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On 19 September 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Requested move 19 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Leaning not moved. Noting that this should've been speedy not moved per WP:SK#6. No prejudice against a split discussion, but keep SK6 in mind. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE /_{STUFF DONE} 15:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Hardeep Singh Nijjar → Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar – This recently deceased person appears to notable for his death and the aftermath and is therefore a WP:BLP1E. The article being created posthumously I believe is evidence of this. The scope of the article should therefore be on the death and aftermath, not of the person, which is liable (and has already been) WP:ATTACKed by POV-pushers. Move to "Death/Killing/Murder/Assassination of ..." (not fussed over the wording). ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney Support - per nom. MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 18:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose There seems to have been a reasonable amount of coverage of Nijjar before his murder going back to 2016 so I’m not sure if BLP1E applies. Here are some examples: There is also a larger amount of coverage in Indian sources which, to me, often don’t seen reliable but demonstrate wider notability before his murder. Vladimir.copic (talk) 18:29, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if many Indian sources on this subject could be reliable given the sensitivity of the issue. Regardless, people are primarily searching for his name on the internet because of the diplomatic row his death has caused. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:46, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course people are Googling this more now because of the murder. My point is that Nijjar, and to a certain extent the diplomatic row around him, was notable before the murder and therefore isn’t BLP1E which is the argument for moving the article. I’ve provided four non-Indian sources demonstrating this from a very quick Google. Vladimir.copic (talk) 18:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, large number of sources covering Nijjar before his death, and per CapnJackSp. 🔥Jalapeño🔥 06:28, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Too soon to create a separate article. Also I am not convinced with the POV-pushing examples given by the nominator.

Can you give us examples of attacks by POV-pushers? Wrythemann (talk) 18:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  19:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

How is that POV pushing? CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah - we now have the New York Times stating the same. Not POV. Wrythemann (talk) 23:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  19:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

This seems borderline. If you read the source provided it does allude to this. Wrythemann (talk) 23:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - He isnt just notable for the death, he has featured in quite a few wanted lists earlier also and was a known separatist leader. Coverage of this exists, and so BLP 1E isnt valid in this case. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:03, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose If anything would made, the thing should have been made would be separate pages as Hardeep Singh Nijjar by himself with his past life has enough encyclopedic information to make an entire page while his assassination, death and investigation of this crime scene is an entire different set of information. Cactus Ronin (talk) 19:07, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• Speedy close as moot; I have created Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  19:08, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - He seems to be a notable figure in the Khalistan movement prior to his death. Ironically, that seems to be what made him a target for assassination. Riposte97 (talk) 23:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I have my doubts that it's even possible to expand the biography aspects of this article beyond a stub, if this article is not renamed and content is instead split into Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  02:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

In any case, it may be prudent to wait a while, as I expect a great deal will be written about him in WP:RS in the days to come. Riposte97 (talk) 05:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom and to cleanly separate notability problems. The notability of Nijjar apart from his death does not yet have a clear consensus (and is being debated in this very RfM), but there is clear consensus that Nijjar's death is notable. Let this article be about the consensus notable subject that prompted it to be created. If that makes room for an article on Nijjar himself then that’s good: let a consensus on the notability of Nijjar himself be determine by editors of an article about him. Moving this article will vastly simplify the difficulties of editors determining how to apply BLP appropriately. Since this article falls also under contentious topic sanctions, more clarity on how to apply policies will support the two goals of avoiding disruption to Misplaced Pages and off producing a quality article. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@GhostOfDanGurney Come on, I mean Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar is just a classic WP:CONTENTFORK… It gives no real additional information and isn’t needed at this stage. Maybe this needs a stand alone in the future but right now - no way. Vladimir.copic (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I believe there is information than can be moved from this article to the other. Or you can otherwise expend it. I'm late for work now, though. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  19:42, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Soft Support - He seems best known for his death and murder, and the resulting international relations crisis. I note that the article was created two days after his death, not while he was living. That said, I could be convinced that he was notable prior to his death if shown significant coverage in WP:RS pre-dating his death on June 18, 2023.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose seems to me that WP:BLP1E doesn't apply here. I suspect there's already plenty of source material for an article about him. See eg Alexander Litvinenko who was low profile before his poisoning/death. We also have an article Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. Whether the current murder will become such a massive story is difficult to tell. Nigej (talk) 07:15, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress; lots of articles on notable subjects have not been created yet. There are plenty of RS available covering the subject independent of his death. VQuakr (talk) 18:45, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  There are four sources above as noted by Vladimir.copic. I am not sure those alone amount to WP:SIGCOV. Are there other RS you think we should be considering to demonstrate notability as distinct from his death? Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support as per nomination Worldiswide (talk) 02:52, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Hardeep Singh Nijjar had reasonable coverage before his murder going back to 2016 in both Indian and international news, as he was involved in many controversial activities before his death, including links to violent activities in India; and his public anti-India speeches in Canada. It seems to be a RACIST argument that WHITE Western Newspapers are Reliable and BROWN INDIAN Newspapers are Not Reliable. Anyone following Indian news knows that India has a respected Press and News media, which regularly criticizes the Ruling party on many issues. IT IS SAD that such an argument is even being put on Misplaced Pages. Disagree with GhostOfDanGurney on changing the title. Agree with Vladimir.copic that there was coverage even in Western media, which along with Indian media satisfies NOTABILITY and WIDE COVERAGE factors to keep the Current title.RogerYg (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that the title should not be changed, but let's assume good faith. An anonymous username, not my real name 11:06, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

