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	:I definitely agree that this seems sub-optimal. And I agree that Misplaced Pages should not shock users, and this likely would, at least to some minimal extent. It would be rather difficult to, other than manually, go through all 3 letter combinations and reorder suggestions to minimize "not safe for work" topics, and of course very controversial and hard to try to even do that. I'm going to read the link about how it works, just for my personal interest, but of course the suggestion of a phabricator ticking as a starting point is a good one.--] (]) 14:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)		:I definitely agree that this seems sub-optimal. And I agree that Misplaced Pages should not shock users, and this likely would, at least to some minimal extent. It would be rather difficult to, other than manually, go through all 3 letter combinations and reorder suggestions to minimize "not safe for work" topics, and of course very controversial and hard to try to even do that. I'm going to read the link about how it works, just for my personal interest, but of course the suggestion of a phabricator ticking as a starting point is a good one.--] (]) 14:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
			::Addendum: I did a couple of minutes of research by testing various three letter combinations that I thought might lead to swear words or otherwise offensive terms. I couldn't think of many off the top of my head so I looked for a list and found this somewhat amusing bit of research from Ofcom, the UK television (and soon, Internet) regulator: . While very UK centric, it does provide an amusing read, and could be useful to anyone who wants to give this matter serious consideration. I started out, per the report above, thinking about "mature" content, but this report led me to also think about terms that are insulting or derogatory. Misplaced Pages quite rightly has articles about these terms, they are part of the world and an encyclopedic article describing the terms and their history is valuable. It's not clear to me, though, that some of them are appropriate to suggest too early. (Obviously if you type enough letters, you'll get to them and that's fine.)--] (]) 14:37, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:37, 13 July 2023

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UK Online Safety Bill

I've just posted a long thread on twitter. I hope it is of interest to the community. Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:47, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm only interested in talk about this legislation
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Perhaps your thoughts would carry more weight if the WMF itself wasn't in the habit of abusing users data rights. Did the WMF ever share the dodgy dossier it collated on Fram before it accused them of harrassment? Or after? No. The WMF routinely gives access to PI to anonymous individuals with little oversight or auditing, who then abuse their advanced tools with article subjects and editors (you may want to pay attention to what the Italian admins and stewards are doing). Then of course there is the lack of financial transparency (tides), the safeguarding lapses (by what process did the WMF come out with that made it think it was a good idea to directly fund/grant a disgraced and banned from multiple projects editor, who amongst their other issues uploaded pornography of themselves and advocated the retention of pictures of clearly underage boys genitalia. Perhaps you should put that on next year's fundraising banner), the blatant trough sinecures for former staff etc etc. What you seem to be missing is that despite all its faults, the UK Online Safety Bill is a response to large tech (admittedly not Misplaced Pages) inaction or deliberate abuse (Cambridge analytics). Perhaps people might be less prone to support rigid legislation if corporations were not so abusive in the first place. The UKs legislative process has largely not changed for 100 years. Once a problem appears, industry is largely encouraged to self manage. If that doesn't work, light touch regulators and fines. If the problem still continues, then it's time to roll out the heavy guns of beurocracy and regulation. The Zuckerbergs and Musks failed to learn from other industries like manufacturing, construction, and banking before them. And this is the end result. In short, clean up your own house before pontificating on others. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC) Did you see Fram's behavior in general onwiki? In the last two weeks, he tried to get EEng banned from AN and ANI for... get this... having a sense of humor. It's a recurring thing, and it hasn't stopped, even since that WMF ban. Also, what I'm reading from your message is that you're in favor of the UK Online Safety Bill. Are you really thinking that this bill is a positive thing? It's the closest the UK is getting to censorship in ages. Supporting this bill is essentially supporting a dictatorship that can arrest people because they dared talk against the government. LilianaUwU 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC) You are describing WMF problems, not Jimbo problems. (Although Jimbo may have contributed to letting them become a largely self-appointed ivory tower.) But either way, your post is whataboutism and the real question is this particular piece of legislation. I only know it a bit, and that sounds like it is pretty bad and in direct conflict with how Misplaced Pages needs to operate. *North8000* (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm only interested in talk about this legislation

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Perhaps your thoughts would carry more weight if the WMF itself wasn't in the habit of abusing users data rights. Did the WMF ever share the dodgy dossier it collated on Fram before it accused them of harrassment? Or after? No. The WMF routinely gives access to PI to anonymous individuals with little oversight or auditing, who then abuse their advanced tools with article subjects and editors (you may want to pay attention to what the Italian admins and stewards are doing). Then of course there is the lack of financial transparency (tides), the safeguarding lapses (by what process did the WMF come out with that made it think it was a good idea to directly fund/grant a disgraced and banned from multiple projects editor, who amongst their other issues uploaded pornography of themselves and advocated the retention of pictures of clearly underage boys genitalia. Perhaps you should put that on next year's fundraising banner), the blatant trough sinecures for former staff etc etc.

