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Requested move 18 October 2023 (2)

It has been proposed in this section that Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion be renamed and moved to Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion → Ahli Arab Hospital explosion – Al- in the title is redundant when starting at the beginning of the sentence; and per hospital's own signage spelling. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment This is obviously a good faith proposal with a sensible motivation. My counterpoint would be that virtually all media in English seem to use Al-Ahli, making it the WP:COMMONNAME. Jeppiz (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • I agree on both points. Also, I don't have a strong position on the proposed move.--Orgullomoore (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as the other user said, WP:COMMONNAME applies as nearly all english media refers to it as al ahli. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Good faith proposal, but as stated above, COMMONNAME applies. The Kip 21:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose it's a good faith proposal, but for the sake of the general public we should stick to the common name. - LoomCreek (talk) 23:05, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I have renamed this discussion to reflect this being the second move discussion on 18 October. Previously, the move template in the article linked to . xRENEGADEx 08:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Though it's true "Ahli" might be one name, their own website interchangeably uses it with "Al-Ahli Hospital." Combined with COMMONNAME as others suggested, this should remain the title so people can find it. Ashvio (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per the reasoning above. As a usage/style note, I think the definite article probably shouldn't be repeated in Wikivoice (i.e. avoid phrasing such as "the al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion") and the "al" remain lowercase. I believe this is in line with MOS:ARABIC, but feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick as this is not an area I am overly familiar with. – GnocchiFan (talk) 16:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, the "al-" part is a part of the hospital name and it doesn't make any sense to remove it. it is like removing the "make" part of your username "Makeandtoss" Abo Yemen✉ 06:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - per above. This is the name that RS are using, and the name of our article on the hospital. I would also suggest that the next editor consider a WP:SNOW close shortly, considering this is a high-traffic page re a recent event. ‡ El cid, el campeador 16:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
• Snow Oppose - per above. The WP:COMMONNAME is pretty clear, and there is a wide consensus of editors above. aismallard (talk) 02:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

References

1. "المستشفى الأهلي - الخليل". web.archive.org. 2023-02-04. Retrieved 2023-10-19.

Overemphasis on United States Perspective

I think the article treats the US different from other countries, because of its inclusion in the attribution part of the infobox and the fact they have their own section in 'analysis'. I think third parties should all be treated the same. There are countries other than the US who have attributed the attack to PIJ who are not in the infobox and there are other countries that have attributed the attack to Israel that are not in the infobox. I propose:

1. Remove the US attribution from the infobox

2. Move the US analysis to the reaction section

I make this proposal to be more consistent in terms of how we treat countries in the article. I think the primary players (Israel, Palestine, Hamas) should be treated differently than third parties. I think there may be different view, so I would really like to hear these different perspectives. Dhawk790 (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Strongly agree. The degree to which the article currently emphasizes and centralizes the American position is WP:UNDUE. WillowCity (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Not all countries have even close to the same level of intelligence apparatus as the U.S., who spends the budget of many countries on its military, for better or worse. Many countries have just cut and paste the Hamas position, which would be undue to equally credit. If Russia wasn't decaying as far as it has, it might actually have intelligence meriting coverage. This article's extent of coverage of the US's role is pretty commensurate with the extent of such coverage in media.--Milowent • 17:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with including the US perspective, I just don't think we should call it out separately from the view of other countries' views, because there can be questions (as with other countries as you mention) with impartiality. I certainly do not think that its view should be in the infobox. Dhawk790 (talk) 17:26, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agree with Dhawk790's proposal. All the 3rd parties should be treated the same. I don't see any compelling reason as to why we should do otherwise. --Mhhossein 18:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  What other 3rd parties are claiming to have intelligence on the issue?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that is the relevant point. There will likely be many countries with intelligence examining the strike and some of those may become publicly reported, I doubt that we will want to list each of those countries in the infobox or give them their own section in the analysis section. My proposal did include moving the US analysis to the reaction section, but when detailed about the intelligence are reported, I think that it would make sense to list that as with the other analyses. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Dhawk790 this comment was prescient, considering that France shared its own view only a few hours later. I don't think the French or the American position should have their own subsection. WillowCity (talk) 23:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Good point. Dhawk790 (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Why not restructure the Analysis and possibly Reaction section(s) so the arguments for responsibility/cause are given headings and whatever entities espouse a view fall under those headings? Then there is no issue of which nations have their own sections. It becomes pure about the content, not the mouthpieces. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 18:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea for the future as the actual details about the intelligence become available. Right now the US intelligence is just about the conclusion and not about how they reached that the conclusion. The first part of analysis section right now has details about the analysis. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Strong agree that entire section has severe NPOV issues and lacks detail on Palestinian positions Ashvio (talk) 23:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The united states currently has a very advanced intelligence community. I don't think you can really argue with this. They are the global hegemon in the so called "rules based international order", and are generally seen as the leader of the western world militarily/economically. They are the leader of NATO, the largest military alliance in the world, and whose combined economy accounts for almost HALF of the worlds GDP. They are, by most accounts still, the worlds sole superpower. They are a country whose conclusions on this are worth noting. I don't think there's any undue emphasis placed here; they are kind of a big deal. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Certainly notable. I am saying that I don't think it should be called out distinct from other countries. The changed made in the analysis section I think are an improvement. I still think the US should be removed from the infobox. Dhawk790 (talk) 11:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

