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Taganrog

Current version states: 'Arkhip Kuindzhi was born in January 1842 (1841?) in Mariupol (nowadays Ukraine), but spent his youth in the city of Taganrog'. This is incorrect. Kuindzhi moved to Taganrog in 1860 when he was 18, i.e. already an adult by the standards of XIX century. --Gennadiy Kornev (talk) 10:52, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Multiple vandalism from russian accounts

I mentioned specific activity of q-wert-273 user, who administrates russian wikipedia and pro-actively shot down all changes to the same article but in russian part of wiki. So, now he does the same here. I see that this user monitoring article during the day just to change the nationality of ukrainian artist. I think such actions should be seeing as part of russia hybrid war that is very active on the wikipedia too. Article about ukrainians in wiki ALWAYS under control of a lot of russian admins and bots, who rewrite everything as it was russian and belongs to them. It's sad to see that english speaking admins do not punish such users as q-wert-273 in the context of big threat and hybrid war which is directed against Ukraine right now. Ґендерний Джихад (talk) 11:16, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Kuindzhi was a Greek born in the Russian Empire. So the vandals here are only those who call him Ukrainian. -Bladeness (talk) 11:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

q-wert-273 user, who administrates russian wikipedia — What are you even talking about? Q-Wert-273 (talk) 16:45, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

What I did was reverting vandalism and adding sources. And you need to stop vilifying users based on their nationality, calling them bots and chauvinists, and implying that they take part in some organized aggression. This is against Misplaced Pages's policy of Civility. Q-Wert-273 (talk) 04:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Bladeness, Russian Empire wasn't homogeneous, a lot of nations and ethnicities lived there. The same as in Britain Empire etc. Someone born in Russian Empire ≠ this person is russian. Kuindzhi raised in ukrainian ethnic lands and then his ukrainian background influenced his works, a lot of them are about Ukraine and ukrainians. Ґендерний Джихад (talk) 13:58, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

A lot of his works are about Caucasus too. Should we call him Caucasian painter? And what does his ethnicity have to do with this? He was from the Russian Empire (short: Russia). Therefore he was a Russian painter. Alexxzz123 (talk) 19:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, all denying of his ukrainian nationality and roots (born in ukrainian ethnic lands, raised among ukrainians) and chauvinism comes from russian accounts.

Ґендерний Джихад (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

You should read WP:ETHNICITY 46.191.138.245 (talk) 04:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

So, then what's the point to write that someone is "russian"?) Ґендерний Джихад (talk) 10:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

"What's the difference whose artist? It does not matter" but the Russians will still write that the artist is theirs. Sad joke: artists of different nationalities entered the Russian Academy of Arts, but when graduating everyone was called Russian artists Pierrte (talk) 20:16, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages follows what reliable sources say. You are making a change without citing a reliable source, see WP:V before making such edits. Mellk (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 April 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

not a Russian painter, but Ukrainian! 89.144.218.85 (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect edit reversal

I have recently made 2 changes: 1. Highlighting the fact that the painter is considered to be not only Russian (being born and active in Russian empire), but also Ukrainian (being born in Ukraine, although under Russian control, and depicting Ukrainian landscapes). This is also supported by some of the links already provided on the page. 2. Fixed juxtaposition, between the place of birth and the place of youth - in fact they were both parts of Ekaterinoslav Governorate.

However, both of my changes were reverted by JJMC89 bot III.

Can the bot be stopped from making the reversal? Igorre25 (talk) 02:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

No, becuase JJMC89 bot doesn't do that. I did, because it's introducing an anachronism, as it says twice already. Calling him Ukrainian would be like calling Trajan a Spaniard. The country simply did not exist at the time. It may be unfair, or even wrong, but it's history, and it's been already discussed on this very talk page twice in the last six months. Re-litigating this won't do anyone any good. Sumanuil. 06:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry Sumanuil, but your analogy is not correct. The fact that Ukraine was occupied by the Russian Empire does not mean that people born there stop being Ukrainians. The fact that Poland was occupied and didn't exist for more than a century doesn't deny the fact that Chopin, who was born when there was no Poland, is considered Polish composer. As I mentioned earlier, some of the links provided on the page also state that Kuindzhi is considered to be a Ukrainian painter. The same approach is applied to many people born in imperial states - they could be considered not only a part of imperial heritage, but also of the colonial one.

