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Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines for the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. The final decision was as follows: Neutral point of view as applied to science: Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more justification. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

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Non-sciences

As a scientist, I think it's important to call out practices that claim to be scientific but lack the evidence to back that claim. However, the lede gives me at least the impression that the world binary i.e. divided into science and pseudoscience. There is a small section on boundaries with other disciplines – the non-sciences – and I wonder if that should be summarised clearly in the lede. Bermicourt (talk) 18:06, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I believe the lead is long enough, and complies with WP:LEAD. I dont think that the boundaries section merits summarising in the lead, though others may differ. - Roxy the dog 18:12, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

My reading of the lead didn't give me the impression of a binary world of science and pseudoscience. Religion is not mentioned, but (other than creationism) religions don't generally purport to be science. If you can suggest a sentence you'd like to add that would be more helpful...then we'd know what to discuss. ---Avatar317 23:17, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Does anybody want to start the stub for medbed?

Does anybody want to start the stub for medbed?

Strange corners of the internet are awash with chatter about miracle devices that can cure nearly any ailment you can think of using the power of mystical energy. Some companies charge thousands for these "medbeds" - but their claims are far from proven.

...

The idea of medbeds - short either for "medical beds" or "meditation beds" - has become increasingly popular on fringe medical channels, on mainstream social networks and chat apps.

But people have very different ideas about what they actually are. Some insist that the technology is secret, unlikely to be encountered by mere mortals, hidden from the public by billionaires and the "deep state". The more conspiratorial theorising includes speculation about "alien technology" and bizarre claims like the idea that John F Kennedy is still alive, strapped to a medbed.

A separate, more earthly avenue of thought holds that medbeds are very real and publicly available, just not part of the medical mainstream.

Etc.

BBC News - https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-64070190

- 189.122.243.241 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I've had a go. Now let me return to my slumber. Zzz. No Swan So Fine (talk) 21:59, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Definition in first sentence

The current definition in the first sentence states pseudoscience needs to claim to be scientific. This would mean that works or theories not claiming to be scientific or even claiming to be an alternative to science, are not pseudoscience.

Various definitions do not include this need for a claim to be scientific:

• "a system of thought or a theory that is not formed in a scientific way." Cambridge Dictionary
• "a discipline or approach that pretends to be or has a close resemblance to science." Collins Dictionary
• "any of various methods, theories, or systems, as astrology, psychokinesis, or clairvoyance, considered as having no scientific basis." Dictionary.com

The main issue with the current narrower definition is an internal conflict which may mislead readers: For instance, the works of Erich von Däniken are called pseudoscience in the wiki article, which links to pseudoscience, which implies Däniken claims his works to be scientific, which isn't the case. Hypnôs (talk) 14:02, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

There is no need of, and no rule for, Misplaced Pages articles to be consistent with each other. Each article is based on its own sources. If the sources for Erich von Däniken contradict the sources for this article, there is no problem. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

There is no need or rule to keep them inconsistent either. Since broader definitions exist and are used by RS, I don't see the downside of more consistency. Hypnôs (talk) 15:08, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

If you have source-based reasons for not calling Däniken a pseudoscientist, bring them (not here, of course). If you have source-based reasons for omitting the "claim to be scientific" condition, bring them. Unless one of those things happens, it needs to stay as it is. Consistency is simply not an issue. Misplaced Pages is based on sources, not on your ideas of consistency. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

As stated above, definitions in reliable sources omit the "claim to be scientific" condition. The consistency is merely a positive side effect.

Däniken is a pseudoscientist according to the broader definitions. But according to the one used in the first sentence, he is not, since he doesn't claim his works to be scientific. Hypnôs (talk) 15:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The article uses sources that include that condition. So, you are demanding that we sweep those sources under the rug and only use sources containing your preferred definition?

Fact is that there is no consensus about the definition. The article states that it is like this. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm suggesting a change based on RS. There's no need for your assumptions of bad faith.

The point of using a broader definition is that is applies to a wider range of cases that RS call pseudoscience, like Däniken.

