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Celtic Language?

It says in the article that after St. Patrick was captured he began to learn "the Celtic language." It is commonly agreed among Irish historians that the Irish are not actually Celtic (e.g. the Irish learned the Celtic style of art from communication with the European mainland, etc.). So did they speak the Celt language? I defer to an expert on this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:24.226.16.47 (talk • contribs)

To be more precise, what the article means is that he learned "a Goidelic language" or "the Old Irish language". Patrick would have already spoken a Brythonic language and some Latin. Depending on exactly where he came from in Britain, he might have known a Goidelic language as well. Celtic languages and Insular Celtic languages explain how Goidelic and Brythonic may have been related to each other and to other Celtic languages. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Please identify your source in claiming that "is commonly agreed among Irish historians that the Irish are not actually Celtic." Recent research has revealed that the Celts did not displace pre-celtic peoples but Celts did come to Ireland and the predominant culture remained celtic until English colonization. Second, Gaeilge is a celtic language of the Q-celtic branch of the Celtic language family, thus the Irish of Patrick's day spoke a celtic language and it is assumed that Patrick learned said language. Ergo, he learned a celtic language (though, as noted above, he probably already spoke a P-celtic brythonic language prior to his enslavement.

I have seen broken dates for specific invasions of the British Isles from mainland europe during the collapse of the Roman empire, these not only include Picts, Scots, Irish, Angles and Saxons and more bizzarely English! I will have to dig the book out with dates. --Pandaplodder 19:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

St. Patrick: Fact and Fiction

I have removed 'was captured by Niall Noigiallach' as it is an obvious error. I will try to come back some time in the future and help with citation and new material.

What are the sources for the following statments?

• 1 - "born Patricius Magonus Sucatus"
• 2 - " seems to have studied at the monastery of Lérins on the Côte d'Azur from 412 to 415 ...He spent the next 15 years at Auxerre were he became a disciple of Saint Germanus of Auxerre and was ordained possibly about 417."
• 3 - "Saint Germanus consecrated Patrick bishop about 431, and sent him to Ireland to succeed Saint Palladius, the first bishop, who had died earlier that year. "
• 4 - "There was some contact with the pope. Patrick visited Rome in 442 and 444. "
• 5 - "Popular devotion to Patrick began in France, long before Sucat received the noble title of Patricius"

These and other statments seriously mar what is otherwise a fairly good and reasonably well written article. Also the chronology implicit in them is all over the place. The fact of the matter is that no one know for sure what the dates of Patrick's life are; those of 461 (arriving in Ireland) and 491 (death) are estimates arrived at only after decades of discussion. Will whoever rewrote this article please show the basis for including these statments. Thank you. Fergananim

I've re-revised the article again in line with what I wrote above, for the simple reason that Pcassidy reverted back to his version again without citing sources for statments I take issue with. I dislike doing this unilaterally because it is against the spirit of wikipedia, but it seems I have to draw attention to this in some manner other than being polite. Fergananim, 18:52 pm, 18th April 2005.

• I did? Where? I just checked through my edits and all I can find is reverts of blatant vandalism and one weird edit (documented below). I also reverted "confession" -> "confessio" in the last two weeks or so - is this what you are referring to? - Pete C 18:11, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Hello Pete, glad to hear from you. The basic issues I have with the article as you wrote it - forgive me if I have mistaken you for another editor - are outlined above. I have no problem whatsoever with them being included in an article concerning Pat, so long as they are placed under some heading along the lines of "Speculations about St. Patrick". Because we know so very little about Patrick I really feel it is vital to seperate facts, speculation and hagiography. And - I mean no offense - much of what I have outlined above falls under the latter two categorys. Thank you for your time. Ferganaim, 22:08, 15th April 2005.