  What are you talking about? The four sources mentioned above which predate his death are Canadian or American. I asked above if there are other sources which demonstrate his notability before his death. If there are others you think we should consider, provide them. Of course we will consider them regardless of whether they are Canadian, American, Indian or British, etc...-- Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 12:53, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Hardeep Singh Nijjar was notable during his lifetime, and the absence of a Misplaced Pages article until his death does not diminish his notability. He received coverage in reliable news sources, particularly from India, regarding his activities. While he may not have been notable to Western media and its audience until his death, he was certainly notable for Indian media and people. It would be a worthy attempt to create article about his death as events unfold and more sources provide coverage. But, his biographical article should be kept in my opinion. --Pavan santhosh.s (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose @GhostOfDanGurney, Changing the title is not recommended in this case. It is evident that WP:BLP1E does not apply to Hardeep Singh Nijjar. A significant number of reliable sources had covered Nijjar before his demise, and the absence of a Misplaced Pages article until his passing does not diminish his notability. Furthermore, Separate creation of Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar is just a classic case of WP:CONTENTFORK and WP:TOOSOON. It provides no real additional information and isn't needed at this stage. Perhaps it may warrant a standalone article in the future, but not at the present moment. 150.129.164.197 (talk) — 150.129.164.197 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Mildly Oppose - While Misplaced Pages only paid attention to this person after his murder (too busy covering Taylor Swift and Star Trek?), it does appear that he was of some note beforehand for his separatist, etc., activities. If the "Death of" article has nothing new and different, perhaps that one should be axed for now. Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Serious review requested

Whole article has just become homepage for info surrounding his death and allegations by Canadian authorities. The article needs to be sanitized and only person-specific encyclopedic content should remain on this page. Also @GhostOfDanGurney has already created separate page for his death and allegations. Ankraj giri (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

This is exactly why I tried to change the scope of the article before creating the Death of... article, but was reverted. Fully agree that the BLP issues (re ent deaths still count under BLP policy) and POV issues need addressed asap. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  20:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages allows Notable Neutral information with Reliable Sources, and there are sufficient Notable & Widely reported information that goes beyond the scope of the death. Anyway that will be decided above in the Request for move section, so no point discussing it again here. RogerYg (talk) 07:07, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Request for Inclusion of Bipartisan Sources

I noticed that the article heavily relies on Canadian sources. While Canadian media outlets are undoubtedly credible, I believe that it is essential to maintain a balanced perspective by including sources that are neutral and bipartisan. 103.82.125.16 (talk) 20:25, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The article currently includes sourcing from American, British, Canadian and Indian based news agencies. If there are other WP:RS covering this topic that you believe should be referenced or included, I encourage you to add them.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Because the page is under semi-protection, if you have changes/sources you would like added, please make an edit request. Misplaced Pages:Edit Request Wizard/Protected can help you make the request, if needed. Thanks! ARandomName123 (talk) 20:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected Edit Request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

• Why it should be changed:

is the citation from CNN whose title highlights expulsion of Canadian diplomat by India. Although the preceding text talks about Canadian expulsion of Indian diplomat,it doesn't talk about Indian expulsion of Canadian diplomat. I believe both are very important events to add at the same place. Either both expulsions be added or none of them. Both carry equal weightage.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Vajrasuchika (talk) 01:41, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