A narrower definition can still be used in the article for cases it applies to. Hypnôs (talk) 16:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I do not understand what exactly you want. Does the article "apply" the definition? Maybe you should simply say what you want to change into what. Your last change to the article - reverted here - deleted the "claim to be scientific" condition, replacing one definition by another, so my assumption that you wanted to delete the "claim to be scientific" condition, replacing one definition by another, seems justified. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:22, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Since you ignore my arguments, let's see if others want to chime in. Hypnôs (talk) 01:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

To my knowledge, we define terms as defined by RS's in the article, not necessarily as dictionaries define them. When we have conflicting sources, we state that. How about changing the definition from "that claim to be both scientific and factual" to "that MAY claim to be both scientific and factual"? ---Avatar317 23:14, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

None of the RS cited seem to define it in the way the first sentence does.

I think "may" is too ambiguous, as the only definite criterion remaining would be being "incompatible with the scientific method."

I listed a sources below, which state that pseudoscience either appears to be scientific, or tries to create the impression that it represents the most reliable knowledge on a topic. Hypnôs (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Dictionaries are poor sources. Are there other scholarly sources that state the viewpoint that pseudoscience needn't claim to be scientific? VQuakr (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

From the notes in the current article, the impression is sufficient and no explicit claim to be scientific is required:

• Point 1: Oxford dictionary, as you said a poor source (poor sources should be removed?), but it just says "mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method"
• Point 2: According to Hanson, major proponent merely need to "try to create the impression that it is scientific." 3.4 is about "A wider sense of pseudoscience": "Hence, Grove (1985, 219) included among the pseudoscientific doctrines those that “purport to offer alternative accounts to those of science or claim to explain what science cannot explain." and "In this sense, pseudoscience is assumed to include not only doctrines contrary to science proclaimed to be scientific but doctrines contrary to science tout court, whether or not they are put forward in the name of science."
• Point 3: "Claims presented so that they appear scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility"

Additional sources:

Alan Sokal defines it in Beyond the Hoax (p. 266) as:

...I shall use the term pseudoscience to designate any body of thought that

• (a) makes assertions about real or alleged phenomena and/or real or alleged causal relations that mainstream science justifiably considers to be utterly implausible, and
• (b) attempts to support these assertions through types of argumentation or evidence that fall far short of the logical and evidentiary standards of mainstream science.

Philosophy of Pseudoscience: Reconsidering the Demarcation Problem gives three criteria: (p.70-71)

• pertains to an issue within the domains of science
• suffers from such a severe lack of reliability that it cannot be trusted
• part of a doctrine whose major proponents try to create the impression that it represents the most reliable knowledge on its subject matter

Hypnôs (talk) 04:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

No, dictionary sources need not be removed. We don't base entire articles or lead sentences on them. "Try to create the impression" is reasonably summarized as "claim". I'm not seeing adequate reason to change the lead sentence from these sources, and the specific diff you've proposed is quite wrong. If there's more nuance to be had here that is currently missing, that should be in the article body, not the lead let alone the first sentence and short description. VQuakr (talk) 19:14, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

The current lead sentence has three criteria:

• claim to be scientific
• claim to be factual
• are incompatible with the scientific method

The adequate reason to change it, is that none of the sources define it that way. It is WP:OR/WP:SYNTH (Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source.)

I do not care what it is change to, except it should reflect RS.

I would propose the definition of note 3 is used (the one adopted by the National Science Foundation), which captures the essence of most other definitions:

"Pseudoscience consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that are presented so that they appear to be scientific, but lack supporting evidence and plausibility." (Shermer 1997 p.33) Hypnôs (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

All three of those criteria are covered by the NSF source. You're confusing paraphrase and summary with synth. VQuakr (talk) 06:50, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

This is the NSF quote: "What Is Pseudoscience? Pseudoscience is defined here as "claims presented so that they appear scientific even though they lack supporting evidence and plausibility" (Shermer 1997, p. 33)."

Everything else in the NSF source isn't about the definition of pseudoscience. The three criteria are certainly not covered. They are also not the product of paraphrasing or summary.

On the contrary, it includes topics that are not claimed to be scientific, and topics that are not incompatible with the scientific method. Hypnôs (talk) 07:29, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Citing first sentence

Cited source for the first sentence is . An entire chapter is cited that does not support the content of the first sentence. The author concludes with "In this chapter, we have explored a number of attempts to demarcate science from pseudoscience. But the results have been curiously inconclusive."

