Talk:The Lord of the Rings: Difference between revisions

Browse history interactively ← Previous edit Next edit →Content deleted Content addedVisual WikitextInline

Revision as of 07:23, 10 February 2023 editJohnalexjay (talk \| contribs)5 edits →Inaccurate Reference Attribution: new sectionTag: New topic ← Previous edit		Revision as of 09:07, 10 February 2023 edit undoChiswick Chap (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers297,176 edits →Inaccurate Reference Attribution: thxNext edit →
Line 121:		Line 121:

	I think it would be better to remove that sentence completely. There is a cleaner lead to the next paragraph without it anyway. ] (]) 07:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)		I think it would be better to remove that sentence completely. There is a cleaner lead to the next paragraph without it anyway. ] (]) 07:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

			:: Thanks for this. The relationship between the two "books" is far more complex than this, as Tolkien had been working on ] (''The Silmarillion'' writ large but unpublished, in thousands of partial drafts) since at least 1917, and built in many allusions to "Silmarillion" events in earlier ages to provide an ]. Clearly the citation is not ideal to convey this concept. I'll look out something better. ] (]) 09:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:07, 10 February 2023

Skip to table of contents

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Lord of the Rings article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Template:Vital article

This article is written in British English with Oxford spelling (colour, realize, organization, analyse; note that -ize is used instead of -ise) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

The Lord of the Rings is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

The Lord of the Rings has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 5, 2006.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 16, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
April 17, 2006	Good article nominee	Not listed
April 29, 2006	Peer review	Reviewed
June 18, 2006	Featured article candidate	Promoted
September 29, 2008	Featured article review	Demoted
December 26, 2009	Peer review	Reviewed
August 31, 2020	Good article nominee	Listed
Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 29, 2021, and July 29, 2022.
Current status: Former featured article, current good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Middle-earth Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle-earth, which aims to build an encyclopedic guide to J. R. R. Tolkien, his legendarium, and related topics. Please visit the project talk page for suggestions and ideas on how you can improve this and other articles.Middle-earthWikipedia:WikiProject Middle-earthTemplate:WikiProject Middle-earthTolkien
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note: Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, all Tolkien legendarium-related articles that cover in-universe material before the current action must be written in past tense. Please see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Middle-earth/Standards for more information about this and other article standards.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Books

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Novels: Fantasy Top‑importance

	Novels portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.NovelsWikipedia:WikiProject NovelsTemplate:WikiProject Novelsnovel
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Fantasy task force (assessed as Top-importance).

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Children's literature Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Children's literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Children's literature on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Children's literatureWikipedia:WikiProject Children's literatureTemplate:WikiProject Children's literaturechildren and young adult literature

Top

This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Tasks you can do:

Here are some open tasks for WikiProject Children's literature, an attempt to create and standardize articles related to children's literature. Feel free to help with any of the following tasks.

Add {{Portal|Children's literature}} to the See also section of related articles.
Tag the talk pages of related articles with {{WikiProject Children's literature}}
Join WikiProject Children's literature and list yourself as a Participant in the project.
Cleanup: A cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category, the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects.
Deletion discussions: listed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Literature
Notability: Articles with notability concerns, listed at WikiProject Notability
Rate the Unassessed articles in the Children's literature WikiProject.
References: Add references to Unreferenced BLPs.
Requested articles: Create a requested article on literature
Stubs: Improve a stub-class article

edit

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Media franchises Top‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Media franchises, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics related to media franchises on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Media franchisesWikipedia:WikiProject Media franchisesTemplate:WikiProject Media franchisesmedia franchise
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:WP1.0

Popular culture (inactive)

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Popular culture, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Popular cultureWikipedia:WikiProject Popular cultureTemplate:WikiProject Popular culturePopular culture

This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

Furness, Hannah (9 March 2012). "MPs Misplaced Pages pages 'changed from inside Parliament'". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 14 March 2012.

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers.

This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.

]

Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

"Gandalf proves that Frodo's Ring is..."

