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Sigma Xi

Bi deleted note that Wallace is a member of Sigma Xi. I contacted Sigma Xi, and they said he is an "active member." Anyone can contact them if they need to verify that. What a ridiculous deletion from Bi, anyway --who is going to lie about something so easily verified? RJII 06:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. DGG tells us that "there are over 60,000 members , and anyone with a PhD is eligible." So whether Wallace is a member of Sigma Xi is moot anyway; it's just an insignificant piece of information. Bi 07:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed an external link

...because it didn't seem relevant at all—or am I missing something? RJII added it, but it looks like he's been blocked, so I can't ask him. (Here's the latest diff) --zenohockey 04:14, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm back. That site used to have some information on the death and funeral but it's been archived. No need for the link anymore. RJII 04:51, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This page is possibly inaccurate

This page states that Frank R Wallace is dead. The date it states he died is prior to the date the Better Business Bureau states he appeared before them to negotiate Neo-Tech's membership with them.

Report on BBB.org's website for Neo-Tech Publishing:
http://worf.usshurdman.com/~vegas/commonreport.html?compid=48788
Scroll to bottom section with notes regarding activity and events.

I would suggest that someone verify that the man on this page is indeed deceased. Business documentation would suggest otherwise.

If it would be of assistance to anyone this is the information I have collected:

Name: Wallace Ward (unknown middle name/initial)
AKA: Frank R. Wallace
Birth: 10 Sep 1932
Alleged Death: 26 Jan 2006
Place of Death: Henderson, Nevada, USA
SSN: 123-24-9841
Last Residence: Henderson, Nevada, USA 89074

Department of Vital Records for Henderson, NV: +1 (702) 759-1011
Death Certificate verification is done between 8:00 AM and 9:00 AM MST.

I have not yet been able to call them during this one hour window to verify. If someone is able to verify this information please post your results on this talk page.

Thanks,

Cliffordwagner

I suspect that the Wallace Ward mentioned by the BBB is actually his son, Wallace Ward Jr. But someone should really check up on this. Bi 16:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Old Neo-Tech philosophy talk page

Just for the record: part of the article was merged from "Neo-Tech (philosophy)", and here's the talk page for the old article. Bi

(uncivil comment removed Bi 11:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC))

Linkspam from Nathan Shaw

I zapped two extra links which were added in the latest edit, because

• the links give undue weight to Neo-Tech's viewpoint, and besides are added in violation of conflict of interest guidelines;
• the links are described in obviously non-neutral language;
• and finally, Nathan Shaw, the editor who added the links, is a known spammer, which makes it hard to believe that the edit was done out of good faith.

-- Bi 19:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Disruption=

Bi, you're being really disruptive. You're deleting cited material. You object that one source is a book that's included in a "poker kit" and deleting lots of other cited information with it. The book in the poker kit is a real book with a real ISBN number. Don't delete it. And what is your excuse for deleting all the other cited info? Bridge & Tunnel 07:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Notability?

I'm having a very difficult time finding anything that would lead me to believe this guy is notable. The books cited as sources basically are just a name drop, and all the newspaper ones are obituaries. I can't find a thing else, does anyone have anything? Seraphimblade 07:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to put sources in, but user "Bi" keeps deleting them. Look at all the books he's written: His book "Advanced Concepts of Poker" is a classic that all professional poker players are familiar with. He's also cited in other books. Bridge & Tunnel 07:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Bridge & Tunnel, I'm sure Seraphimblade also did check out your versions of the page. And yeah, they're just name-dropping, from sources which are themselves of dubious provenance. Bi 07:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

They're published books with ISBN numbers. Bridge & Tunnel 07:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Bi, you really need to stop being disruptive. Bridge & Tunnel 07:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I did indeed check Bridge & Tunnel's version of the page, hence the reference to the books he cited. There are a lot of "real books with ISBN numbers", that doesn't establish notability, nor reliability. Seraphimblade 07:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Then what does, in your opinion? Bridge & Tunnel 07:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