• OOokay. You have me confused with someone else, I suspect. I've no comments really re. the points of contention above, as I didn't add them. - Pete C 22:21, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Okay, cheers. Sorry for that! Ferganaim

Most theories place St.Patrick's birthplace in Wales. - Peter

(The above anonymously contributed without reading even the Misplaced Pages article. No consensus will ever be reached on precisely where in Romanized Britain the location vico banavem taburniae was sited. Wales is among the possibilities. --Wetman 02:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC))

Patrick was born during the Romano British period so todays boundaries wouldn't have existed as England didn't then. You only have to ask where did Pen-y-Ghent in the Yorkshire dales get its name from. I'd go along with that he was born near Bewcastle in what is now Cumbria (Cumbria gets it's name from the same as Wales - Cymru), if you also add that Patrick on his way home was ship wrecked on the coast (there is an old ruined chapel at Heysham in Lancashire called St Patricks and it is said that it is near to where Patrick came ashore. As patrick travelled north home he would have travelled along a Roman road called High Street (Windermere/Ambleside to Penrith) near to this ancient road in Cumbria is Patterdale with its St Patricks Well. --Pandaplodder 19:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Not NPOV

This article presents a great deal of speculative and controversial information as plain fact. For example, I don't believe it's remotely possible to say authoritatively that "His father was Calpornius, a deacon, son of Potitus, who was Romano-British".

The Confessio, listed in the External links, begins "I, Patrick, a sinner, a most simple countryman, the least of all the faithful and most contemptible to many, had for father the deacon Calpurnius, son of the late Potitus, a priest, of the settlement of Bannavem Taburniae..." I'll check to make a footnote in the entry. --Wetman 11:17, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... the article currently starts with

Saint Patrick (circa 373 - March 17, 461) is the patron saint of Ireland. He was born around 385 in Caledonia, probably at Kilpatrick.

(emphasis added)

The last two external links give 387 to 390 as the date of birth... which of these three is correct? (I don't think "circa 373" and "around 385" are the same thing.) Lupo 14:07, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

387 to 390 sounds like circa 385 to me, so lets pick that. -- Derek Ross

Re: Dalriada According to my sources, the Irish kingdom in Co. Antrim was called Dal Riada. Irish seafarers (called Scotti) carried colonizers from that county to establish the kingdom of Dalriada in Argyll in northern Britain, in what would later become Scotland. -- Larry Gross

Big disparity with the birth dates - why is it now "circa 420s"? -- Ian Schorr

Baptist vs. Catholic POV stuff

Whatever did 192.31.106.34 do to the page tonight? Deleted legit links and added a major Baptist spin on a reasonably NPOV article? What's up with *that*?? Discussion of trans-vs-con- substantiation don't really belong in a biog. such as this. It reads like a Baptist sermon (which I'm familiar with). Recommend reversion. I've already rv'd the deleted links - that's just vandalism! Pcassidy 22:38, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Furthermore, large chunks were C&P'd from; http://www.calvaryroadbaptist.org/Article%20-%20St.%20Patrick%20A%20Baptist.htm and various other sites. Pcassidy 22:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I reverted it as it was basically a POV rant about how Patrick was a Baptist and all the Catholics are wrong, nyaah nyaah. Biased, preachy, irrelevant. I'm neither Catholic nor Baptist, BTW Pcassidy 14:49, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I thought Baptists were a Protestant group that originated many centuries later. What's going on? Michael Hardy 03:55, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

They argue that in fact they predate Martin Luther and Protestantism and were an underground church.GordyB 10:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is currently a reference to 'Catholic Celtic church', this is extremely POV. The current Catholic church may consider Patrick a Catholic but that doesn't explain why the Pope gave the go-ahead to the Normans to invade Ireland and 'Catholicise' Ireland. The Monks of Iona refused to recognise the Catholic church as being the same as the Celtic church. Even in England the Synod of Whitby came about because the Roman church did not like the Celtic one.

As discussed above many other churches consider the Celtic church to be ancestral to their own e.g. the Anglicans / Espiscopolians (since the church was native to Britain and Ireland and not part of the see of Rome). The Celtic cross is used by the Church of England as a symbol and native Saints e.g. Aidan are seen as Anglican saints.

I think endorsement of one point of view is a bad idea and this article needs a section to discuss the different claims about St Patrick. He is somebody who is popular in Ireland with Protestants as well as Catholics.GordyB 15:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Could someone please clean this article up? Specifically: one way or the other, could someone with sources and citations please clear up whether or not St. Patrick killed pagans.(Anon.)

