their peers. And granted, I'm just a beginner, but it seems like that sort of pseudo-caste system is an anathema to what Misplaced Pages desires to be. Why not have a "No exterior credentials" policy?

Thanks for your input! Belril 05:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, why not do the same at any teaching institution? Why pay attention to any particular person, in a classroom? Why is one guy teaching and the others listening? Why is one guy giving grades and the others getting the grades? Why are some people paying for an "education", and other people getting the money they pay? When you have the answers to these difficult questions, you may see that they also apply here, too. You know, the world has worked on these questions before. Any time now, Jimbo's actually going to start to re-invent the idea of a university. Wow, like inventing fire! The wheel! SBHarris 06:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

At a university, and unlike Misplaced Pages, OR and POV are permitted, so credentials make a great deal of difference. Rklawton 06:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you'll have to expand that argument, since it's not so obvious. Higher education would also function disconnected from OR, and in fact many tech schools and Normal Schools do so. As for POV, it's a myth that Misplaced Pages functions without it. The other word for it is called "thinking." Or, if you prefer, "the human reasoning process." But denial is a wonderful thing, and you're welcome to your own POV that there's no POV here. Let's hear it for faith. SBHarris 09:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I just went and looked at Economics for less than 20 seconds. Under Areas of economics there are two specialties with subsections. Both are cited. The first is "Mesoconomics", I've never heard of at all (am a research professor). A search on Econlit, which indexes the abstracts of all scholarly journals related to economics and covers tens of thousands of articles, shows 3 uses of this term in refereed journals. The second is "Picoeconomics". Again, I've never heard of it. Econlit shows 0 hits in refereed journals.

Do you understand what this means? The Misplaced Pages article on economics highlights exactly two topics in the section "Areas of economics". They are cited. Between them, these two areas have 3 mentions in the journal abstracts. Now, I don't know how they got there, because I long ago lost patience editing in my field. But, it's an effing joke. No, pay no heed at all to people who might know what the hell they're talking about. And this is what you get. Pathetic. Derex 06:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sofixit! ... ;) ... dave souza, talk 09:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Come on. You're misrepresenting what that article says. It mentions the two major areas of study, micro and macro, and mentions the other two as only areas that a few researchers have suggested. It's useful information and by no means some kind of indication of the failure of Misplaced Pages. You seem to be pissed about something, but that's weak evidence. --Tractorkingsfan 06:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, these other areas seem to be getting massive undue weight per WP:NPOV, and should probably be removed altogether, but this can be discussed on the article talk page rather than here. JoshuaZ 06:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I hear you, though "massive" is a bit much. I was just replying to the above user's overall tone, which I found disturbing considering a selective application of what the article says: "exactly two" when there are four areas mentioned, etc. It just doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, and by no means an "effing joke." --Tractorkingsfan 06:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Which two had their own headings? That you think it's not that big a deal illustrates that you simply know nothing about the field. There are dozens of major fields in economics. It's a ludicrous embarassment. It's an instant signal to anyone who knows anything about economics that the article is a joke. I don't know whether the rest of it is, because I didn't even bother after seeing that in the TOC. Derex 07:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay. You're right, I do know nothing about it. Please see what I have to say on your talk page. --Tractorkingsfan 07:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"I do know nothing about it." WAS 4.250 07:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why would you be like that? All I'm saying is he/she, who is such a goddamn expert, has the power to change the article but would rather bitch about it. Man, I was trying to be nice. Hope it feels good to make me feel stupid. --Tractorkingsfan 07:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Derex has just described what, for me, is the big motor for improvement in Misplaced Pages – someone noticing something wrong, which impels them to research it and make a well substantiated change. An impediment to that process is pov pushers who feel they know better or are trying to use the page to put over their position, and who would be the first to claim priority because of their credentials. It can be a struggle and undoubtedly off-putting to academics used to their authority carrying weight, but here authority must be based on verifiable sources clearly and fairly presented. The success of this project comes, in my opinion, from it being a forum open to all and not a hierarchy of academic rankings. Derex prefers to edit in other areas – should these edits then be discounted because of lack of qualifications? Many pages have problems, and we should be open about that – and fix problems we find. .. dave souza, talk 09:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It was Derex who made me come to the stunning conclusion that I've never edited here in my fields of expertise. Argh! I thought it was laziness but now I'm not so sure (I think it was self-inflicted avoidance of emotional trauma or whatever :). Anyway as I say, the fix is to ban the assertion of credentials in edits, which should be supported by strong citations anyway and which an expert easily knows how to find and apply. Gwen Gale 09:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Verification

One useful thing that verifying credentials would do, is to address the concern that comes up frequently on WP:RS and WP:ATT (formerly WP:V) about the use of primary sources. There is language there, to the effect that it's sometimes difficult to interpret primary sources and you need to be an expert in that field, etc etc. If we can see that user X is a Ph.D. in Particle Physics then when they describe the spin of the tau neutrino, we'd have a bit of faith that they know what they are talking about. Personally I would have no problem being verified myself in my fields of expertise. Wjhonson 07:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

One must ever be wary of straying into original research. I have no worries about an expert with lightly verified credentials posted on a user page editing an article in their field so long as a) they don't ever assert those credentials (but instead assert citations on the topic at hand) and b) research which has not been peer-reviewed through verifiable secondary sources doesn't creep in. As I've said before, most academics are thoroughly trained in how to support their assertions with published citations and moreover, with a bit of patience and heed it's not so hard to do away with cranks by following WP's existing citation policies. Gwen Gale 08:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Articles linked from high traffic sites