For reliability, academic peer-review or editorial fact-checking establishes that for a publication. For notability, the question isn't "Did he write?" but "Did people write about him?" (Remember that means "about" him, not just that they dropped his name, but that they actually devoted a significant amount of work to that person.) Seraphimblade 07:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact that he has written tons of books and that third party books have talked about him and cited his books is good enough. But also he has been in the news and law books for successfully challenging the wording of the oath that one takes in court. Court cases cite his case as a notable and classic case. Bridge & Tunnel 07:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

That would do it, though in that case we may want to move the article to be about the case rather then the person. What law books or news sources are those? The one news source I see just mentions the case in passing. Seraphimblade

I also provided source which were books about poker saying that Wallace's poker book was a "seminal" work. It's a classic. That in itself is good enough as well. Bridge & Tunnel 07:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

(indent reset) Someone saying someone else wrote a "seminal" work doesn't in itself do it-that would do more to enhance the notability of the book then the author, but in either case the person saying it would have to have some credentials as a reliable authority on such things. Also, what were those citations of the legal case? That really might make for an interesting article on the case. Seraphimblade 09:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense what you're saying. If someone's books are notable then the author is notable because he's the author of the books. Do we make a separate article for each book than an author writes on Misplaced Pages? Of course not. We note the author and list the books. Bridge & Tunnel 05:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a citation from a legal textbook which has a pretty good sized discussion about it. Wallace has a good point in that case. How can one guarantee he is speaking the truth when he testifies? The most one can do is speak what he believes to be the truth, which is simply to be honest. Bridge & Tunnel 07:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

"That doesn't make any sense" isn't an excuse for you to go on an edit spree. If you genuinely don't understand what someone's saying, ask for clarification. If you're using "doesn't make any sense" as an excuse to shut people out, then stop. Bi 11:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive editing reported on WP:ANI. Bi 11:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You're the one being disruptive. Someone put up a notice requesting sources and evidence of notability. You're deleting the information when I add it. You can't pretend that Wallace is not notable by deleting the evidence of his notability. Bridge & Tunnel 20:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Bridge & Tunnel, you and I have both been advised by User:Robdurbar to discuss changes on this talk page, instead of unilaterally editing the article. Why can't you just do that? Bi 08:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

False. Nowhere in the above discussion was a suggesiton brought up to "discuss changes on the talk page first." I don't have to "discuss" adding sources before I add them anyway. To delete information that is sourced, which is what you have been doing is disruptive. I was asked by Robdurbar above to provide source, which is what I have been doing. He asked me to provide a law book source and I have. You've been deleting it. Now you're trying to delete the article. What is your problem? Bridge & Tunnel 17:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Robdurbar gave the advice on your talk page. Bi 07:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that, as a prolific author and leader of a movement that is an offshoot of a major modern philosophy (Objectivism), Wallace merits an article. I think the call for deletion is too harsh; maybe some more citations should be added instead. Mike1981 20:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll have to honour the decision not to delete. However I still disagree on Bridge & Tunnel using those sources of his with regard to this article, so I've started an RFC on this. Bi 07:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge hidden Neo-Tech Neo-Tech article into this one

Here is the hidden Neo-Tech article Neo-Tech. I think it should be merged into this one, or better yet re-created. Bi put it up for deletion awhile back and unfortunately it was deleted; I think wrongly deleted. JoeMystical 03:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I looked on the discussion page on that article and it said there was a vote to merge that article with this one. So it looks like it was supposed to be done anyway but no one got around to it apparently. Bridge & Tunnel 14:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

That's right. I forgot that the vote was to merge the article into this one. So let's do it. I'll start working on that if no one else does. JoeMystical 03:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: acceptable sources

I hereby put the following matter up for WP:RFC/PHIL: can the following books be used as sources for this article?

• Friedman, Stan (2006). Dogs Playing Poker: Poker Kit. Sterling Publishing Company, Inc. ISBN 1402734484.
• Schreiber, Lee Robert (2005). Poker as Life: 101 Lessons from the World's Greatest Game. Hearst Books. ISBN 1588164616.
• Hope, Tony: Hart, Markus; Wilson, Vicki (2005). Fresh Wisdom: Breakthough to Enlightenment. BookSurge Publishing. ISBN 1419618555.

