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:The syllabus has a long list of RS sources, along with more specialized discussion. - ] <sup>]</sup> ] 20:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
:The syllabus has a long list of RS sources, along with more specialized discussion. - ] <sup>]</sup> ] 20:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
::I feel like there are two issues being conflated here: Native American (or Indigenous) ''ancestry'' and Native American ''identity''. If the name of the category was "Academics who falsely claimed minority ''identity''", this would be a different discussion because all the sources are emphatically clear that Elizabeth Warren does not have, and cannot claim, Native American identity, or citizenship, or membership. But again, what I'm seeing from the sources is that she ''might'' (or might not) have Native American ancestry. I also understand that there is strong resistance in Native American communities to DNA genealogy testing. You yourself have restated the consensus of the sources that, because the databases do not have samples of North American Indigenous DNA, no test can corroborate her claim. However, where we disagree is whether that makes her claim {{tq|false}}. To my understanding, if a claim cannot be proven one way or another, it is not true or false, but ''unproven'', or indeterminate. The question I'm asking myself is, would it be acceptable to have a sentence in the article saying 'Elizabeth Warren's claims to Native American ancestry have been proven false?'. Even in the section discussing her claims, nowhere ''in Misplaced Pages's voice'' is it stated that her claims were false, which is what the category name does. '''<span style="font-family: 'Georgia';">] <span style="color: #000000"><small>(])</small></span></span>''' 08:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
::I feel like there are two issues being conflated here: Native American (or Indigenous) ''ancestry'' and Native American ''identity''. If the name of the category was "Academics who falsely claimed minority ''identity''", this would be a different discussion because all the sources are emphatically clear that Elizabeth Warren does not have, and cannot claim, Native American identity, or citizenship, or membership. But again, what I'm seeing from the sources is that she ''might'' (or might not) have Native American ancestry. I also understand that there is strong resistance in Native American communities to DNA genealogy testing. You yourself have restated the consensus of the sources that, because the databases do not have samples of North American Indigenous DNA, no test can corroborate her claim. However, where we disagree is whether that makes her claim {{tq|false}}. To my understanding, if a claim cannot be proven one way or another, it is not true or false, but ''unproven'', or indeterminate. The question I'm asking myself is, would it be acceptable to have a sentence in the article saying 'Elizabeth Warren's claims to Native American ancestry have been proven false?'. Even in the section discussing her claims, nowhere ''in Misplaced Pages's voice'' is it stated that her claims were false, which is what the category name does. '''<span style="font-family: 'Georgia';">] <span style="color: #000000"><small>(])</small></span></span>''' 08:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
:::@] she claimed American Indian identity in 1986 on a registration card for the State Bar of Texas https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/05/politics/warren-american-indian-texas-bar/index.html https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/02/06/elizabeth-warren-american-indian-identity/2787055002/ "In response, Warren sent a 12-page letter to the Cherokee authors on Tuesday night. Her letter repeated past apologies, reiterated that she is a “white woman” and detailed a policy agenda that she said was good for Indian Country.", "The controversy started in 2012, when questions arose about her university listing. Barnes researched Warren’s genealogy and found that, despite Warren’s claims, she had no ancestral ties to Cherokee tribes." https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-02-26/elizabeth-warren-again-is-pressed-on-past-claims-of-native-american-heritage ] (]) 19:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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Warren apparently believes the DNC stole Bernie's nomination in 2016
The article seems to miss this interesting piece of information. . I would suggest adding this into the Misplaced Pages entry, but I won't make any unilateral moves here. Any thoughts?Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 14:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I believe that this should be in the article. I think the citation should be the CNN story and not the Washington Post Article. She said it on CNN and the Washington Post was merely saying that she said it on CNN.JeremiahJohnson (talk) 13:51, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
Bit misleading on her Native American controversy and Trump
'Throughout his presidency, former president Donald Trump mocked Warren for her assertions of Native American ancestry, and called her the slur "Pocahontas".'
I struggle to see how it can be justified to refer to that as a "slur". Maybe some left leaning publications do, but does a majority of publications? From what I've seen the answer is no.
'At a July 2018 Montana rally, he promised that if he debated Warren, he would pay $1 million to her favorite charity if she could prove her Native American ancestry via a DNA test. Warren released results of a DNA test in October 2018, then asked Trump to donate the money to the National Indigenous Women's Resource Center. Trump responded by denying that he had made the challenge. The DNA test found that Warren's ancestry is mostly European but "strongly support the existence of an unadmixed Native American ancestor", likely "in the range of 6 to 10 generations ago".'
'The DNA test found that Warren's ancestry is mostly European but "strongly support the existence of an unadmixed Native American ancestor", likely "in the range of 6 to 10 generations ago".'
