Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:12, 31 January 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Alexander Hamilton article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Alexander Hamilton has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones Date Process Result November 15, 2004 Peer review Reviewed March 10, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 21, 2015 Peer review Reviewed March 2, 2015 Good article nominee Listed Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 11, 2005, September 11, 2009, September 11, 2010, September 11, 2016, and July 12, 2019. Current status: Good article

Template:Vital article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Military / Politics and Government This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as High-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States: Revolutionary War / Military history / Presidential elections / Government / History High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - American Revolutionary War task force. This article is supported by WikiProject Military history - U.S. military history task force. This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. presidential elections (assessed as Low-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. Government (assessed as High-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. history (assessed as Top-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States Constitution High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States Constitution, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Constitution of the United States on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United States ConstitutionWikipedia:WikiProject United States ConstitutionTemplate:WikiProject United States ConstitutionUnited States Constitution High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is about one (or many) person(s). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Economics Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Economics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. New York City High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. New York (state): Capital District / Columbia University Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Misplaced Pages:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Capital District (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by WikiProject Columbia University (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Finance & Investment Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finance & Investment, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Finance and Investment on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Finance & InvestmentWikipedia:WikiProject Finance & InvestmentTemplate:WikiProject Finance & InvestmentFinance & Investment Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics: American / Political parties High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by Political parties task force (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Caribbean: Saint Kitts & Nevis / U.S. Virgin Islands High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caribbean, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the countries of the Caribbean on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Misplaced Pages visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.CaribbeanWikipedia:WikiProject CaribbeanTemplate:WikiProject CaribbeanCaribbean High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Saint Kitts and Nevis (assessed as Top-importance). This article is supported by the United States Virgin Islands work group (assessed as Top-importance). Template:WikiProject Maritime Trades Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Trade Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trade, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Trade on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TradeWikipedia:WikiProject TradeTemplate:WikiProject TradeTrade Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Law Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WP1.0

Other talk page banners

This article has been viewed enough times in a single year to make it into the Top 50 Report annual list. This happened in 2020, when it received 15,030,057 views. This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 8 times. The weeks in which this happened: February 14 to 20, 2016 June 12 to 18, 2016 June 28 to July 4, 2020 July 5 to 11, 2020 July 12 to 18, 2020 July 19 to 25, 2020 July 26 to August 1, 2020 August 2 to 8, 2020 Text has been copied to or from this article; see the list below. The source pages now serve to provide attribution for the content in the destination pages and must not be deleted as long as the copies exist. For attribution and to access older versions of the copied text, please see the history links below. Copied Alexander Hamilton (oldid, history) → Alexander Hamilton and slavery (diff) on 18:36, 20 October 2016 Copied Alexander Hamilton (oldid, history) → List of things named after Alexander Hamilton (diff) on 10:03, 27 November 2022 Copied Alexander Hamilton (oldid, history) → Cultural depictions of Alexander Hamilton (diff) on 07:07, 28 November 2022

To-do list for Alexander Hamilton: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2022-11-29 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Expand : Hamilton and the Battle of Princeton Hamilton's private negotiations with British agent George Beckwith Hamilton and the speculators including the bailout of William Duer Hamilton's attacks on Philip Freneau and the misquotation

Hamilton's Jewish roots

The Misplaced Pages article negatively depicts my research on Hamilton's Jewish origins by making reference to two critics: Michael Newton, who was not actually responding to my book (as mine came out six years after his self-published book did), and Mara Cohen Ioannides, an instructor (she is erroneously identified as a professor in the Wiki article) who published an H-Net review that was roundly debunked here: https://networks.h-net.org/node/8585/reviews/10784192/cohen-ioannides-porwancher-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton Meanwhile, the Misplaced Pages article makes no mention of reviews from established scholars who have accepted the book's findings, such as Stephen Whitfield, who called the book "ingenious" here: https://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/the-jewish-world-of-alexander-hamilton or Mike Fink, who called it "remarkable" here: https://www.providencejournal.com/story/opinion/columns/2021/08/26/opinion-fink-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton/8237924002/ or Nan Goodman who called it an "invaluable contribution" here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14664658.2021.2015304 Porwancher (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the current text does appear misleading. Feel free to make a conflict of interest edit request. My first impression is that that paragraph could be cut down to one or two sentences tacked onto the previous paragraph, sticking to the facts and mentioning that Hamilton might have been raised Jewish but little is known for certain. Freoh (talk) 16:02, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