New third party independent source claiming missile came from direction of Israel

It's only preliminary for now but let's keep an eye on this one. It's the first independent verification I've seen going either way.

https://x.com/ForensicArchi/status/1715422493274427414?s=20

As a side note because I know it will come up, independent does not mean unbiased. It just means no direct conflict of interest with either of the parties, so for example privately owned US media would could as independent even if they had a bias as well. Ashvio (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you please post a cite to a publication/press release rather than X? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Here you are! It's fairly short as it's based largely around a video, but I anticipate we will see more of this soon, as one of the NGOs involved (Earshot, the ballistic acoustics analyst) counts WaPo among its clients. Edit: updated to reflect Earshot's actual relationship with Washington Post WillowCity (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah it looks like this source is relatively reliable, they have been commissed by Bellingcat who has also been cited already. I'll try to incorp tonight unless another editor gets to it first. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I incorporated the bit about the audio recording analysis. I didn't do the part about the whirring sound analysis saying the direction of travel was from the east, or the crater angle showed the trajectory was from the northeast.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 21:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It appears the sources make the claim that the missile/rocket originated from the northeast, but the evidence they present only suggests that the final trajectory was from the northeast - something that is also consistent with the rocket clearly changing its trajectory during its failure in flight. For now I imagine there are original research concerns with including such an analysis, but once reliable sources can be found which make the distinction clear this should be included. StuartH (talk) 10:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I see your point.

It's worth noting that emerging intelligence seems to be pointing to an Islamic Jihad Misfire. US and European have indicated that their intelligence points to this.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231020-gaza-hospital-blast-was-caused-by-misfired-rocket-says-european-military-source Homerethegreat (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The new WSJ video does a very good job of describing the trajectory. The rocket did in fact come from the east, after being launched from Gaza toward the northeast, and then spinning out and crashing into the hospital parking lot.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 05:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, one of the best analysis I've seen so far — AdrianHObradors (talk) 09:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for, and as one of the better summaries it is a good candidate for inclusion to provide further context to the Channel 4 claims about the trajectory. StuartH (talk) 11:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Any source that refers to the IDF as the IOF (a pejorative name) cannot be taken seriously as being impartial. Drsmoo (talk) 16:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Please refer to my comment on independence vs bias. It's an independent source even if they have a bias. Pretty much every source in this conflict will have a bias one way or another. Ashvio (talk) 23:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Are they listed as a reliable source? Drsmoo (talk) 23:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

No, they are likely too new to have gone through that process, but Channel 4 published their analysis. I dont know if Channel 4 is on the RS list but it's been used reliably as a source in the past. Ashvio (talk) 00:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Would you feel that way about any source referring to Hamas as terrorists? nableezy - 00:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

That isn't an equivalent. Think about a source that refers to Hamas as Hummus or some such. Cursed Peace (talk) 03:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas objects to being called terrorists, IDF objects to being called IO(ccupation)F. Both could arguably be better descriptors of what they actually represent, and both are pejorative. In any case, I think you'll need more than a pejorative to make the case that a source isn't reliable, it's circumstantial evidence at best. Ashvio (talk) 04:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli rocket?

