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Tabloids used as citation in Controversies section

The claim that Dilbert was pulled from 77 newspapers for "anti-woke" content is only supported with a reference to the Toronto Sun—a North American tabloid not considered a reliable source per discussion on WP:RSN. Other discussion of this incident in other non-tabloid news media does not mention the content of recent strips nor draw connections between their plotlines and Dilbert being pulled. The discussion of plotlines in that section should then be spurious, no? If nobody objects I'll use a more reliable source in that section sometime this evening and rewrite for clarity. I've already edited out the phrase "poking fun at woke culture" as this is clearly loaded language that is unsupported by reliable sources. 217.105.24.185 (talk) 10:25, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Wasn’t this whole thing as a response to a Gallup poll question? We may need more context. 41.58.235.170 (talk) 15:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

These are two separate incidents. The recent rant was in response to a Rasmussen poll that asked if people agree with the statement: "It's okay to be white", which had a history of association with white supremacy; I don't know whether Rasmussen made the phrase's history clear to respondents of not, but regardless, it's separate from the September 2022 controversy. DFlhb (talk) 16:31, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

There are now many reliable sources that say that Dilbert is being pulled from newspapers in response to Adams' comments about Black people made on a podcast released on February 22, 2023. For example, Variety, Forbes, the San Francisco Chronicle. Toughpigs (talk) 18:55, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I do believe the sourcing concern brought up was about the September 2022 paragraph, not the February one. Will look for sources if I have time. DFlhb (talk) 19:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the OP is about the sourcing of Adams being pulled in September and if other more reliable sources make any connection to "plotlines in the strip parodied ESG strategies". I also think the Ben Garrison line might need more/better sourcing, ATM I only see it covered by The Daily Cartoonist and We Got This Covered, and the latter is not a RS. 70.163.208.142 (talk) 21:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Intro

It seems to me that the characterization of Adams’s recent remarks as “racist” is debatable, at least if that word is accorded any commonly recognized meaning. I think it is more accurate and encyclopedic to characterize them as “incendiary.” Bobby Lawndale (talk) 19:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

He’s saying most black people hate white people. That’s making derogatory accusations based on race, i.e. racism. Dronebogus (talk) 19:33, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

We have more than adequate Reliable Sources for the description racist. (Also, it's completely obvious.) DanielRigal (talk) 19:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

What he said was that it was okay to be white. That is true not just of whites, but of any race. It is okay, and the racism comes in when somebody claims it is not okay to be green or blue or white or whatever race. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.27.38 (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Bobby Lawndale, while I may disagree with you, it's not unreasonable to have this debate. Racism is a very complex issue and has multiple definitions. It's very important that we write articles objectively, especially when it involves controversial content. And even more so in BLPs. This is an issue about objectivity and subjectivity in our writing. What are the facts (not opinions) and what do reliable sources say? In any case, I think the safest course of action right now is to attribute the characterization to the sources rather than putting it in Misplaced Pages's voice. Therefore, I've made this edit to more accurately reflect the situation. However, it can always be changed back if a meaningful consensus is reached here to do that. Stoarm (talk) 23:06, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Stoarm - thank you for your thoughtful response. I agree with your proposed change and would only note that I think the helping verb “have” is unnecessary. Bobby Lawndale (talk) 13:29, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

@Stoarm: - I'd disagree with that edit. I think the bar for using WP voice in relation to WP:CONTENTIOUS labels is that many mainstream sources use the term without qualification (i.e. as they do here , , ,) and no mainstream sources offer a contradictory account. WP:DUE tells us to relay all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. By qualifying our lanugage with the "most mainstream media" language, we're essentially giving weight to viewpoints from unreliable sources.

It's obviously good to have this debate as it's frought with WP:BLP issues, but we should remember that WP:BLP doesn't say we can't use WP:CONTENTIOUS labels. It just says we have to have really good and unchallenged sourcing if we're going to do that. I think in this case, we can say we have that. NickCT (talk) 13:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.--RM (Be my friend) 14:15, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Ummmmm... Nice words of wisdom. Care to expand? We have verifiable information here. There's got to be a rationale to exclude or qualify it. I don't think Bobby's rationale (i.e. "it's debatable") is really sufficient. NickCT (talk) 14:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I think Girth Summit's edit reads pretty well. 70.163.208.142 (talk) 14:26, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Girth Summit’s edit seems accurate and encyclopedic. Thank you. Bobby Lawndale (talk) 14:36, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Seems better. I still think we could use unqualified language though. NickCT (talk) 14:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Well done, Girth Summit. Also, great input here by everyone. Stoarm (talk) 16:05, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I’ve changed it to “derogatory statements directed at African Americans”, since I think it’s not up for debate that they were derogatory, and directed at black Americans (he clearly says that he thinks most black people are racist, violent towards other races, and ungrateful. That’s pretty unambiguous racism) Dronebogus (talk) 15:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Still confused by what's "up for debate". "up for debate" by whom? Randos on Misplaced Pages? There doesn't seem like there's debate in the RS's. There shouldn't be here. NickCT (talk) 15:55, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Dronebogus: First, it is factually incorrect that his comments were directed at African Americans. As my edit to your changes points out, he specifically used the term "Black people" (multiple times), which of course casts a much wider net. You're mistakenly using the terms interchangably. Second, it is indisputable that reliable sources (not Misplaced Pages) describe his comments as "racist". Racist comments are inherently derogatory, but derogatory statements are not necessarily racist. In any case, the "racist" characterization is overwhelmingly supported by the refs and that fact is accurately reflected by the current wording. Stoarm (talk) 16:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Do the currently cited sources support "widely described as racist", or have we just cited three sources that say "racist"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:57, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Just cited three sources that say "racist". This is why I don't understand why we're not speaking in narrative voice. NickCT (talk) 17:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers: A good and fair question. Originally, it was "widely described as racist" in media coverage. A high percentage of reliable sources covering the story use the term "racist" to characterize the comments. Finding those that do not use the term appear to be the exception to the rule. I've read (and watched) many. It seems to be a clear consensus. Search for yourself and see what you find. How do you (and NickCT) suggest we address your concern? Do we need to include a lengthy list of reliable sources that use the term to describe the comments? Do you have alternate wording you prefer? I think the phrasing provides necessary context. Stoarm (talk) 18:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I don’t know why we’re insisting on using “widely described” when it’s obvious they were just racist, period. Dronebogus (talk) 18:13, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Nobody's insisting on anything. We're having a productive discussion in order to find a good solution. At issue is about whether characterizing the comments as racist should be in Misplaced Pages's voice or attributed to how so many sources are describing them. But I'm confused about something. You have said the comments were obviously racist, yet you have repeatedly removed the word "racist" and replaced it with "derogatory", as you did here and here. I'm also concerned that you invoked "African-Americans", when in fact the term he used was "Black people". You did not address this above. Stoarm (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Black/afro-American was a simple mistake. I’m using “derogatory” because I know “racist” will be a controversy magnet. Dronebogus (talk) 18:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

It will be controversial. And folks familiar with WP:BLP will know that it should be controversial. That said, I only see a couple people arguing against it, and those people tend to be using non-policy based arguments (e.g. "it seems to me like it's debatable"). I think the absence of any policy based rationale against it, we should go ahead and use it. If we really aren't willing to just be bold, we should RfC. NickCT (talk) 19:24, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Dronebogus: I'm sorry, but it was more than a simple mistake. It was false, unsourced content inserted into a BLP. And like NickCT, I'm not concerned about controversy if the wording is appropriate. In any case, I appreciate your response and your objection is understandable. Stoarm (talk) 20:28, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

NickCT: I invited Girth Summit to give his thoughts based on the comments above about his edit. I would feel comfortable with the two of you jointly deciding the best solution. Stoarm (talk) 20:28, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

- Well it looks like someone put the right wording into the current version. Not to open up a can of worms here, but do we have a policy on whether it's "Black people" or "black people"? NickCT (talk) 13:55, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

No policy. A Misplaced Pages proposal to mandate capitalisation of "Black" was rejected, in favour of case-by-case treatment and giving editors leeway to pick what style they prefer (I prefer capitalisation). DFlhb (talk) 14:08, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I guess I don't really care whether it's capitlized or not. But, to paraphrase MJ, it doesn't matter (or shouldn't matter) if you're Black or White. The rule should be consistent. Rules like the AP's seem ludricous. NickCT (talk) 14:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

That matches my view, but the article already seems to reflect this. DFlhb (talk) 14:37, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Responding to a couple things here:

• The "rule" we have is MOS:RACECAPS, which endorses either capitalization or lower casing, as long as it's done consistently.
• I would prefer just "racist" over "widely considered racist". There are MOS:LABEL hardliners that might disagree with using the former, but I don't think we should be framing uncontested facts as opinions. I would be fine with "widely considered" if we rustled up more sources (6-8 or so) and cited them in a bundle.

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:43, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Great policy cite! And great opinion. NickCT (talk) 14:46, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Uh, I cited MOS:RACECAPS once or twice... or five times: here, here, here, here, and (out of breath) here. But for the record, it's not a policy. It's a guideline. Stoarm (talk) 19:21, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Also favour "racist commentary". My usual MOS:LABEL objections would only apply if the term was somehow added in the first sentence to describe him. DFlhb (talk) 15:01, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers, your premise that what he said is an "uncontested fact" is factually incorrect. Read WP:VOICE fully. I will comment in more detail below about this. While I may personally feel the comments were absolutely racist (I'm the one who wrote it that way initially), I fully understand (and so should everyone else) that it's merely an opinion (subjective) and that not everyone agrees, believing instead that the statements were stupid or thoughtless or disgusting, etc., but not racist. Stoarm (talk) 20:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The "right wording" according to whom? Do you mean your preferred wording? That change was made by someone with 100 edits to their name who hasn't said a word in this discussion. What's the point of this discussion if someone with a total of eight edits in the past five years (before this) can just drop in to make a controversial edit, completely ignore this debate, then disappear? Therefore, reverted. Stoarm (talk) 15:14, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Whoa whoa! My preferred wording? How bout mine, DFIhb's, Breon's and Firefangle's? I agree w/ you there should have been discussion, but my sense now is that there consensus for the edit that was made. Isn't that all that matters? As to the 100 edits to their name, would you prefer if I changed it? I have lots of edits. NickCT (talk) 15:38, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

You misunderstood what I said and, in fact, just made my exact point without even realizing it. My objection was to your use of the term "right wording" ("Well it looks like someone put the right wording"), which is why I then asked you if you meant "preferred wording"? Those two terms are obviously not the same thing. Any time someone has a preference, it doesn't necessarily mean it's right. (Everyone thinks their verison is the "right" or "correct" version. I think there's a great essay about it somewhere, which I'm sure you're familiar with.) Please be patient with determining consensus. It's a polarizing issue and has only been discussed here for a couple days. Keep in mind that I was the one who had the phrasing as you essentially want it now. I only rephrased it because of the good-faith, fair objections from others, so that it could be appropriately hashed out. I even told you that I trusted you and Girth to make the final decision jointly. Girth is obviously miles above me in terms of editing skills, experience, and position. I honestly do not care about Breon's opinion since, with only a hundred edits and only a few of them in the past five years, he brazenly made that controversial edit without even having the decency and common sense to participate in this discussion. I don't know if Girth will choose to provide any input, though. Stoarm (talk) 17:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

re Everyone thinks their verison is the "right" or "correct" version. - Yes. Obviously. So why insist on people using "prefered" versus "right" when those things are almost always interchangable? If you thought your prefered wording was wrong, you probably wouldn't prefer it.

re fair objections - I still have seen no policy based rationale for the wording you selected as a comprimise. Have you? Can you state it concisely? "It seems to me debatable" is not a policy based rationale.

We don't need to wait for Girth. This is a hot topic, so there's a rationale for us to make changes quickly. We've got consensus. Unless I hear policy based objections in the next few hours, I'll make the change. NickCT (talk) 19:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

You still don't get it. They are clearly not interchangable. Maybe someone else can explain it to you. In any case, relax and be patient. Again, it's only been a couple days. The current prose is fully accurate and objective as it stands. The house isn't on fire. See below regarding WP:VOICE, which is a vital policy. Stoarm (talk) 21:03, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I would vote for "black" and "white" throughout the article. YouCanDoBetter (talk) 20:20, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Seems like a simple decision, right? Almost black and white wouldn't you say? Or Black and White maybe? ugh oh.... NickCT (talk) 20:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Please, let's take closer look at WP:VOICE and really focus on what it's saying. In particular, everyone must open their minds and listen to what "Avoid stating opinions as facts" tells us. This clearly applies to this debate about how the comments by Adams should be characterized in the article. The guidance is unequivocal, telling us that "opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, "an article should not state that 'genocide is an evil action" (bolding added) but may state that 'genocide has been described by John So-and-so as the epitome of human evil.'" Read that last sentence again and really take it in, and read the lead of that article, which says, "Genocide, especially large-scale genocide, is widely considered to signify the epitome of human evil." (bolding added). If we cannot characterize in Misplaced Pages's voice that genocide is an evil action (even though most or all editors here would likely say that it absolutely is), then we most certainly should not characterize in Misplaced Pages's voice that Adams's comments were racist, even though there's wide belief by editors here that they were. Why? Because we're writing an encylopedia and it doesn't matter how we personally feel about it or how we would characterize it. We all fully know the difference between objective and subjective information. There should be no question, regardless of how horrific Adams's comments may have been, that it's subjective to call them racist. But we can most certainly say, and should say, that they've been widely reported, or widely described, as racist, because we have verifiable evidence (all the available reliable sources) to support it. There are plenty of people who believe the comments were not racist (because of the common definitions of racism) and so instead choose to desribe them in other terms, such as controversial, polarizing, provocative, stupid, wreckless, insensitive, etc. And of course the OP here said they should not be characterized as racist, but instead as "incendiary". Would I characterize the comments as racist. Yes, absolutely. In fact, I already did when I edited the article previously. But I changed it to attribute the characterization to what was overwhelmingly being reported by reliable sources. So, is genocide evil? Yes? Can we say that in Wikiedpia's voice? No. Stoarm (talk) 20:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC) 15:26, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

“Racist” is not an opinion like “evil”, even if it’s frequently just used as a generic insult like “fascist” is. It’s prejudice or discrimination based on race. Adams made comments that said most black people had negative traits xyz, which is explicitly, objectively racist. And I’m going to hazard that most of those uncited “plenty of people” are far-rightists who want to twist words to whatever works for them. Dronebogus (talk) 16:58, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Wait, so you think that "racist" is not an opinion, but that "evil" is? With all due respect, do you really not understand how non-sensical that sounds (not you, but your argument)? You're showing a very basic misunderstanding of the difference between facts and opinions. Obviously, describing someone or something as "racist" is an opinion. The definition you casually inserted into your comment ("It’s prejudice or discrimination based on race") is merely your definition (I don't see a source). Merriam-Webster's definition of "racist" is "having, reflecting, or fostering the belief that race (see race entry 1 sense 1a) is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" or "of, relating to, or characterized by the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another". Cambridge says it's "someone who believes that their race makes them better, more intelligent, more moral, etc. than people of other races and who does or says unfair or harmful things as a result". Those definitions, which are common, cannot necessarily be applied to Adams. Do you know what his beliefs are, or do you just know what his words were in that video? Again, my personal opinion is that his comments were clearly racist. But my belief doesn't matter one bit, and although in the minority, many people disagree with me (and you and others here). Have you read some of the many message boards and blogs discussing this particular point. What actually is an indisputable fact is that many reliable sources describe his comments as racist. So that's why, per the policy I presented above, we should say that, and not put it in Misplaced Pages's voice. It's not for an encyclopedia to make that conclusion and state is as fact, but rather to cite who is saying it (reliable sources). I believe this is perfectly in line with the WP:NPOV policy and its subsection WP:VOICE. Remember, I initially edited the article to say that his comments were racist, in Misplaced Pages's voice. Then I heard objections and looked into more. I was hesitant to change it. But I read the WP:VOICE policy very carefully. If there are edtiors with a long, reputable history here who've demonstrably dealt with this particular issue in the past, I welcome them to join this discussion and honestly critique my viewpoint on this. I'm focusing on policy and caution. Stoarm (talk) 17:37, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

After briefly communicating with Doug Weller today and learning of his life situation, I've decided to drop out of this discussion. Learning about what's going on with him and reading all the beautiful comments on his talk page from people who obviously love and respect him has hit me hard. It's really put this issue we're debating here into perspective. I know the intention of everyone here is to do what's best for this project. Good luck. Stoarm (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, our thoughts and best wishes go out to Doug. Since we've waited and there doesn't seem to be any further objection, I'm going to make the change. NickCT (talk) 13:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that cannot happen since you have not at all countered, or even addressed, the lengthy policy evidence presented to justify your desired change. As detailed above, WP:NPOV and its specifically relevant subesection WP:VOICE are vital policy, particularly with regard to biographies of living persons, that must be respected. The policy is unequivocal in explaining how to present this particular type of controversial content. Equally important, WP:CONSENSUS reminds us that "Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines.", and that "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale." (emphasis added). Of course, all of this is prefaced by the indisputable understanding that consensus is not "the result of a vote", but rather the "quality of the arguments" in line with established policies and guidelines. The good thing is that your objection is very specific: you want Misplaced Pages to say, in its own voice, that Adam's controversial comments were racist, rather than attributing that characterization to those who are saying it. The policy tells us directly that "these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views" (emphasis added). That's precisely what we're doing currently. Therefore, I'm not sure why you're continuing to fight so hard to get the encylopedia itself to call his comments "racist", in violation of NPOV, and eliminating the well-sourced attribution. Our job isn't to shove a point of view down the throats of our readers, but rather to neutrally present the verified information, via the reliable sources, and let them decide for themselves how they would describe it. Stoarm (talk) 19:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I think it can happen actually. You are at present the only person pushing your position in opposition to several editors. This is despite the fact that you 1) said you're dropping from the conversation (apparently not true) and 2) said that the position wasn't really yours to begin with (I think it's pretty clear that it now is).

re WP:VOICE - We make unqualified subjective statements on WP all the time. If I wrote "The Mona Lisa is an important work of art", that's an opinion, right? There's no objective measure of importance. And yet, we can write that b/c lots of sources say it's true, and no sources counter it. If we had to write "According to many sources, the Mona Lisa is...." all the time, WP would just sound dumb.

We're not shoving our POV down readers' throats. We're shoving the view of the overwhelming number of reliable sources. Trying to qualify the viewpoint of mainstream sources is basically supporting WP:FRINGE.

This is a gentle reminder that you don't WP:OWN this article and shouldn't revert changes made by multiple editors.

And if you want people to read, avoid walls of text. NickCT (talk) 03:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you haven't overcome the key issue: what the policy says. It is demonstrably false that I'm the only one in favor of of attributing the characterization to the sources. As anyone can see above, Girth Summit took the exact same position with this edit ("Dilbert was dropped from numerous newspapers after Adams published a video including comments that were widely described as racist") and there are replies from multiple editors in support of it, including your partial support ("Yes. Seems better. I still think we could use unqualified language though."). So, that's Girth Summit, Bobby Lawndale, 70.163.208.142, Stoarm, and, in-part, NickCT. Therefore, your claim that I'm the "only person" taking this view is simply false. My deciding to re-enter the discussion is obviously a red herring that has nothing to do with the content dispute, and it is of course my right. In terms of changing my position, of course I changed it. Because I kept an open mind to the objections of others and therefore researched and reconsidered the approach in order to protect the article's credibility. So, what's your point? That editors should never change their minds about an editing decision, even when presented with information that clearly justifies, and necessitates, the change? The "other stuff" bells ring every time an editor says, we do such and such "all the time". With regard to the Mona Lisa (which I've seen in person; it's inspriring), its status in the art world has been verifiably studied and documented by experts in the field over many years. And you'll note that the article says " it has been "described as...", rather than "it is...". With Scott Adam's comments, no one can read his mind to know what he was thinking or intended when he made those statements. And unlike da Vinci's work, there are indeed sources that counter the "racist" claim about what Adams said, contending that it was obviously "hyperbole" or "exaggeration" used solely to make an important point. You and I may think that's nonsense, but it doesn't matter what any editors think or feel. What matters is the policy. It's simple and clear: "these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views" (emphasis added). The policy also is abundantly clear that assertions that are contested or controversial – which these obviously are – cannot be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. You said, "We're not shoving our POV down readers' throats. We're shoving the view of the overwhelming number of reliable sources." Did you even read those words before you clicked "Publish changes"? You actually admitted that "shoving the view" down the throats of our readers is what you want to do. In all seriousness, you should not be editing BLPs if that's something you actually believe is appropriate. Invoking OWN is another red herring and distracts from the issue at hand. BLPs have strict standards and core policies that cannot simply be ignored. But that is precisely what you are doing. When Girth Summit made the original edit, he no doubt understood and adhered to the core policy when he chose to use wording which gave attribution to the sources. Girth is a very experienced, accomplished, and knowledgeable editor and administrator. Finally, if you consider responses of a paragraph or two to be "walls of text", there's not much I can do for you. Perhaps you're not a fan of reading books, magazines, and newspapers. And, of course, the responses are to your laundry list of various points. Stoarm (talk) 17:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

I reverted Stoarm's edit. Time to stop edit warring, Stoarm, and it's also time to stop with the personal attacks: "Perhaps you're not a fan of reading books, magazines, and newspapers." Come on now. I'll add that in my opinion NickCT is a very experienced, accomplished, and knowledgeable editor also (even though they're utterly wrong about Black/black!). Drmies (talk) 17:29, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

You did not explain why you feel you're justified in disregarding a core policy, disagree with Girth Summit's edit, or did not in any way address the merits of the arguments. Also, I'd say it's a bit dramatic – and, by definition, incorrect – to characterize a very mild poke about reading materials as a personal attack; it was no more a personal attack than his criticism of my "walls of text", and less inappropriate than your rude edit summary. In any case, my primary concern is being careful about how we present controversial content in a BLP. Stoarm (talk) 18:52, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

@Stoarm: - I'm not hating on ya bud and I think you're asking an important question (i.e. the WP:BLP and WP:VOICE concerns are legitimate), but I've gotta point out that I ended my comment with "avoid walls of text", and then you responded with a wall-of-text. I do enjoying reading books, magazines, etc. The difference between those and your responses is that the books/magazines I read are typically well-written, insightful, and make sense.

Regardless, if you really want to push on this, I suggest we just RfC. I'd be happy draft one or help you draft one. NickCT (talk) 14:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

First, do not call me "bud". Frankly, it doesn't matter how long you prefer my, or any editor's, comments to be. I'll write as much as I think is necessary to reply to what's written to me. If you make X number of points, I will give X number of responses. When we're dealing with controversial content in a BLP, the explanations should be more detailed. Let's see if Drmies will make the same type of comment to you that he did to me about your "personal attack" ("the difference between those and your responses is that the books/magazines I read are typically well-written, insightful, and make sense"). Of course it's an important question that's being debated; we're talking about core policy. Yet you and Drmies – who gave zero reasoning for the revert beyond "I disagree" – apparently think it's acceptable to disregard those policies. If you're serious about doing the right thing, then start an RfC and simply ask if the "racist" statement should be in Misplaced Pages's voice or not; let's see how other editors interpret WP:VOICE and WP:BLP. Stoarm (talk) 17:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I retract my "personal attack". I hope you understand though, people will engage with you more if you avoid the walls-of-text. Saying we gave "zero reasoning" seems a bit like WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.

This is now the third time you've lectured me about the length of my comments. You made the point and I addressed it, so hopefully you can move on. Please focus on content, a vital part of our dispute resolution policy. Read what I wrote again; I said that Drmies was the one who gave zero reasoning (for the revert), not you. Stoarm (talk) 19:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Look..... I really don't mean to lecture you, but your statement was "you and Drmies – who gave zero reasoning". Grammar would suggest the statement applied to both of us. Plus you've awkwardly replied halfway through my comment. Walls-of-text, poor grammar, and awkward splitting don't aid in clarity. I'm just trying to help you provide clearer and more concise arguments. As I said earlier, I do think you have valid point worth stating. NickCT (talk) 21:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I'll work up an RfC within the next 24hr. NickCT (talk) 18:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

@Stoarm and Drmies: - Hi guys - Wanted to give you and oppurtunity to review this RfC before launching. NickCT (talk) 14:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Rather than continuing to violate WP:BRD by restoring the bold edit that was reverted (multiple times), start the RfC and get consensus for your desired change. Provided the RfC is conducted properly, I will accept whatever result is reached. Stoarm (talk) 17:02, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Some requests for the "Views" section

For one statement, an editor changed the source from The Mercury News to Adams's original tweet. I understand the reasoning, but Adams has tweeted a lot of things; what makes that particular tweet notable is its coverage in independent sources. Either remove the sentence or source it back to a third-party.

Also, the UPN show cancellation is mentioned twice, under "Full-time cartoonist" and "Views on race", and while that's perfectly acceptable, if I could edit I'd delete the first instance and move its ref over to bolster the second instance. What should match are the dates, both should be June 28. 70.163.208.142 (talk) 15:56, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

First issue has been addressed. 70.163.208.142 (talk) 05:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

ADL is not a Neutral organization

That poll

The Poll That Did in Dilbert Creator Scott Adams Is Even Dumber Than You Can Imagine Doug Weller talk 19:22, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Here is a more in-depth explainer on It's okay to be white in relation to this controversy, which might be worth using as a source. Many sources just briefly cite the ADL to provide context, but this goes into much more detail. --Aquillion (talk) 05:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

At the same time, it's sad that so much neutral language has been taken up as slogans by controversial movements that even some innocent words have become taboo. Vacosea (talk) 06:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Taboo according to whom? It is okay to be white ... we can argue about what that means, in theory and in practice -- and you can point to odious individuals of every race and color and every political hue -- I don't see the point here about it being 'taboo' -- but that's your opinion Fishing Publication (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't oppose including this information in the article -- but it seems unlikely to me that the average Joe is familiar with this piece of Internet history -- or enough to influence poll responses, etc.

Also, the ADL describes the origin of the phrase as "an alt-right trolling campaign" if I'm not mistaken. What is the difference between a 'trolling campaign' and political activism ? Fishing Publication (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I suggest you read this article and It's okay to be white, along with their relevant reliable sources, so that you will understand the difference between fact and opinion with regard to this issue. Stoarm (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand, does that mean you still disagree with my revisions? I've read the article, we're talking about a specific sentence of prose from the article. Haven't we discussed the difference between fact and opinion re: 'seemingly innocuous' ? Fishing Publication (talk) 02:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Stoarm, Black Kite:

Since you continue to revert my revision without providing any justification (other than that you have reverted it in the past), and you (Stoarm) have haughtily instructed me 'you are to take it to the talk page' (notwithstanding my relevant comments on several talk pages which you have still failed to address), please explain (as I have requested now for many days and nights) any sustained objection you may have to my proposed wording. I have also addressed the involved administrator to serve as a third opinion. I must say that quite aside from my obvious and deserved (on your part) respect for your contributions to Misplaced Pages and good record which far outlasts mine that I can only regard your conduct in this matter as unwelcoming and the degree of your previous rebuke quite unnecessary.

Regardless with thanks and appreciation for your continued work, Fishing Publication (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The content is accurate, reliably sourced, properly attributed, and provides necessary context. Dozens of editors have contributed to that paragraph and none, until you, objected to that particular portion which had stood for weeks. Your recent changes were quickly reverted by multiple editors, with edit summaries provided, yet, as Black Kite pointed out, you chose to repeatedly edit war and restore content instead of going to the talk page and achieving consensus. Your one argument that "this revision stood for multiple days" isn't helpful to your effort because it actually makes the point that it stood only for a short time, which, for accuracy, was just a day and a half. Stoarm (talk) 15:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Again you are only talking about how the quote is factual, i.e. the ADL actually issued this statement (and you're still throwing around buzzwords like 'accurate' and 'reliably sourced' -- yes indeed, the article uses a primary source to provide evidence for a quotation). I don't dispute any of this, and indeed I have never argued that the quotation should be removed, only that needlessly biased and editorialized prose on the part of Misplaced Pages (that does not even come from the ADL's statement) should be altered.

To your point none, until you, objected to that particular portion, actually two editors in the past objected to the quotation albeit on different grounds (Talk:Scott Adams#ADL is not a Neutral organization, Talk:Scott Adams#Intro); shouldn't you know this, as you have participated in one of these discussions ?

You are the one who immediately resorted to edit warring after failing to continue a discussion you started on the subject. How can you accuse me of 'choosing to repeatedly edit war' when I responded to your comment on Discospinster dealing with your points of disagreement and advising you to respond if you had any further disagreement -- and if not I would restore my revision with your alterations as discussed? You did not acknowledge this comment (and have yet to); I waited two full days before proceeding to restore my revision, whereupon you reverted one hour later. Since you had been editing in the intervening period, and since I had linked your user page 'pinging' you to alert you to the continued discussion, I should like to ask what motivated your absence from the discussion page and seeming unconcernedness with progress towards a consensus-based resolution of our disagreement? Such behavior, no matter its motivation, has compelled me to reiterate myself multiple times and at exponentially increasing length. And if we are to be counting grievances, I should note that on the User talk:Discospinster page, in what seems now in retrospect to constitute the opening volley of the late unpleasantness between us, without any provocation by similar behavior on my part, you made deeply uncharitable and insulting personal accusations about me: Unfortunately, Fishing Publication is using their apparent personal biases to infect the article

I hope that you will understand now -- as I stated in the first paragraph -- that I am not seeking to remove any content, nor do I have any disagreement with you on the merit of the ADL's quotation (which you continue to reverently describe as 'properly attributed', 'provides necessary context', 'reliably sourced') -- and because my point of disagreement with you purely concerns the wording or prose you are left with a certain number of options and not one of these is to continue insisting upon the veracity of content, as you have in all of your previous comments on this matter, the inclusion of which I have never challenged.

Should you not now either: 1) adopt the position that such verbiage as 'seemingly innocuous' is not un-encyclopedic, and does not make any presuppositions or apply any kind of impetus or emotional peer-pressure on the reader -- presumably you could here argue about the precise meaning of such relevant policies as WP:NPOV or WP:MOS#FLOWERY or 2) adopt the position that some parts of the wording are not acceptable, and that some parts remain acceptable, and proceed to argue about which parts (specific words? phonemes?) fall into each category, or finally 3) adopt at long last my position that the wording as it (alas!) now stands is indeed unacceptable as POV, but should be replaced or altered in a different way than I have proposed.

Of course, if you carve a middle path I will not fault you for you have already proven your logical and rhetorical inventiveness of much greater scope and depth than my own.

I hope that you will read and understand my comments and that this will help us to mutual understanding. Respectfully, Fishing Publication (talk) 17:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Newsweek Opinion on Context for Racist Comments

A Newsweek opinion piece suggests that most sources have missed the context of the racist "hate group" comments. Pakbelang (talk) 21:23, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Modern newsweek is a crap source with no respectability. Dronebogus (talk) 05:05, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Pakbelang, please see WP:NEWSWEEK and this RfC regarding the use of post–2013 Newsweek. Stoarm (talk) 07:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. The article now has reliable sources for the key points. Pakbelang (talk) 15:01, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit requests

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In the Personal Life section, please add that he is a vegetarian. https://www.impactlab.com/2006/03/31/interview-with-dilbert-creator-scott-adams/ 2600:100C:A206:F6CD:3021:AA51:E238:D22A (talk) 23:12, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

 Done Actualcpscm (talk) 23:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Disappearance of websites

On the 13th of March, according to the Wayback Machine, dilbert.com and scottadamssays.com were set to redirect to his Linktree page, which in turn links to the Coffee With Scott Adams "Locals" website, the Real Coffee with Scott Adams YouTube channel, and his Twitter profile. This change was sudden, as dilbert.com was still being updated with new comics.

I don't believe the timing of that is coincidental, as his Twitter bio announces that "Dilbert Reborn" is launching 13 March, which requires a subscription to access. He describes Dilbert Reborn as being "spicier than the original" but I don't really know anything more about it.

How should we handle this? I think the "Website" section of the infobox needs updating in some way. That's probably all that needs doing, as the page already mentions Dilbert Reborn, albeit not in any detail. Here for the one billionth edit (talk) 20:06, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

For one thing, update url-status=dead for the several cites to his blog, or just stick to secondary sources. 70.163.208.142 (talk) 00:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, updated.

I've noticed the Dilbert page's "Website" field has been amended to "dilbert.com, now redirects to Scott Adams Linktree", presumably to do with this Talk post where Fishing Publication mentions Linktree being blacklisted from being inserted into Misplaced Pages pages. I'll sleep on the idea of doing something similar here. Here for the one billionth edit (talk) 01:24, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring

@Stoarm and Fishing Publication:, stop the edit warring now. Fishing Publication, if you really feel this is an improvement start an RFC, as there's clearly no consensus right now. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:02, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

RfC : Use "racist" in Misplaced Pages's voice?

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There's been a debate about how to describe recent contraversial remarks about race from cartoonist Scott Adams. The debate centers around whether his comments should be described as "racist" in a narrative/Wikipedia voice, or whether the adjective should be attributed.

Should the desription in lead read as either;

Option A : "...after Adams published a video which included racist comments about Black people."

or

Option B : "...after Adams published a video which included comments about Black people that were widely characterized as racist."

Please tell us what you think below! If you could format your response in the following way, it would be helpful.

• Support Option A - This option is great Unqualified123 (talk) 13:01, 25 September 2050 (UTC)
• Support Option B - I love qualifying stuff. QualifyIt (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2050 (UTC)
• Support Alternative - Why not say that Dilbert was a hater? ThinkOutsideTheBox (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2050 (UTC)

Thanks in advance for your input.

Threaded discussion

• Support Option A - We have to be extremely careful w/ WP:CONTENTIOUS labels especially as they relate to WP:BLPs. The only appropriate time to use them in an unqualified way (i.e. a Misplaced Pages voice way) is when they are used in unqualified way in a wide array of RS's, and there are no RS's that dispute or contradict the accuracy of the labels. That's the case here. Dozens of outlets described his words as "racist", and no source offered a counterpoint. It would be WP:UNDUE for us to qualify the wording, when qualification is not present in RS. NickCT (talk) 03:07, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

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