This is potentially misleading to viewers unless we note that this is the same amount of ancestry that a random white American is likely to have. 84.70.169.190 (talk) 07:56, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
That's not the amount of Native American ancestry the random white American is likely to have. The random white Amarican is likely to have 0% Native American ancestry. However, since some white Americans have a lot of Native American DNA, the average is 0.18%, compared with Warren (0.10% to 1.56%).TFD (talk) 10:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
I don't see why. Warren said that her great-great-great-grandmother was part Native American, which is consistent with the DNA finding that she had a Native American ancestor 6 to 10 generations ago. This isn't a biology article. All that matters is the DNA test confirmed her claim. TFD (talk) 04:36, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Well no, what she actually said is that she is Native American, not that 200-300 years ago she had one Native American ancestor. "being Native American has been part of my story" and "1986, Warren identified her race as "American Indian" on a State Bar of Texas write-in form". The DNA test debunked her claim. I feel like telling the readers the DNA percentage is useful because it's hard to put into perspective what one ancestor 6-10 generations ago actually means, the DNA test does that. 84.70.169.190 (talk) 05:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
When you start by making obviously false statements such as the average American has Indian ancestry, you immediately destroy any credibility. In your latest comment, you leave out that before saying she was Native American, Warren said that her great-great-great-grandmother was part Native American, which was confirmed by the DNA evidence. Instead of getting misinformation from unreliable sourcess and wasting our time with a rant, research what reliable sources say, compare it to what this article says and then comment. TFD (talk) 01:31, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
That was when she was challenged in an interview on why she identified herself as American Indian in the 80s. And 6-10 generations ago is further than that. Can I get a response on my point about the bet with Trump? 84.70.169.190 (talk) 04:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Can you explain why you made the obviously false claim that "this is the same amount of ancestry that a random white American is likely to have." TFD (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
I thought I read that when her results came out. Also isn't her results within that margin according to you? Average is 0.18%, compared with Warren's 0.10% to 1.56%. 84.70.169.190 (talk) 20:50, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
For a sample of hundreds of millions of people an average is fair enough, the point is her claim of being an American Indian was false then when challenged on it her new claim of being 1/32 Native was also false. Adding her % would be useful to the readers, and fixing the 1 million bet statement is needed. 84.70.169.190 (talk) 01:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I have never understood why people like you, when you find an opponent who has misstated facts, instead of just calling them out on it, they misrepresent the facts in order to make them appear worse. The same thing happened with Benghazi. It only works with people who are already converted. Maybe they have difficulty in distinguishing facts from alternative facts. In any case, it doesn't belong in article discussions. TFD (talk) 03:11, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I have edited the article to include Trump's specific words. I think the problem here is that his challenge was ambiguous. He does say what you said, but also 'And in the middle of the debate, when she proclaims that she is of Indian heritage because her mother said she has high cheekbones'. 'Of Indian heritage' is different to 'is Indian' so its not entirely clear what he had in mind. Her claim of course also changed over time, which doesn't help the matter. I suspect my phrasing won't be the final word here, but hopefully it can bring us a little closer. LastDodo (talk) 12:24, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
1950 census
The details of the 1950 United States Census have just been released (there is a 72-year restriction on individual data, which just expired). Warren (then known as Elizabeth Herring) was born in 1949, so she would have been listed. Can anyone find her in the census and confirm what race she was listed as? --Metropolitan90(talk)01:14, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
The source would not be acceptable. We would need it to be mentioned in a reliable source. I guess we'll have to wait another twenty years to see where Obama's parents said he was born. TFD (talk) 02:12, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Should changes be made to the section labeled "Ancestry and Native American relations"?
The subsection "Ancestry and Native American relations" in the larger public image section seems a little weird to me. You have 5 paragraphs on her ancestry controversy, and then the section ends with two sentences about Deb Haaland's praise and endorsement of her. I have no objection to the information itself, but it just seems weird to have it in a section that is overwhelmingly focused on the issue of her ancestry. Why not move the Haaland endorsement sentence to somewhere in the section on her presidential campaign instead? 2600:8800:4CE0:E400:7D60:3525:5CF3:500D (talk) 05:13, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2022
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Not done: Nowhere does it say that she started her second term in 2017. It does say that she announced in 2017 that she would run for a second term . – Muboshgu (talk) 00:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Contentious category on this page
Pete unseth has recently reverted me to re-add the Category:Academics who falsely claimed minority ancestry to this page. Respecting WP:BRD, but also keeping in mind the WP:BLP imperative that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion, I will restate my rationale here before re-reverting.
WP:BLPCAT states: Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its reliable sources. The name of the category is "Academics who falsely claimed minority ancestry". The problem with this is that I haven't seen a reliable source which states that she "falsely claimed minority ancestry." Sure, I've seen reliable sources affirming that she is not a member of a tribe, and that she should not be considered 'racially' Native American. But I haven't seen any source debunking the idea that she had a Native American ancestor, which is what the category name is saying. Because of this, I feel that it's not appropriate for this category to remain on the page of a living person. MediaKill13 (talk)10:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
She does not have any Native American ancestry. Tribal identity is based in citizenship, not race. Bustamante said it was possible she had a South American ancestor from way back, but the DNA cannot distinguish whether that ancestor's alleles were Indigenous to this continent or Spain. The commercial databases they used do not have any North American Indigenous DNA to match people with. She claimed Cherokee and Delaware ancestry. The test cannot, and did not, show that. Her claim was proven false.
The white supremacy of Elizabeth Warren - Indian Country Today "Elizabeth Warren has exhibited a wide-ranging pattern of dishonesty and contempt for Indigenous communities that disqualifies her candidacy for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination"
I feel like there are two issues being conflated here: Native American (or Indigenous) ancestry and Native American identity. If the name of the category was "Academics who falsely claimed minority identity", this would be a different discussion because all the sources are emphatically clear that Elizabeth Warren does not have, and cannot claim, Native American identity, or citizenship, or membership. But again, what I'm seeing from the sources is that she might (or might not) have Native American ancestry. I also understand that there is strong resistance in Native American communities to DNA genealogy testing. You yourself have restated the consensus of the sources that, because the databases do not have samples of North American Indigenous DNA, no test can corroborate her claim. However, where we disagree is whether that makes her claim false. To my understanding, if a claim cannot be proven one way or another, it is not true or false, but unproven, or indeterminate. The question I'm asking myself is, would it be acceptable to have a sentence in the article saying 'Elizabeth Warren's claims to Native American ancestry have been proven false?'. Even in the section discussing her claims, nowhere in Misplaced Pages's voice is it stated that her claims were false, which is what the category name does. MediaKill13 (talk)08:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
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Not done: Nowhere does it say that she started her second term in 2017. It does say that she announced in 2017 that she would run for a second term . – Muboshgu (talk) 00:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)