Any reasonable objections to changing it to a source ( p. 4) that supports a definition similar to the first sentence? Hypnôs (talk) 17:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

We have several other cites extant in note 1. I removed Curd as redundant. More cites in the lead aren't necessary. VQuakr (talk) 19:10, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

None of which include "claim to be scientific", but " try to create the impression that it is scientific" and "appear scientific".

They also don't include "incompatible with the scientific method", but "mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method".

I'm adding citation needed tags for those phrases so they can be properly sourced. Hypnôs (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I've removed those cn tags. I can't really understand the issue you have with the wording, it looks like a reasonable paraphrase to me - we can't use identical wording to sources. Can you explain what you think is wrong with it? Girth Summit _(blether) 19:44, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

There is an important difference between making a claim and giving an impression/appearance.

That's why reliable sources (Hansson, Schermer, Sokal/Grove, etc.) formulate the definition in a way, so that they include pseudoscience that does not claim to be scientific. To quote Hansson: "pseudoscience is assumed to include not only doctrines contrary to science proclaimed to be scientific but doctrines contrary to science tout court, whether or not they are put forward in the name of science."

Same with the "incompatibility". Pseudoscience is not necessarily incompatible with the scientific method, hence the definitions don't have incompatibility as a criteria.

So the problem is that, while it may sound like paraphrasing, it actually changes the meaning to the point where it doesn't represent the cited sources anymore. Hypnôs (talk) 20:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Already discussed in the section above. This is weird and you're in WP:STICK territory here. VQuakr (talk) 19:57, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:STICK applies to you I would argue. First you asked "Are there other scholarly sources that state the viewpoint that pseudoscience needn't claim to be scientific?" When I gave multiple sources that do, you ignored them and saw no reason for change.

Then you claimed the criteria are "covered by the NSF source", which is objectively untrue.

Then I tried to cite the definition, but you reverted it, reinstating the non-source, which you then removed again.

All I want is for it to be properly cited and reflect the sources, which you seem to vehemently oppose.

You brought forward no reasonable arguments or sources for your position, so I'm not discussing it any further with you. Hypnôs (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

You're the one arguing with multiple other editors. See WP:SATISFY and WP:ONUS. VQuakr (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Hypnôs here. The current statement is poor para-phrasing, which changes the meaning of the sources. This paraphrase is fundamentally changing the meaning of the definitions, as looked at logically by a set-theory approach (is this element part of this set or not, does this claim belong to the pseudoscience set or not) and should be changed to more appropriately reflect the sources. Additionally, if multiple sources use the same wording, than so can we. Calling a dog a "four legged animal" because every source says that is not copyright infringement.---Avatar317 22:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Would a bit of wordsmithing assuage the concerns? I suppose that 'claim' probably isn't the ideal verb, since the subjects (statements, beliefs and practices) don't strike me as things that can actually claim anything themselves. I'll have a ponder, but wouldn't have a problem considering proposals to improve that sentence. Girth Summit _(blether) 13:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

@Avatar317: all sources do not say the same thing as in your dog analogy, and to my knowledge no one has listed copyvio as a concern. VQuakr (talk) 01:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Well then I agree that we should do some wordsmithing. If we can have (I'll work on this also) a list of quotes from sources that we intend to use to support the definition, then maybe we can reach agreement on a better (more accurate) statement. ---Avatar317 21:51, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Avatar317: the three extant sources cited in note 1 are probably a reasonable starting point. @Everyone else: any others that should be included? VQuakr (talk) 23:44, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Cover JA, Curd M, eds. (1998), Philosophy of Science: The Central Issues, pp. 1–82
2. Yeates, L.B. (2018). "James Braid (II): Mesmerism, Braid's Crucial Experiment, and Braid's Discovery of Neuro-Hypnotism". Australian Journal of Clinical Hypnotherapy & Hypnosis. 40 (1): 40–92.

Holocaust denial is a pseudoscience

See Talk:Holocaust denialThis discussion is being centralized to the appropriate talk page. Please discuss further there instead of adding further comments here.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

According to the Misplaced Pages article Why People Believe Weird Things about this book "Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time" there is ample content dedicated to the topic about Holocaust denial.