Also, why the correction about the Taganrog was reverted? Igorre25 (talk) 19:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Being born within the borders of modern-day Ukraine does not automatically make someone a Ukrainian, sorry. We do not say Kant was a Russian because he was born in modern-day Kaliningrad. Also because of WP:V. Mellk (talk) 23:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

And using the term "occupied" is some kind of WP:FRINGE. Mellk (talk) 23:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that I should have used the term "colonized" instead of "occupied".

Your arguments seem to imply that colony doesn't have any claim on any cultural heritage on its territory for the period of being a colony, but it doesn't make any sense.

For WP:V see references 1 and 11.

Igorre25 (talk) 06:06, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The example of Kant perfectly contradicts the reason provided for the reversal of my edits. When Kant lived, there was no such country as Germany, but he still is considered a German philosopher. Igorre25 (talk) 06:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

And we have WP:POV. Mellk (talk) 12:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

How my changes would contradict that? I'm just confirming that Kuindzhi is not only Russian, but also a Ukrainian painter. How that breaks WP:POV? Igorre25 (talk) 15:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The relevant guideline for that is MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Mellk (talk) 16:04, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Which says “country, region, or territory … where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident.” Ukraine is a country, region, or territory which was colonized by Russia. Ukrainian artist and others have been traditionally called “Russian” according to colonial-era historiography, but this has been changing in recent decades of post-colonial academic practice of history, especially after the collapse of the Soviet empire, and increasingly after the 2014 start of the war and the 2022 invasion.

So Ukrainian and Russian may either or both be valid identifications for subjects. The guideline doesn’t help determine how to resolve the question in individual cases. Best consult recent reliable sources.  —Michael Z. 15:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

He wasn't a citizen of Ukraine, which did not exist at the time, he wasn't ethnically Ukrainian, he did not, to my knowledge, use (or know) Ukrainian in any capacity whatsoever, and (again, to my knowledge) he did not express any desire for Ukraine to be an independent country (and to be a part of that polity). How can he be labelled Ukrainian? Because the city he was born in ended up in independent Ukraine after 1991? Just because some sources call him Ukrainian do to them projecting the present-day nation into the past, which is wrong, doesn't mean we should do the same. As mentioned by another user, we do not call Trajan a Spaniard because Spain did not exist at the time (in spite of the region of Hispania being a thing), even though some sources actually (and mistakenly) do so. Ostalgia (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Your WP:OR interpretations and second-guessing of the sources doesn’t change that they are reliable, or change what they say. You have no basis to discount them.

@Ostalgia, this page is under WP:ACDS (Eastern Europe and the Balkans). Please undo your revert and we can continue the discussion. —Michael Z. 22:02, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not WP:OR to look at a source and notice that factual, easily verifiable information contained by it is inaccurate, otherwise we would have to add, as mentioned, that Trajan was Spanish on the basis of reliable sources having done so. As stated by WP:MOS, Avoid anachronism. An article about Junípero Serra should say he lived in Alta Mexico, not in California, because the latter entity did not yet exist in Serra's time. Perhaps ironically, that particular statement might be challengeable, but the underlying logic is still sound. Ostalgia (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

That is quite wrong, to put it politely.

Why don’t you set a precedent correcting major articles like the one about “Italian” sculptor Michelangelo, who died centuries before there was a state called Italy. And the one about “German” composer Johann Sebastian Bach, who was never a citizen of Germany. Explain to other editors how all the sources are wrong about them.

Then move on to articles about “Russians” who never lived during the existence of a state called Russia, like Mikhail Kaneev, Lev Russov, etcetera.