References

1. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/18/americas/canada-hardeep-singh-nijjar-india-intl/index.html
2. https://twitter.com/MEAIndia/status/1704000754783265107

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. ARandomName123 (talk) 01:53, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I got it Thankyou! I'm not a frequent editor and didn't know that I could edit the page. Thanks for acting on the edit request. I'll remove the next edit request too. Vajrasuchika (talk) 04:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

It needs a new section for "The Killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar"

. JohnnyPedro1998 (talk) 11:04, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

The section already exists. 🔥Jalapeño🔥 12:12, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

See the move discussion above.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 12:44, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Add new "reaction" section

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add reaction like

Canada

• Liberal goverment politicians statement
• Opposition (Conservative) politicians statement

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/poilievre-trudeau-hardeep-singh-nijjar https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservatives-india-nijjar-politics-1.6973050 https://www.bcunitedcaucus.ca/2023/09/statement-from-kevin-falcon-on-the-assassination-of-hardeep-singh-nijjar/

India

• politicians statement

International

• USA
• Uk, Australia, China etc

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/21/why-canada-lacks-allies-support-on-claim-india-killed-hardeep-singh-nijjar 150.129.164.197 (talk) 16:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CLYDE /_{STUFF DONE} 17:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

@Feldercarb can you add this? 103.251.217.210 (talk) 17:44, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I do think this merits consideration, though I agree it's unclear what exactly the poster is asking for. I suspect they are suggesting that additional responses to the controversy be sorted by nation--for example, the United States has stated that it is "concerned" and it has reportedly spoken in-depth on this subject with Canada through the Five Eyes organization. This is relevant to the controversy, but not necessarily to this page, since the US has not spoken directly about Mr. Singh Nijjar.TarnishedSteel (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

There is already a Fallout Section, where such content with WP:RS can be added RogerYg (talk) 05:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Split content to Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am seeking consensus to split content related to the killing of the article's subject and aftermath including diplomatic incident to a separate article titled Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar. His death has become a notable occurance due to the "unprecedented diplomatic row" (CNN) between Canada and India and splitting would foster further expansion of this content. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

(Speedy Oppose) Why are you asking for move even though moment ago your consensus failed. 150.129.164.197 (talk) 16:17, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

A) I'm not. B) That discussion was shut down early (two days, really?) due to this article appearing on the main page. Rather than challenge the close (which would be futile), and in the face of editors asserting the subjects notability outside of his death, I am proposing a article split instead. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:20, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it needs stand-alone page. This article is very small compared to articles like Osama bin Laden & i don't think so even in future it can cross size of it. 103.251.217.210 (talk) 16:27, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The discussion is closed above and there is no reason why it should be split again. Davidindia (talk) 16:49, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• Speedy Oppose No basis for having two articles on the topic, it is clearly not justified by length or weight and would result in significant duplication. Reywas92 16:49, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

  The basis is that multiple editors above feel that a biography about this subject can be expanded; if so, there is justification for a separate article on the clearly notable diplomatic incident that is occurring. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:57, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: The above request was a move request, a request to move (and partially rescope) this article. This is a split request, a request to turn this article into two. CLYDE /_{STUFF DONE} 17:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose The article is only a few paragraphs long (it's just 20K). It certainly doesn't need splitting in two. If it becomes so big as to require that in the future, then this discussion can be revisited. Black Kite (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose splitting would not "foster further expansion of this content", it would "foster the creation of two duplicate articles on the same topic". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:07, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I have redirected 2023 Canada–India diplomatic crisis here. Almost the entirety of that page was a copy-and-paste WP:REDUNDANT WP:DUPLICATE of this main article, and the split was rejected above for this exact reason. It's wildly inappropriate to give readers two related articles that have exactly the same content just organized slightly differently. This much overlap can be confusing and lead to inconsistencies, and different changes on each page makes it hard for readers to read both pages to get the full picture because they see the same things twice. A split must be a split with appropriate WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, but when the information is not actually that long as in here, that's hard to do and just results in unnecessary duplication. Reywas92 14:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Canadian PM Trudeau statement

As per WP:Verifiability, WP:Notability & WP:NPOV, we would need to at least partly quote PM Trudeau.

1. On 18 September 2023, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau stated that Canadian Intelligence agencies were "pursuing credible allegations of a potential link" between Indian government agents to the assassination of Nijjar.

