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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: January 22 to 28, 2023 (7th)

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: First police report in Tyre Nichols case contradicts video evidence and didn't mention beating by police – CNN, Jan. 31, 2023 Initial Police Report on Tyre Nichols Arrest Is Contradicted by Videos – The New York Times, Jan. 31, 2023

To add to article

Basic information to add to this article: exactly what did the two "confrontations" entail? 76.190.213.189 (talk) 21:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Video will be released on Friday evening, January 27, and the nature of the confrontations will be clearer at that time. Cullen328 (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

What’s the copyright status of the bodycam Videos and police telephone pole footage? Victor Grigas (talk) 00:52, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Such videos and footage are always in the public domain. 2603:7000:B23E:33EE:9BF:8418:261B:49FF (talk) 12:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Does the footage show the first "confrontation"? 76.190.213.189 (talk) 01:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

There were no good reasons for the traffic stop in the first place... New hordak from 2018 (talk) 11:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

The only current media reports about their confrontation so far has been these two incidents that are on film, the earliest being the stop at the intersection. I also included a formal citation for the videos since before we just had hyperlinks.LkeYHOBSTorItEwA (talk) 12:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

To maintain accurate and objective analysis of this tragedy, shouldn't we have a discussion of the extent to which Mr. Nichols was evading and/or resisting arrest? For example his flight on foot, which occurred after the officers' initial attempt to arrest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:8300:C780:4CCC:D3E1:EFAA:E3C3 (talk) 00:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

The unvarnished facts are visible in the first video from MPD, i.e. the victim not following commands, not complying, running away. Completely leaving aside the actions of the victim prior to the first video frame available, it is obvious to the viewer that the police are attempting to take him into custody - merits notwithstanding - and he isn't following instructions and actively resisting efforts to restrain him and take him into custody. Broddonwallace (talk) 18:06, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears our comments were posted at a similar time, so to reiterate what I just wrote in a related section where you also made a similar comment: It seems to be original research that cannot be used in an encyclopedia article to have editors independently interpret the video. We also have secondary sources that can be used and have yet to be incorporated into the artice, e.g. 71 Commands in 13 Minutes: Officers Gave Tyre Nichols Impossible Orders (NYT, Jan. 29, 2023) "A Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols." Beccaynr (talk) 18:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Dr. Jeremy Levitt stated, "They clearly believe that he resisted arrest..." in an article about the police ‘not using appropriate police tactics’https://www.wftv.com/news/local/legal-analyst-says-officers-tyre-nichols-video-not-using-appropriate-police-tactics/3OSDFXYSXJDI3MDWND2VBVB3JM/

The Police Tribune states, "The video showed the suspect immediately began resisting arrest and despite his comments of “alright, alright, alright” to the officers, he refused to follow commands to lay on his stomach after they took the struggling man to the ground."https://policetribune.com/bodycam-shows-memphis-cops-beat-tyre-nichols-as-he-resisted-arrest-went-for-cops-gun/

Again, to be accurate and objective, the article should include the evidence of everything that contributed to the police escalation, whether the actions of the police were ultimately justified or not. 70.181.99.198 (talk) 20:12, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Might be better to quote more of that statement from Levitt: As for a legal perspective about the force he saw used in the video clip, Levitt said, "They clearly believe that he resisted arrest, that he ran, that he fought them, that he tried to grab their gun. I don’t have any reason to doubt what they’re saying, but the way they used force against him wouldn’t be appropriate in any context because the man is unarmed," Levitt said.

As for the Police Tribune content, I do not believe that site would be considered as a reliable source. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:49, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I believe the "original research" policy does not prohibit analysis of video by an editor. Here is a portion of the policy "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Misplaced Pages to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources."

If I posted "Around 8:33pm, an officer that remained at original traffic stop, put on his tactical vest, entered his duty vehicle and proceed South on Ross." That is verifiable in video 1. Nothing suggests the video is unreliable. The statement is neutral statement of verifiable fact. As such, it does not violate the original research policy.

Also consider how openly biased the The New York Times is in its analysis of the videos. "71 impossible commands". Except within the first minutes of the traffic stop Nichols stated "I am on the ground", someone respond "on your stomach", to which Nichols responds "Ok" AgntOtrth (talk) 22:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Falsely accused of reckless driving?

"On January 10, 2023, Tyre Nichols died three days after five Memphis Police Department officers falsely claiming to have observed reckless driving stopped him."