It’s unfair to start by picking on an until recently colonized nation like the Ukrainians. —Michael Z. 03:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Because Michelangelo can be considered an ethnic Italian, used the Italian language, and considered himself and was considered by contemporaries to be Italian, even when there was no independent polity that united all the tiny principalities (as an aside, the notion of a Kingdom of Italy did exist on paper, even if not independent). Furthermore, Michelangelo, as did many of his contemporaries, did not stay in one principality but moved around the territory of present-day Italy. I don't think anyone will object to stating that an ethnic Italian who spoke Italian, considered himself Italian, was considered Italian by his contemporaries, and was important throughout the Italian peninsula is Italian. Same goes for Germans.

A similar, but not necessarily equivalent, case is that of members of nations/ethnic groups within larger, multinational empires who nevertheless stressed that they were a distinct people. One such case is that of ethnic Poles born within the Russian Empire, Prussia or the Habsburg Empire after the partitions, or (closer to your heart) that of people like Taras Shevchenko - an ethnic Ukrainian who actively stressed his "Ukrainianness", which clearly takes precedence over the fact that he was also a Russian subject and a member of the Russian Imperial Academy of Arts.

For both sets of situations mentioned above the relevant guideline, I believe, would be MOS:ETHNICITY, because it's their ethnicity/"nationality" that is relevant to the subject's notability.

In every other case the guideline says to mention the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. As the article clearly states, Kuindzhi was not an ethnic Ukrainian (and he did not become famous due to his Greek origins), nor was he a citizen of Ukraine (easily verified by checking the fact that no independent Ukrainian state existed until years after Kuindzhi died). There are no grounds to call him Ukrainian except for the fact that he was born in territory that today is part of Ukraine.

And by all means, don't "put it politely". I much prefer sincere bluntness to hypocritical innuendo. Ostalgia (talk) 12:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

You are cherry-picking different criteria where it suits your argument, so it is inconsistent.

And misquoting the guideline, which actually says “the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen . . . where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.” Although known by several names, Ukraine has always been a definable country, region, and territory during historical times, and Ukraine is the homeland of Pontic Greeks, as well as of Ukrainians in the ethnic, cultural, regional, and civic senses.

That is why these authoritative and relatively recent sources identify him with the country where he came from and executed his important and characteristic works, not the empire it was colonized by.  —Michael Z. 16:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I had not replied to this as I was busy at ANI, as you know, where you seem to have dropped all semblance of civility to baselessly accuse me of echoing calls for genocide in Ukraine. I do prefer sincere bluntness but accusations of genocide are a bit over the top, don't you think?

First of all, I will address the issue of sources, starting from the fact that the quote "The most prominent Russian artists of the 1870s and 1880s, including Ivan Kramskoy, Ilya Repin, Vasily Surikov, Vasily Perov, and Vasily Vereshchagin, belonged to this group, as did the lesser known Arkhip Kuindzhi" excludes Kuindzhi from the group of "Russian artists", when it quite clearly excludes him from the "prominent" category, not from the "Russian" one. Plenty of other sources call him Russian: , , , , . I do not know why you seem it feet to override all other sources to impose your own.

Secondly, you make a bizarre claim here by stating that lthough known by several names, Ukraine has always been a definable country, region, and territory during historical times. This is a bizarre claim. Literally no country in the history of humanity has always been definable. The claim that this is so even though it's been through many names is quite literally what MOS:PLACE is about - Gaul may roughly correspond to the territory of France, but it is not France. You're freely projecting the present into the past as if the current state of affairs were inevitable. Do you think Pavlo Skoropadsky thought of being Hetman of an independent Ukraine (which, by the way, had different borders to modern-day Ukraine!) while Major General in the Russian Imperial Army and a member of Nicholas II's retinue in 1912? He probably would've laughed at the proposition.