I tweaked the wording regarding Newton's argument as to not seem like a response of any sort. Regarding Cohen-Ioannides, you're correct that she's not a Jewish Studies professor (she's an English professor) but she has a Doctor of Science in Jewish Studies and she has authored several books regarding Judaism & Jewish people in the U.S. so she qualifies as an expert in the field . By the way, regarding the reviews you listed: 1) Whitfield's review actually notes that the work is "supreme­ly revi­sion­ist" and its claim and although he calls the book's thesis (as you noted) "ingenious", he also calls it "tentative". 2) Fink's review doesn't comment on the theory at all. 3) Goodman calls the theory "compelling" (i.e. interesting) but that's about it. We should follow the scholarly consensus and make sure not to create a false balance as the theory hasn't (yet) been adopted by the majority of scholars. Antiok 1pie (talk) 18:30, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and for editing. A few comments: (1) Cohen-Ioannides is still inaccurately described as a "professor" when she is in fact an instructor, (2) Contrary to the entry, I don't actually argue that "Hamilton's mother must have converted to Judaism" but rather that she "probably" did , (3) to describe a work as "revisionist" is not to gainsay its credibility but merely to comment on its departure from conventional thinking. In fact Whitfield says that chapter one (wherein I lay out my evidence for Hamilton's likely Jewish identity) would have made "a ter­rif­ic schol­ar­ly arti­cle." (When he says the theory is "tentative" he's referring to my own description of my thesis as probabilistic, rather than to his tentative acceptance of my thesis.)(4) Jonathan Sarna, widely accepted as the world's leading authority on American Jewish history, has also praised the book , (5) the book won two book prizes, including the Journal of the American Revolution Book-of-the-Year Award.

These latter three points are antecedent to my main point: the Misplaced Pages entry *only* refers to two scholars who are highly critical of my theory (one of whom self-publishes books and has no graduate training in history), while not mentioning *any* of the scholars who are more amenable to it. Readers of this entry could easily draw the mistaken impression that my theory has only elicited negative reactions when in fact the reaction is mixed, with more senior scholars proving more amenable. Porwancher (talk) 19:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

You know more about Hamilton than I do, but in my opinion all of this debate only distracts from the main point of this article, which is encyclopedic information about Alexander Hamilton. I made an edit that cut down and reorganized the Judaism section into § Faith. Porwancher and Antiok 1pie, does that work for you two? Freoh (talk) 20:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I wholly agree and support your edits. This Misplaced Pages entry is not the proper place to litigate the issue. Porwancher (talk) 20:43, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

 Resolved Freoh (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2022

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Footnote 20 to the sentence: "Alexander supplemented his education with a family library of 34 books" should reference page 24 of Chernow's biography of Hamilton, not 34; 34 books as referenced on page 24. 64.231.36.132 (talk) 14:02, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 14:15, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

edit request

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at A. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

I have a conflict of interest, of course, but I would ask an editor to revise the Misplaced Pages article, which one-sidedly depicts my research on Hamilton's Jewish origins by only making reference to two critics (neither of whom has a PhD in the field) while neglecting the established scholars who have widely accepted the book's findings. The Misplaced Pages page could simply suggest that Porwancher's theory is controversial with a number of established scholars accepting it and others disputing it.