The source merely says that the probable cause wasn't substantiated. It could have occurred, but off camera. Schierbecker (talk) 04:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

• @Schierbecker: - wording is gone now. starship.paint (exalt) 05:54, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint: The current wording is still problematic. "The Memphis Police Department initially stated on January 8 that the traffic stop of Nichols was due to reckless driving, 'but' later on January 27 the Memphis police chief stated that footage showed no evidence of probable cause for the traffic stop." The two statements are not in conflict with one another. It's possible that he was initially stopped for reckless driving, AND the footage showed no evidence of it. The body camera perspective does not show the officer's point of view especially when sitting in the car. Baller McGee (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  But isn't only appropriate when statements are "in conflict"; it can be used any time there's an apparent tension. The two points (what the department initially said, what the chief said) are clearly linked and it's awkward to just throw them out as unconnected simple declarative sentences. I've restored but. as it's a perfectly appropriate way to join them (and making no sense at all), especially since the sentence goes on to clarify that the chief said her observation isn't dispositive. When there's further clarifying sourcing, we'll say more EEng 02:34, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

  The word initially in that statement combined with the 'but' suggests that they have retracted or changed the narrative of what happened. All they said was that they did not capture video evidence of what allegedly happened. That does not change the 'initial' statement or alter the official narrative.Baller McGee (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Also in the lede. As it stands at this time, the lede says "The officers stopped Nichols for reckless driving, pulled him from his car, and used pepper spray and a taser on him." which has not been verified at this point. It's true that the citation discusses the conflicting issues, but that does not make the declarative statement in the lede correct. At this point in time, we can only say the the stop was initially claimed to be for reckless driving.

I suggest changing the sentence to "The officers stopped Nichols (initially claiming reckless driving), pulled him from his car, and used pepper spray and a taser on him." This is accurate and supported by the citation. the other option is to remove the probable cause and just say "The officers stopped Nichols, pulled him from his car, and used pepper spray and a taser on him." If I don't get any negative feedback, and no one else makes the change, I'll address it tomorrow. Thank you!  • Bobsd •  (talk) 03:52, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I looked at the history and saw that PuppyMonkey just removed the word "alleged" commenting that "if the popo pulls you over it is always alleged."  While it may be true that facts behind arrests are only alleged until proven, in this case, we don't even know why the police, in their minds, pulled him over.   In any case, the point of using "alleged" is to show that the situation being described is what was "alleged", and not proven fact.  That is why the word exists, and I'm going to put it back.  • Bobsd •  (talk) 04:21, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The "alleged" here is very important. Especially given the chief of police says she hasn't been able to verify why they pulled Nichols over. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

"Expletives"

• We should quote what was said in full. No need to pull punches (so to speak). EEng 20:32, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  Yes. If we know the expletives, we should include them. We have no problems at Misplaced Pages illustrating articles with graphic images (Murder of George Floyd, Lynching of Jesse Washington, Henry Smith (lynching victim), Omaha race riot of 1919, etc. etc.). Why would we wimp out over mere words? We don't censor here. SecretName101 (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

  We should also quote what was said in full when it comes to even the least offensive sentences. Too much "snipping" and "three word fragments" going on in Misplaced Pages "lately", it almost " sarcastic". InedibleHulk (talk) 07:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Sources on protests?

@Cerebral726: If you have sources on protests, then feel free to list them here for other people to use in the article, or integrate the info into the article yourself. If there's enough for the body of the article, then a summary in the WP:LEAD will be better justified. Boud (talk) 23:08, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

There are actually two separate articles about the protests: Tyre Nichols protests and 2023 Memphis protests.

And there is an ongoing discussion about merging them. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

update needed: list of killings by police - Tyre Nichols

This needs an update, if anyone is up for it: List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States, January 2023

The text regarding the death of Tyre Nichols is inaccurate and does not reflect the fact that he was beaten by police etc. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 03:15, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I've updated the text there based on this article. CharredShorthand.talk; 09:31, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Great, thank you! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:25, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:BRD - Eric Adams Response

@Iamreallygoodatcheckers, how exactly is putting the video of Eric Adams speaking violating WP:UNDUE? The inclusion is not to highlight his personal thoughts in particular, its to display a public reaction to the incident. The only way I could see it violating WP:UNDUE would be if his opinion was the minority, which it clearly isn't. Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 06:30, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with IARGAC, a video of the mayor of New York opining on an incident in Memphis is way over the top. What makes his commentary significant or important? WWGB (talk) 06:37, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

It's just a speech of no significance. If I, John Q. Public, gave the same speech, videoed it, and uploaded it to commons should it be included just because it happens to regurgitate the majority opinion of most of the public? Of course not. Adams has nothing to do with this incident and the incident has nothing to do with him. Videos of speeches should be reserved for when they are significant and well covered in reliable sources, such as Obama's speech about Sandy Hook. Otherwise, it's giving undue emphasis. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 06:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

So would a tweet from Biden be good just because he's a more public figure? @WWGB Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 06:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