Furthermore, if history is a science, denial of a documented historic fact like the Holocaust is pseudoscience. I suggest that we add Holocaust Denial to examples of practice of pseudoscience in contemporary times. DTMGO (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

No. History is not a science. Pseudohistory and pseudoarchaeology are distinct albeit related topics from the topic of this article. Pseudohistorians sometimes employ pseudoscientific principles in reaching their conclusions. A book merely having "pseudoscience" in its title and also covering Holocaust denial is not sufficient to change this categorization. VQuakr (talk) 20:48, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I think that the opinions are evenly divided upon whether history is a science or not. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

In Misplaced Pages itself, we consider history to be a science, for example in this article Social science DTMGO (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Noted; not relevant. VQuakr (talk) 21:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should be consistent with itself. DTMGO (talk) 21:50, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Even if we accept that principle, Social science says that it's contested whether History belongs to the sciences or the humanities. As it applies to Holocaust denial, we ought to leave it out. Some things are just wrong without rising to the level of a pseudoscience. MrOllie (talk) 22:01, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Nope, Misplaced Pages should be consistent with the relevant sources. We don't reference ourselves per WP:CIRCULAR and WP:SYNTH. VQuakr (talk) 22:05, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Girth Summit @VQuakr @Roxy the dog Here you have a reputable source backing up the statement that Holocaust denialism is a pseudoscience: "There is widespread agreement for instance that creationism, astrology, homeopathy, Kirlian photography, dowsing, ufology, ancient astronaut theory, Holocaust denialism, Velikovskian catastrophism, and climate change denialism are pseudosciences." DTMGO (talk) 16:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

You've pinged me, but I did not revert your addition of holocaust denial to the list, just your addition of the word 'anthropogenic' (with a typo in it) to qualify climate change denial. To be clear, I'm not saying that the use of the word is wrong exactly, but sources tend to just call it 'climate change denial'. If someone isn't sure what is meant by that phrase, they can click on the link to read the article.

I don't have any particular problem with including Holocaust denial in this article, but I do wonder whether that particular list sentence is already rather too long, and the addition of potentially contestable subjects isn't helping that. Even the source you've provided describes Holocaust deniers as pseudo-historians, and it draws parallels between them and pseudoscientists, rather than flat-out saying that they are pseudoscientists. I'd be happy for it to be discussed in context somewhere in the body of the article, but I think that this sentence in the lead needs pruning rather than extending. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

I added the term anthropogenic, because to deny climate change, and to deny human-caused climate change, are two totally different and separate actions.

Now, you say the list of pseudosciences is too long, we need to prune it, but give no specifics. And you are not trimming it, but don't think I can add to it. The outcome is now that holocaust denial, which is explicitly as per quotes, listed as a pseudoscience by Stanford, is not being allowed to be in the list, but other more fringe and past theories like dowsing are on the list, while there are holocaust deniers even in government power today, see Iran. Seems like it is not giving due weight to the issue. DTMGO (talk) 16:44, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Climate change denial, as the phrase is commonly used, is the denial of anthropogenic climate change. This is discussed, with sourcing, at our article about the subject. We don't need to use qualifiers like that when we can simply link to the article, as we do.

You're correct, I'm not giving specifics; I have floated an idea, and now I will wait and hear what other people think. Why don't we both do that? Girth Summit _(blether) 17:24, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually, there are several flavors of climate change denial. See Climate change denial#Taxonomy of climate change denial All of them have the same goal: protect the free market from regulation. The denier chooses which flavor to use depending on which of them seems to be the most promising. If the mark knows very little science, one can tell him that the climate has always been changing and that there is nothing special about the current climate change. --Hob Gadling (talk) 10:39, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

DTMGO, when I look at the source you provide (https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-science/#toc), I am not convinced. To make sure we understand each other, I'd like you to cite very exactly the parts you see as justifying adding "holocaust denial" (HD) to this article. I don't see it. It's certainly pseudohistory, which is often used to illustrate the errors also made in pseudoscience. That doesn't mean topics properly described as pseudohistory can be equated with topics described as pseudoscience. Just because both words end up in the same paragraph or sentence doesn't mean they are synonyms. Be very careful when parsing such wordings. If HD is truly pseudoscientific, not just pseudohistory, then it should be easy to find multiple very RS to prove it. One or two sources won't be enough. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:19, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Here it is, again: "There is widespread agreement for instance that creationism, astrology, homeopathy, Kirlian photography, dowsing, ufology, ancient astronaut theory, Holocaust denialism, Velikovskian catastrophism, and climate change denialism are pseudosciences."