What you seem to be missing is that despite all its faults, the UK Online Safety Bill is a response to large tech (admittedly not Misplaced Pages) inaction or deliberate abuse (Cambridge analytics). Perhaps people might be less prone to support rigid legislation if corporations were not so abusive in the first place. The UKs legislative process has largely not changed for 100 years. Once a problem appears, industry is largely encouraged to self manage. If that doesn't work, light touch regulators and fines. If the problem still continues, then it's time to roll out the heavy guns of beurocracy and regulation. The Zuckerbergs and Musks failed to learn from other industries like manufacturing, construction, and banking before them. And this is the end result.

In short, clean up your own house before pontificating on others. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:49, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Did you see Fram's behavior in general onwiki? In the last two weeks, he tried to get EEng banned from AN and ANI for... get this... having a sense of humor. It's a recurring thing, and it hasn't stopped, even since that WMF ban.

Also, what I'm reading from your message is that you're in favor of the UK Online Safety Bill. Are you really thinking that this bill is a positive thing? It's the closest the UK is getting to censorship in ages. Supporting this bill is essentially supporting a dictatorship that can arrest people because they dared talk against the government. LilianaUwU 16:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

You are describing WMF problems, not Jimbo problems. (Although Jimbo may have contributed to letting them become a largely self-appointed ivory tower.) But either way, your post is whataboutism and the real question is this particular piece of legislation. I only know it a bit, and that sounds like it is pretty bad and in direct conflict with how Misplaced Pages needs to operate. North8000 (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

It reminds me of an incident from 5 years ago. Roskomnadzor, a bunch of very bright and skilled fellows, got tired of blocking anime imageboards and decided to take on Telegram. 'Cause you know, how can you protect the Motherland from extremists, when you can't de-cipher what they are chatting about? When Telegram devs refused to give up encryption keys to censors, RKN-chan blew her top and decided to block the bastards. Due to her outstanding technical skills, a lot of major websites got down with blocked DNS's, while Telegram slipped the line.

The moral of that story: Online Safety Bill will "empower Ofcom to block access to particular websites". So Britons should prepare for a lot of collateral damage that will ensue when Ofcom will decide to take on something like Signal. a!rado🦈 (C✙T) 04:07, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: If Ofcom starts blocking sites, it will most likely use deep packet inspection technique. In this case, there's GoodbyeDPI utility, made in Russia with love (and other fluids). It circumvents DPI using some clever trick called WinDivert, not VPN/proxy, so it doesn't significantly slow down connection speed and WP users don't need WP:IPBE to edit with it on. Can be used as is, or can be optimized for ~~the UK~~ Airstrip One with something like "uk-blacklist.txt" added. a!rado🦈 (C✙T) 05:50, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Ofcom seeking evidence on what they need to do to provide UK government with advice: Call for evidence: categorisation - research and advice. Thincat (talk) 10:37, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a tragedy.

In Chinese Misplaced Pages, Bilibili, WeChat official account, Baijia account, China Universal Television, Guangming Daily, Sina Weibo have all been included in the "list of unreliable sources".If we judge whether a reference source is reliable only by political orientation, then the Wikimedia project has no future.Undoubtedly, this happened after September 2021.

When the Wikimedia Foundation claimed that the Chinese government should respect the "wiki model", did you ever think about the consequences of your involvement in this model?In July this year, the Wikimedia Foundation was once again prohibited from entering WIPO.This is a tragedy.

In the latest statement, Techyan said, "As long as users show support for the Chinese government, they will lose any opportunity to become administrators."I used to say that Misplaced Pages cannot enter China within 100 years, but in June this year, Qiwen opened for editing. Misplaced Pages already has a replacement, and 100 years may be forever.

In the past two years, the number of visitors to Chinese Misplaced Pages has dropped from nearly 700 million to less than 350 million. We all have to bear the consequences of political struggle.