It is almost impossible to arrive at WP:NPOV consensus on Neutrality of a parapharsing such as Unique and Controversial statement, and hence quote is required RogerYg (talk) 05:21, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Designated terrorist?

This is something that only the Indian government alleges. Should not be stated as objected fact in lead. Also see MOS:TERRORIST. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:29C0:961D:542D:6738 (talk) 13:02, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I would also add that the part of the lede that discusses alleged terrorist acts relies almost exclusively on Hindu nationalist sources, and fails to mention that the Interpol warrant was caused by a request from the government of India. 2A02:8440:C11F:1EE0:0:31:7AF7:B201 (talk) 13:11, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Fully agree; anything from Hindu nationalist/Indian government sources needs to be removed from the article or attributed properly. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  14:14, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Resolved by User:Vladimir.copic. Thanks! ARandomName123 (talk) 14:16, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Reputed Indian Newspapers such as Indian Express,The Tribune, Hindustan Times, etc cannot be called Hindu Nationalist /Indian Govt. sources, while infact they are quite independent & regularly criticise Hindu Nationalists & the Indian government. RogerYg (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

This is a separate discussion, but think it's entirely sensible to question all Indian media sources. India has a very poor press freedom rating. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:29C0:961D:542D:6738 (talk) 18:17, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

All the above sources are considered reliable per WP:RSP. Indeed this is a separate issue and if you have problems with a particular source you can take it to WP:RSNOTICEBOARD. We don't blanket list all sources as such though in situations of bilateral spats neutral sources not from either party should be seen where available. Gotitbro (talk) 21:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

RSs that generally report factual material can still turn extremely biased when there's a bilateral row ongoing and they are seeking patriotic credit. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:36, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Ahh. So all Canadian outlets must also be unreliable here? And why not extend this also, to say publications from Canadian allies are also unreliable due to people-to-people connect. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 05:38, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Ratings are not the standard determining WP:RS at Misplaced Pages. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 21:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

It seems to be a RACIST argument that Brown Indian Sources are not Reliable, and White Western sources are Reliable. Sorry, Misplaced Pages does not work like this. Many Indian sources are among the most Reliable Sources WP:RS in the world. If you have issue with any source, please raise it on WP:RSNOTICEBOARD. RogerYg (talk) 00:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

This is the second time you have alleged racism here. Please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. That said, I agree that there is nothing wrong with Indian sources that are generally considered WP:RS per above, but we must balance any claim that he was a terrorist with his own denial, and my understanding that he was never convicted, nor extradited.-- Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 03:17, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Sure, "terrorist" I understand. But a lot more, obviously true information is being watered down in this article. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 05:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Darryl Kerrigan, I have not called anyone Racist, and it is not a personal attack. I was refering broadly to the concept of denegrating Indian sources as being Inferior to Western sources without sufficient reasons, even though there are many widely Reputed Indian News sources on which thousands of Misplaced Pages pages are sourced. Again, I have not accused any editor or being racist; but I was raising a Concern about broad characterization here, where there seems to some broad Canadian Superiority over India on this Wiki page in term of sources, without any logical reason. Anyway, I think the point has been made & I will avoid making this point further and I always respect WP:NPA and will avoid personal attacks]]. RogerYg (talk) 05:58, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 22 § Death of Hardeep Singh Nijjar until a consensus is reached. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  14:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Split content to 2023 India-Canada diplomatic crisis

The page was created and was split for "being a copy of Hardeep Singh Nijjar" Even though it was very different from it in many ways. Lukt64 (talk) 20:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:TOOSOON. It's too early to tell if the diplomatic row will become independently notable to the point that it's better covered in a separate article. Immediately proximate details of the dispute (travel restrictions, recalled diplomats) can be covered just fine at this article. VQuakr (talk) 20:46, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Speedy oppose Practially every sentence of that was a word-for-word copy-and-paste from this article. There needs to more content to warrant a split, otherwise it will still be heavily duplicative and a disservice to readers. It's perfectly fine to cover everything in one article for now. Reywas92 20:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose and speedy close per above. Nearly every ounce of content on that page was copied and pasted directly from this one; virtually none of it was “very different in many ways” as you claim. WP:DUPLICATE applies, as do the other suggestions above. The Kip 21:43, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  Note that the editor in question is still trying to get this split off via Draft:2023 India-Canada Tensions. Are we approaching the point of WP:NOTGETTINGIT? The Kip 21:47, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

  The draft was done before it. Lukt64 (talk) 21:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

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