If one of the best universities in the world is not a good enough source, I am not inclined to waste my time on this. There are multiple bullet points in the article in question, that have no references whatsoever, so why the double standards on my edits, but not those? DTMGO (talk) 09:56, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I can't find widespread agreement, probably because there isn't much. No, holocaust denial is just that, lying out of ignorance, or unconscionable malicious nastiness. There is no excuse for ignorance either. There isn't a trace of science or pseudoscience in the subject. - Roxy the dog 11:41, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that Holocaust denialism is abhorrent, and I am not trying to give it more status or prominence, but that is not the topic.

So you looked in past practices too? There have been "academics" within academia with titles and public positions, in large universities, spewing out Holocaust denial work.

For some examples, look here:

Holocaust denial#Significant individuals and organizations

What I would like to address, is this point: there are multiple examples of pseudoscience in the article in question (ancient astronauts, climate change denial, dowsing, evolution denial, astrology, alternative medicine, ufology, and creationism), that have no RS whatsoever that say that they are a pseudoscience, so why the double standards on my edits, but not those? Is it because my entry is new, and new entries have higher standards? DTMGO (talk) 12:38, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

No, not because it is new, because it is wrong. - Roxy the dog 13:33, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

This article seems to have an ownership problem.

In addition to the Stanford source , , and call Holocaust denial a pseudoscience, for instance. Hypnôs (talk) 14:49, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I've already said that I don't have a problem with describing holocaust denial as pseudoscience; I have a problem with adding it to a sentence in the lead that already lists eight different subjects. That sentence should just give a few prominent examples, three or four would probably be enough - it shouldn't be including every type of pseudoscience, even if they can be supported with sources. I'll also note that our article on Holocaust denial does not use the word pseudoscience/pseudoscientific anywhere - surely this discussion ought to be happening over there? Girth Summit _(blether) 14:58, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

That sentence should just give a few prominent examples, three or four would probably be enough That is actually the most relevant point here. We should not discuss about which new entry to add, but which etries to remove. A nowiki comment not to add any new ones would be a good idea too. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Here is one more "Holocaust revisionism enlists a wide variety of strategies and assumes many different forms adapted to the history and political cultures in which it operates. It has nonetheless developed into an international movement with its own networks, gatherings, public forums, propaganda, and pseudo-scientific journal"

DTMGO (talk) 09:57, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

People seem to have lost sight of the purpose of this article. It is not List of all Pseudosciences. It is Pseudoscience, and any addition to it should be adding value to the reader's understanding of the subject. Whether holocaust denial is a pseudoscience or not, the question is; "What value is it adding to this article"? If it's a disputed matter of just another example in a list of examples, then I'd suggest the answer would be "not much", and is possibly actually a distraction. If it is a pseudoscience, the place to start is in the holocaust denial article, not here. --Escape Orbit 16:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I brought up the point in this article> List of topics characterized as pseudoscience , and User Valjean instructed me to only discuss here in this article's talk section. DTMGO (talk) 16:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@DTMGO, Escape Orbit is right. If we are to include this anywhere in the List, (not in this article), then the best thing to do would be to inlcude mentions of how pseudoscience has been employed in Holocaust denial at that article. — Shibbolethink 17:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Note that the reference right after the examples of pseudosciences is actually the Stanford RS DTMGO (talk) 16:41, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

DTMGO, I should modify my advice to you. Strictly speaking, if you want to document that RS call Holocaust denial a pseudoscience (PS), then that is the article to start with. If you also want to do the same at List of topics characterized as pseudoscience, then this is the place to start, as this is the mother article, and listings at the list article should find some form of backing here, not that this article can be used as a source, but candidates will often be listed in both places. Because the sourcing issues would be the same in both cases (PS is the topic), it's nice to deal with this discussion here first, as you'll get plenty of input on the pseudoscience angle, which is the common thread in both cases. Then, after you've gotten more ammo and developed your arguments, go to Holocaust denial article and try there. Does that make sense to you?

