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This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Isaac Stanley-Becker (September 25, 2019). "Checking the Web on Hunter Biden? A 36-year-old physicist helps decide what you'll see". Washington Post. Retrieved September 25, 2019. The page has been viewed nearly 230,000 times in the past 30 days, more than the page for Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House, or for Vice President Pence. Misplaced Pages dominates Google's search results and helps supply the information spit out by Siri and Amazon Alexa.

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Q: Why does this article characterize the allegations of corruption vis a vis Ukraine as "false"? A: Please see the article Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory and the discussion at its talk page.

restore requested

I do not find the stated rationale for this reversion persuasive and I recommend the edit be restored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hunter_Biden&diff=prev&oldid=1162570922

soibangla (talk) 23:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

That section is way too long. Maybe you could suggest something that could be removed before adding more material? GA-RT-22 (talk) 00:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Unverified comments in Misplaced Pages stories.

I just read the article regarding Hunter Biden and am personally incensed by the statement "Since early 2019, Hunter and his father Joe Biden have been the subjects of false and baseless claims of corrupt activities in a Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory pushed by then-U.S. President Donald Trump and his allies."

This is a totally biased and demonstrably false statement. Yes, Hunter and Joe Biden have been charged with corrupt activities, but there has been no official decision whether or not there is factual basis for those charges. In fact, there is significant evidence supporting the veracity of the charges, and only Joe Biden's denials to disprove those accusations.

I suggest you remove the obviously biased, fallacious claim that the accusations are false and baseless, and the subject is far from decided at this point. Misplaced Pages should work harder to verify the accuracy and obvious bias of statements posted on their space, especially if you continue to beg for money from people of ALL political leanings to continue your presence on social media.

BE FAIR, NOT BIASED IF YOU WANT TO SURVIVE. Lennypooh (talk) 22:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree and have changed "false and baseless" to "contested." Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I have changed it back since these are false and baseless claims. Biden critics can say whatever they want, that doesn't mean we provide WP:FALSEBALANCE to them. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:08, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Asserting that they are "false and baseless claims" is decidedly NOT neutral, unbiased language. It would be equally egregious to claim that they are true. "Contested" is neutral. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

No, we report what the sources report. Do you see how many sources after that line call them "false"? "Neutral" means "neutrally reflecting the sources", not trying to hedge in between two positions, especially when they are not equal. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:25, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

There is a vital distinction that you and others need to understand, as there are many are trying to blur the distinctions. The sentence you cite specifically references the Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory, which has been specifically shown to be false, years ago. More recently, there have been other allegations such as bribery and money laundering, which are now pending. See Comer investigation of Biden family to see where those allegations presently stand. soibangla (talk) 23:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree with this comment. What happened to the rule “neutral point of view?” Some accusations and conspiracies have been debunked. 2600:1700:EE10:57F0:8572:149D:EC12:1B95 (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Stop it

You are both in violation of the Misplaced Pages:Contentious topics procedures. Stop it immediately. (edit to add: Bookworm857158367 and Muboshgu, not the rest of you who are here to discuss) GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I didn't revert more than twice and suggested it be discussed on the talk page. I still don't think the current wording is neutral. "Contested" might be or "What (Insert sources) stated (or a court/investigation determined) are false and baseless claims" would be neutral. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 00:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

did you see "false" and "falsely" in the lead of Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory, to which the sentence in question here refers? soibangla (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

So just attribute it. The sentence should say who or what investigating agency determined they are false and baseless allegations. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 00:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Attribution is unnecessary here, but go ahead if you disagree. soibangla (talk) 00:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I do think it is necessary to say exactly where this statement is coming from.Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

it's right there in footnote #4 soibangla (talk) 01:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I see news articles from The New York Times, USA Today, The Guardian and The New Yorker, among others, all asserting that the claims are false and baseless. Maybe I'm missing a government source. It might be more accurate to say no charges have ever been filed and no one has been convicted as a result of these allegations. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:21, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Then again, it might be more accurate to say it was a fabricated hoax designed to smear the Bidens to win an election. soibangla (talk) 01:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That is certainly the way the story has been represented in these particular sources, yes. The factual statement would be that he has never been charged or convicted and investigatory reporting by The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Guardian, USA Today and others have stated the allegations are false and baseless. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Multiple reliable secondary sources have characterized the allegation as false. That's how we do things here. We don't keep a conspiracy theory alive by hinting at a possibility it could be true just because no court has shown otherwise. soibangla (talk) 01:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Again, just attribute it. "Investigatory reporting by multiple news agencies (footnote) found the claims were false and baseless. No charges were brought and no one was convicted of any crimes related to these allegations" etc. etc. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Many reliable secondary sources say the allegation is false. I see no reason to make an extraordinary exception by qualifying that here, though I can understand why some might like to. soibangla (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