"The hospital was damaged by Israeli rocket fire three days before the explosion", I think the rocket that was directed at Israel was “Palestinian”. Exx8 (talk) 21:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This was a separate incident three days prior. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

it's 100% confirmed the hospital as hit by Israeli fire several times before the major explosion Ashvio (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It has absolutely no place in the lead. The fact does not make it any more or less likely that Israel was the cause of the subject explosion; it is therefore not relevant for inclusion in the lead. It can be included in the body with the other discussions behind cause, but to put it in its own paragraph in the lead is obvious NPOV at this stage, where we really have no conclusive proof either way (regardless of what a lot of editors want to believe, on both sides) ‡ El cid, el campeador 22:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

it's relevant context that doesn't imply anything in itself. it's worth noting in an article about explosions in a hospital what previous explosions/attacks the hospital has faced Ashvio (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Well said. I made a similar point above (where the same issue is being discussed, which is a bit unfortunate from a consensus-building perspective). WillowCity (talk) 23:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

We do not include any other evidence regarding the cause of the explosion in the lead. Do you think it makes sense to include a single sentence about cause in the lead, with its own paragraph? Including all of the facts is neutral - including some facts - even true ones - is not neutral. And I would still maintain that it not actually relevant to who caused this bombing - from a logical standpoint, the fact that it had been hit by Israeli strikes in the past does not actually go toward establishing that it was an Israeli rocket on this occasion. ‡ El cid, el campeador 23:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I think the issue is your characterization of this as "evidence regarding the cause of the explosion", when the advocates for its inclusion view it rather as context. Context is permissible, and in fact encouraged, under the MoS/Lead. In an article about, say, an industrial accident, it would likely be appropriate to note past safety incidents in the lead, if reliable sources have commented on them in their own coverage. In an article about an alleged (but unconfirmed) shark attack, it would be relevant to note whether or not sharks are found in the area, if (as here) reliable sources have commented on it. I am on board with merging the sentence into an existing paragraph, but I think it is relevant context for the lead. (As an aside, I do not necessarily agree that it's logically irrelevant. But again, inclusion here is not about evidencing a particular POV) WillowCity (talk) 23:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I see it has been removed from the lede; I think that is a good decision, as the important of it and the coverage has received doesn't indicate that such a prominent position is WP:DUE. BilledMammal (talk) 10:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It is not on face evidence. Readers may interpret it as such but we don't write articles around interpretation, we only write them for NPOV. Important context is always useful to include, as it is informative and the primary goal is to inform readers. Ashvio (talk) 01:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

A few sentences down, the prior rocket fire damage is already mentioned and cited.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 23:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Time to start saying it was a Palestinian rocket?

At this stage, we seems to be moving more and more towards the position being it was a Palestinian rocket that misfired. I don't really count the Israeli claim (obvious bias) but both the US and France intelligence seem to have independently reached the conclusion that it was a failed rocket. Obviously we'll never have an admission of guilt from Islamic Jihad, nor the twittersphere of opinionated individuals (goes for both sides, I'm not pointing fingers at one side), but for at least 48 hours now, it seems that every RS expressing an opinion seems to say it was likely a Palestinian rocket. If we are serious about NPOV, we may need to start to reflect that in the article. (BTW: This is a thread to open a discussion about it, not to rush to any immediate change in the article). Jeppiz (talk) 21:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

There's already several threads about this and it's clear there's no consensus in the media on what caused the explosion, in fact new independent reports are coming out with evidence it could have been Israel still. Please remain patient and wait for the evidence to solidify before rushing to push the article in a direction we may not be able to defend with NPOV. I believe we also don't consider governments allied with Israel to be independent sources since they have a conflict of interest (heavy investments into Israel and allyship) Ashvio (talk) 21:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jeppiz See here: https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion Orgullomoore (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is premature. Selfstudier (talk) 22:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It is indeed premature. We need to wait until there is a conclusive finding shared among RS, if there ever is one. This may need a formal discussion based upon the high stakes of this topic. ‡ El cid, el campeador 22:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Selfstudier and El Cid, you're probably right. Better we give it a bit more time. Jeppiz (talk) 22:45, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

"we seems to be moving more and more towards the position being it was a Palestinian rocket"

No we are not moving in this direction at all, the emerging facts largely contradict israeli claims. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

More independent research from AP came out today, doing a thorough analysis and concluding it was not Israel. All of the RS published now concludes it was a failed missile and not from israel. Apart from AJ, who else is saying anything to the contrary? 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it can be a fallacy to say "only AJ" says anything to the contrary. Many non western media does not support the theory Palestine was the cause, but it may be hard for EN Wiki editors to have that context. There is an underrepresentation in my opinion of non western media in the RS list (which is possibly unavoidable since many of them are exclusively non-English), so we should not underemphasize that AJ represents a large chunk of media.

