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Revision as of 19:53, 27 June 2023

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DarrellWinkler

My very best wishes

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning My very best wishes

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

PaulT2022 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

1. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland#My_very_best_wishes_bans
2. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland#Impact_on_the_Eastern_Europe_topic_area_(II)
3. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Contentious_topic_designation

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 9-13 June: Here, "My very best wishes", in violation of the broadly construed World War II in Poland topic ban, edits an article that discusses WWII monuments in Poland specifically, and buildings constructed by Nazi Germany and Soviet regimes in Eastern Europe more generally, edit-warring to reintroduce poorly sourced POV that has been challenged by multiple editors. (Edit-warring diffs in the comments below.)
2. 7 June, 17 June: In another violation of the topic ban, MVBW edits an article about a slogan widely associated in the past with OUN, notable for its participation in Holocaust in Poland, and discusses whether a salute used by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, fighting in Poland during WWII, is reminiscent of the salute used by the members of OUN.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

20 May: My very best wishes was topic-banned from WWII in Poland following a previous arbitration decision.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on the 20 August 2022

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

This request isn't merely an attempt to formally escalate arguably marginal topic ban violations. I was involved in the recent Totalitarian architecture AfD and observed how many of the findings from the arbitration case apply to the broader area of MVBW's editing.

Most of the Totalitarian architecture article, 64% by text, is written by MVBW. It was brought to a second AfD due to synthesis concerns. Half of the AfD participants proposed some sort of WP:TNT option, considering the article to contain synthesis. The statement that "totalitarian architecture" is an architectural style, as well as the thrust of the entire article advocating this viewpoint lacked consensus.

Following the AfD discussion, User:Paragon Deku rewritten the article on 24 May to rectify concerns expressed by the AfD participants.

Failing to achieve consensus (for "Style of architecture in totalitarian states" - see AfD, for "officially approved... international style" - see AfD and Talk:Totalitarian_architecture#Recent_changes_(WP:OR)), MVBW resorted to edit warring to restore their original claims from 14 July 2021 on 9 June 2023 and again, after being reverted by SnowFire, on 11-13 June 2023

This led to Paragon Deku expressing a feeling of burnout on 14 June 2023 after an evident failure of dispute resolution processes.

There were also multiple instances of edit warring to keep the preferred POV in the article prior to the MVBW's topic ban, for example:

1. 17 July 2021, 7 May 2023
2. 23 July 2021, 24 July 2021
3. 13 July 2021, 20 July 2021, 21 July 2021, 21 July 2021

I'm bringing up the broader pattern of the MVBW's editing for review as the MVBW's topic ban, in addition to apparently being disregarded by repeated attempts to test its boundaries, failed to improve the editing and talk page behaviour of MVBW in the wider EE topic area, and urging administrators to consider an appropriate enforcement action taking the "Impact on the Eastern Europe topic area (II)" remedy into account.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Special:Diff/1161414284

Discussion concerning My very best wishes

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by My very best wishes

Please accept my apology for topic ban violation on page Slava Ukraine. That was unintentional, and I realized it was a topic ban violation only 4 days after my edit. How did it happen?

1. When I came to edit this page on June 2, it existed in this version. It did not mention Poland anywhere and seemed to be a purely Ukrainian subject. Hence, I thought it was safe for me to edit.
2. Then, immediately after my edit, Marcelus makes this edit , with edit summary added more information of the usage of the greeting by OUN, OUN-B, UPA, and regular Ukrainians especially during the WW2. In this edit, Marcelus included new text that appears in the diff by ScottishFinnishRadish, i.e. “After the creation in the second half of 1942, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) took over the salute from the OUN-B, but dropped the fascist-like raising of the right arm above the head…” and so on.
3. I started making various changes in the new version by Marcelus, one of which was indeed a topic ban violation as appears in the diff by ScottishFinnishRadish. I did not realize it was a violation at the moment of making the edit because I perceived it per description in the edit summary by Marcelus, i.e. a material about Ukrainian nationalist organizations (OUN, etc.). That was my mistake.

• To avoid such missteps in the future, I will stay away not only of any pages/content related to Poland during WWI| or Jewish history, but also of any contributors (such as Marcelus) who are focused on editing in this area, because they include such content “on the fly” to many pages they edit (as in this case).

• Speaking about the broad ban from all EE subjects, I understand the concern by admins here (i.e. I might commit a similar topic ban violation in a future), but I am confident I will be able to avoid it. If you check my edit history, nearly all my edits during last several years were in EE area. If such wide topic ban will be enacted, I still will be able to participate in the project, but much less than I would participate otherwise.