A tweet from Biden is just as relevant as one from the Memphis mayor or Tennessee governor (whose names escape me), as they were all elected to the same overlapping jurisdiction. It's a gesture of civic service that voters expect and (generally) respect. This Adams character seems a lot of things to a lot of people, but to Memphis people, I'll bet he's mostly just someone else's mayor. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:26, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that these particular comments by Adams do not belong in this particular article, but reasonable editors may disagree. I disagree with the response by Iamreallygoodatcheckers that comments by the mayor of the largest city in the United States are equivalent to comments by "John Q. Public". That is dismissive and disrespectful to an extreme regarding a highly notable elected official, and I remind the editor to review WP:BLP policy. Cullen328 (talk) 07:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

The OP was arguing that Adams comments shouldn't be removed since they aren't representative of a minority response. The analogy was to show just because a statement represents a majority viewpoint doesn't mean it warrants inclusion. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 07:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Every mayor, every governor, every congressperson, the president, the director of the FBI, every chief of police, every legal analyst, every talking head, pretty much everyone with a microphone, had the same reaction as you and I and everyone else in the world. I don't think it adds much to highlight a specific person's reaction, unless it's been very widely covered by RS (e.g., the family's public comments), it's undue. I don't think the mayor of New York's reaction makes the cut, neither the video nor the mention in prose, I'd exclude mention of the mayor of NYC altogether. Levivich (talk) 07:36, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Levivich, I agree with you about the specific content inclusion issue. I wish that you had also offered your assessment of the earlier comments that unnecessarily disrespected the mayor of the largest city in the United States, analogizing him dismissively to some random "John Q. Public". Perhaps you are OK with that for some unexplained reason. I am not. Cullen328 (talk) 08:24, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Some say "It is important for Americans to recognize—especially for those Americans who reside in New York City—that the City’s Mayor, Eric Adams, is no friend of the common man even as his image-makers project him out to be just that." InedibleHulk (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I think some version of prose about Adams could be included as WP:DUE - I also added a reference from Politico: New York mayor confers with White House ahead of expected Tyre Nichols protests (Jan. 27, 2023) that might help refine the content. Currently, this generally transitions to the mention of protests in the United States. A contrasting example is an opinion piece from Val Demings published recently in the Washington Post (Jan. 28, 2023), where it seems better to wait to consider inclusion until there is independent RS reporting about the commentary. Beccaynr (talk) 20:11, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST: redundant coordinates

The coordinates are currently listed at the top of page, and also within the infobox. Seems like we don't need both instances. Thanks. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

When coordinates are included in the Infobox, they also automatically display at top-right of the page. Removing them from the Infobox will cause them to disappear from both locations. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Ohh, weird. It seems so redundant; when viewing on a large screen you are seeing the coordinates twice at the same time, just a few line breaks apart from one another. Thanks for the explanation. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 21:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

For about the 10th time, I've removed the coordinates because they're OR. In the name of Jesus, will whoever keeps readding them please cut it out until you have a source? EEng 05:42, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I only added them once. Perhaps this means that quite a few editors want the coordinates in the article? Abductive (reasoning) 06:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Bias on initial encounter

The paragraph on the initial encounter seems biased and internally contradictory. Nichols did not comply with multiple orders from the police. Why did they pull him out of his car? Because he did not comply with the order to get out of his car. The article then says "Officers pushed Nichols to the ground", and later says "they attempted to pin him to the ground". How could they be attempting to pin him to the ground if he was already on the ground? Also, if Nichols was complying with the order to get to the ground, why does the article say they "pushed Nichols to the ground"? And if he was completely compliant, then how was he able to run away? Media sources have noted that Nichols does not appear to be responding to the orders from the officers. https://www.foxnews.com/us/tyre-nichols-bodycam-memphis-authorities-release-video-deadly-traffic-stop --Westwind273 (talk) 22:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not believe Fox News is an acceptable source for issues related to politics or controversial subjects such as this. Please see WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS. Do you have any other sources, to back up your assertion that "Nichols did not comply with multiple orders from the police. Why did they pull him out of his car? Because he did not comply with the order to get out of his car." You'll need quality reliable sources to backup such a claim. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

No, I do not think there are any other reliable sources at this time. Going forward, I think we need to be very careful about bias regarding the initial encounter. Due to the second encounter pretty much shaping up to be murder, there will be a temptation to describe the first encounter in a way biased against the police. Moreover, if the first encounter is described in a way biased against the police, it could conceal what triggered the police to commit murder in the second encounter. Specifically, some police conversation on the video seems to indicate that the beating at the second encounter was done as punishment for the resistance and running that Nichols did previously. George Mason professor RaShall Brackney spoke about this "retribution for resistance" aspect in her interview on NPR. https://www.npr.org/2023/01/28/1152353126/a-former-police-chief-says-more-police-does-not-mean-less-crime --Westwind273 (talk) 05:56, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

"Nichols did not comply with multiple orders from the police."