The caption under the photo of the One Ring with its inscription glowing is so strange that I cannot figure out what the author was trying to say. If I could make sense of it, I'd clean it up. Perhaps someone who does understand it can do that? Jyg (talk) 23:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the text, which was added by an IP on June 15. It made zero sense, and I can't for the life of me figure out why one relatively short sentence needed seven commas. I think the whole "this entire chunk of the article isn't in the article but is actually transcluded through a template" is really bizarre though, but maybe there's some consensus or rationale for that which I'm sure I'm unaware of. - Aoidh (talk) 23:15, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. The summary of the narrative is shared with the three articles on the individual volumes, which have their own, unshared, reception sections. Chiswick Chap (talk) 03:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah okay. Not the way I'd personally do it, though I do see the merits. I can't really find fault with something just because its unusual to me though. If it works it works, though there is the slight downside of the templates likely being on fewer watchlists, letting unconstructive edits through, but I've put it on my watchlist too. Hopefully nobody will add sentences, where, there, are, so, many, commas, unnecessarily, again. - Aoidh (talk) 03:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I believe I inspired this arrangement. I intended to do this as a waystation on the road to the amalgamation of the three volume articles into one article for the novel. Chiswick Chap agreed with me at the time, but has since reneged. If we are not to move to one article, I don't see the point of sharing the summary of the narrative. Just saying.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Maybe put in Christian Novels category

JRR Tolkien said himself that The Lord of the Rings was a catholic/christian work, so should we maybe put “Christian Novels” in the category section? Thoughts. Wolfquack (talk) 01:37, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

He did, but he never called it a novel, indeed he disliked the (real world) category; and the book is devoid of religion, on the surface. So, it's an awkward fit for the category at best. Maybe not go there. Chiswick Chap (talk) 01:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I think that would cause controversy and confusion.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:46, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Eh ok, since the consensus seems no I guess I’ll leave it at that. Wolfquack (talk) 14:40, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

The Lord?

Do we have evidence that The Lord is Sauron? What rules out that the One Ring is the Lord in the title? It would be a shame to lead the article with a statement that crushes a possibly intended ambiguity 82.152.203.16 (talk) 14:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Sauron is explicitly named as the Lord of the Rings by Gandalf. There used to be a note on the article to clarify, but someone's taken it out. GimliDotNet (talk) 15:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

See Talk:The Lord of the Rings/Archive 6#Lord of the Rings referring to Sauron? for more on this GimliDotNet (talk) 15:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Annotated, as clearly helpful. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:01, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Also see the poem, "One Ring to Rule Them All".--Jack Upland (talk) 05:53, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate Reference Attribution

Under the section "Concept and Creation", in the "Writing" subsection, the first paragraph ends with:

As the story progressed, he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology.

The reference for the above statement is as follows:

Rérolle, Raphaëlle (5 December 2012). "My Father's 'Eviscerated' Work – Son Of Hobbit Scribe J. R. R. Tolkien Finally Speaks Out". Le Monde/Worldcrunch. Archived from the original on 10 February 2013.

The claim "he brought in elements from The Silmarillion mythology" is not explicitly or even implicitly mentioned in the cited article. The closest related idea from the article is perhaps:

In 1937, as soon as it was published, The Hobbit immediately became a critical and popular success, to the point where its then publisher, Allen and Unwin, demanded a sequel urgently. Tolkien, though, did not wish to continue in the same vein. He had instead almost finished a narrative of the most ancient times of his universe, which he called The Silmarillion. Too difficult, decreed the publisher, who continued to harass him. The writer, a bit half-heartedly, accepted the project of writing a new story. In fact, he was about to set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.

But there is no indication that as the writing of the Lord of the Rings books progressed, the author leveraged more elements from the previously unfinished book. The article states the writer accepted the project of writing a new story, implying that work stopped on the previous project. No connection is stated between the contents of the previously unfinished work and the new project; it is only after stopping the old work and accepting the new project that the writer would "set in place the first stone of what would become The Lord of the Rings.".

I think it would be better to remove that sentence completely. There is a cleaner lead to the next paragraph without it anyway. Johnalexjay (talk) 07:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for this. The relationship between the two "books" is far more complex than this, as Tolkien had been working on his Legendarium (The Silmarillion writ large but unpublished, in thousands of partial drafts) since at least 1917, and built in many allusions to "Silmarillion" events in earlier ages to provide an impression of depth. Clearly the citation is not ideal to convey this concept. I'll look out something better. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Categories: