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To-do list for Animation: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2018-12-11 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Expand : Describe other 3D animation techniques such as morph target animation

Modify Spelling Errors and added a picture

Hello Everyone,

I modified a few spelling errors in the history section of the article and added a picture that is, public domain, of Betty Boop next to the Full animation paragraph. If I have made a mistake let me know and I will fix it. If I don't fix it myself, feel free to fix it yourself.

Wiki Education assignment: Technical Editing

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 10 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nutellatoastt (article contribs).

Ssmt

123 223.188.250.55 (talk) 13:26, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Equitable Futures - Internet Cultures and Open Access

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jelotan (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Adelehink.

— Assignment last updated by WikiEdit7205 (talk) 18:56, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Before cinematography

(Hundreds of years before the introduction of true animation, people all over the world enjoyed shows with moving figures that were created and manipulated manually in puppetry, automata, shadow play, and the magic lantern)

This above text is mentioned in the animation history section of the article. which refers to shadow play and puppet show as an initial attempt to make animation. In fact, the authors do not mean the shadow play as an animation, but only refer to the initial actions. The paintings found on the cup that burned in the city are not animations. We are talking about 5000 years ago. But these drawings are the first step to make animation. If I am not mistaken, five images of a goat are drawn in different positions, when we rotate the cup 360 degrees, we can see the movement of this goat. The same idea was used in the creation of the first real animations, such as Snow White and Seven Dwarfs, and this work was created. I hope that in this article you will allow us not to call it the first real animation, but the first attempt at animation or the first idea for making animation.

Coolcaesar (talk) & Janke (talk)

I must say that Oxford University researchers have done this before us and it is useful to follow them in this field

Mitrayasna (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

"the first attempt at animation or the first idea for making animation." - it is neither. The entire concept of animation did not exist before the technical methods were available (flip books, slotted discs etc.) Before that, no artist could actually see the creation in motion. Consider the very first sentence in the article: Animation is a method by which still figures are manipulated to appear as moving images. Neither cave paintings nor cups could make images move. The "animated" image of the jumping goat requires technology (not existing when the cup was made), thus it is a falsification of facts. Janke | Talk 16:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Finally what you are saying is that we can't see the motion, you are somewhat correct, you have to move the cup 360 degrees to feel the motion. With all the reasons you give, you cannot deny that the set of 5 images on this clay cup is the first attempt to show movement, and showing movement is equivalent to animation.

As the first part of the article says : “Animation is a method by which still figures are manipulated to appear as moving images”

In this part of the article, we are not only talking about the animation that we know today. Why shouldn't this part of the article mention the human effort to show the movement of a goat? What they started 5000 years ago made us have animation today. In fact, humans invented animation a few centuries ago to show movement for the same purpose that humans had 5000 years ago. I don't have much experience with wikipedia, but as far as I know, it shouldn't be used with taste. Items that have valid sources cannot be deleted. You can take a look at this source, I'm sure your opinion will change, it clearly talks about animation.

The title of this section is before filming, in fact, this section does not talk about real animations at all Mitrayasna (talk) 04:40, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I put in the link to the main article Early history of animation that covers this and many other examples of possible early steps towards animation. The history section on the Animation page is probably too long as it is, and could do better with trimming instead of stuffing.

I personally have strong doubts whether the depictions of the goat were supposed to express motion. If animated, the trees move much more (in a very messy random way), while the goat changes more in shape and size instead of following a clear path. When some website first promoted this as a "very first animation" they used a gif in which they had the goat cut out and hop up in about 9 frames, while one tree was kept in place.

The Khnumhotep tomb wrestlers form a much better example, but I don't think there is anything else like that in the whole of art history before the 19th century. Most of the many suggested examples of earlier sequential art don't suggest more than the passing of time between two images. If you carefully study the remaining few that supposedly depict motion and judge them without that autosuggested notion, you may want to conclude that in most cases the artists may have had something else in mind (relevant exceptions are Carlo Urbino's studies of the motion of the body and Christiaan Huygens' sketches of plates for the magic lantern). Joortje1 (talk) 07:15, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

There are dozens of images in this article, it wouldn't hurt to add another image to the article. We can add a summary of the early history of animation article in just one image and very short text. Mitrayasna (talk) 09:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

What you are proposing is to use Misplaced Pages as a first publisher of original research. That's a clear violation of core policies WP:NOR, WP:NOT, and WP:V. You need to find a reliable published source in compliance with WP:RS that expressly makes your novel point. Until then, the image and that material needs to stay out of the article. Also, it sounds like you don't fully understand what is animation. Try attending D23 Expo. I've done it three times, to watch some of the world's top animators speak about their work in person.

WP core policies can be extremely frustrating, but they have been debated dozens of times by the WP community and the consensus has always been to keep. It just means you have to be on the lookout for such sources every time you visit a proper university research library. For example, I was curious about the history of the MUTCD for a long time, and then I finally dug up a history of AASHTO at the library and added citations to that book to the MUTCD article. --Coolcaesar (talk) 15:11, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand what you are saying. You added the same photo in the other article you mentioned above. How come there was no problem to add this fact in other wikipedia articles but there is a problem in this article and it is against wikipedia rules?

What photo and what fact are you talking about? The only photos I added to the D23 article are two photos of the D23 Expo entrance (in 2015 and 2022), which have nothing to do with your image. Your statement makes no sense at all. Did you read the core policies I just cited? --Coolcaesar (talk) 10:25, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Dozens of articles have been written about this, so this fact is not an original research.

Your behavior seems to be extremely inconsistent and you have no logical reason for what you are saying, you just don't want this fact to be written in the article. Mitrayasna (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

You cited an article from an electronic journal from a small Swiss publisher behind a firewall which is so obscure that OCLC's WorldCat reveals that only 22 libraries in the entire world list that journal in their library catalogs. Only six of them are in the United States.

Also, you haven't attempted to quote verbatim from that article, which is kind of suspicious. For example, I quote verbatim all the time from sources when I cite them on Misplaced Pages because I only add citations to sources which actually say what I'm citing them for.

Again, please read the Misplaced Pages core policies I cited above. They're really not that hard to understand. If you are unable to conform your edits to those policies, your edits will be treated as disruptive and reverted accordingly. --Coolcaesar (talk) 10:25, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

I have already met exactly the criteria you just mentioned

The second source was just to refute your false claim that this fact is the original research.

“Many sources refer to this cup and the images on it as the first animation in history for example : An animated piece on an earthen goblet that belongs to 5000 years ago! was found in Burnt City in sistan-Baluchistan province, south-eastern iran. on this ancient piece that can be called the first animation of the world, the artist has portrayed a goat that jumps toward a tree and eats its leaves.... On this goblet, with a diameter of 8 cm and height of 10 cm. the images show movement in an intricate way that is an unprecedented discovery. Some earthenware found in Burnt City show repetitive images, but none of them implicate any movements” Mitrayasna (talk) 12:58, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

• You say: "when it is spun, the gazelle appears to leap" - that is NOT true, if you spin the cup, you only see a blur. Try it yourself: put a strip of paper with the drawings around any cup and spin it, you won't see the goat jump, you will only see the drawings move sidewise. --Janke | Talk 07:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

  Your and my personal opinions are not important in this matter. According to Misplaced Pages's rules, we must cite authoritative sources, and various sources from Oxford University and others I have mentioned above clearly state that the images on this goblet are the world's first animation. Mitrayasna (talk) 08:41, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I reverted your edit. You refer to a Oxford University source, but it is behind a paywall, i.e. not accessible. The bowl is mentioned in the early history article, thus not needed here - and, saying that you see the goat jump when you spin the bowl is a falsification of fact. --Janke | Talk 13:02, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it used to show page 6 of the book automatically. Now you have to find that page manually

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Animation_A_World_History/G63MCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Burnt%20city%20animation&pg=PA7&printsec=frontcover Mitrayasna (talk) 11:39, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you read the second paragraph on that page: "To what we now call animation, they have no cause-and-effect connection. They are purely anecdotic and thus useless to our historical discourse"... and then cites the cup as an anecdote example. So, the author says exactly the opposite of what you're saying. Please don't misconstrue references! --Janke | Talk 17:59, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Fully concur with User:Janke. User:Mitrayasna is reading a quote out of context. Please do not misconstrue references. Please read up on how to do proper close reading of a text. It's not that hard. --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Giannalberto Bendazzi

@SilverLocust hi I must thank you for your good faith.

However, your understanding of Mr. Giannalberto Bendazzi's book is wrong.He says this in his book about the burnt city cup “Many sources refer to this cup and the images on it as the first animation in history for example : An animated piece on an earthen goblet that belongs to 5000 years ago! was found in Burnt City in sistan-Baluchistan province, south-eastern iran. on this ancient piece that can be called the first animation of the world, the artist has portrayed a goat that jumps toward a tree and eats its leaves.... On this goblet, with a diameter of 8 cm and height of 10 cm. the images show movement in an intricate way that is an unprecedented discovery. Some earthenware found in Burnt City show repetitive images, but none of them implicate any movements”

I think the text you added is about other works of art found in this ancient city. I hope you will take another look at this book and comment again. Thank you Mitrayasna (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2023 (UTC) Mitrayasna Mitrayasna (talk) 16:34, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence of (what you present as) your quotation is not in the book ("Many sources refer to this cup and the images on it as the first animation in history for example :"). The remainder is a news article that Bendazzi is quoting, but not agreeing with. Janke (17:59, 20 April 2023) and Coolcaesar (16:51, 21 April 2023) noted this above. This is what the book says:

A forerunner is just a forerunner. He doesn't – nor does he care to – predict what posterity, with hindsight, will call him.
   Most of the actions, productions, and inventions that took place before the nineteenth century and look like something we now call animation were produced by forerunners. To what we now call animation, they have no cause-and-effect connection. They are purely anecdotic and thus useless to our historical discourse.
   For the sake of completeness, we will look for a few examples from history.
On 30 December 2004, and article called 'First Animation of the World Found in Burnt City, Iran' was published.
   This is the text:

An animated piece on an earthen goblet that belongs to 5000 years ago was found in Burnt City in Sistan-Baluchistan province, south-eastern Iran.
   On this ancient piece that can be called the first animation of the world, the artist has portrayed a goat that jumps toward a tree and eats its leaves. . . . On this goblet, with a diameter of 8 cm and height of 10 cm, the images show movement in an intricate way that is an unprecedented discovery. Some earthenware found in Burnt City show repetitive images, but none of them implicate any movements.

SilverLocust (talk) 18:10, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

1. Foltz, Richard C. (2016). Iran in World History. Oxford University Press. p. 6. ISBN 9780199335503.
2. https://www.inderscienceonline.com/doi/abs/10.1504/IJART.2017.084937
3. Foltz, Richard C. (2016). Iran in World History. Oxford University Press. p. 6. ISBN 9780199335503.
4. G Bendazzi (2015). Animation: A World History. p. 7.
5. G Bendazzi (2015). Animation: A World History. p. 7.

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