Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:54, 23 October 2023

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic: You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances) Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

This article is rated C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Crime and Criminal Biography Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Death Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Disaster management Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Explosives Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Explosives, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Explosives on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ExplosivesWikipedia:WikiProject ExplosivesTemplate:WikiProject ExplosivesExplosives Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale. Hospitals Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hospitals, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hospitals on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HospitalsWikipedia:WikiProject HospitalsTemplate:WikiProject HospitalsHospital Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Human rights Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. International relations High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Israel High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Israel Palestine Collaboration This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War Start‑class This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the project's quality scale. This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces: /  Middle Eastern military history task force Post-Cold War task force Palestine High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Journalism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

It is requested that an image or photograph of Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

An item related to this article has been nominated to appear on the Main Page in the "In the news" section. You can visit the nomination to take part in the discussion. Editors are encouraged to update the article with information obtained from reliable news sources to include recent events. Please remove this template when the nomination process has concluded, replacing it with Template:ITN talk if appropriate.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: Reactions to strike on Gaza hospital killing hundreds - Reuters, 17 October 2023

Requested move 18 October 2023 (2)

It has been proposed in this section that Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion be renamed and moved to Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion → Ahli Arab Hospital explosion – Al- in the title is redundant when starting at the beginning of the sentence; and per hospital's own signage spelling. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment This is obviously a good faith proposal with a sensible motivation. My counterpoint would be that virtually all media in English seem to use Al-Ahli, making it the WP:COMMONNAME. Jeppiz (talk) 21:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • I agree on both points. Also, I don't have a strong position on the proposed move.--Orgullomoore (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose as the other user said, WP:COMMONNAME applies as nearly all english media refers to it as al ahli. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Good faith proposal, but as stated above, COMMONNAME applies. The Kip 21:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose it's a good faith proposal, but for the sake of the general public we should stick to the common name. - LoomCreek (talk) 23:05, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I have renamed this discussion to reflect this being the second move discussion on 18 October. Previously, the move template in the article linked to . xRENEGADEx 08:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Though it's true "Ahli" might be one name, their own website interchangeably uses it with "Al-Ahli Hospital." Combined with COMMONNAME as others suggested, this should remain the title so people can find it. Ashvio (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per the reasoning above. As a usage/style note, I think the definite article probably shouldn't be repeated in Wikivoice (i.e. avoid phrasing such as "the al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion") and the "al" remain lowercase. I believe this is in line with MOS:ARABIC, but feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick as this is not an area I am overly familiar with. – GnocchiFan (talk) 16:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, the "al-" part is a part of the hospital name and it doesn't make any sense to remove it. it is like removing the "make" part of your username "Makeandtoss" Abo Yemen✉ 06:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - per above. This is the name that RS are using, and the name of our article on the hospital. I would also suggest that the next editor consider a WP:SNOW close shortly, considering this is a high-traffic page re a recent event. ‡ El cid, el campeador 16:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
• Snow Oppose - per above. The WP:COMMONNAME is pretty clear, and there is a wide consensus of editors above. aismallard (talk) 02:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

References

1. "المستشفى الأهلي - الخليل". web.archive.org. 2023-02-04. Retrieved 2023-10-19.

Overemphasis on United States Perspective

I think the article treats the US different from other countries, because of its inclusion in the attribution part of the infobox and the fact they have their own section in 'analysis'. I think third parties should all be treated the same. There are countries other than the US who have attributed the attack to PIJ who are not in the infobox and there are other countries that have attributed the attack to Israel that are not in the infobox. I propose:

1. Remove the US attribution from the infobox

2. Move the US analysis to the reaction section

I make this proposal to be more consistent in terms of how we treat countries in the article. I think the primary players (Israel, Palestine, Hamas) should be treated differently than third parties. I think there may be different view, so I would really like to hear these different perspectives. Dhawk790 (talk) 17:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Strongly agree. The degree to which the article currently emphasizes and centralizes the American position is WP:UNDUE. WillowCity (talk) 17:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Not all countries have even close to the same level of intelligence apparatus as the U.S., who spends the budget of many countries on its military, for better or worse. Many countries have just cut and paste the Hamas position, which would be undue to equally credit. If Russia wasn't decaying as far as it has, it might actually have intelligence meriting coverage. This article's extent of coverage of the US's role is pretty commensurate with the extent of such coverage in media.--Milowent • 17:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with including the US perspective, I just don't think we should call it out separately from the view of other countries' views, because there can be questions (as with other countries as you mention) with impartiality. I certainly do not think that its view should be in the infobox. Dhawk790 (talk) 17:26, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agree with Dhawk790's proposal. All the 3rd parties should be treated the same. I don't see any compelling reason as to why we should do otherwise. --Mhhossein 18:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  What other 3rd parties are claiming to have intelligence on the issue?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that is the relevant point. There will likely be many countries with intelligence examining the strike and some of those may become publicly reported, I doubt that we will want to list each of those countries in the infobox or give them their own section in the analysis section. My proposal did include moving the US analysis to the reaction section, but when detailed about the intelligence are reported, I think that it would make sense to list that as with the other analyses. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Dhawk790 this comment was prescient, considering that France shared its own view only a few hours later. I don't think the French or the American position should have their own subsection. WillowCity (talk) 23:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Good point. Dhawk790 (talk) 23:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Why not restructure the Analysis and possibly Reaction section(s) so the arguments for responsibility/cause are given headings and whatever entities espouse a view fall under those headings? Then there is no issue of which nations have their own sections. It becomes pure about the content, not the mouthpieces. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 18:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea for the future as the actual details about the intelligence become available. Right now the US intelligence is just about the conclusion and not about how they reached that the conclusion. The first part of analysis section right now has details about the analysis. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Strong agree that entire section has severe NPOV issues and lacks detail on Palestinian positions Ashvio (talk) 23:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The united states currently has a very advanced intelligence community. I don't think you can really argue with this. They are the global hegemon in the so called "rules based international order", and are generally seen as the leader of the western world militarily/economically. They are the leader of NATO, the largest military alliance in the world, and whose combined economy accounts for almost HALF of the worlds GDP. They are, by most accounts still, the worlds sole superpower. They are a country whose conclusions on this are worth noting. I don't think there's any undue emphasis placed here; they are kind of a big deal. Chuckstablers (talk) 01:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Certainly notable. I am saying that I don't think it should be called out distinct from other countries. The changed made in the analysis section I think are an improvement. I still think the US should be removed from the infobox. Dhawk790 (talk) 11:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