There are also RS in the west who do not report it as definitively caused by Palestine either. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/al-ahli-baptist-hospital-bombing-gaza_n_6532d595e4b00f9a71cc6e03 Ashvio (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that fewer and fewer sources still follow the invisible Israeli aircraft with tiny bomb theory, but this is going to need to go through an rfc. Cursed Peace (talk) 01:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It certainly does not need to. Consensus should be quite clear. Andre🚐 05:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Consensus among the sources is pretty clear. 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that reliable sources have largely reached a consensus. I think there's a balance issue in the article by not acknowledging this, along with not acknowledging the role of misinformation and the motivations behind invested parties in pushing narratives; this is also in the sources and yet no one is willing to acknowledge it in this article for some reason, not even a single sentence with a link to the separate article on disinformation in this war. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 23:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course either side will deny responsibility. I personally wouldn't trust the radical groups such as Islamic Jihad and Hamas the most, as they would use lies and deceit to further their game. As you said, since both the US and France intelligence have concluded that it was a failed rocket from the Palestinian groups, we should begin to list them as the (sole) perpetrators. Yucalyptus (talk) 02:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You can personally think whatever you want, what really matters is the mounting evidence of independent investigation. Statements by State actors are not reliable as matters of fact. Especially if both of them are clearly politically involved in the situation. It would be completely wrong to change the status of dispute to some partial conclusion. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Still very early, there are already many people immediately jumping to the conclusion that it was a misfired rocket. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

They immediately jumped to the conclusion, falsely, that Israel fired it. Experts have now determined it was a rocket that was fired from inside Palestinian territory. Andre🚐 05:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There is not conclusion, many experts say the contrary. Please, provide reliable sources. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The sources, AP and Der Spiegel, were in the article already and are provided here. Andre🚐 20:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It is no longer premature; it is time to make this factual due to experts in RS. We can still attribute it, though. Andre🚐 05:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yep, I agree. This latest AP piece shows that it's pretty much unanimous consensus at this point. Only Al Jazeera says they find "no grounds" to support the Palestinian rocket theory. Channel 4 pokes a few holes in the launch point, trajectory, and audio recording proffered by Israel, but they also poke holes in the Israeli payload theory. Everybody else is like: "Can't say for sure, but most likely explanation is that this was a misfired rocket."-- Orgullomoore (talk) 06:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The Channel 4 claims regarding the trajectory appear not to account for the fact that the rocket was clearly observed to change its trajectory during its failure. This remains original research for now, but hopefully a reliable source can be found that addresses the trajectory before impact in the context of the change in trajectory observed in flight. StuartH (talk) 09:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. If it was launched into the north/east, and then spun out, the fact that the projectile was coming from east of the mobile phone just before it hit the ground is not inconsistent with it having been fired from west of the hospital. But yes, that's just our own original research for now.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, please, at this point there is a *clear* consensus in both the RS's and independent analyses. "What I have said to people, publicly, is: ‘Don’t assume it’s Israel. You have no proof that it’s Israel. Many people have made a clear case it’s not. At the very best, do not start propagating another blood libel." --Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby 192.138.178.105 (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think insinuating people who oppose your position are committing "blood libel" is going to help your case. There are still sources, though a minority in western media, suggesting Israel may have been responsible. Ashvio (talk) 13:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

(Statement of the obvious): it's not the role of an online encyclopaedia to make some kind of definitive judgement on a widely disputed issue, especially one so recent as to still be in the primary reporting stage. The article should simply note in appropriately encyclopaedic terms the various theories relevant to the dispute with due weight to the number, reliability and nature of sources.

As an equally obvious addition, this particular event is packed with commentators on both sides making bold pronouncements about "what really happened." It would be wise to be a little cautious about reporting from either perspective until there is more distance from the event itself. - Euryalus (talk) 06:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not in any rush, but I think if you take the time to go through the sources, you will find it difficult to find anything reliable pointing to an Israeli airstrike. There is AJ, which, let's face it, hates Israel (and has no shortage of reasons to hate Israel--and Israel hates AJ too). Other than that, you have the "I don't know because I would need more information" and the knee-jerk "Israel did it" reactions from the Arab World + Iran et al., who are desperate to believe that. I do think there's wisdom in waiting, though. Maybe we should go when Canada goes and don't oppose waiting. It's been like 3.5 days since the explosion.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 06:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The consensus is indeed clear in the sources it was a Palestinian-originating rocket, not an Israeli airstrike. All experts such as a neutral Swedish weaponry expert to Der Spiegel. It's in the article. and not at all unclear anymore. Andre🚐 06:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Currently we have a whole paragraph full of RS and original research (unrelated to Israel's or Hamas's claims). Even more RS coming out every hour that supports the claim it was a misfire. Like this research by Intel France. There isn't a single contradicting RS that supports the airstrike claim. Article needs to be updated. dov (talk) 11:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. Andre🚐 16:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Concur. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Well that didn't take long. Canada has arrived.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 03:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Even better would be a moratorium on threads suggesting that the article be worded to say one side or the other is known to have caused this. We don't have enough information, it's an emerging topic, and it's an important topic to be impartial about. —DIYeditor (talk) 09:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, we should report the findings of reliable sources and not make our own summaries. Producing our own analysis is original research. If the preponderance of sources say one thing, just report them and let readers draw their own conclusion. We shouldn’t summarize unless an RS itself does so. Drsmoo (talk) 11:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I would say wait until nearly all the major "factions" of the world (and their media) are either silent on the topic or agree. There's absolutely no need to rush to have this have some particular phrasing about facts. —DIYeditor (talk) 11:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. A moratorium would not contribute to impartiality but would decrease agility and insulate the article's biases, misinformation, or outdated content from constructive improvements. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 23:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

