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Revision as of 12:57, 31 March 2005

This template must be substituted. Replace {{Requested move ...}} with {{subst:Requested move ...}}. It seems to me that the theatre building section of this page should be moved to it's own section and expanded, leaving this page to discuss only theatre as an institution, types of theatre, etc. Any thoughts? Ganymead 07:27, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Makes sense. Let's move this article to "Theatre", and then the theater building section to "Theater building" or "Theatre building". As far as the spelling is concerned, as in the recent "Grey"-move, the spelling widely used and accepted in both U.S. and Commonwealth English is "theatre". Nobbie 16:57, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The only thing I would suggest is that instead of "Theatre building" we list it as "Theatre (structure)". Ganymead 19:47, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An unlogged person with no edit history on their IP has made substantial cuts. I am not going to revert at this point, because I basically agree that the list of playwrights has no place on this page, but I would have liked to have known if that list, which various people put some time into has been moved anywhere else. (It is still in the history here, of course). As soon as I get some time (ha ha) I hope to sit down and sketch out a structure for this complex topic. Not easy when you consider that there are 1000+ page encyclopedias dedicated to theatre alone. If anyone is willing to help on this, pop along to my talk page. Dramatic 23:50, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Feel free to revise it, but for now I have reverted the edit, it looks like vandalism, even the interlanguage links etc. have been deleted. - Patrick 00:33, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What are our priorities for writing in this area? To help develop a list of the most basic topics about theater, please see theater basic topics.

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Responding to an edit comment:

'Dramaturge' seems to mean 'playwright or adapter', according to my dictionary. Does anyone know if this word is actually in common use in the theatre world, or is it a pretentious usage, along the lines of 'auteur'?

-- The Anome

Pretentious usage, I'm afraid. Playwright or author are far more down-to-earth. -- Derek Ross

A dramaturg these days is a person charged with providing scads and scads of information surrounding the play--character development stuff, events mentioned, authors life details, whatever is necessary for actors and designers

--Bruce Cooper

I am, in real actual life, a professional Dramaturge, and the current article under the topic is a strikingly accurate description of exactly what I do, so all is good. A lot of theatres these days have dramaturges on staff; but the use meaning simply "playwright" is antiquated. BarkingDoc

Theatre or Theater

My understanding of the difference between the two lies in the variance between British and N.A. spelling, as is the case of center vs. center and metre vs. meter, among many others. As far as I know, the correct, persnickety spelling of theater in the U.S. should, therefore, be 'theater'--in all instances, whether referring to a physical space or the art itself.

I have always understood that in a bid to sound 'legitimate' many American theaters have changed their spelling to conform to the British standard--because, let's face it, American theater suffers from an inferiority complex when it comes to our transatlantic neighbors' output.

I leave it to you to determine whether this distinction is worth preserving.

• The info I've found suggests that it was only Webster who wanted to spell it 'theater'. Most professionals seem to prefer 'theatre' for the art and 'theater' for the building - I've changed the article to try to reflect this.

As even the Canadians use "Theatre" rather than "Theater" and most of the articles related to this topic use the former spelling, any objections to moving this article? Mintguy 10:25 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)

• The bottom line truth seems to be that both are correct, and I think if there is a redirect it doesn't matter much. Those in the profession theatre in America also usually use the "re" spelling. I have been told lately by many people that the meaning that is taking hold is that "Theatre" refers to the craft, and "theater" refers to the physical building. I don't have any real reference to back that up, though. BarkingDoc

• I was fixing some other links, and saw that the "theater/theatre" thing was inconsistent in the article -- sometimes within the same paragraph! Since the article's named "Theater" and the first few paragraphs used it that way, I arbitrarily changed them all to that spelling. Feel free to change it the other way if you decide otherwise. (Don't just revert, though -- I caught a few other spelling/grammatical errors.)  :) Catherine 06:20 Mar 11, 2003 (UTC)

• From a lot of internet discussion with American theatre professionals, I have seen a wide and quite vehement support that the correct american spelling for live theatre is "re", and that "theater" implies cinema and burlesque only, and is used with negative connotations. However, some publishers stick to their style manuals and use "er". This suggests that completely moving the article and reversing the redirect would be the preferred option. Dramatic 11:09 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

• I vote theatre. Not just because I'm British, but because it seems that is the most wideley accepted spelling. There should be a standard for the whole of wikipedia though... if this is an international encyclopaedia sureley International English would be more appropriate? Then again the time is shown as US and wikipedia is spelt US. (ricjl 14:49, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC))

I moved this article back to "theater". That's where is was before and we have a policy to respect all forms of grammatically correct English. That means we don't move one form to another and don't change spellings in articles. Otherwise I'll move sport to sports and aeroplane to airplane. --mav

• Someone already moved aeroplane to airplane. From the above discussion I get the impression that theatre is the word used by American theatre professionals.
• It looks like it was merged with Aircraft. I find the profession (re) and building (er) distinction to be an interesting way to disambiguate these two topics. --mav