See above. It's a point of contention, so a neutral and objective editor will say who has said the claims are false and baseless and why. Name the multiple secondary sources quoted by the various investigatory reports or, if that is too lengthy, say "Investigatory reporting by multiple news agencies, quoting legal experts, have determined the charges were false and baseless. (footnote citing all sources) No charges were ever brought." Bookworm857158367 (talk) 02:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I oppose your proposal soibangla (talk) 02:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Why is that? Attribution makes clear where the statements came from — investigatory reporters quoting various secondary sources — and gives the factual statement that no charges were ever brought. I think the primary objection above is probably that to the lay reader it makes it sound like Misplaced Pages or whoever edited the article is the one making the statement. Not everyone is going to read every source story in that footnote. Your opinion and mine do not belong there. So, in this instance, because it is a point of contention, make it crystal clear where it comes from. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

It isn't necessary. Zaathras (talk) 03:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

You don't get to revert more than once. Please familiarize yourself with the policies. GA-RT-22 (talk) 03:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

"Just the facts, please."

The exchange regarding this article reminds me why "old" journalistic standards need to be reinstituted. Once upon a time, young journalists were trained to write just the facts. A publishable, news-worthy piece could contain no hint of the writer/reporter's personal stance on a topic or event. Biased writing was typically considered unprofessional and would result in the article being canned (or assigned to another writer) unless it was specifically identified as an editorial piece. As an educator I used to tell my students that while they could generally rely on the news, they had to beware of the subtle wording of commercials because those were Designed to sell you something. Unfortunately, right now it seems nearly everyone, even once respected news journalists, are in the business of "selling" their opinions. I know this is "just" Misplaced Pages, but I've long enjoyed searching out information here and, yes, I have even referred students to the site after warning them to use their critical thinking skills when browsing. When searching for information, we would all do well to look for articles written by authors who present the relevant facts and who realize their readers are intelligent enough to either form their own opinions or reserve judgement for another time. 50.41.24.177 (talk) 01:30, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

As a onetime reporter, I agree. The reporter's opinion has no place in a story. Objectivity is paramount. If an assertion has been made, it should be attributed to a particular source. As for suggestions to improve the article, I have made them above. Attribution is necessary here. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 02:15, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Talk pages are not intended for philosophical discussions, but rather to discuss specific ways to improve articles. If you have a specific recommendation on how this article can be improved (change this, remove that) we'd certainly welcome it. soibangla (talk) 01:34, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages editors follow policy, articles about current events should summarize what appears in mainstream news sources. News media has always been biased, it's just nostalgia to say they weren't. Walter Cronkite for example is praised for saying in 1968 that the Vietnam War was unwinnable. But for the last decade he had been reporting all the garbage the Pentagon told him, including the lie about the Tonkin incident.

Anyway, Misplaced Pages articles are less qualified at finding the truth than journalists. This is the best we can do. TFD (talk) 02:21, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Some of the problem is the sources that Misplaced Pages editors deem acceptable and those they have decided should be denigrated, as well as the "narrative" that most national mainstream news agencies adopt and what they deem worthy of covering. National reporters do tend to be liberal. National editorial boards are as well. Citing news coverage by more centrist or conservative publications, such as The Wall Street Journal or The London Telegraph, as well as The Times and The Guardian, might improve the overall balance. But I do think attributing the statements so readers know where they came from would vastly improve this article. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 02:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Let's take this from the obverse direction. Can you provide news sources (not WSJ opinion pieces) that you deem do not tend to be liberal that contradict what our many reliable secondary sources say here, and have said for years without correction or retraction? soibangla (talk) 03:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, they didn't report otherwise and I don't have the time or the inclination to start digging for additional articles in a paper I stopped subscribing to a while back. I do think the statement should be attributed and phrased as I wrote above, for the reasons I gave above, so that it doesn't read as though Misplaced Pages is the one saying it. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 03:27, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, you seem to say there is an overreliance on sources that tend to be liberal and posit there might be news coverage by more centrist or conservative publications and I asked you to provide some but you don't seem interested in doing that. "false and baseless" is not written in wikivoice, it's just been overwhelmingly supported by reliable sources for literally years now. I have to wonder if more recent allegations of bribes and money laundering and tapes and coverup might be causing some to call into question what has been established fact for years. soibangla (talk) 03:38, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

What you are suggesting (attribution and re-phrasing) is not our policy. "Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Misplaced Pages's voice. Unless a topic specifically deals with a disagreement over otherwise uncontested information, there is no need for specific attribution for the assertion, although it is helpful to add a reference link to the source in support of verifiability." "False and baseless" is uncontested. See WP:NPOV. GA-RT-22 (talk) 05:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