oppose moratorium. Andre🚐 16:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

if you oppose a moratorium, why remove my thread? Ashvio (talk) 22:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to wait and not rush to a conclusion, as @Selfstudier et al have suggested. What's the hurry? Misplaced Pages doesn't lead; we follow. I support the moratorium; at the appropriate time, and bearing in mind the extreme contentiousness of this area, an RFC would almost certainly be the best course of action. WillowCity (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose RFC, as it's not necessary to resolve anything. We should be able to resolve this through normal discussion. All experts, the AP, and other reliable sources have established at this point that it was a Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike. WP:NODEADLINE, yes. But Misplaced Pages would not be leading by incorporating this reliably sourced consensus-of-experts info. Andre🚐 17:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Insist on that position, an RFC it will be. Selfstudier (talk) 17:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You are certainly welcome to revert or start an RFC, but it's not necessary in my view, since we have reliable sources. Andre🚐 17:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

That's a misrepresentation of the AP source in my view. AP specifically says, "A lack of forensic evidence and the difficulty of gathering that material on the ground in the middle of a war means there is no definitive proof the break-up of the rocket and the explosion at the hospital are linked." And Wired has commented on criticism of the rush to judgment by many OSINT analysts on social and news media: "In the days since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, people claiming to be OSINT practitioners have emerged on social media who are much more willing to make conclusive findings almost immediately than people who have a long history of conducting OSINT work." WillowCity (talk) 17:44, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, take a look at the text I inserted. Andre🚐 17:47, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I feel strongly that someone should revert pending discussion and consensus, unless we propose to include AJ and the Forensic Architecture investigation in the lead as well. It's also unclear whether the experts are "impartial" as currently stated, they include "a retired U.S. Army colonel", "a former U.S. Army intelligence analyst". Calling them impartial is editorializing, in my view, since not even AP uses this term. Let the readers draw their own conclusions on that point. As well, "more likely" (presumably, preponderance of evidence/balance of probabilities) seems insufficient to merit inclusion in the lead; we're shading into WP:EXCEPTIONAL with that one. WillowCity (talk) 17:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm happy to remove the term impartial if that is a sticking point. Andre🚐 18:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It's a sticking point but there are so many issues with this. Like one of the sources you link above, Variety, is (as noted on RSPSS) a trade publication; if the dispute was whether Cate Blanchett hired a new talent agent, that would be perfect, but for something like this? And the lead says that the experts "concluded", but the party doing the concluding is AP, which is one source. Big wp:undue and wp:npov issues with this. I really think we need broader consensus prior to inclusion (see also WP:ONUS). WillowCity (talk) 18:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I just offered Variety because it discusses the BBC retraction. Did you read it? It's not used in the article, it's for you to read and understand. If you really want a different source for the BBC saga, I'll find one, but there was nothing at issue in that one. You're also just doing policy word salad now . Yeah, ONUS and NPOV and DUE/UNDUE all support this. AP’s assessment is supported by a range of experts with specialties in open-source intelligence, geolocation and rocketry Andre🚐 18:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I did read it, and I read BBC's retraction itself, which did not assign blame one way or the other. The retraction of preliminary BBC reporting based on inconclusive evidence is not conclusive evidence as to the actual perpetrator of the attack. WillowCity (talk) 18:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm mainly bringing the AP experts and Der Spiegel. That's what's mentioned in the lead. Andre🚐 18:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