"Most professionals seem to prefer 'theatre' for the art and 'theater' for the building" This is the way I have learned to use the term. My theatre professor explained this is the common usage. (We fine arts majors have to take nine credits in the subject =o) The art is always refered to as "Theatre" in the US by professionals. Even the currently listed external link on the subject varifies this. Almost all respected books on the subject use theatre. This isn't a grammatical issue. I'd recommend that this either goes to Misplaced Pages:Requested moves or we vote here. I'm not going to start the vote, but if some takes that initiative on either recommendation, please hit my talk page. --Sketchee 19:30, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

This article focuses on two main topics: theatre as an 'art' and theater as a 'building'. Since the former (the art of 'theatre') is much more important, I'd think it would be more appropriate to move the article to 'theatre'. Any thoughts?

(Above comment is by 202.32.53.44)

Maybe we should split the difference and put one on Theatre and the other on Theater. We'd have to add a section citing usage on the two terms on each though.--Sketchee 15:35, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

That's a interesting idea. Very interesting from a linguistical viewpoint. But would that approach be tolerated, I wonder? 202.32.3.211 08:50, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The diff function seems to be acting up - I nearly reverted fuzhedo's revert to an earlier version still because the diff made it look as though every spelling had been changed to -er. The current mixture is in line with W policy and does point out the disagreement on the topic. dramatic 08:59, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Drama is not a branch of theatre. Theatre is a branch of drama. I think both articles on drama and theatre should be reviewed and interlink closer.

Not redundant.

There's a note at the top: "dramatic literature (redundant, unless someone can give this a different approach than play".

I'm not much of a writer, so I can't do this, but to me Dramatic Literature encompasses the body of work that is dramatic and theatrical criticism, experimental work (such as Boal's stuff), theoretical works, and historical writing, both critical and theoretical.

Requested move to Theatre

• Theater → Theatre — As in the recent Grey-move, "theatre" is accepted in both U.S. and Commonweath English, whereas theater is an accepted spelling only in the U.S. It was suggested to split the article into "Theatre" for the art and a new article "Theatre building" for the building. Nobbie 17:06, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation and sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support - "Theatre" will focus on the art. The spelling is internationally recognized and in line with the spelling already used in the article. (added: this is NOT about changing the spelling of the whole article! Only the word "theatre". The article will remain written in U.S. English.) Nobbie 17:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose - Leave it alone Primary Author used US spelling. Philip Baird Shearer 00:41, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support - (Oft considered proposing this myself) 'Primary author' policy mostly refers to content, not titles, AFAIK. Niteowlneils 02:15, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support - similar votes on usenet have always opted for theatre - with good support from the US theatre community. dramatic 02:17, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support - as far as I am aware, "theatre" is an alternative spelling throughout North America, and the only spelling elsewhere in the English-speaking world. The principle of least astonishment, and the principle that we should put articles where most international readers would expect to find them is appropriate here, jguk 10:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose First major contributor used "theater," and that spelling gets seven million more Google hits than "theatre." SlimVirgin 18:31, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)
• Support --Spinboy 19:38, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support —ExplorerCDT 08:41, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Having worked in theater, I'm well aware that the -re spelling is common among the artists especially (less so by staff and crew), but it's a consciously "archaic" form used in the name of tradition, as with "upstage" and "green room." Industry lingo does not equate to what's acceptable in American English writing, and the original author—presumably knowledgable in the field—used the -er spelling in this relatively formal context. Retitle this article and you have to replace all occurences of the American form in that's clearly an AE-dominant article, contrary to policy. A.D.H. (t&m) 09:15, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are enough BE vs. AE wars brewing. People will use this move as an example, just as the much more complicated Grey move was inappropriately used here. --A D Monroe III 15:29, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support. I'm from the U.S., an I don't see this as an AE vs. BE issue at all. Many of my friends in Theatre prefer that spelling. Jonathunder 22:58, 2005 Mar 27 (UTC)
• Support. As a theatRE person I must support the move. As well as the proposed split of structure from this article to move to it's own under "Theatre (structure)". Ganymead 00:32, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Support. From what I gather, "theatre" is not only the international spelling (for art & bldg), but also the spelling used by theatre professionals in the US for their art and "theater" for the actual structure, even though "theatre" is sometimes used in the names of some theatre bldgs in the US. – AxSkov 08:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Theatre is used everywhere, theater only in the U.S. In fact, in the U.S. theatre community, theatre is preferred! Not only for the art, but also for buildings (for example movie theatres). Have a close look at the following interesting (U.S.) links: , , , .
I don't like Google searches to "prove" usage of words, but searching for theatre and theater (on English websites only!) might suprise you... Nobbie 03:56, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