Third, regarding MOS:ETHNICITY, I do not understand what is unclear. Arkhip Kuindzhi was a subject of the Russian Empire at the time, I do not think that fact is up for discussion. He was also an ethnic Greek, but he did not become notable on account of his ethnicity, although it is worth having it listed (and it is). He is not, to my knowledge, known to have used the Ukrainian language, or to have expressed an opinion favourable to the independence of Ukraine, or to have expressed himself on the topic at all (unlike, say, the ethnic Pole Antonovych, who actively chose "Ukraininanness"). I repeat: what makes him Ukrainian, other than the fact that the city where he was born would be part of Ukraine years after he died, something that was not only not a given, but that he played no role in (nor intended to play a role in, AFAWK)?

Finally, you are literally claiming that Ukraine is the homeland of Pontic Greeks. This is a frankly insane claim in that not only does it ignore centuries, even millennia of history (Greeks have lived around the Black Sea from way before Ukraine, or Rus' for that matter, was even a thing), but carries the tacit implication that every Pontic Greek is theoretically Ukrainian, which is mindblowing and fundamentally denies every sort of agency to these people. The fact that you want to shed the "Russian" label from people you perceive as Ukrainians, but don't see the contradiction in imposing the "Ukrainian" label on people who are not Ukrainian by any rational, not anachronic metric, particularly when they belong to a minority, shows an astonishing lack of self awareness. Ostalgia (talk) 17:29, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I won’t repeat myself by pointing out several problems with your arguments. I’ll just point out that your conclusion seems to denigrate the published statements of Getty Research, Oxford Art Online, the Benezit Dictionary of Artists, and curators at the Metropolitan Museum of Art “irrational.”

I did not accuse you of genocide. I pointed out that offensive statements about Ukrainian nationality like the ones you insist on using as guidance in writing articles have now become part of genocide incitement by the Russian state, according to reliable sources, and one is definitely unlikely to continue getting away with such public speech for much longer.  —Michael Z. 18:35, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm looking at the list of the Ukrainian painters of the same period: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Ukrainian_artists. Why Apollon Mokritsky is specified as Ukrainian, but Arkhip Kuindzhi from the same list cannot be identified as such? Igorre25 (talk) 05:11, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

These pages are always subject to edit warring and POV pushing, so one day a certain page may say "Ukrainian", other day "Russian", other day "Russian–Ukrainian", other day "Soviet" etc. Mellk (talk) 18:03, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Still, in this case we're talking about an ethnic Greek who never lived in an independent Ukraine. Sumanuil. 20:04, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

His father was Greek, but his mother, according to some websites, and which is very likely, was Ukrainian. So, he can also be considered ethically Ukrainian. Igorre25 (talk) 05:58, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Please provide those sources. Sumanuil. 04:04, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

The cited sources keep being removed. Here they are for posterity:

Arkhip Ivanovich Kuindzhi . . . was a Ukrainian landscape painter of Pontic Greek descent active in the Russian Empire.

Some arguments made above are straw men or otherwise irrelevant:

• “Wasn't a citizen of Ukraine, which did not exist at the time”
• “He wasn't ethnically Ukrainian”
• “He did not express any desire for Ukraine to be an independent country”
• “An Ethnic Greek”
• “Never lived in an independent Ukraine”

These are colonial arguments that denigrate Ukrainian identity. They are not a basis for disqualifying sources inconvenient for WP:righting great wrongs. Furthermore, they are offensive and should not be tolerated in discussions, much less on an article subject to discretionary sanctions. —Michael Z. 22:11, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The Oxford Art online source is sufficient for me. Volunteer Marek 14:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica and the Metropolitan Museum of Art both explicitly title him as Russian. I don't see why these sources are being removed from the article. Q-Wert-273 (talk) 09:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

In the days of Kuindzhi the area of Mariupol where he was born was considered a part of newly-settled multiethnic territory called Novorossiya, and whether Novorossiya (or specific areas of it) was a part of Ukraine was an ambiguous question, because there was no unit called Ukraine back then. The idea of defining some historical figure's nationality by the present-day borders is very dubious. Extrapolating borders drawn by the Soviet authorities in the 20th century into the 19th century is anachronistic. And there is nothing "offensive" in stating that.