In all cases, it's ultimately not about "truth", but "veracity". If you can get several good sources, then you can justify an edit. I say "several" because, contrary to what the Stanford source (a very good one) says, there is not "widespread agreement" about Holocaust denial as a pseudoscience. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary/more evidence/sourcing. One good source isn't enough. Gather several and you'll have a strong case. What I wish for you is that you don't end up wasting your time. Build a strong case and you'll get support from others. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:11, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. This is spot on, despite my forthright attitude here. -Roxy the dog 20:19, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean: It's worth noting though that the Stanford source does not claim there is widespread agreement that HD is a pseudoscience, except in the specific context where the adjacent "pseudos" are lumped together as described earlier in the source (section 2). The misrepresentations of history presented by Holocaust deniers and other pseudo-historians are very similar in nature to the misrepresentations of natural science promoted by creationists and homeopaths. To paraphrase, the Stanford source notes that if pseudohistory is considered pseudoscience, then there is widespread agreement that HD is pseudoscience. VQuakr (talk) 05:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I noted that. They are discussed together, but we can't get away from the fact that they placed HD in a list of famous examples of pseudoscience. I think much of the issue is the confluence and similarities of logical fallacies that occur in both pseudohistory and pseudoscience. They are the same types of fallacies. There are also border issues. Also, how does one define science? There are several types: hard, soft, natural, social sciences, etc. My background is medical science, not social. I am not an expert at discussing all the epistemological angles of this stuff. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 06:26, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorta similar; physics and biochem background. We're not getting away from the list by putting that single sentence in context. VQuakr (talk) 06:55, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

If my point wasn't clear enough: it is useless to debate here whether history is a science, since this is an issue upon which rational people just cannot agree, there is no consensus in sight, so people are arguing for arguing's sake. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:07, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

a very salient point. I would probably side with OP in that some form of entry is warranted but specifically focused on the pseudoscientific evidence often provided to defend HD. But I think arguing it here in the absence of a source review and a draft of the entry is pretty meaningless. I would suggest OP take an overall discussion of this (with sources and a draft) to the Talk:Holocaust denial page and tag us all there. That would satisfy many of the participants here. — Shibbolethink 13:53, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

In essence, all I have done was try to add the words "Holocaust denialism" to the list of examples of pseudoscience, as per the reference that existed right after that sentence itself, and the sentence itself has these words in its text, literally. So it is a small change, that was reverted, and highlights that the list of examples of pseudoscience seems to be too long. I realize it is a thorny controversial sensitive subject, and I rather not continue pursuing it too much. Again, all I did was edit a list that was referenced itself in the preexisting source of that sentence. It is not a major change or a significant change. But it has called the attention of so many experienced editors. This source (Laqueur Walter Judith Tydor Baumel-Schwartz and Mazal Holocaust Collection. 2001. The Holocaust Encyclopedia. New Haven: Yale University Press. pp 300) says that holocaust revisionism has its own pseudoscientific journals. There is one article in Misplaced Pages with an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/Journal_of_Historical_Review DTMGO (talk) 10:46, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Both the hard and soft sciences have problems with pseudoscience

Forgive me if I have missed coverage of this in the article, but the strong opposition to adding Holocaust denial to this article/subject leads me to think we need to deal with this topic in this article. I suspect that we tend to think of pseudoscience only from the background of denial of the facts in the hard sciences.

Because "Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge" (Sagan), we need to get away from focusing on the "denial of facts" common to all pseudoscientific claims. It's more about "wrong thinking" (logical fallacies) than "wrong facts". The wrong facts of pseudohistory (as in holocaust denial) are often completely different than the wrong facts of pseudoscience (like homeopathy and chiropractic "vertebral subluxation"), but the logical fallacies are the same, ergo both types are pseudoscientific.

I think much of the problem is related to various demarcation issues, differing terminologies, and the confluence and similarities of the logical fallacies that occur in both pseudohistory and pseudoscience. Also, how does one define science? There are several types: hard, soft, natural, social, etc. I am not a good person to do this, as I am not an expert at discussing all the epistemological angles of this stuff. My background is in the hard sciences, specifically medical science, not the soft/social sciences.