"NPOV", so abused at Misplaced Pages, actually means "Neutral point-of-view." --Wetman 15:47, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I too would *really* like to see this cleared up. I have read that St. Patrick was responsible for the death of many pagans, and even accounts accusing him and his followers of burning pagan books and shrines. However, I do not recall any of the sources as being particularly authoritative. Given, searching online doesn't turn up a whole lot along these lines either, but that is the nature of search - so many people like St. Patrick that of course all the high ranking links will be positive. Thoughts?

categories

• would that qualify for 2 "death year" categories? I don't know wikipedia's position on unreliable death dates. (clem 20:54, 1 May 2005 (UTC))

Patron saints of Ireland

If there is no opposition, I would like to add that saint Patrick is the patron saint of Ireland, along with saint Brigit and saint Columba, as it is given as fact in patron saint. Gene.arboit 19:47, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

External links

I removed the following as essentially duplicating content in other links. ] says where links should be used, it sems to me as if there are rather too many all saying much the same thing.

• The Confession of St Patrick
• St Patrick
• Saint Patrick
• Fr. Ciaran Needham SPS, "Saint Patrick's Life"
• Evidence regarding date of birth
• The Real St. Patrick and Celtic Spirituality

Just zis  Guy, you know? / AfD? 00:04, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Age?

Browsing this topic quickly I noticed the date of birth and date of death given at the top, which puts St. Patrick at an age of 106 upon his death. This isn't commented on anywhere in the body of the article, which seems a bit strange for such a remarkable age.

Citations for birth and death dates would be nice given their relative unbelievability. Catholic.org gives his birth as 387 and his death as 461, dates I am much more inclined to believe.

I agree that at least one of the dates of birth and death in the article is probably wrong. According to the dates are 415 and 493, so he died at a more reasonable age of 78 years. Lino Mastrodomenico 19:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The dates you quote match what Liam de Paor guesses in Saint Patrick's World and other reliable sources are more or less happy with a death date in the 490s. I didn't find a single recent history that accepted the early (461 AD) death date. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Great Britain

I have a thing with editing out the term 'Britain', except when referred to for etymological or terminological reasons. Call it a compulsion, a pain in the neck, or whatever, there's a very good reason for it, and I always make sure that every time I edit away that word, I am doing something constructive, no matter how minor. Whereas 'Great Britain' clearly refers to an island, the meaning of which is unambiguous, 'Britain' is shorthand for the island (Great Britain), the archipelago to which it belongs (British Isles), or the country to which it belongs (United Kingdom). Thus, 'Britain' is either sloppy, misleading, or both sloppy and misleading. Bastin8 23:48, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There was no country of Great Britain in the time of Saint Patrick. In this context it would be referring to the Roman province considered Britain, therefore Britain is the correct wording here. IrishGuy 23:53, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no country of Great Britain now, either; Great Britain is an island. Furthermore, the Roman province was called 'Britannia', not 'Britain'. If you mean the Roman province, write 'Britannia', not 'Britain'; 'Britain' doesn't actually mean too much by itself (hence the content of the article on Britain), so its use should be avoided if one is to ensure encyclopaedic accuracy and precision. Bastin8 00:29, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

No need to be disingenuous. The Roman province is accepted as both Britain and Britannia. In this case, either one would work, whereas Great Britain would be wildly inaccurate. IrishGuy 07:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Please, Irish Guy, read Great Britain or British Isles (terminology); it is an island, not a country. --Robdurbar 08:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

British Isles come from a corruption of Pretannic Isles which is the very first reference to the Islands anywhere. --Pandaplodder 19:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

This used to be a good article

If a bit on the slight side. However, someone keeps adding unverified stuff about him been called Succatt as a child, and various other bits. I'm way too tired at the moment to edit them all out, and the same must be done with the majority of the 'references' as far too many of them churn out the same old mistakes. We really need to do more for our patron saint. Is mise, a weary Irish historian, Fergananim 00:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistancies

From the "Early Life" heading: "In doing so he became the first Christian missionary in Ireland."

From the "Mission" heading: "Patrick was not the first Christian missionary to Ireland, as men such as"

Which is it? --t3 17:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate correction to Birth section?