"You'll need quality reliable sources to backup such a claim"

The first video from Memphis PD documents compliance or lack of... no dispute. Speculate about the victim's motives, but his actions are not in question. FOX is reporting what any reader can verify from the video. Broddonwallace (talk) 17:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

No, the video does not show him refusing to get out of the car. When the audio starts at 1:04, you see and hear a police officer yelling him from the right-side of the car, but he doesn't tell him to get out of the car. Then at 1:08, another officer opens the driver side car door and yells him to get out of the car while simultaneously reaching into the car and pulling him out of it. Zero chance given for him to comply with the order, hence claiming he did not comply with an order to get out of the car is not supported by the video. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 18:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

You're misstating facts in this discussion. He did not comply with multiple orders. Broddonwallace (talk) 18:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Please cite a WP:RS to backup this claim of non-compliance with multiple orders. Thank you. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

FOX News...as stated above. Unless your are claiming that this is a Political issue? Broddonwallace (talk) 18:38, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

"There is consensus that Fox News is generally reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science." Except in this case? Which is "political"? And there is a video available? And FOX reports their take on the video which is at odds with other outlets wo make no mention of the context? Broddonwallace (talk) 18:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS entry includes For politics and science, there is consensus that the reliability of Fox News is unclear and that additional considerations apply to its use. As a result, Fox News is considered marginally reliable and generally does not qualify as a "high-quality source" for the purpose of substantiating exceptional claims in these topic areas. Although a significant portion of the community believes Fox News should be considered generally unreliable, the community did not reach a consensus to discourage the use of routine and uncontroversial coverage from Fox News. Based on the massive political reaction to this event, this does appear to be within politics, but it also seems to potentially be a misuse of the source to interpret the limited coverage for a general "he did not comply with multiple orders" statement, e.g. this source includes "For several seconds he repeats "Give us your hands!" Nichols looks limp or in a daze, and another officer can be seen punching him in the face". We also have more detailed analysis available from other sources that similarly examine these types of issues, but in greater depth. Beccaynr (talk) 18:50, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I suspected as much. "that's not how we see it" Intellectually bankrupt. Broddonwallace (talk) 02:03, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

@Broddonwallace: Well, this line of thinking about the reliability of Fox News is actually a product of broad community discourse and lengthy discussion. See here, for the most recent RfC conversation and rationale for this. There were definitely many diverse opinions on the topic. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:27, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

• It seems to be original research that cannot be used in an encyclopedia article to have editors independently interpret the video. We also have secondary sources that can be used and have yet to be incorporated into the artice, e.g. 71 Commands in 13 Minutes: Officers Gave Tyre Nichols Impossible Orders (NYT, Jan. 29, 2023) "A Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols." Beccaynr (talk) 18:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

  The secondary sources are the other "eyes on" the video... i.e. the NYT or FOX News. If the NYT is counting commands...FOX is reporting prima facia.. Broddonwallace (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

  The NYT is a secondary analysis, not "counting commands". Primary sources are susceptible to misuse and require extra caution in an article about living and recently deceased people, per the orignal research policy. Beccaynr (talk) 18:29, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Photo website

Nichols' photo website referred to in news articles is heavily archived on the Wayback Machine over Jan. 27-29. The earliest capture is Jan. 23, which could have been simply because it was missed, but the page was blank then. The page was still blank until later on Jan. 27, with the tabs and photos being set up between the 17:21 and 20:17 captures. Is there any source that actually verified the website? Something seems fishy here. Maybe it was set up by his family as a tribute but it's odd as it is. KarlM (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

From the CNN source in the article: "Photography was a form of self-expression that writing could never capture for Nichols, who wrote that it helped him look “at the world in a more creative way,” on his photography website." Beccaynr (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

And from CBS News: "On the website, he had a gallery of what he considered his "masterpieces": bridges and railroad tracks rendered in black and white, the neon lights of Beale Street at night. He took pictures of pink flowers, sunsets over the Mississippi River, fields of grass, and statues of Elvis. He highlights a quote from another photographer: "A good photographer must love life," it begins." Beccaynr (talk) 20:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Sources

These sources may be useful for article development:

• 71 Commands in 13 Minutes: Officers Gave Tyre Nichols Impossible Orders (NYT, Jan. 29, 2023) "A Times analysis found that officers gave dozens of contradictory and unachievable orders to Mr. Nichols."
• What Memphis police videos show, and don’t show, about Tyre Nichols beating (WaPo, Jan. 28, 2023) "The videos, which were edited by police before their release, were shot between 8:24 p.m. and 9:02 p.m. that night. The four clips collectively run about an hour in total."