So we need coverage (maybe one good paragraph would be enough) of pseudoscience as wrong thinking, per Sagan. If something involves wrong thinking, it might be categorized as pseudoscience. That should be our inclusion criteria. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:15, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes I would agree. The demarcation problem is a central thing here, and I think we should provide several different methods of it from the most salient thinkers on the subject.Good sources for such a paragraph would include:

• Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World
• Michael Shermer's Science and Pseudoscience: Revisiting the Demarcation Problem and The Skeptic encyclopedia of pseudoscience
• Brian Regal's Pseudoscience : a critical encyclopedia
• Massimo Pigliucci's Philosophy of pseudoscience : reconsidering the demarcation problem
• Martin Gardner's Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science
• Scott Lilienfeld's Science and pseudoscience in clinical psychology
• William Williams' Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience : From Alien Abductions to Zone Therapy
• Ben Goldacre's Bad Science

— Shibbolethink 18:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

External links

There are ten entries in the "External links". Three seems to be an acceptable number and of course, everyone has their favorite to add for four. The problem is that none is needed for article promotion.

• ELpoints #3) states: Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
• LINKFARM states: There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Misplaced Pages. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
• WP:ELMIN: Minimize the number of links.

The "External links" section needs trimming. -- Otr500 (talk) 08:45, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

We're not in linkfarm territory as the links obviously don't dwarf the article. Which links are you proposing to remove and why? VQuakr (talk) 17:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Reply: I apologize for any sarcasm that might seem evident, and I mean this in the nicest of ways, but I cannot (or will not) discuss or debate with someone that would argue that blue is not really blue. Your reply causes me to be flabbergasted. Nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links, unequivocally doesn't mean 6, 8, or 10. See: ELNO #1 Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. In other words, the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article. Links that may be used to improve the page in the future can be placed on the article's talk page. As an afterthought; everything looks great. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Not what I said but ok. VQuakr (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Reverts

Hi. I tried to add relevant information to the topic of pseudoscience but I have been reverted a couple of times. Said info is about a case where mainstream experts ridicule someone for advocating handwashing. For some reason I keep getting reverted. The latest revert has an edit summary with a completely distorted interpretation of the proper part of the reference (maybe User:Black Kite only read the title of the citation). Even though the main topic of the reference is about masks, in its body of text the situation of Dr. Semmelweis is narrated. For example it states, "But fate did not reward Semmelweis for his intelligent and humane work. He was harassed and despised by his peers, professionally destroyed by office politics, ignored by the medical community and ultimately driven insane."

The relevance of this regarding the topic of pseudoscience is clear and illustrates that sometimes the community of experts at large is driven by pseudoscientific beliefs and not by science. According to the current lead of this Pseudoscience page, "Pseudoscience consists of statements, beliefs, or practices that claim to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method.". The WP:NPOV policy states, "All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

I request that the content be reinstated. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:27, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@Thinker78: Semmelweis had a genial intuition. But that belongs in the context of discovery. In the context of justification, no, he wasn't persuasive, so what he posited did not count as as science, simply because he failed to convince the scientific community, aka organized skepticism.

You should know that science is never about WP:THETRUTH, but about epistemologically responsible knowledge.

While there is a Romantic opinion that adversities and strenuous opposition drive one insane, I don't think that's how psychosis works. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Thinker78, what happened in prescientific days should not be conflated with what happens now. Accusations of "pseudoscience" in old times are misplaced and somewhat off-topic here. Anti-maskers are not like Semmelweis in any sense. They don't understand the basics of science, pathology, or medicine. If you want to be classified in the same category as Semmelweis, you must understand ALL of that BETTER than the best scientists and physicians. Only then do you have the right to a place in the pantheon of great minds.