Take as example German philosopher Immanuel Kant, who was born in the present-day Russian city of Kaliningrad (and he even was a Russian subject during Russia's control over Prussia). We wouldn't rebrand him as Russian, right? Q-Wert-273 (talk) 09:12, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Britannica does not have an article on Kuindzhi. The site’s own text search returns no results on his name. The link you cited is a placeholder, not a source for any information: there is no authorship, no article history, no references. Britannica mentions him in passing in only one article, on the Peredvizhniki, text apparently last updated in 2000, where it says “The most prominent Russian artists of the 1870s and 1880s, including Ivan Kramskoy, Ilya Repin, Vasily Surikov, Vasily Perov, and Vasily Vereshchagin, belonged to this group, as did the lesser known Arkhip Kuindzhi,” explicitly excluding him from “Russian artists.”

The Met link is not bad (not sure if it’s a secondary source). It says he was “born along the coast in Mariupol, when the Ukrainian city was part of the Russian Empire. . . . Today, Kuindzhi is celebrated in both Ukraine and Russia.” And look at the sources it cites, including these:

• Mariupol museum dedicated to 19th-century artist Arkhip Kuindzhi destroyed by airstrike, according to local media, which notes his Greek descent and both Russian and Ukrainian claims to his cultural legacy.
• How the Ukrainian painter Arkhip Kuindzhi laid out the spirituality in nature before Russian eyes – “his homeland, Ukraine”
• Ukraine’s cultural casualties, which includes Kuindzhi’s work among Ukraine’s cultural heritage.
• Visual Arts Interview: Oleksandra Kovalchuk on “Saving Ukrainian Art” – quotes a curator about the Met’s own label on this very painting: “‘It took us some time to make sure that the label on the work mentions that Arkhip Kuindzhi is a Ukrainian artist, because he was always labeled as Russian,’ Kovalchuk said. ‘In this way, Russia has always been not only trying to steal our art but also to steal Ukrainian artists.’”

 —Michael Z. 17:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Your own argument denying Ukraine’s existence and touting “Kaliningrad” (ethnically cleansed of Germans by the Soviets, as was Crimea of Crimean Tatars) and “New Russia” are poorly formed and somewhat offensive colonial rhetoric. —Michael Z. 17:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

References

1. "Independent Legal Analysis of the Russian Federation's Breaches of the Genocide Convention in Ukraine and the Duty to Prevent" (PDF). New Lines Institute for Strategy and Policy; Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights. 27 May 2022. Archived (PDF) from the original on 2022-06-16. Retrieved 2022-07-22.
2. "Three Years For Stealing Painting From Moscow's Tretyakov Gallery". rferl.org. 25 September 2019.
3. "Kuindzhi, Arkhip: ULAN Full Record Display". Union List of Artist Names (Getty Research). Retrieved 2022-12-17. Ukrainian painter ... Nationalities: Ukrainian (preferred) / Russian
4. Archer, Kenneth (2003), "Kuindzhi, Arkhip", Oxford Art Online, Oxford University Press, doi:10.1093/gao/9781884446054.article.t048219, retrieved 2022-12-17, Ukrainian painter, active in Russia.
5. "Kuindzhi, Arkhip", Benezit Dictionary of Artists, Oxford University Press, 2016-01-20, doi:10.1093/benz/9780199773787.article.b2290268, retrieved 2022-12-17, Russian/Ukrainian ... Of Greek Ukrainian origin
6. "Arkhip Ivanovich Kuindzhi | Russian painter | Britannica". www.britannica.com. Retrieved 2022-01-27.
7. "Arkhip Ivanovich Kuindzhi | Red Sunset on the Dnieper | The Metropolitan Museum of Art". www.metmuseum.org. Retrieved 2022-01-27.

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