I think these books can't be used as sources, since they have not undergone any peer review or editorial oversight, and neither have they been written by people who are known to be authorities in any of the relevant fields (poker, philosophy, Wallace the person). However, Bridge & Tunnel had repeatedly insisted that these are acceptable sources, with no justification whatsoever. And I've yet to come across any rationale from anyone based on Misplaced Pages policy that these sources can be used.

In any case, I now bring this matter forward to community discussion. Bi 07:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Of cousre they can be used as sources. Bridge & Tunnel 03:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Baldly reasserting your point over and over again sure makes you look credible, no? Bi 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleting information that is sourced sure makes you look credible, no? Bridge & Tunnel 04:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Circular logic. This RFC is about whether your "sources" are acceptable in the first place. And stop trying to dominate discussion. Bi 06:55, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

And I already responded of course they can be used as sources. And don't try to push me out of the dicussion. I'll discuss whenever I please. Bridge & Tunnel 04:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I don't see what's wrong with the first two -- WP:A does not say that a source has to be peer reviewed to be reliable. I'd say they can be used as sources on Misplaced Pages, but their reliability has to be weighed against the exceptionality of the claims they are used to support. The third book is published by BookSurge, which seems to qualify as a "vanity press." So per WP:A that book would probably not be an appropriate source for controversial or disputed claims. PubliusFL 19:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough but the claim from the BookSurge book is not controversial or disputed. Neo-Tech literature itself says that Wallace plans on building a "building-size, public walk-through glass model that illustrates -- via interactive audio and video -- the scientific, intellectual, practical, and emotional meanings of that discovery in aesthetically-exciting ways." "He will organize and then integrate the vast amounts of raw physical, statistical, and mathematical information currently available for the chemical elements. That information concerns space-and-time distributions, quantities, properties, and uses of those elements on quantum, macro, and cosmic levels." That's from "Pax Neo-Tech" Bridge & Tunnel 21:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That's all the BookSurge book is used as a source for? What's the source for the stuff about non-supernatural intelligent beings? PubliusFL 21:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Same sources. Both the one from Booksurge and Wallace's writings himself in Pax Neo-Tech where he says "Yet, without direct evidence to posit a scientifically-acceptable theory, Neo-Tech deduces a useful speculation: Perhaps eon-advanced conscious beings (Zons) birthed this universe with initial conditions designed to deliver ever-expanding health and prosperity for conscious life by following the immutable laws of nature. Such a speculation provides a tool for generating predictions -- regardless if universe-creating Zons exist or not." Bridge & Tunnel 04:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, so the BookSurge book does make controversial, extraordinary claims. And it's also published by a vanity press. Bi 10:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that is concerning. How can you say "the claim from the BookSurge book is not controversial or disputed" when it's used to support an assertion that the universe was created by space aliens? Bi, above in this talk page you mention respecting the decision not to delete the article. Has there been a VfD for this article already? There's no link to the discussion at the top of the talk page like there normally is. PubliusFL 15:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The AfD was over a few days ago. Bi 18:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not being "used to support an assertion that the universe was created by space aliens." It's being used to support an assertion that Frank Wallace speculated that the universe was created by intelligent beings. Sure it's controversial that the universe was created by an intelligent being, but it's not controversial that Wallace speculated that it was. That's all the source is being used for. Bridge & Tunnel 17:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Bridge & Tunnel, see below. Bi 18:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Take a step back and think about this. I only came to this article from the RfC and had never heard of Frank R. Wallace's cosmological beliefs before. How do I know it's not controversial that Wallace speculated that aliens created the universe unless there's a reliable source saying so? That's the kind of claim that's controversial on its face. We certainly wouldn't accept someone putting that kind of statement in, say, Tony Blair's article based on a self-published book. For something like this, if you can't find a reliable independent source, you should at least cite something that Wallace himself wrote. PubliusFL 18:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's what I've been qouting above. That's from "Pax Neo-Tech" which is a book by Wallace. Wallace's own books back up what the Booksurge source says. Wallace himself openly says that he speculates, though doesn't assert, that the universe was created by an intelligent non-supernatural being. And he said he planned on building that glass walk-through model that the source talks about. Bridge & Tunnel 18:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's peel this apart layer by layer.