This discussion reminds me of this Sagan quote: "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." Anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, and anti-climate changers are Bozos. They are ignoramuses. If they want to convince us or other scientists, they must be able to prove they understand and explain ALL of the current evidence, and then intelligently prove it is deficient and their explanations are better. Do they ever do that? Never. They just display their ignorance every single time they open their mouths. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Valjean, you stated, "Anti-maskers are not like Semmelweis in any sense". I think you epically misinterpreted the referenced article. I mean its title is self-evident for goodness sake, "Today's anti-mask activists have much in common with anti-handwashing doctors of the 1840s". Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 01:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

User:Thinker78, sorry for creating confusion. I wasn't directly addressing the article. I haven't read it and only saw what was mentioned in this thread. I was discussing more about the principles involved and the "reasoning" we frequently encounter with believers in pseudoscience. They think the PS ideas pushed by their favorite guru or alt med therapist will be proven true, and that the mainstream medical community is like those who rejected Semmelweis. Read in that context, maybe my comment will make more sense to you. Anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, and anti-climate changers think their POV will win out, and that all the mainstream scientific and medical world are like those who opposed Semmelweis. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:00, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Delayed acceptance of a new belief until the underlying mechanism is understood isn't pseudoscience. See also plate tectonics and paradigm shift. VQuakr (talk) 18:45, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

It was not just delayed acceptance. It was actually as I pointed out, "statements, beliefs, or practices that claim to be both scientific and factual but are incompatible with the scientific method". Dr. Semmelweis was "harassed and despised by his peers, professionally destroyed by office politics, ignored by the medical community". Thinker78 (talk) 01:09, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

That's a pretty crappy source; it only mentions Semmelweis as an analogy, only mentions pseudoscience in the byline, and is Salon.com. Yes it sucks that Semmelweis was maltreated but bullying isn't pseudoscience either. VQuakr (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Unwarranted faith in empiricism can amount to little more than dogma. It must be acknowledged that here is little in the way of evidence to date that demonstrates that an empirical approach can eliminate the dangers inherent in human interpretation and subjectivity. The pervasiveness of medical denialism, and well-known historical cases, such as the rejection of Semmelweiss's empirical evidence of how to reduce infections in surgicalprocedures, seem to highlight this problem. Thinker78 (talk) 05:57, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@Thinker78: African Health Sciences: Makerere Medical School seems like a borderline source indeed. Compare with the perspective in PMC1743827: Semmelweis made salient observations and identified a significant need for improvement in the process of patient care. There can be no doubt about that. However, he lacked change agent skills. First of all, and even though it proved to be one of the great medical publications of the 19th century, he did not publish his findings until 14 years after his observations. Without this evidence, his arrogance and dogmatism were not sufficiently convincing to overshadow the other competing theories of puerperal fever at that time. Failure to provide empirical support for a surprising finding isn't pseudoscience. VQuakr (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

@VQuakr, you stated, "Failure to provide empirical support for a surprising finding isn't pseudoscience". Re-analyze your statement, I am not sure if you meant that. You are directly implying that failure to provide empirical support for a surprising finding is pseudoscience. I would think the opposite is true. Cheers! Thinker78 (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, we can't really talk about pseudoscience when dealing with the prescientific era. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

According to the article History of science, Science's earliest roots can be traced to Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia around 3000 to 1200 BCE. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 05:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course. The exceptional people who really moved knowledge forward understood certain aspects of what we now call the scientific method. I was thinking of the full implementation of the scientific method in all the scientific disciplines, especially medicine, which is a relatively recent phenomenon. Some elements have been used by certain people since ancient times.

Experimentation is an ancient concept, but alone often proves nothing related to the wider population. The conflation of association and causation has always created problems, and modern scientists have developed better ways to screen for those problems. In alternative medicine and other pseudoscientific areas, they still conflate those matters. To them, anecdotes and popularity are proof. They don't realize that "The plural of anecdote is not data." (Roger Brinner) or that "Humans have brains that are built to work on anecdote rather than real data." (Jeffrey P. Utz, MD) or that "Anecdotes are useless precisely because they may point to idiosyncratic responses." (Pediatric Allergy & Immunology, 1999 Nov;10(4) 226-234) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:26, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The article History of pseudoscience starts in the 19th century. Semmelweis has a dedicated paragraph in History of medicine. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, he's an important figure in medical history. If RS describe his critics as pseudoscientists, then those sources could be used to mention his critics in the first article. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Rozsa, Matthew (1 Oct 2021). "Today's anti-mask activists have much in common with anti-handwashing doctors of the 1840s". Salon. Retrieved 19 Apr 2023.
2. Callaghan, Chris (Dec 2019). "Pseudoscience in medicine: cautionary recommendations". PubMed. Retrieved 22 Apr 2023.

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