• Copied over from User talk:My very best wishes by starship.paint (exalt)

My apology if my statement (copied from above) was not clear enough; and I am ready to answer additional questions if any. My very best wishes (talk) 18:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC) Copied from User talk:My very best wishes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Marcelus

As the MVBW edition was about the changes I made to the article and the ongoing discussion between us, I feel obliged to add some context. I have a full understanding of why MVBW made this change in the belief that he was not breaking their ban. In the discussion the topic of "Poland and World War II" was almost completely absent, my edits and discussion were about the whole history of the greeting and its use primarily in the pre-war period. Mainly its use by Ukrainian nationalist organizations. Of course, probably MVBW should have been a bit more careful, but by engaging in an article at first glance completely unrelated to the topic of "Poland and World War II" they understandably lowered their guard more than they would have if they had edited something closer to that topic.Marcelus (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Adoring nanny

A rule like "stay away from topic X" seems like a difficult one to follow. I should know as I once screwed that up myself, though I also noticed my mistake more quickly than MVBW appears to have done. Avoiding articles about topic X is step one. But, as happened both in my case and the case of MVBW, there is the additional problem of avoiding it when topic X comes up in an article about something else. One establishes a mental filter, which is a step in the right direction. But having such a filter engaged at all times is more difficult. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Statement by Shibbolethink

I'd like to say something here, as someone uninvolved in the area who has interacted with MVBW elsewhere (always civil disagreement, but usually disagreement). I understand where admins below are coming from saying the TBAN should be broadened, but I think it would be excessive and punitive in effect. I think a block of 1 month is more than enough.

The holocaust in Poland area was a huge pile of flaming trash, and Misplaced Pages dropped the ball on many LTAs who received either no sanctions or too lenient ones. I followed the Arb case from the side lines and I completely agree with the recommendation to be very firm with future sanctions, to increase normal durations, etc. Misplaced Pages had a big issue here, and AC needed to make a strong statement on what our standards are. That impulse is absolutely justified, and usually well-served, but I think may be running a bit too far here.

I think User:Barkeep49 below made a good point that I want to underline: For many of the editors sanctioned in the case this would argue for more strict enforcement. Given the previous lack of blocks/enforcement against MVBW I think it's fair to say that a first offense of this topic ban not be treated as severely as a first time offense for other parties to the case. My understanding of the Arb recc for longer blocks was to stymie the impression that LTAs would be granted any further leniency in this situation. MVBW, on the other hand, is not really a "long-term abuser" in this area, not in the sense other parties were. I would have considered them a prime candidate to get their TBAN lifted in 6 months or a year, frankly. A 2 week or 1 month block is a sufficient "shot across the bow" to demonstrate the importance of following their WWII-Poland TBAN.

TBANning from the entirety of EE would be punitive, rather than preventative. Consider MVBW in total. Their edits in this area are most likely due to having eastern European heritage and some subject-matter knowledge. I understand the problems with their edits in the Holocaust subsection. But I have seen no evidence of such problems elsewhere. I see no evidence of malice or intent in this TBAN violation. Many of their edits in the area overall are of high quality. My impression is that if such a broadened "all EE" TBAN were to be enacted, it would substantially curb MVBW's ability to enjoy and contribute positively to the project, without preventing much, if any, disruption. That, to me, is the very definition of punishment for the sake of it, rather than to prevent problems.

I think the message from a 1 month block is perfectly clear: be more careful of your TBAN, MVBW. This is an early stage warning. It gets worse from here.— Shibbolethink 16:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Statement by (editor)

Result concerning My very best wishes

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• I've blocked for one week as this is an unambiguous topic ban violation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  Given the unambiguous nature of the violation and how recent the case was? That was very, very lenient. Courcelles (talk) 17:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  I tend to fall on the lenient side when there is a discussion open. Now we have a week to form a consensus while they're already blocked.

  I checked their block log and saw that they didn't have any history of blocks, so although this was soon after the case I felt that starting the standard 1 week -> 1 month -> 3 month escalation was reasonable. I'm not tied down to that, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  This case has a special enforcement provision, though, allowing even initial blocks to be up to a year. And we’re basically under directive from Arbcom to drop the hammer in this topic area. It’s such a flagrant violation that I’d be ready to just topic ban from Eastern Europe entirely. Courcelles (talk) 18:01, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry for the delay getting back to this, was pretty tied up over the weekend. The special enforcement provision says Administrators placing blocks should take into account an editor's overall conduct and Arbitration history and seriously consider increasing the duration of blocks. As far as I can tell, the only conduct of MVBW's that made the final decision was specifically about their conduct in relation to the case: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland#My very best wishes' conduct during the case, and they had only a single self-requested block.

