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Revision as of 06:46, 20 August 2023 editSurtsicna (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users131,106 edits →Family tree instead of ahnentafel ← Previous edit		Revision as of 06:48, 20 August 2023 edit undoSurtsicna (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users131,106 edits →Family tree instead of ahnentafel Next edit →
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	:*'''Support''' - for this & all monarch/consort bios. ] (]) 04:16, 20 August 2023 (UTC)		:*'''Support''' - for this & all monarch/consort bios. ] (]) 04:16, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Revision as of 06:48, 20 August 2023

The contents of the Sophie of France (1786–1787) page were merged into Marie Antoinette on 20 November 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Sophie of France (1786–1787) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 19 September 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Marie Antoinette. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023

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"As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court; as for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic in spite of the fact that she gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. In spite of her very ample proportions, Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor."

Change to: As a result of all these fashion activities, Marie Antoinette presided over one of the most important and fashionable courts in history and she was dominant over all of the other ladies of the court. As for her bearing and appearance the queen was very majestic and charismatic. She gained a lot of weight over the years due to her many pregnancies. Marie Antoinette represented and played the role of the queen better than anyone in her court with her grace and demeanor. 89.19.79.27 (talk) 10:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

So you basically propose to delete "In spite of her very ample proportions ...". I agree, this is insensitive and fat-shaming. PatGallacher (talk) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I feel like that whole section above could be deleted. While I'm certainly not an expert on Marie Antoinette, I can't see how talking about her 'bearing' is relevant in the slightest - if this is somehow relevant and I'm simply missing context please do correct me though. This section was added all at once with no other content, and the editor who inserted it also made this edit - SeriousHist, would you mind explaining why this content is important? Tollens (talk) 04:14, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I have decided to be bold and delete the offending phrase. More serious changes may merit discussion. PatGallacher (talk) 06:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello I simply added the impact of Marie Antoinette on her court and the fashion of her days ; Marie Antoinette life was affected deeply first by her fashion impact ; she was a model in fashion who was followed in all Europe . In addition this was a very important political issue with time , the people of France began to turn on their queen because of her lifestyle and this affected her popularity leading to the French Revolution. If you read any book on Marie Antoinette this was a very important issue for her before the birth of her children. Frankly a controversy over an issue who defined 20 years of the queen life : she was called the queen of fashion in spite that she gained a lot of ample proportions ; I’am simply describing the historical fact and not fat-shaming her but glorifying her as the queen of fashion in history despite her fat (fat is beautiful if you want ) ; but that is not the crux of the matter, it is one line in a whole paragraph. We can’t judge people who live 200 years ago according to our modern standards; their ideas were different than us . This is not an ideological article but an historical one SeriousHist (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC) To have consensus I agree to the change already made and I hope we can all work together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 16:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC) European History is my speciality ; this article is good but It need some sources who are missing. To see how I work I saw in the article of another important queen Elizabeth Tudor that the establishment of the first colony in North America is not mentioned and the fondation of the Eastern Company for India ; I added both ; here I saw the same problem; a major fact of Marie Antoinette life and impact was missing. Thank you all. SeriousHist (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.thecollector.com/marie-antoinette-controversial-fashion-queen/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 17:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.itsbeyondmycontrol.com/18th-century-fashion-marie-antoinette-the-queen-of-haute-couture/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 17:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/history-magazine/article/daily-life-france-fashion-marie-antoinette — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeriousHist (talk • contribs) 17:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC) SeriousHist (talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.savoirflair.com/fashion/100411/marie-antoinette-inspired-runway-collections SeriousHist (talk) 17:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC) In conclusion I added important new sources here to show the impact of that subject in Marie Antoinette life . This was a very important feature who defined her life for more than a decade with a massive social , political and cultural impact felt all over the world for a long period of time. I think it is worth a new paragraph who should be added to the article. Also it is very important to diversify the sources in that article who depend heavily on Fraser ( A great historian but who should not be the only or even major source of her life ). Thank you all. SeriousHist (talk) 17:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done: removing from edit request backlog until there's a clearer consensus about what changes to make. (My unsolicited opinion is that if any of the material is to remain, it be rewritten to be more encyclopedic and with inline attribution to Fraser as he is apparently the sole source of it.) Xan747 (talk) 19:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

RFC: Ancestry

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus to include the ancestry section. (non-admin closure) Tol (talk | contribs) @ 20:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I proposed the inclusion of {{ahnentafel}} in "ancestry" section (with reliable and non-trivial sources, but only can extend to great-grandparents) for this article, which had been removed last 25 October 2019, and another one in 22 May 2020, for these names of the subject's great-great-grandparents are trivial, but Misplaced Pages is not a genealogy database.