"Word salad"? That's not very nice. I think the policies cited are relevant, and I don't think your revision complies with them, but that's for the community to decide, not you or I alone. WillowCity (talk) 18:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I'll strike that. Andre🚐 18:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I've tagged this thread on WP:RSN. We do not need an RFC yet. See WP:RFCBEFORE. Andre🚐 18:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

So… you want it all reverted because Variety was used as a source then? That’s all you pointed out. 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 22:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You must have missed the entire second half of my comment, which (1) disputed the use of "concluded" based on the cited sources (2) pointed out that reliance on two sources is undue in the lead for such a controverted topic, and (3) emphasized the lack of consensus. WillowCity (talk) 23:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah i’d disagree. It borders on absurd levels of ignoring consensus among sources. Al jazeera, the one known to be biased with israel/palestine conflict.

At this point we have multiple sources pointing to the fact that israel did not do this. AP, BBC, US intelligence agencies, french intelligence agencies all came to the same conclusion. 2605:B100:939:225B:5401:E9FC:4BC5:28F5 (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

This IP is correct sort of. If AJ is the lone outlier and they are citing Hamas themselves, that should be attributed as an outlier, and the consensus of AP, BBC, intelligence from US and France, then that should be the primary weighted statement (which can be attributed too, of course, out of an abundance of caution and NPOV) Andre🚐 21:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The Forensic Architecture source refers to the IDF as the “IOF”, a pejorative. Are they listed as a reliable source on Wiki, because that alone suggests unreliability. Drsmoo (talk) 23:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Forensic Architecture is part of the University of London. Not sure if they are published enough to have an RS discussion but editors in the previous discussion seemed to believe it was reliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAl-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion#New_third_party_independent_source_claiming_missile_came_from_direction_of_Israel Ashvio (talk) 23:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The sentence was removed by someone else. The sentence is as follows: Weapons experts and intelligence analysts surveyed by the AP and Der Spiegel have analyzed and concluded the Palestinian rocket explanation was more likely than the airstrike explanation. Andre🚐 21:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Auto archiving

Would it be useful to set up auto-archiving on the talk page? David O. Johnson (talk) 23:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely!-- Orgullomoore (talk) 00:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

agreed this place is becoming hard to follow. we should also coalesce the different threads talking about the same thing into one Ashvio (talk) 00:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It looks like the autoarchive is already set up to archive "after 1 day of inactivity." David O. Johnson (talk) 00:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Finally! -- Orgullomoore (talk) 08:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I saw it in the History and was just gobsmacked. Lol. David O. Johnson (talk) 08:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

"Hamas stated that Israel deliberately shelled the hospital."

@Orgullomoore:

In this edit, you changed The Gaza Health Ministry said the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike into Hamas accused Israel of deliberately shelling the hospital.

What source is the changed statement based on? (Shelling and airstrikes are very different things.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I changed it. Andre🚐 17:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@HaeB I was just translating Hamas directly (they use قصف), but on reflection, I think you're right that it should say airstrike. It appears قصف is used more loosely in Arabic than shelling in English.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 20:03, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Literally it means bombardment with artillery, but the word قصف has been used as a sort of blanket statement for bombardment, in this case airstrikes The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 02:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"Background" sentence about other attacks on medical facilities

I removed content that basically said "guilty by purported association", i.e., it's not based on any evidence but on an opinion:

"Before the explosion at the hospital, the World Health Organization said Israel had attacked health facilities in Gaza 51 times.

My removal was reverted, and the sentence later expanded expanded to this version:

Prior to the explosion at the hospital, the World Health Organization said Israel had attacked health facilities in the Gaza Strip 51 times, killing 15 hospital workers and injuring 27 others, since 7 October.

The headline of the cited UN source says, "UN chief 'horrified' by strike on Gaza hospital, as warring sides blame each other". The USA Today paragraph: Since the attacks began on Oct. 7, there have been more than 115 attacks on healthcare centers across occupied Palestinian territory, according to the WHO. Fifty-one occurred in the Gaza Strip, with 15 hospital workers killed and 27 injured. The other incidents happened in the West Bank, officials said. The sources didn't support our versions, whether it's the initial one or the expanded version. Current version:

The World Health Organization said that since October 7 there were 51 attacks on health facilities in the Gaza Strip, killing 15 hospital workers and injuring 27 others.

Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 13:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes that is original research Drsmoo (talk) 13:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, sentence has no place here. Some users objected to a sentence saying that Hamas had previously used hospitals to store ammunition as irrelevant. By the same logic, this is equally irrelevant. Jeppiz (talk) 13:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Unless sources explicitly link this material to the article subject, it should not be included. There is plenty of sourcing for an article about Israeli attacks on medical facilities, though.Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't write NPOV around what conclusions people might take from an analysis of the verifiable facts. The context of hospital attacks is relevant and important context that must be included. Ashvio (talk) 22:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Why are these previous attacks relevant to this event? To provide corroboration for the possibility that this explosion may have the same cause. I see no other reason for their inclusion.

So what you're arguing is that you can include information based on an unstated conclusion, knowing this will lead a reader to a certain conclusion, but as long as you argue that you aren't considering readers' potential conclusions, you aren't leading a reader by the inclusion of said information? Inmymoonsuit (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The article on the Kennedy assassination includes the phrase: "In 1963, Kennedy decided to travel to Texas to smooth over frictions in the state's Democratic Party between liberal U.S. Senator Ralph Yarborough and conservative Governor John Connally." By your logic, this should be stricken as leading readers to conclude that Kennedy was killed as a result of internal strife within the Texas Democratic party. An encyclopedia article is allowed to discuss relevant background information for context. WillowCity (talk) 03:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

How is any of that relevant to the PIJ hitting a hospital with a rocket in a friendly fire attack? We could probably provide a list of other rocket misfires to build up context. But since this is unrelated to air strikes, I don't see how they are relevant. Cursed Peace (talk) 03:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

You're just begging the question; your comment treats the PIJ theory as a foregone conclusion. And as it stands, rocket misfires are already noted. My point in referencing other articles is to note that Misplaced Pages policy, if applied consistently, weighs against the reasoning above. It's known as "analogy". WillowCity (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm summarizing what reliable sources say currently. Nobody except for partisans are claiming Israel was involved here. We don't need to aim for falsebalance and pretend an airstrike by an invisible and untrackable airplane is a realistic theory. Cursed Peace (talk) 03:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Calls for an independent investigation

The article does note that the UN has called for an independent investigation. But I think under "Aftermath" or "Reactions", it would be appropriate to have a few sentences (or possibly a subsection) about calls for an independent investigation, since this has been raised by more than just the UN. Sources calling for an independent investigation:

- European Parliament ("MEPs call for an independent investigation into the Al-Ahli hospital blast in Gaza")

- Amnesty UK ("attack on Al Ahli hospital in Gaza must be independently investigated")

- The Independent ("Irish deputy premier calls for independent probe into Gaza hospital strike")

- Khaleej Times ("The UAE has called for a full, independent investigation into the bombing of Al Ahli Baptist hospital...")

Another potentially relevant source:

- Politico ( stressed: 'It is important that this incident is investigated very thoroughly.") WillowCity (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I would condense it to one sentence, until and unless such investigation starts. Calling for an independent investigation is cheap. Alaexis_¿question? 19:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:RSN note

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Are_Hamas_and_Gaza_ministry_numbers_reliable? Andre🚐 18:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Article source

The source currently cited for "U.S., Experts Say Evidence Suggests Palestinian Rocket Hit Gaza Hospital" is The Wall Street Journal. While the WSJ site is the original source the citation link leads to the WSJ article at MSN Shouldn't the citation be something like The Wall Street Journal via MSN? If MSN is cited perhaps its shorter URL should be used. Could the WSJ URL be cited as well? Mcljlm (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Does this diff address what you're talking about? The issue with linking to WSJ is that it is completely paywalled off, whereas MSN gives you the full text without a paywall, and also allows archive.org to save the text for when the link dies. I'm not aware of a way to also link the paywalled WSJ URL while at the same time preserving the MSN URL. Anybody else have a comment on this?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 23:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware Orgullomoore of the WSJ paywall problem {similarly with many other quality sources} and also that many articles are at MSN and sometimes republished by other newspapers. On WP I've tended to use the original URL for readers able to access the article at source adding (creating if necessary) an archived URL.

I see you've added "via MSN", but what about the shorter URL. There's also an archived MSN version if it's wanted. Mcljlm (talk) 01:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on how to decide when "consensus" is reached and is no longer "contested"

AP news conducted a comprehensive analysis and concluded the cause of the explosion was a Palestinian rocket.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3?taid=653359761b640e00010945be

AP is a respectable and credible source. Ignoring its analysis and the analysis of many additional credible sources will only prove that Misplaced Pages is led by politics, not seeking facts and truths. 2A0D:6FC7:441:E1CA:878:5634:1232:5476 (talk) 05:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Not ignored. Thoroughly explained in the article .-- Orgullomoore (talk) 05:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Canada's defence minister says that according to its intelligence, Israel didn’t attack the hospital

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7004384 81.199.249.196 (talk) 06:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Got it-- Orgullomoore (talk) 06:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Addition in India's Reaction

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Addition to the "Reactions" section : "Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi spoke to the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to convey condolences at the loss of civilian lives at Al Ahli hospital in Gaza."