"Walter Cronkite for example is praised for saying in 1968 that the Vietnam War was unwinnable. But for the last decade he had been reporting all the garbage the Pentagon told him" I thought Walter Cronkite was famous for his political activism in support o the fInterfaith Alliance, the Common Cause, the Constitution Project, the Citizens for Global Solutions, and the Drug Policy Alliance. He was also a vocal critic of the Christian right. Dimadick (talk) 10:54, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

"why "old" journalistic standards need to be reinstituted" They are "old" because they are outdated and worthless. The facts are meaningless without interpretations and opinions. This is also the deference between historical trivia in chronicles and the suggested interpretation of events in history books. Dimadick (talk) 10:35, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

"Outdated and worthless?" No. The only place interpretations and opinions belong is on the editorial page. A journalist needs to be fair and objective and able to cover any subject without giving any hint what his or her personal opinion might be. Bookworm857158367 (talk) 11:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Hunter Biden arrested for "possession of controlled substance" in 1988

Hello, I would like to propose an addition to Hunter Biden's page. In 1988, Hunter Biden was arrested and charged with "possession of controlled substance." The arrest occurred in Stone Harbor, New Jersey. He was 18 at the time.

Hunter Biden's arrest is also mentioned in disclosures he made as part of his nomination to the Amtrak Reform Board. “In June 1988, I was cited for possession of a controlled substance in Stone Harbor, New Jersey. There was a pretrial intervention, and the record was expunged,” Hunter Biden acknowledged during a 2006 hearing before the Senate Committee on Science, Commerce, and Transportation on his nomination.

The information can be attributed to this 2019 news story from the Washington Examiner: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/revealed-hunter-biden-possession-of-a-controlled-substance-charge-kept-under-wraps-while-father-spearheaded-drug-war-from-senate

As a new account I cannot add the information myself, but I do believe it warrants an addition. There are other references on his page to his past drug use, as well as his discharge from thee U.S. Navy for failing a drug test. Lambland1996 (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Have you got a better source? We can't use the Washington Examiner, per WP:RSP. GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:22, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I have a general problem in a WP:BLP of bringing up a 35 year old charge when someone was a teenager that was expunged. Expungement means any record has been completely removed; not even available to police. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The Washington Examiner source is not enough to establish weight at this time. @Lambland1996: if there are more sources covering this you should provide them; in accordance with WP:ONUS. If there were to be considerable RS coverage of this arrest, I don't think there would be WP:BLPCRIME issue even though he was young and the arrest was expunged because it's not a secret that Biden has had a lifelong drug problem -- it's well documented in reliable sources and he's discussed it himself. So it's not as though this would be damaging to his reputation more than what we already know, and that is what BLPCRIME is designed to prevent. Iamreallygoodatcheckers 02:56, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree, I think if better sources are available we can add it into the article. However, I do think because of the nature of expunged records, it is not very likely to have any fresh new additional reliable articles covering this topic. MaximusEditor (talk) 16:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Why was naming Hunter's daughter reverted?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Her name was several times in an article about (Redacted) in the New York Times! The name is absolutely public! Why then was it reverted? To help Joe and Hunter to deny her existence? —Menischt (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I will add another source which is not an op-ed. —Menischt (talk) 17:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Please don't name a non-notable minor per WP:BLPPRIVACY. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Her name is all over the internet! Hunters very young son Beau is also named, why not Navy Joan. By the way I did not give any postal addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for a living person. By the way, that she was born in August 2018 was in the article before. But I see, I seems several experienced Misplaced Pages user — most probably alerted through back lists — are teaming together to scare a user away with reverting and bombarding with arguments that do not apply in order to silence him. I'm curious if this will become a text book example for such a behavior. —Menischt (talk) 17:44, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Give me reasons here that apply, please! —Menischt (talk) 17:50, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:BLPNAME, the link I meant to share: The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject. The WP:ONUS is on you to show why we should include the name, which I see adding no value and potentially causing more harm to the individual. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:00, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder why highest ranking members of Misplaced Pages, even administrators like you, rush to the spot because of such a non-essential change. Highly important issues seem at stake, like – who knows – maybe the presidency of the United States, or why else all that? Why is Hunter's son Beau notable but his daughter Navy Joan is not? To redact her name out here is ridiculous since one can find her name and even pictures of her by just searching for the name of her mother in one minute. Misplaced Pages is dominated by left-leaning people, that's no secret, and left leaning people tent to do everything to protect "their" president and his son.

So please, explain to me why Hunter's son Beau is notable but his daughter Navy Joan is not? – Menischt (talk) 18:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

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