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| :Are there any standards out there to recommend? Otherwise we should continue to follow the sources, as in the above examples. ] 07:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC) | :Are there any standards out there to recommend? Otherwise we should continue to follow the sources, as in the above examples. ] 07:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC) | ||
| ::There are definitely standards out there, although none have an overwhelming majority usage and one of the bigger problems is that the majority of speakers don’t know it. But it’s not exactly like the majority of English speakers follow MOS either, so I feel like that could be worked around. At the very least we could add something on identifying whether a source is in Cantonese, as opposed to an archaic name that might need to be changed to a pinyin transliteration. ] (]) 15:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC) | ::There are definitely standards out there, although none have an overwhelming majority usage and one of the bigger problems is that the majority of speakers don’t know it. But it’s not exactly like the majority of English speakers follow MOS either, so I feel like that could be worked around. At the very least we could add something on identifying whether a source is in Cantonese, as opposed to an archaic name that might need to be changed to a pinyin transliteration. ] (]) 15:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC) | ||
| :::Re Cantonese, as much as I don’t like it personally, the tendency is to move towards Jyutping, judging from its usage in dictionaries and language teaching materials. ] (]) 22:04, 3 September 2023 (UTC) | |||
| == Spacing/determining word boundaries == | == Spacing/determining word boundaries == | ||
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New section - Historical names
Since it seems like there is some consensus (excepting Mjroots) about what the policy here is/should be, but that perhaps it isn't entirely clear based on what's written now, I propose adding a new section. Here's a draft:
- "Articles should use the pinyin version of historical names unless the clear majority of modern sources do otherwise. This applies even when contemporary English sources on a topic used a different romanization system. For example, older sources romanized "Fuzhou" in a variety of ways, such as "Foochow", "Fuchow", and "Foo-Chow". But because the consensus of modern sources is to use Fuzhou, so does Misplaced Pages. Using pinyin does not necessarily mean to always use the WP:MODERNPLACENAME. Use the pinyin version of the period-accurate placename: "Chang'an", not "Xi'an" when talking about the capital of the Tang Dynasty. The same goes for cities that changed their names at a time when a different romanization system was popular among Western sources. For example, Beijing was known as "Beiping" between 1928-1949, at which time the name was romanized as "Peiping". References to the city during these years should be to "Beiping" or "Beijing", but not to Peiping.
- The same rules apply to the naming of historical individuals as for living persons. That said, note that non-pinyin versions of a name should only be used if that spelling has been adopted by the majority of secondary sources. For example, Wang Jingwei was known as "Wang Ching-wei" during his lifetime, but because the majority of modern secondary sources refer to him using the pinyin spelling, so does Misplaced Pages. On the other hand, "Chiang Kai-shek" is used over "Jiang Jieshi" because the former is far more widespread.
- Common exceptions include where a name is especially famous in English using a different romanization (e.g., "Tongmenghui"), or where the romanization is of a language other than Mandarin (e.g., "Alfred Sao-ke Sze"). Moreover, even if historians use the pinyin version of a place name (e.g., "Nanjing"), a different spelling might be prevalent for a certain derived name (e.g., "Treaty of Nanking"). When in doubt, go with the name used by the majority of modern historians."
Thoughts? I've also linked to the above thread on a couple other discussion boards to attract more input. SilverStar54 (talk) 01:26, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- It is out of place on this page, which contains guidelines for choosing titles of articles. The above deals with use of names within articles, a topic already covered by WP:PINYIN, which already says pretty much what you want. At the most, all that is needed is a few more words in WP:PINYIN saying that it applies even for historical articles. Kanguole 09:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link! I will move this suggestion there. SilverStar54 (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- Concur with Kanguole. NC pages are not about in-article content. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link! I will move this suggestion there. SilverStar54 (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Standardised Cantonese/Hakka romanisation
The article heavily focuses on the use of Mandarin to romanise Chinese characters and phrases, but there is no real guideline (aside from "follow what the sources say") as to the romanisation of other Sinitic languages. While there has been ample and lively discussion on this talk page and others about the scope of names that should be romanised with each language (which is still a constantly ongoing tug of war because of the inherent hyperpoliticisation), I don't see any real discussion about the standards of such, the way Mandarin transliteration is elaborated on. Even aside from the raw pronounciation, there are some differences in transliteration conventions in Cantonese and Mandarin (which is the example I'll stick to on basis of personal knowledge), e.g.:
- Cantonese names tend to use a hyphen (Kwok Fu-shing) vs Mandarin names that tend to concatenate given name (Xi Jinping)
- Cantonese transliterations lean towards spacing by character (Sai Yeung Choi South Street) vs Mandarin spacing by phrase/word (Zhongshan Road)
Therefore, I feel like an alternative description of Cantonese or Hakka transliteration scheme also deserves a place in the guide. And if someone knows sufficient Taishanese, Shanghaiese, etc to make a separate transliteration guide for that, that would be very welcome too. Alternatively, I feel like a better option might be to split this article into a disambig that redirects to three or four different transliteration guides for the various Sinitic languages commonly needed to be transliterated. Fermiboson (talk) 11:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Are there any standards out there to recommend? Otherwise we should continue to follow the sources, as in the above examples. Kanguole 07:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are definitely standards out there, although none have an overwhelming majority usage and one of the bigger problems is that the majority of speakers don’t know it. But it’s not exactly like the majority of English speakers follow MOS either, so I feel like that could be worked around. At the very least we could add something on identifying whether a source is in Cantonese, as opposed to an archaic name that might need to be changed to a pinyin transliteration. Fermiboson (talk) 15:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Re Cantonese, as much as I don’t like it personally, the tendency is to move towards Jyutping, judging from its usage in dictionaries and language teaching materials. Pentaxem (talk) 22:04, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- There are definitely standards out there, although none have an overwhelming majority usage and one of the bigger problems is that the majority of speakers don’t know it. But it’s not exactly like the majority of English speakers follow MOS either, so I feel like that could be worked around. At the very least we could add something on identifying whether a source is in Cantonese, as opposed to an archaic name that might need to be changed to a pinyin transliteration. Fermiboson (talk) 15:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Spacing/determining word boundaries
I propose that after the sentence "Pinyin is spaced according to words, not characters", we should add a link to the section of the pinyin article explaining how to determine word boundaries. The rules on when to combine words/when not to combine them are a bit complicated. SilverStar54 (talk) 03:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
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