Again, from WP:A: "Material from self-published or questionable sources may be used in articles about those sources" (emphasis mine). You're using the Booksurge book as a source. But is the article about the Booksurge book or its authors? No. The article is about Frank R. Wallace. The Booksurge book can only be used as a source about the Booksurge book or its authors.

So, the only self-published material that can be used in an article on Frank R. Wallace is Frank R. Wallace's own writings. So instead of looking at the Booksurge book as a source, now let's look at Wallace's writings as a source. Now, our source — Wallace — claims that the "universe was created by an intelligent non-supernatural being". This is clearly a contentious claim, from a questionable source (Wallace). Bi 18:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The claim that an intelligent being created the universe is contentious, but it's not contentious that Wallace speculated that that might be the case because he says it himself in his writings. There's no way you can prevent that from being in the article. It's perfectly acceptable to cite what a person says or believes no matter how far out it is. You're trying to twist policy to prevent information from being in this article, obviously. Probably because you couldn't get it deleted But it's not going to work. I've assumed good faith as long as I could but I can see now that it's just not there. Bridge & Tunnel 18:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) Wait a minute. Per WP:FRINGE, a non-mainstream theory should only be mentioned on Misplaced Pages if it has received attention from a mainstream publication or mainstream group. See also WP:A, claims from a self-published source must be relevant to the subject's notability in addition to not contentious. Even if the fact that Wallace believed this stuff is not contentious, what's the justification for talking about it on Misplaced Pages? PubliusFL 18:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Because this article is about Wallace and his writings. If we were talking about Wallace's theories in another article, then that's another matter. By the way intelligent design has recieved plenty of attention so his speculation that an intelligent being created the universe is not all that "fringe." Bridge & Tunnel 18:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's begging the question. Just because there is an article about Wallace doesn't mean everything Wallace believed or talked about belongs on Misplaced Pages. PubliusFL 19:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not begging the quesiton. You said that a theory should only be mentioned if it has received attention from a mainstream publication or group. The speculation that an intelligent being created the universe (otherwise known as "intelligent design") meets that criteria. I disagree with your second sentence. I think everything essential to what Wallace believed or talked about in his writings does belong in the Frank R. Wallace article, of course narrowed down for conciseness and efficiency. That's the standard for all Misplaced Pages articles about any particular person. Bridge & Tunnel 19:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Intelligent design" in general has received mainstream attention, but Wallace's particular flavour of "intelligent design" which involves "business-oriented isotopes" and other weird crack — that, my friend, is nowhere near mainstream. Bi 19:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

So what? Something doesn't have to be mainstream to be on Misplaced Pages. And if it's in an article about a person it doesn't matter how far out of the mainstream it is. Anything that Wallace says that is essential to his writings can be mentioned in this article. It's not even gone into detail about what the theory is except that he theorized the universe was created by an intelligent being, so what you're saying is not even relevent. Bridge & Tunnel 19:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Anything that Wallace says that is essential to his writings can be mentioned in this article" if it's attributable to a reliable published source. A source is not "reliable" if it's self-published, unless it's being used in an article about the source, is not contentious, and is relevant to the subject's notability. "Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known" and "claims not supported or claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community" are red flags indicating that such claims" should be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources."PubliusFL 20:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, and the self-published source says the same thing that Wallace himself says in his own writings, so it doesn't matter. Whether the the Booksurge book is used as a source or Wallace's writings themselves used as a source, the same thing can be stated. The Booksurge source is obviously correct in what it claims Wallace says so there is no doubt as to its reliability. Bridge & Tunnel 02:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If it's not mainstream, then WP:FRINGE applies. As PubliusFL pointed out, a non-mainstream theory should only be mentioned on Misplaced Pages if it has received attention from a mainstream publication or mainstream group. And Wallace's flavour of intelligent design which involves "business-oriented isotopes" and stuff is not mainstream, and not covered by reliable mainstream publications. Bi 05:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Not if it's confined to the article about the person that has the theory. It's perfectly fine to mention it. Bridge & Tunnel 16:07, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd have thought that the claim that a book is "seminal" (in the first two sources) counts as quite extraordinary indeed. But let me know what you think. Bi 02:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The article doesn't say that the book is seminal anyway. It says that the book "has been called seminal." There's nothing contentious about that. Bridge & Tunnel 04:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:A says that the test is whether the source makes a contentious claim, not whether the Misplaced Pages article makes a contentious claim. And the source — the book — certainly does make a contentious claim. It doesn't matter if you intend to subsequently quote the contentious claim in reported speech — no means no. Bi 10:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No it's not. It's about whether the article makes a contentious claim. Wallace himself could make a contentious claim but that doesn't mean we can't report that he made that claim. And we can certainly report that books on poker say that Advance Concepts is a seminal book. Anyway it's not even a contentious claim. Find a source that disagrees that it was a seminal book before you claim such a thing. Bridge & Tunnel 17:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