A good encyclopedia, but not a good management team. Assifbus (talk) 03:25, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Reading 2021 Wikimedia Foundation actions on the Chinese Misplaced Pages and China blocks Wikimedia Foundation gave me some background. Thincat (talk) 09:25, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The tragedy is that an authoritarian state feels the need to curtail the flow of accurate information and the availability of knowledge to protect its own position. While the falling number of readers is unfortunate, at least what they are reading is at less risk of POV pushing to suit a particular political agenda. MarcGarver (talk) 11:53, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I and everyone else can see how obviously inferior 350 million actually getting information that holds to the values of Misplaced Pages is compared to 700 million people reading state propaganda that they were reading already. Definitely inferior. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Except that both those numbers appear to be made up out of thin air. There will always be a few who think that Misplaced Pages should compromise and agree to be censored by state actors, in order to gain access to a wider audience. I disagree and I think almost all Wikipedians disagree. Our principled stand makes it all the harder for other governments to put pressure on us.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Damnit, did I really need to put an /s? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I can ensure the authenticity of these two numbers. In July 2021, the number of visitors to Chinese Misplaced Pages reached the highest level in recent years. In April 2023, the number of visitors to Chinese Misplaced Pages will be less than 350 million.

Unfortunately, this template for viewing views was disabled in June of this year. This template shows the browsing volume of Chinese Misplaced Pages in Chinese Misplaced Pages. Displayed in English Misplaced Pages is the browsing volume of English Misplaced Pages, a very magical template. If you want, you can use it to see the views of all Wikimedia project.

Although this template is disabled, the most viewed page in Chinese Misplaced Pages in June this year was the lowest since records began. Assifbus (talk) 05:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Dunno about China but "If we judge whether a reference source is reliable only by political orientation" or the en Misplaced Pages version ""If we judge whether a reference source is reliable partially by political orientation" is a good cautionary note. North8000 (talk) 13:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

"In the past two years, the number of visitors to Chinese Misplaced Pages has dropped from nearly 700 million to less than 350 million." - all I can say to that is citation needed for both of those numbers. Misplaced Pages has been blocked in China since 4 years ago, so I don't think anything material has changed in the last 2 years. Sources in Misplaced Pages are not judged as reliable or not based on political orientation in any language version. To do so would be a serious violation of NPOV.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Search suggestions not optimal

Misplaced Pages's search suggestion engine seems like it could be better. If one types "Ana" into the search box, the first suggestion after Ana is Anal sex. It appears ahead of Anarchism, Anatomy, and Anatolia. Oddly, Ana de Armas has more daily views than any of these, yet is not shown. But in particular, seeing "anal sex" as the second suggestion here does not feel on par with industry leaders. I know Misplaced Pages is not censored, but we should also not MOS:SHOCK users, some of who are children. TarkusAB 02:04, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

While, per alphabet, this is
H I J K L M N O P Q R S T So anal sex maybe the first suggestion. -Lemonaka‎ 02:15, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that's how it works. Anabolic steroid is the 7th suggestion. TarkusAB 02:24, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Anaheim, California is the fourth! CMD (talk) 02:51, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

If anyone's curious, the details of the algorithm are described at mw:Help:CirrusSearch#Search suggestions. If someone wants to request a change to the algorithm or a change to problematic results, you'd probably want to create a ticket on Phabricator and tag it CirrusSearch. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 05:24, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you TarkusAB 06:31, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I definitely agree that this seems sub-optimal. And I agree that Misplaced Pages should not shock users, and this likely would, at least to some minimal extent. It would be rather difficult to, other than manually, go through all 3 letter combinations and reorder suggestions to minimize "not safe for work" topics, and of course very controversial and hard to try to even do that. I'm going to read the link about how it works, just for my personal interest, but of course the suggestion of a phabricator ticking as a starting point is a good one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Addendum: I did a couple of minutes of research by testing various three letter combinations that I thought might lead to swear words or otherwise offensive terms. I couldn't think of many off the top of my head so I looked for a list and found this somewhat amusing bit of research from Ofcom, the UK television (and soon, Internet) regulator: Attitudes to potentially offensive language and gestures on TV and radio Quick Reference Guide. While very UK centric, it does provide an amusing read, and could be useful to anyone who wants to give this matter serious consideration. I started out, per the report above, thinking about "mature" content, but this report led me to also think about terms that are insulting or derogatory. Misplaced Pages quite rightly has articles about these terms, they are part of the world and an encyclopedic article describing the terms and their history is valuable. It's not clear to me, though, that some of them are appropriate to suggest too early. (Obviously if you type enough letters, you'll get to them and that's fine.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:37, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Category:

Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press