The two critics are: (1) Michael Newton, who was not actually responding to my book (as mine came out six years after his self-published book did), and (2) Mara Cohen Ioannides, an instructor (she is erroneously identified as a professor in the Wiki article) who published an H-Net review that was roundly debunked here: https://networks.h-net.org/node/8585/reviews/10784192/cohen-ioannides-porwancher-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton If the Misplaced Pages article continues to highlight these critics, it ought also to note reviews from established scholars who have accepted the book's findings, such as Stephen Whitfield, who called the book "ingenious" here: https://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/the-jewish-world-of-alexander-hamilton or Mike Fink, who called it "remarkable" here: https://www.providencejournal.com/story/opinion/columns/2021/08/26/opinion-fink-jewish-world-alexander-hamilton/8237924002/ or Nan Goodman who called it an "invaluable contribution" here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14664658.2021.2015304 Porwancher (talk) 22:37, 24 December 2022 (UTC) Porwancher (talk) 16:58, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

 Resolved Freoh (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Portrait change

@Shoreranger, SwensonJ, Baguetteboing, and KAYTRA: I have mentioned you all here because of my editing of the portrait of Alexander Hamilton provided in the infobox. As the conversation on my talk page has gone to a standstill, I am opening a conversation on this article's talk page to discuss this in a more appropriate location than a user talk page and so that people who didn't read my previous edit summary can voice their opinions. I will not change the infobox portrait for now to not cause another edit war, but I firmly stand with the belief that the 1792 portrait is way better than both the 1802 and 1806 portraits. I am open to counter-arguments to this statement. Luxtay the IInd () 22:57, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

The 1802 portrait is by a huge margin closer to the likeness of the Alexander Hamilton (Ceracchi) bust Hamilton sat for, neither of which bear much resemblance to the 1792 portrait. Shoreranger (talk) 18:03, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The image is massively cropped and depicts Hamilton out of office. Now I'm not going to change it yet but just be aware that I don't agree with your change (maybe unless you can find the full original portrait). Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 21:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

If what you mean by "out of office" is that the image depicts him after he was no longer the Secretary of the Treasury, I fail to see the significance. If it is a good likeness of him as an adult, what difference does it make?

You can find an image of the full portrait here, for what it's worth:

The Trumball portrait was also cropped as I recall. (talk) 18:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I still prefer the portrait that they use at the Treasury website or the portrait that's used on the $10 bill. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

This?: https://home.treasury.gov/about/history/prior-secretaries/alexander-hamilton-1789-1795#main-content Shoreranger (talk) 21:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I meant the one that you replaced. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 02:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Are you okay with this image as a compromise? It's an official portrait of him as Secretary of the Treasury in 1792 and looks fairly close to your 1802 portrait. Most importantly, it looks official (and doesn't depict Hamilton in a depressed state after the death of his son in 1801). Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 01:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

No, not OK.

For one thing, that is the portrait I edited out in the first place. Secondly, as I have already contended, it i not "fairly close" to the 1802 portrait I substituted it with. Third, while I have provided a ink to another portrait directly from the Treasury website, there is conversely no indication that the portrait you suggest is "official" in any way. Finally, it is speculation as to what "state" Hamilton was in for the portrait I propose, but it is irrelevant anyway. Shoreranger (talk) 14:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I actually meant the 1806 posthumous image of Hamilton, that is most frequently used when referring to Hamilton. The 1806 image is the one used for Alexander Hamilton articles on the Mount Vernon website, the National Park Service website, and the Department of the Interior website (you can scroll down Google forever after searching for "Alexander Hamilton" without seeing the 1802 portrait without having to try to find it on Google images, even then, only two websites uses that image). The Ron Chernow book on Hamilton, which inspired the play Hamilton, uses the 1806 portrait on its front-cover (I can't even find a book on Hamilton that uses that 1802 image on Google in comparison). As a counter-point, it appears that his portrait on the Treasury article doesn't use that 1806 image, but it is based on the 1806 portrait and based on the opinions on the Talk Page of the Frederick the Great article, using portraits done many years after their deaths is not ideal (the Treasury portrait was done 80 years after Hamilton's death). The 1806 image, however dramatized, was done just two years after Hamilton's death and is in my opinion, artistically most suitable to be the infobox photo, not the 1802 image. Being historically accurate is one thing, but the presentation or suitability of an image on an infobox representing an important historical person as Hamilton is another.