Beccaynr (talk) 02:28, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Just added these to the {{Refideas}} banner at top of page. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 02:46, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I added something about the impossible orders given by officers. Bowler the Carmine | talk 18:55, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice, thank you. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 19:00, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Out of order use of taser

In the section "Traffic stop and death" the following is stated "At about 8:25 p.m., a struggle began between the officers and Nichols; they attempted to pin Nichols to the ground, threatened him, yelled expletives, and used pepper spray and a taser on him. The pepper spray also hit several of the other officers. Ultimately, Nichols broke free and ran south on Ross Road, where he was pursued by at least two officers." This gives the impression that the taser was used before Nichols began to flee which is not the case. According to the CNN article this section cites "At 8:25 p.m., one officer sprays Nichols in the face with pepper spray. Nichols then struggles to his feet and begins running from the officer as one another shoots a taser at him that apparently didn’t make contact."

Incase I need to recite the article https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-memphis-friday/index.html LetsMakeThingsRight (talk) 03:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The NYT timeline https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/01/27/us/tyre-nichols-police-beating-timeline.html says they used a stun gun before Nichols began to flee. Also, a stun gun is different from a taser, so that's another small contradiction between our sources. Can anyone watch the video and comment on the correct order? CharredShorthand.talk; 03:41, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Just watched Video #1 again.

A bit after the 1:25 mark they start screaming and threatening to deploy the taser (during the struggle, and the taser is pressed against Nichols while on the ground, but does not appear to be deployed at that point).

Shortly after 2:05 the officer raises the taser and aims it at Nichols as he runs. Then at about 2:10 you can hear the electric clicking sound, likely meaning it was deployed at that point.

Later on in the video, at about the 6:20 mark, you can hear the officer saying "Okay, I gotta find my glasses and get this damn taser loaded" and then you can see him fumbling with the taser, and reloading it.

Does that help? 98.155.8.5 (talk) 04:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, makes sense. I'll try to fix the order in a bit. CharredShorthand.talk; 02:35, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

@CharredShorthand: Also, I think the New York Times source cited above is using the word "stun gun" in place of the term taser for some reason, I'm not sure why. The cops are very clearly yelling that they are gonna tase him over and over many times. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 04:20, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Traffic stop and death; biased opinionated statements

'In the released videos from after the beating, two officers claim Nichols reached for their weapons. This claim is not substantiated by the videos, ...'

The second sentence is attributed to the New York Times. The New York Times reported "That was not visible on any of the four videos released by the city on Friday night." Quote the New York Times, do not put a opinionated spin on it. 2601:681:5780:AB76:981E:1462:CA87:2341 (talk) 06:14, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

"not substantiated" is shaded enough to make the point clear that it was not on the videos. I believe the editor that put that in read the turn of phrase from a different source, but cited the NYT, perhaps in haste. Let's call it paraphrasing. Abductive (reasoning) 09:59, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

That statement was not substantiated by any video evidence, including the video that allegation was recorded on. The New York Times is not required to know this. The videos that were released are enough to say video evidence of that claim has not been brought forward. LkeYHOBSTorItEwA (talk) 13:23, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

It is prejudicial, "not seen" does not equal "was not on the videos". It is not paraphrasing. It completely misses the point the New York Times made. Lastly, the side comment should not be included in the Traffic Stop and Death section; this section should only chronicle the events as they happened as based on verifiable evidence. What the officer did and what the officers said is verifiable - it is on body cam footage. The veracity of the Officers claims should be and a different section - possibly Media Analysis. AgntOtrth (talk) 13:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

"Prejudicial" means you think this Misplaced Pages article will have an effect on the trial of the officers or on public opinion generally. That is unlikely. Social media, which is outside anyone's control, means that the reputation of the police across the US has taken a big hit. Nothing can be done about it here. Abductive (reasoning) 13:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

It is not neutral, which violates Misplaced Pages Neutral Point Of View. Abduction you stated "enough shade" according to Meriam-Webster "Shade is a subtle, sneering expression of contempt for or disgust ..." By your own words, the phrasing is an opinion, and not neutral.

As for prejudicial, you are incorrect as its meaning/definition. Meriam-Webster defines it as "1. tending to injure or impair. 2. leading to premature judgment or unwarranted opinion". The unwarranted opinion is the gross mischaracterization of the New York Times statement that specifically says "That was not visible on any of the four videos released by the city on Friday night." The way to fix the biased, opinionated, prejudicial, non-neutral phrasing is to simply directly quote the New York Times article. AgntOtrth (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

You really don't get it; "shading" (Dictionary.com says, "'a slight variation or difference of color, character, etc.") is an entirely different thing from a slang term "throwing shade". Abductive (reasoning) 21:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The way it's worded is fine. We don't need to quote every single article directly that describes the circumstances. And if you doubt the veracity of the statement, watch the videos yourself. The videos are reliable sources in and of themselves. It's fact that he never reaches for any officer's weapons in any of the videos. This whole proposed change is preposterous. Wes sideman (talk) 16:46, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