Hi, was just looking up to see where Saint Patrick is thought to have been born and see that this isn't known for sure. The paragraph starts by saying that he was born 'somewhere on the west coast of Great Britain', yet it goes on to say that he may have been born near Boulogne. Should the sentence not therefore read 'somewhere on the west coast of Great Britain or north coast of France'? By the way, I'm staying clear of this 'Britain' vs. 'Brittania' vs. Great Britain' debate!:) Kind regards, Pconlon 10:37, 3 August 2006

Northern Irish

Can we not just be honest and mention that Saint Patrick was a famous Northern Irish person? Those of you of little faith, check this: List of Northern Irish people El Gringo 23:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

County Antrim is mentioned.--Wetman 01:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

So was Nigeria :-)

Doing some work

I don't see any reason why this can't be at least a good article, if not a featured one. I'm boldy refactoring and taking a swipe at adding formal citations. The references appear to all be there, but putting them in footnotes style will, I think, help the article's chances. Any other suggestions would be welcome. In particular, if there's any information that looks suspicious to anyone, slapping a {{citationneeded}} on it would be very helpful.

Please forgive any Americanisms; I'm consciously trying to keep this in British English, as I think that's appropriate for the subject, but I'm sure I'll slip up now and again. -- Vary | Talk 00:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Death - Two Patricks controversy

From the Article "A lecture entitled "The Two Patricks", published in 1942 by T. F. O'Rahilly, caused enormous controversy by proposing that there had been two "Patricks", Palladius and Patrick," However, I have, while researching the history of Scottish religions, found earlier referances to the differenciation of Patrick and Palladius. The earliest I have is dated 1826. Cite book

 | last = Low
 | first = The Rev. Alexander
 | title = The history of Scotland ... to the middle of the ninth century
 | publisher = Bell and Bradfute, Edinburgh
 | date = 1826
 | pages = Page 58

Rincewind42 14:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

O'Rahilly's point was not that Palladius and Patricius were different people, which was never doubted so far as I know, but that many of the Patricius references in the annals were referring to Palladius. Cheers, Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Why did Patrick return to Ireland?

When he was in Ireland, he must have grown to greatly love the people there, because when he got home he couldn't put the Irish out of his mind, and finally gave in and returned to Ireland, convinced that it was Christ speaking within him, ordering him to go back.

Cahill, Thomas, How the Irish Saved Civilization. (New York: Anchor Books, 1995), pp. 105-106

Spunkiel 22:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

We could just see what Patrick wrote himself: the article quotes his account of why went back. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Míliuc moccu Bóin

Given the similarities between the Druidic religion, with its human sacrifice and worship of Belus, to the Phoenician Canaanite religion of Baal, it is interesting that St. Patrick was sold as a slave to a Druidic warlord named Miliucc (Milchu) which could plausibly be a Semitic name — Melech / Moloch meaning "king". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talk • contribs).

Could be, but unless there's some sort of reliable source that connects these things, they don't belong in the article. I removed the mention of Míliuc moccu Bóin you added: Patrick's surviving writings give no such name (Tirechan does, but...). Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:11, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Unreferenced material removed from article

The following material, which duplicates things elsewhere, which are referenced, was removed by me.

Start

==Birth== {{Unreferenced|date=February 2007}} According to his ''Confessio'', Patrick was born in ''vico banavem taburniae'', somewhere along the west coast of ] or north coast of ]. ''Vico'' means 'little settlement' or ']'. ''Bannavem'' is the ]. ''Taburniae'' is a suffix meaning 'of the Taburnia', probably relating to a tribal group. However, it has been argued that the correct spelling should be ''Bannaventa Burniae'' possibly meaning the 'Promontory Hill of the Burnia'. The place has never been identified with certainty. Suggested sites include ] in ], ] in ], ] and ] (Latin: ]) in ], ] in ], ] in ] and ] (Latin: ]) in ]. A further claim is made for ]<!-- http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18480/18480-h/18480-h.htm -->, then a part of ]. ==Early life== {{Unreferenced|date=February 2007}} Although Patrick came from a ] family, he was not particularly religious before his capture with "many thousands of people" by raiders and sold as a ] in Ireland. He was a sheperd for 6 years. Patrick's enslavement, however, markedly strengthened his faith. In his confession of faith Patrick writes how, "In that strange land (Ireland) the Lord opened my unbelieving eyes." He escaped, as legend has it, under the direction of an angel, and after a number of adventures returned home to his parents. One night he heard voices begging him to return to Ireland. Great Britain at this time was undergoing turmoil following the withdrawal of Roman troops in 407 and Roman central authority in 410. Populations were on the move on the European continent, and the recently converted Christian Britain was being colonised by ] ].