Source: https://www.livemint.com/news/world/pm-modi-speaks-to-palestinian-authority-president-mahmoud-abbas-conveys-condolences-for-gaza-hospital-blast-victims-11697720334056.html Saket Sharma (talk) 07:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox switch from "disputed" to "probably"

I've switched the infobox from "disputed" to "probably PIJ"; the previous version has had a growing WP:NPOV issue, as it presents the two claims as if they are equal, but they are not - reliable and independent sources are consistently stating that the cause was probably the PIJ. BilledMammal (talk) 10:40, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

As long as all major sources do not come to a singular consensus, or until an actual invistigataion happens (like the one that UN called for), I think the other option should be included to some extent, no matter how unprobable you think it is. Imagemafia (talk) 11:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

It should be included in the body, but to include it in the infobox would go against WP:DUE. BilledMammal (talk) 11:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I see, however I think that such a recent and still quite controversial event is a completely different subject than the "flat earth" example listed in WP:DUE, and therefore the Israel option should still be listed in the infobox with some disclaimer, the adjective "alleged" would be enough, because at least to me it holds a lesser value than "probably". The view is still held by a significant minority which does have some sources for it, they are even listed in the article. So unless we want to directly put an opinion piece as one of the first things a reader will see, then "propably PIJ" shouldn't be the only thing in there. Imagemafia (talk) 11:37, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure how I feel about using "probably" verbiage based on a single source in infobox. There are still many sources reporting it as contested. I agree keeping it in infobox and body for now is appropriate. Ashvio (talk) 11:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose I still believe my claim is correct Imagemafia (talk) 13:18, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

No, your claim is incorrect, and violates core WP policies. You claim above we need to have "all major sources" come to a consensus. That is the opposite of what WP:NPOV says. So regardless of what the infobox here should say, you claim is wrong. Jeppiz (talk) 13:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, you are definitely much more experienced than me so I'll believe you, it still makes no sense though. Imagemafia (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• oppose. per @Imagemafia

Chafique (talk) 12:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support as per WP:RS and WP:NPOV. I was among those saying we should not assume blame based on RS reporting that Biden said so, and needed to wait for RS saying so in their own voice. That's where we are now; we have multiple reliable sources confirming in their own voice that it was Islamic Jihad. NPOV is clear we should report the majority view in reliable sources, not pretend there's a false balance when there is none. Jeppiz (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• This has not been backed up by reliable sources, they are still reporting accusations and claims, not stating anything as a fact. nableezy - 13:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• And yes Channel 4 citing Earshot disputing this is an independent analysis quoted in a reliable source. You cant just ignore the sources that dont follow what you think, and you cant state as a fact what reliable sources dispute. nableezy - 13:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Wrong on most accounts. For example, Wall Street Journal (see link below) state as a fact that it was a failed Palestinian rocket, directly disproving your claim. Channel 4 does report a contrary position to most reliable sources, that part is true. It should also be covered in the article, as a WP:MINORITY view. Pretending there is some form of balance in reliable sources between saying it was Israel or Islamic Jihad is simply incorrect. As per NPOV, if one view is the clear majority view, then articles should reflect that (and also provide space for a notable minority view, which this article should do). Jeppiz (talk) 13:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Britain’s channel 4 new analysis, different from its previous one, suggesting israeli airstrike and fabrication of israel proclaimed phone call

someone add it to the article, and also remove this “probably PIJ” in the infobox as there is no consensus among sources or clear cut evidence or official UN investigation until now. Revert it to “disputed” as it was.Chafique (talk) 11:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but most of what you write is wrong. First, Channel 4 has done no analysis; the YouTube clip reports an alleged analysis. Second, the organisation behind that analysis, "Earshot" seems very obscure. There is no information on it, no indication what expertise (if any) they have. (Third, I generally find YouTube clips to be less good sources than articles. If something is noticeable, it will be published in written WP:RS. Jeppiz (talk) 12:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

A further WSJ analysis backing Israel released

Please add to the article Video Analysis Shows Gaza Hospital Hit By Rocket Meant for Israel | WSJ Lilijuros (talk) 12:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

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