It is not a neutral statement. It is a simple edit, copy and paste, the citation does not need to edited. Why promote biased opinion? Promotion of biased opinions in Misplaced Pages, is why a reason so many see Misplaced Pages in a negative light. AgntOtrth (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

You just called a statement of simple fact "a biased opinion". I think you should probably take a look at what you're trying to accomplish here, and reconsider the method you're using to go about that. Either way, the statement is fine in the article as is. Wes sideman (talk) 17:35, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

There are also additional secondary sources that can be reviewed and incorporated, without resorting to original analysis of the video. "Not substantiated" can be legal jargon, and I think as we continue to review and incorporate sources, we can find a neutral compromise about how to convey the information if sources are not using this terminology. Beccaynr (talk) 17:39, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The neutral and clear statement is to copy and paste the exact statement of the New York Times. My goal is to be neutral, not biased as abductive indicated with throwing "shade". As worded in its current form, it misrepresents the New York Times. Keeping the mischaracterization speaks volumes lack of neutrality of this article. AgntOtrth (talk) 19:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree it would likely be helpful, per WP:WIKIVOICE, to add an attribution, e.g. "According to a review by a New York Times reporter, this was not visible in the videos" and include a direct link to the statement. I also think we have further sources available to help develop content for this, and we can be cautious in the meantime.

Also, I think the "expert" generally referred to in the following sentence from the New Yorker source should be identified, and the content in the article potentially refined, because the source includes "Later, in an exchange recorded after the beating, the officers suggested to one another that he had reached for their handguns. But the video footage makes that claim highly implausible, Seth W. Stoughton, an expert on the use of force and a former patrolman, told me." This source also states "Stoughton, a law professor at the University of South Carolina, who testified at the 2021 trial of a Minneapolis officer convicted of murdering George Floyd, noted that an officer typically shouts it out immediately if he sees a suspect reach for a weapon, and none did anything like that in the videos of their struggles with Nichols." Beccaynr (talk) 19:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Actually, "According to..." constructions run afoul of WP:INTEXT. Misplaced Pages reports the consensus view of the secondary sources, puts the sources' info into the refs. Abductive (reasoning) 21:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

As to attributing the NYT source, this is a suggested placeholder compromise while we review secondary sources - it appears to be one of the early reports, and based on what I have been reviewing, I think we have better sources. As to the vague wave at an "expert" in the next sentence, that seems different, and adding the identity of the expert seems important because this is their analysis. Beccaynr (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a judgement call in articles on politically charged topics. Were this an article on an earthquake or something, I would remove "According to the Los Angeles Times ..." immediately. Abductive (reasoning) 00:20, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Age of Tyre's son

In a live televised interview this morning, Tyre's mother corrected an interviewer when she mentioned Tyre's son as being 4, saying that his son is actually 5 years old. I have not seen a source quoting her on this yet, and so far all sources that ID the son's age say he's 4. Just something to keep an eye on, even though we probably can't change that yet. Wes sideman (talk) 16:36, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Coordinates

Given this NYT article, can we add in the coordinates to this location? I was looking at the Killing of George Floyd article, which includes coordinates, but couldn't find a source that states the actual numbers, just a myriad of sources stating the address or showing it on a map. This feels like enough information that no actual WP:OR is occuring if we do 35°01′48″N 89°50′20″W / 35.0301°N 89.8390°W / 35.0301; -89.8390, but was wondering if anyone had any opinions on the matter. Cerebral726 (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Obtaining a location from reliable secondary sources and using Google Maps or OSM to get the raw numbers for the coordinates is acceptable to me. The region:XXXX should be US-TN, though. Abductive (reasoning) 21:14, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Traffic stop and death: clarity of events

Ultimately, Nichols broke free and ran south on Ross Road, where he was pursued by at least two officers. Two more police units arrived at the scene of the traffic stop around 8:29 p.m. Footage showed that one officer who remained at the area of the traffic stop said, "I hope they stomp his ass".

Suggested rearrangement, Ultimately, Nichols broke free and ran south on Ross Road, where he was pursued by at least two officers. 'Footage shows two officers remained at the original traffic stop. Other Law Enforcement units arrived at the original traffic stop and were advised of the direction Nichols ran. At approximately 8:32pm, one of the Officers that remained at the scene of the original traffic stop said ""I hope they stomp his ass". At approximately 8:34pm, the other Officer that remained at the scene of the original traffic stop, drove away with the vehicle lights and siren on, in direction Nichols ran. AgntOtrth (talk) 19:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

New development - 6th officer

Memphis police suspend officer after firing five in Tyre Nichols case (Reuters)

Days after five Memphis police officers were fired and charged with murder in the fatal beating of Tyre Nichols, a sixth officer was suspended pending an investigation into his role in the case, the department said on Monday.The suspended officer - identified as Preston Hemphill - was relieved of duty with pay pending a hearing, a Memphis Police Department spokesperson said, noting that an investigation was under way. Hemphill is white.