End

If there are things here which belong in the article, they should be referenced when returned to it, and ideally placed in a logical position in the article. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Why dont you do some research then instead of deleting large chunks of the article. What a negative style of editing. G-Man * 20:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Here are a few links Saint Patrick's confessio St Patrick's Life

You're missing the point with that reference. The Declaration is quoted at length (in Patrick in his own words) already, which shows how little of the article you read. If it were simply a case of adding a reference to it, I'd have done that. But the problematic stuff is not a quotation, or a paraphrase, of his letters. It's all the other stuff and the fact that what's worth having is already there.

There are a whole list of possible sites of "Banna Venta Berniae", but no refs for who said so. De Paor glosses it , and Thomas beats the drum for Birdoswald, but who says Boulogne or Northants? That doesn't seem like the conventional wisdom, and France surely doesn't deserve a mention.

The Early Life paragraph is largely duplicated in the section Patrick in his own words, but there the citations are quoted from a printed version. The relevance of the Roman departure and the Anglo-Saxons isn't clear given that Patrick's life can't be reliably dated, so that we have no idea if the Romans were still holding Britannia (Koch's recent suggestion of a mid-/late-4th century date) or had long gone (if Patrick died in the 490s as seems the general view). Why you insist on adding stuff that's 80% duplicated, for the easily referencable things, and 20% unreferenced speculation, is a mystery to me. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Why change what seems to be a perfectly logical structure (lead, background, autobiography, biography,...) to one that duplicates stuff and jumps around (lead, early life , background, autobiography , biography,...]]? Any book on Patrick would start by setting the scene, which the article did, but no longer. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Link to: http://web.ncf.ca/er719/patrick.html

This link is added in good faith to direct the reader to additional resources not contained within this article which are relevant as they include folklore, stories, songs and illustrations relating directly to the saint and the perception of the saint through time. The web page is relevant to the article to which it is attached. There is NO advertizing. The article focuses upon the life of the saint but does not contain primary documents relating to the life of the saint nor the folklore and tradition which has grown up around the saint over time- this is essential information for a reader interested in the saint and it is contained on the linked pages. Please restore. Note also- If you remove a link perhaps it is best to discuss (yes I negleted to but two wrongs dont make a right. Thanks for the note on my talk page -should have gone here.)Anamanam 20:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the lead so that Patrick's life comes first, followed by the dating stuff. Hopefully this will be more popular. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Saint Patrick's Day

He is mostly known in the United States for this holiday, which is much more a celebration of the Irish people than of the saint himself. It has its own article but could a little be said here? It is coming up next month, BTW. Steve Dufour 06:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Maewyn Succat

Apparently his name, maybe that should be filtered in. He isn't Patricius until consecrated as a bishop aged 40 or so. Hakluyt bean 23:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The only name Patrick uses for himself is Patricius ("Ego Patricius, peccator rusticissimus"). His other names come from Tirechán and they are mentioned in the section on his and Muirchú's writings. They aren't glossed there, but probably should be. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Featured?

Aside from maybe a few pics, what's left to get this featured? I'm surprised at the number of references here... there's more here than for WWII! Colonel Marksman 00:41, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Lots. It needs copyediting to make the prose less dull and lumpen. The Patrick in legend section needs expanding, and referencing. To match the Early Traditions, there should be something on later ones. The Sainthood and Remembrance section needs work. And the article should probably say that the Slemish claims aren't believed by historians (or so it seems from the ones I read). We don't mention the competing claims over his place of burial. And so on. Plenty still to do! Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I also think we could put the dating/identification controversy in one section, so that the info can be referred to without reiteration in later sections.--Cúchullain /c 20:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Where was St Patrick from?

Well, it was from either Britain or France, some scholars say either Scotland or Wales. The doubt should be woven into the text of the subject. Gaul is not affirmed? Manopingo 01:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

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