(indent reset) Let's look at the policy text: "There are two exceptions: Material from self-published or questionable sources may be used in articles about those sources, so long as: it is not contentious there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it; the article is not based primarily on such sources." Observe the following:

1. It says "there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it" — given that Misplaced Pages articles are written by nameless contributors, can "it" refer to the article?
2. Why does the last part need to start referring explicitly to "the article", when "it" already refers to the article? Answer: "it" does not refer to the article.
3. Look at the beginning of the clause: "Material" is singular. "Articles" is plural. "It" is singular. Guess what "it" can refer to? Bingo.

Conclusion: it's crystal clear that the test is whether the source makes a contentious claim, not whether the article makes a contentious claim. Even framing a source's contentious claim in reported speech is a no-no. (It's so obvious that you'll have to be really dumb not to see it — I mean, I wish I didn't really have to analyze the whole thing in such boring detail — but then again, as Rep. Eshoo says: "Well, you know what, you have to be smart to play dumb.")

And I think I might be able to find a source which disagrees it's a "seminal" work. "xhad" tells us:

I did manage to find mention of this guy's book in my copy of "Gambling Theory and Other Topics," in which Mason Malmuth (a well-known author whose work I respect) reviews a slew of books. "(4) A carefully written book that is much too vague. However, it contains some interesting advice if you are just trying to hustle people. While this book should be read, you won't learn much of real value."

Now "xhad" may not qualify a source, but by your own (pretty low) standards, Mason Malmuth definitely does. Are you willing to bet that Malmuth didn't say that Wallace's book is "much too vague" and contains nothing "much of real value"?

So: your source is questionable, and it makes contentious (and contended) claims, and contentious claims in the source simply can't be included in any guise, period. Bi 18:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You're bringing up policy about self-published sources. The poker books are not self-published so what you're saying it irrelevant. It's laughable that you're trying to stop the inclusion of a couples independant sources that says one of Wallace's books was seminal. You can't stop that from being in the article. Bridge & Tunnel 18:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

They're questionable sources, which are well within the scope of the very same clause. And my independent source doesn't agree with yours. What can you say to that? Bi 18:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Question" them all you want but it's perfectly acceptable to cite a book on Wikipiedia. If you have a source that disgrees what does that matter? You just add that source as well. That's what you're supposed to do in Misplaced Pages. But the source that you quoted doesn't say it isn't a seminal book. The author thought it notable enough to mention and said it "should be read." Bridge & Tunnel 18:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not "perfectly acceptable", as I've already explained very very clearly above. At this point it's abundantly clear you're just throwing out nonsensical arguments, and even after they've been refuted in detail you still repeatedly insist you're right. Bi 18:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You haven't explained anything. You've just attempted to interpret policy in a very convoluted way to keep information out of this article. You're obviously wrong. Books can be cited as sources on Misplaced Pages. And if writers of other books say that another book was "seminal" it is perfectly acceptable to point out that they say that. Bridge & Tunnel 18:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The sources are admissible. It's ridiculous what Bi is trying to do here. He couldnt get the article deleted so he's attempting to delete the information in it instead. I saw him do this in the Neo-Tech article until he finally got it deleted (with a vote to merge it into this one). Bi operates an anti-Neo-Tech website. JoeMystical 04:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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