'Primary author' policy mostly refers to content, not titles, AFAIK. Niteowlneils 02:15, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Then explain Talk:Honour#Move to Honor and Talk:Color#Page move (not done). Sticking to what is there already reduces conflict --Philip Baird Shearer 10:34, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't think you can cite either of the above as the status quo reducing conflict. I would have supported both the above decisions. Honour for the reason that it already had the more widespread spelling, and color because that spelling is now ingrained in a number of international standards. Each case needs to be judged on its merits. And in this case, kepping the status quo is fuelling conflict. dramatic 00:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree, but the "theatre" case is different. "color" is wrong or at least unusual in Commonwealth English, and "honour" is wrong/quaint in U.S. English. "Theatre" is acceptable everywhere. In the MoS it says somewhere that neutral words should be chosen in reasonable/possible. Nobbie 12:14, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I guess I would say A) some of the voters interpret the MOS differently than I do (most of the section cited is talking specifically about text within the article, so, since it doesn't specifically mention article names, I don't think it was intended to cover them) and, probably more to the point, B) apparently 'requested moves' voting can be as fickle as Vfd voting. Niteowlneils 01:24, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

First major contributor used "theater," and that spelling gets seven million more Google hits than "theatre." SlimVirgin 18:31, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

There are plenty of cases in Misplaced Pages where the first major contibutor's title has been changed to a more commonly accepted title. And your Google stats are false. Take out non-english sites and the numbers are equal. After that you need to remove all references to the surgical/operation context of the word and the military term 'theater of operations' (and American coinage) dramatic 22:53, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC).

Actually we have no evidence of which spelling the first major contributor preferred, as the history of the article doesn't go back that far. Who's to say the first major contributor wasn't expanding a substub or dicdef? dramatic 08:31, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You could also search in .com domains only, which are U.S. dominated, + English only. On 42% of the pages, "theatre" is used, which is about the same percentage as for "grey". Clear evidence that both spellings are accepted in the U.S. Nobbie

Having worked in theater, I'm well aware that the -re spelling is common among the artists especially (less so by staff and crew), but it's a consciously "archaic" form used in the name of tradition, as with "upstage" and "green room." Industry lingo does not equate to what's acceptable in American English writing, and the original author—presumably knowledgable in the field—used the -er spelling in this relatively formal context. Retitle this article and you have to replace all occurences of the American form in that's clearly an AE-dominant article, contrary to policy. A.D.H. (t&m) 09:15, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

It's true that theater is more common in U.S. English and can be considered the "usual" spelling. However, that's not the point. It a fact that theatre is an acceptable spelling in the U.S. and everywhere else, whereas theater is not acceptable outside the U.S. Therefore, theatre has a more neutral touch. And by the way, the majority of spellings in the article are theatre, so what about "replacing all occurences of the American form"?! Nobbie 09:40, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am interested in what those people who are voting in favour of this move Theater to Theatre, think about moving the article Theater (warfare) to Theater if the first move goes ahead. It would seem to me that there would no longer be any reason not to as it is being argued that Theatre is widely used in the US to mean "art, but also for buildings". If this seems daft, then perhaps those who have voted in support of the move from theater to theatre should re-consider their vote Philip Baird Shearer 14:30, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You highlight an inconsistency, and I agree it would be best to avoid it. Wouldn't the easiest way be to move Theater (warfare) to Theatre (warfare) though? jguk 18:05, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No Primary author. Theatre and Theater are used in specific articles on national interest lines EG: Middle East Theatre of World War II, Mediterranean Theater of Operations. Philip Baird Shearer 11:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Any questions regarding Theater (warfare) can best be dealt with by the old warriors out there. --Dhodges 19:04, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the name Theater (warfare) is fine. The typical meaning of theatre is the meaning described in Theater. No matter what the spelling, both theater and theatre should refer to that article. Theater (warfare) is much more specific; including "(warfare)" in the article name makes sense. In the current article, "theatre" is used for the art and "theater" for the building. It was proposed to create a separate article for the building section, which should probably use "theater". This would lead to: an article "Theatre" on the art of theatre, an article "Theater (structure)", and "Theater (warfare)". Nobbie 02:16, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But if you have an article called "theater" for the building then that will be wrong for all Commonwealth countries. I think that would be throwing the baby with the bathwater. What would be the redirect for Commonwealth counties "theatre (building)" it so then why not "theater (building)"? If one accepts that the primary usage for "theater" in the US is the same as "theatre" in the rest of the English speaking world there is no reason to get into such a mess. Philip Baird Shearer 11:25, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's by no means a "mess". I noticed that theatre is used for the art section and theater for the building section in this article. That's why I suggested "Theater (stucture)" and "Theatre" for the main article that covers the art of theatre. Theater may by primary usage in the U.S. but theatre is very common as well and often even preferred. The article split into art and structure was proposed by Ganymead, it doesn't have anything to do with spelling. Nobbie 12:57, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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