In comparison, even if your portrait is the most "accurate" portrait, your portrait is square (while the full sized one is low-res). The artist, Ezra Miller, is largely unknown compared to the more famous Turnbull (Miller has a very distinctive style but it seems as if he uses the same pose over and over in his paintings). Your portrait depicts Hamilton ten years after leaving office and in the midst of depression following the death of his eldest son in a duel (according to this post by the Albany Institute of History & Art on Facebook, "The portrait captured a pensive and somber Hamilton who was still mourning the death of his eldest son, Philip, who was killed in a duel in 1801 at age nineteen."), so I don't see how this is the most "realistic portrait", if you don't give any historical evidence. The 1806 portrait is also exclusively used on many foreign language Wiki articles of Hamilton (and on this page prior to the Misplaced Pages phenomenon of everybody seemingly wanting to get a piece of the pie in editing Misplaced Pages infobox photos since the pandemic).

If this debate continues to go nowhere, then I'll have to request a third opinion. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 04:19, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

The 1806 Trumball portrait would be fine, as found on the NPS webpage here: Alexander Hamilton (U.S. National Park Service) (nps.gov) Shoreranger (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• History good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class biography articles
• GA-Class biography (military) articles
• High-importance biography (military) articles
• Military biography work group articles
• GA-Class biography (politics and government) articles
• High-importance biography (politics and government) articles
• Politics and government work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• GA-Class United States articles
• High-importance United States articles
• GA-Class United States articles of High-importance
• GA-Class American Revolutionary War articles
• American Revolutionary War task force articles
• American Revolutionary War articles with to-do lists
• GA-Class United States military history articles
• United States military history task force articles
• United States military history articles with to-do lists
• GA-Class United States presidential elections articles
• Low-importance United States presidential elections articles
• WikiProject United States presidential elections articles
• United States presidential elections articles with to-do lists
• GA-Class United States Government articles
• High-importance United States Government articles
• WikiProject United States Government articles
• United States Government articles with to-do lists
• GA-Class United States History articles
• Top-importance United States History articles
• WikiProject United States History articles
• United States History articles with to-do lists
• WikiProject United States articles
• GA-Class United States Constitution articles
• High-importance United States Constitution articles
• WikiProject United States Constitution persons
• GA-Class Economics articles
• Mid-importance Economics articles
• WikiProject Economics articles
• GA-Class New York City articles
• High-importance New York City articles
• WikiProject New York City articles
• GA-Class New York (state) articles
• Mid-importance New York (state) articles
• GA-Class Capital District articles
• Mid-importance Capital District articles
• WikiProject Capital District articles
• GA-Class Columbia University articles
• Mid-importance Columbia University articles
• WikiProject Columbia University articles
• GA-Class Finance & Investment articles
• Top-importance Finance & Investment articles
• WikiProject Finance & Investment articles
• GA-Class politics articles
• High-importance politics articles
• GA-Class American politics articles
• Top-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• GA-Class political party articles
• Low-importance political party articles
• Political parties task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• GA-Class Caribbean articles
• High-importance Caribbean articles
• GA-Class Saint Kitts and Nevis articles
• Top-importance Saint Kitts and Nevis articles
• WikiProject Saint Kitts and Nevis articles
• GA-Class United States Virgin Islands articles
• Top-importance United States Virgin Islands articles
• United States Virgin Islands articles
• WikiProject Caribbean articles
• GA-Class Trade articles
• Mid-importance Trade articles
• WikiProject Trade articles
• GA-Class law articles
• Mid-importance law articles
• WikiProject Law articles
• Pages in the Misplaced Pages Top 25 Report
• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists
• Misplaced Pages semi-protected edit requests