  I'm leaning towards Valereee's thinking, and I think one week blocked and a warning that the next violation comes with an expanded topic ban and a much longer block is probably sufficient. I don't have an issue with bumping the block to 30 days and giving a final logged warning, either, as that seems closer to where the consensus rests, splitting the difference and ending up at Tamzin. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  @Courcelles, Tamzin, Seraphimblade, and Valereee:, extend block to 30 days, logged warning that any further violations will be met with a 90 day block (triggering the Arbcom review provision) and a full EE topic ban? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think there's a need to specify how long the next block might be, especially since not all EE violations would fall under the HJP review clause. But otherwise I support this. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 17:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Just to provide my thinking...the editor has apologized, stated they realize they made a mistake, and have come up with a plan to avoid making the same mistake again. I don't see the point in extending the block. But I can see I'm by far in the minority here, and I trust the judgement of others here. Valereee (talk) 17:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Given the time stamp of that diff, and MYBW only changing their tune about their topic ban violation after the first mentions of serious sanctions dropping here, I do not believe this to be sufficient. After getting topic banned directly by the committee last month? I’m not being particularly charitable here, but I am very unimpressed with how they responded initially. Courcelles (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  It's definitely not my first choice. If the consensus here is to go with that as a sort of compromise solution, I suppose I'm not categorically opposed, but I think we should be clear that we are not messing around here, so I would still at least as a first choice stand by what I first said. Seraphimblade 18:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  If we're at a 2–2–1 split here as to what is best in keeping with ArbCom's intent, should this just be referred to ARCA? -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't really think so. We've figured stuff like this out before, and the facts aren't terribly complex. If SFR's solution is at least somewhat okay with everyone, even if not ideal for them, then that might be what it ends up being. Seraphimblade 18:55, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  I don't want to go to ARCA. I want us to figure this out. As Seraphimblade says, it's not complex. It's just that it's kind of new to us, but we really do need to figure out for ourselves how to deal with these. (Full disclosure: Also as someone who has been arguing for leniency, I don't think ARCA will lean in that direction.) Valereee (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Okay… spitballing here in terms of what we can do and maybe agree on. Make the block a fortnight and expand the topic ban to World War II and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, rather than just Poland. That could be enough to unambiguously cordon off this area and draw a line that further misconduct will not be tolerated. (Essentially replacing Poland in the current topic ban with Eastern Europe). The message, either logged or just delivered here, is that the entire EE area goes, at a minimum, if MVBW violates this. Courcelles (talk) 19:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  I'm okay with that. Seraphimblade 19:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Likewise. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 19:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

• I also take ArbCom's remedies as a directive to tend strongly toward the upper end of reasonable sanctions. I would support a one-month block under HJP and, under ARBEE, either a TBAN from Eastern Europe or a logged only-warning, with instructions to future admins to TBAN without further warning if disruption recurs. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 21:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
• If being directly topic banned by ArbCom isn't warning enough, I don't think a logged warning from us is going to do any better. Given that and the blatant nature of the violation, I would not support anything short of a topic ban from the Eastern Europe area entirely, and also wouldn't object to lengthening the block to a month. Seraphimblade 03:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  I will note, though, that MVBW made some statements on their user talk page while blocked, and was blocked early in this process, so I've asked them if they want to make that statement here. While I do support sanctions at this time, and I don't see that as likely to change, I don't think we should sanction someone if they haven't had any opportunity to even tell their side of the story. Seraphimblade 22:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

• I like to interpret these kinds of vios very leniently, especially in early days. Let's give this editor a little learning room. Valereee (talk) 02:04, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think the committee was crystal clear about our jaundiced opinion of giving established users in this topic area "a little learning room". -- Guerillero 14:35, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, you really, unambiguously were. Courcelles (talk) 14:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with what @Guerillero writes (and Courcelles agrees to) and if I'd thought of saying it like that I'd have replied to Valereee when I first saw it. I will also note, at least for me, Administrators placing blocks should take into account an editor's overall conduct matters. For many of the editors sanctioned in the case this would argue for more strict enforcement. Given the previous lack of blocks/enforcement against MVBW I think it's fair to say that a first offense of this topic ban not be treated as severely as a first time offense for other parties to the case. What that means is something I'm very happy to leave to the discretion of admins here. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)