Sixth officer suspended in Tyre Nichols death investigation (WaPo, January 30, 2023)

“Officer Preston Hemphill has been relieved of duty pending the outcome of the administrative investigation,” the police department told The Washington Post late Monday morning. “Officer Hemphill was hired in 2018.” Hemphill, a White man, was relieved of duty at the same time as the other five officers charged in the incident, said Kim Elder, a spokesperson for the Memphis Police. Hemphill has not been charged, Elder said. Hemphill’s body camera captures part of the initial confrontation with Nichols. In the video, Hemphill can be seen using a Taser on him. Later, a voice on the body cam that seems to be Hemphill’s says, “I hope they stomp his a--” after Nichols escaped."

6th Memphis officer relieved of duty in Nichols arrest (Associated Press)

Officer Preston Hemphill was relieved of duty shortly after the Jan. 7 arrest of Nichols Hemphill’s lawyer, Lee Gerald, said in a statement that Hemphill was the third officer at a traffic stop that preceded the violent arrest and that he activated his body camera. But Hemphill was not at the scene where Nichols was beaten, Gerald said. Hemphill is white. On body camera footage from the initial stop, Hemphill is heard saying that he stunned Nichols and declaring, “I hope they stomp his ass.”

6th Memphis Police Officer Suspended in Tyre Nichols Death (NYT)

The sixth officer, Preston Hemphill, has been placed on administrative leave; it is not clear exactly what role he played in the encounter. Officer Hemphill’s lawyer, Lee Gerald, said in a statement that one of the four videos of the encounter that were released by the city on Friday, labeled Video 1, came from Officer Hemphill’s body camera.

Beccaynr (talk) 20:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

#SunsetsForTyre

I noticed that the content about the social media campaign (sourced to Hassan, Jennifer (January 29, 2023). "Tyre Nichols loved sunsets. People are sharing glowing skies in his honor". The Washington Post. Retrieved 29 January 2023.) was removed with the edit summary "unencyclopedic" , and it is not clear to me if this is due to a lack of a citation at the end of this sentence or another objection related to its inclusion. The source has further explanation that could help develop the content, and I think it is encyclopedic within the section - from what I understand from the source, this campaign is also a reaction to the wide sharing of the graphic videos depicting the violence. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:18, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy ping Magnolia677. Beccaynr (talk) 20:36, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Lack of citation, and why is an encyclopedia listing hashtags? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification Magnolia677 - I think I either had or should have cited the sentence when I added the information about the social media campaign (because I would not randomly add social media hashtags), but in the interest of reducing refclutter, another editor may have removed it so the cite is only at the end of the paragraph. Would you agree to restore the content with the citation at the end of the sentence? Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 21:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Only one media outlet, The Washington Post, seems to have reported on it. This isn't a memorial or a biography, so I'm not sure of the encyclopedic value of informing readers that photos of sunsets are being posted to a hashtag. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:09, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

WaPo is a national news outlet, reporting on a public reaction, including to the widespread publicity of the videos, so it seems more than a memorial. The encyclopedic value seems supported by the national coverage and the reported public reaction to the event beyond Nichols, and the included content could be revised to make this more clear. Beccaynr (talk) 22:21, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Quick to put up video

I wonder why wiki is quick to put this heinous video up and but did not put up the video of Chauvin killing George Floyd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.24.144.21 (talk) 20:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that the video depicting the killing of Tyre Nichols was made available to the public much faster than the video footage regarding George Floyd, but I could be wrong about that. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 22:44, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization of "black"

Capitalizing "black" as a descriptor for the race is dumb and unnecessary. It may be part of the AP style guide now but it isn't part of Misplaced Pages's, and most other articles on this site don't capitalize the word even in the context of being a descriptor of the race. I suggest someone edit the article to revert the unnecessary capitalization which goes against the style principles most other articles use. 2601:405:4400:9420:116E:C6BF:4E8:E78 (talk) 17:39, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I was confused by this as well, but then I started to notice that many of the reliable sources from which we quote and reference do in fact capitalize the word "Black" to denote race. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 17:54, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

This is based on sources, e.g. in the NYT article Tyre Nichols Beating Opens a Complex Conversation on Race and Policing, it begins "The five officers charged with the murder of the young Black man are also Black, complicating the anguish and efforts at police reform.", in the WaPo article Black Memphis police spark dialogue on systemic racism in the U.S., "For the mother of Tyre Nichols, the fact that five Memphis police officers charged with beating her son are also Black has compounded her sorrow as she tries to cope with his violent death at age 29.", in NBC News: What we know about the 5 Memphis police officers charged with beating Tyre Nichols to death, "Like Nichols, all five former officers were Black." Beccaynr (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