Ancestors of Marie Antoinette

8. Charles V, Duke of Lorraine

4. Leopold, Duke of Lorraine

9. Eleonore of Austria

2. Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor

10. Philippe I, Duke of Orléans

5. Élisabeth Charlotte of Orléans

11. Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate

1. Marie Antoinette

12. Leopold I, Holy Roman Emperor

6. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor

13. Eleonore Magdalene of Neuburg

3. Maria Theresa of Austria

14. Louis Rudolph, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel

7. Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick

15. Christine Louise of Oettingen-Oettingen

2001:4451:824F:B700:10CD:87C9:EEE7:A19C (talk) 07:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Support inclusion I don't see how this is trivia. Genealogy is important for the understanding of the interconnectedness of European states at the time. And given how Marie Antoinette ended it is also relevant to reactions of other states to the French revolution. Also a lot of articles have these and I believe that a lot of people expect this information to be available in the article. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 14:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Support For reasons above. I dont think the information is trivial, especially for someone of Marie Antionettes status. EmilySarah99 (talk) 00:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Support inclusion Genealogy is not trivia, it is a core element of history. Dimadick (talk) 02:55, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Support inclusion, genealogy of members of ruling houses isn't trivia, but an important piece of information.Marcelus (talk) 07:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Support inclusion. Genealogy is central to understanding historic European royals and their interests. If this was an article about some scientist or popstar then we might dismiss their hitherto-unknown grandparents as trivia, but when they're Holy Roman Emperors, and when that ancestry led directly to Marie Antoinette's role in life (and her notability), that would be foolish. bobrayner (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Support The genealogy of nobles and royal families is significant. On the other hand, I don't have an informed opinion about this template in particular. --Macrakis (talk) 21:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Support From the genealogical WikiProject page: "While Misplaced Pages is not and never was intended as a genealogy software, this area may still be further improved. Nearly all royalty articles include a section of brief ancestry, as well as a list of spouse(s) and issue." Seems to me that Marie Antoinette can indisputably claim generational data on her page. Pistongrinder (talk) 22:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Comment Can the ancestry table can be referenced with reliable sources? I have my doubts about Mathieu Delaunay's(author of the source presented by the IP), reliability. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
This 18th-century genealogy book Genealogie ascendante jusqu'au quatrieme degre inclusivement de tous les Rois et Princes de maisons souveraines de l'Europe actuellement vivans has been outdated, and replace with a recent version of Les ancêtres de Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche (see above). 2001:4451:8285:B00:4161:DF21:E022:9C70 (talk) 12:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Support, I think it would be useful and not trivial.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:26, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Les ancêtres de Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche (in French). Paris: Editions généalogique de la Voûte. 2006. ISBN 9782847663266.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Last Words

The source for Marie Antoinette's last words on this article is a clickbait listicle which gives no source. I have tracked this quote down to Marie Antoinette: The Journey (2001), by Antonia Frasier (ISBN-13: 9780385489492), p. 580. No source is given in the book itself for this quote, which I find distressing considering how pervasive these supposed last words have become. In the Memoirs of the Sansons, Vol. II (1876), by Henri Sanson (ISBN-13: 978-1172710188), p. 56, Henri Sanson records the last words of Marie Antoinette as "Farewell, my children; I am going to join your father."

I see no reason why an unsourced quote in a random online article should be allowed as a valid source. And even beyond that, I see no reason why an unsourced quote written in a book over 200 years after the death of Marie Antoinette occurred is allowed to persist at all on Misplaced Pages as the purported last words of such a significant historical figure. Fraser's book is a tertiary source (and that is a generous evaluation on my part) which contains no reference whatsoever to any contemporary recordings of this quote. Henri Sanson's records are a secondary source that draw from the diary and notes of Charles-Henri Sanson, the man who put Antoinette to death himself, and his own experiences on the scaffold during the First French Republic. The conclusion I have come to many months after first discovering this discrepancy is that the last words of Antoinette currently on this article are a balatant fabrication by Fraser. Past that, Fraser's book is not even cited on this article. From where does "thoughtcatalogue.com" get any credence? The article on that site does not reference any sources at all. Anyone with a lick of experience on the internet can see that this "Famous Last Words" article was designed from the ground up to only draw in ad revenue.

The currently listed last words of Antoinette do garner a lot of sympathy, but it is unjustifiably gained. As Sanson relates in the memoirs, any real sympathy should come from the fact that this woman was forced into her position as queen and lost her husband and all of her children within such a short period of time. But that is enough for me, and I see no reason why clearly fabricated last words should be used to bring her any more sympathy than the awful circumstances of her life should evoke in any human. Ct00 (talk) 07:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Family tree instead of ahnentafel

While everyone, including me, is in agreement that genealogy is relevant, I question the choice of information presented here. Biographies of Marie Antoinette abound, and a survey of those cited in the article shows that they do not present genealogy in the form of an ahnentafel. Instead they use charts that include siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins, and illustrate Marie Antoinette's relationship to Louis XVI and the French royal family. Therefore I propose replacing the ahnentafel with a chart modelled after those found in the biographies of Marie Antoinette. Surtsicna (talk) 02:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is an example modelled after the family tree from Fraser's biography of Marie Antoinette:

Family tree after Fraser, illustrating the Bourbon-Habsburg-Lorraine connections