According to it can be upcased, downcased, or even omitted. Cheers! {{u|WikiWikiWayne}} {Talk} 03:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

It’s unfortunate that this whole “Black” or “black” issue hasn’t been resolved at MoS. IMO, lowercase just looks better, but it doesn’t really matter that much. Some similar articles, like Murder of George Floyd, appear to do lowercase. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 04:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I think it is widely understood, at least in the United States, "Black" is the standard usage, and the lowercase may have offensive connotations when describing people, e.g. AP changes writing style to capitalize ″b″ in Black (AP, 2020, ""The lowercase black is a color, not a person." The Los Angeles Times, USA Today and NBC News last week embraced capitalization, and the National Association of Black Journalists urged other news organizations to follow. The death of Floyd, a Black man who died after a white Minneapolis police officer pressed a knee to his neck, sparked nationwide protests and lent momentum to a variety of social changes, from police reform and the public removal of Confederate statues and flags to the capitalization of Black.")

So it seems to be a potential problem in need of attention for the lowercase "black" to be used in the article of the man whose murder fueled a shift towards a more respectful use of language. I have previously looked to the sources for guidance on what to do in a particular article, given the state of the MOS, so perhaps that can help the Murder of George Floyd article. Beccaynr (talk) 05:46, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Like I said before, I don't think it matters a whole lot. Your arguments about the way RS use "Black" in the context of this event and others is compelling. "Black" (with capital) seems to be the most correct thing to do here based on what we've got. I'm merely saying I wish MoS had a blanket answer. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 05:50, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, and I wish the MOS had clear encouragement to look to the sources discussing the subject to help determine usage in particular articles, because my understanding is there can be regional variations. Thanks again, Beccaynr (talk) 06:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

So long as we're not mentioning "white" people in the same article, I think it's OK. Not aesthetically pleasant, but fair. If we start mentioning white people, remember to treat both common nouns/adjectives equally (I think that's based on a guideline, too.) InedibleHulk (talk) 09:35, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Police report contradicts evidence

First police report in Tyre Nichols case contradicts video evidence and didn't mention beating by police – CNN, Jan. 31, 2023

Initial Police Report on Tyre Nichols Arrest Is Contradicted by Videos – The New York Times, Jan. 31, 2023

More to come once report is fully released. Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:11, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Overlinking to common words

According to we should not be wikilinking to Black, Black Americans, Afro-American, African Americans, etc. Cheers! {{u|WikiWikiWayne}} {Talk} 06:44, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I had restored one wikilink because Black links to a capitalized "Black American", as a way to further support the capitalized usage in this article , in addition to the sources. Wikilinks had been removed because the term seemed easily understood , but perhaps it is helpful here, given the Talk page discussion about capitalization and the various changes between "Black" and "black" in the article - the guidance of MOS:OVERLINK includes, "what is well known in your age group, line of work, or country may be less known in others". Beccaynr (talk) 07:09, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

A common word that's central to a subject is still worth a Wikilink. You wouldn't link car here, for instance, but you wouldn't link black there. Here, the six main characters aren't black like cars, but they're black like African Americans, and that certainly has a lot to do with why anything links here. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization of "SCORPION"

Street Crimes Operation to Restore Peace in Our Neighborhoods, or SCORPION. It is like STRESS, or Stop the Robberies, Enjoy Safe Streets

--91.54.6.249 (talk) 13:20, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the addition of information about the police report

Specifically . Fine to add some of this, but there are several issues I perceive.

1. Cite to NY Post - considered unreliable per Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Perennial sources.
2. Over-quoting.
3. Written as a narrative - it could be much more concise.
4. We probably don't need all those extra small sections.

CharredShorthand.talk; 16:39, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Can we please stop the biased commentary in the Traffic Stop and Death section

Let's just make a separate section titled Media Analysis. CNN, New York Times, Washington post, like all other media outlets have a narrow and biased point of view to publish.

The traffic stop should only be the events of the initial stop and were he was tackled, beaten, and cuffed. There is zero reason to interject the biased commentary of a media outlet in the Traffic Stop and Death section. The Traffic stop and death section does not have a neutral tone. AgntOtrth (talk) 17:59, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

@AgntOtrth: "CNN, New York Times, Washington post, like all other media outlets have a narrow and biased point of view to publish." These are called reliable sources, whether you like it or not. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 18:04, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

It does not matter if they are considered "reliable". What matters is the lack of neutrality. The traffic stop and death section does not need and should have the biased opinions of the "reporters". Just MOVE the biased commentary to a new section. AgntOtrth (talk) 18:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

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