New third party independent source claiming missile came from direction of Israel

It's only preliminary for now but let's keep an eye on this one. It's the first independent verification I've seen going either way.

https://x.com/ForensicArchi/status/1715422493274427414?s=20

As a side note because I know it will come up, independent does not mean unbiased. It just means no direct conflict of interest with either of the parties, so for example privately owned US media would could as independent even if they had a bias as well. Ashvio (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you please post a cite to a publication/press release rather than X? LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

After realizing that my Misplaced Pages account was banned, and that you assholes on Misplaced Pages hate original research, I decided to do my own reporting, and send it to the international organizations, using the Fourier transform and doppler shift analysis, which is located in that report. I will also mention that it is impossible that the missile came from Hamas, because it was a supersonic rocket, based on the supersonic screech tones, and the fact that the screech tones continue even after the initial blast wave hits. It's really too bad that you guys have banned my account, because of the massive amount of political shills on this "encyclopedia", because otherwise I wouldn't have been so utterly assmad and seething that I decided to do the work myself, and you might have kept up this charade for a bit longer. 97.120.207.252 (talk) 05:54, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Here you are! It's fairly short as it's based largely around a video, but I anticipate we will see more of this soon, as one of the NGOs involved (Earshot, the ballistic acoustics analyst) counts WaPo among its clients. Edit: updated to reflect Earshot's actual relationship with Washington Post WillowCity (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah it looks like this source is relatively reliable, they have been commissed by Bellingcat who has also been cited already. I'll try to incorp tonight unless another editor gets to it first. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I incorporated the bit about the audio recording analysis. I didn't do the part about the whirring sound analysis saying the direction of travel was from the east, or the crater angle showed the trajectory was from the northeast.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 21:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It appears the sources make the claim that the missile/rocket originated from the northeast, but the evidence they present only suggests that the final trajectory was from the northeast - something that is also consistent with the rocket clearly changing its trajectory during its failure in flight. For now I imagine there are original research concerns with including such an analysis, but once reliable sources can be found which make the distinction clear this should be included. StuartH (talk) 10:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I see your point.

It's worth noting that emerging intelligence seems to be pointing to an Islamic Jihad Misfire. US and European have indicated that their intelligence points to this.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231020-gaza-hospital-blast-was-caused-by-misfired-rocket-says-european-military-source Homerethegreat (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The new WSJ video does a very good job of describing the trajectory. The rocket did in fact come from the east, after being launched from Gaza toward the northeast, and then spinning out and crashing into the hospital parking lot.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 05:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, one of the best analysis I've seen so far — AdrianHObradors (talk) 09:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this is exactly what I was looking for, and as one of the better summaries it is a good candidate for inclusion to provide further context to the Channel 4 claims about the trajectory. StuartH (talk) 11:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a contradiction between Camera 1 and Camera 2 in this video. In the footage from Camera 2 you can see at least 10 rockets rising. In footage from Camera 1, only one rocket can be seen, which then veers off course. Avior (talk) 18:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your WP:OR.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:56, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Any source that refers to the IDF as the IOF (a pejorative name) cannot be taken seriously as being impartial. Drsmoo (talk) 16:43, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Please refer to my comment on independence vs bias. It's an independent source even if they have a bias. Pretty much every source in this conflict will have a bias one way or another. Ashvio (talk) 23:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Are they listed as a reliable source? Drsmoo (talk) 23:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

No, they are likely too new to have gone through that process, but Channel 4 published their analysis. I dont know if Channel 4 is on the RS list but it's been used reliably as a source in the past. Ashvio (talk) 00:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Would you feel that way about any source referring to Hamas as terrorists? nableezy - 00:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

That isn't an equivalent. Think about a source that refers to Hamas as Hummus or some such. Cursed Peace (talk) 03:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas objects to being called terrorists, IDF objects to being called IO(ccupation)F. Both could arguably be better descriptors of what they actually represent, and both are pejorative. In any case, I think you'll need more than a pejorative to make the case that a source isn't reliable, it's circumstantial evidence at best. Ashvio (talk) 04:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

One is an adjective, one is the name of the group. wp:cir here. Nouns and adjectives are not the same thing, and if the source is unable to say IDF, they aren't reliable. Cursed Peace (talk) 16:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Your opinion. It also remains irrelevant, since Channel 4 is the actual source here. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli rocket?

"The hospital was damaged by Israeli rocket fire three days before the explosion", I think the rocket that was directed at Israel was “Palestinian”. Exx8 (talk) 21:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This was a separate incident three days prior. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 21:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

it's 100% confirmed the hospital as hit by Israeli fire several times before the major explosion Ashvio (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It has absolutely no place in the lead. The fact does not make it any more or less likely that Israel was the cause of the subject explosion; it is therefore not relevant for inclusion in the lead. It can be included in the body with the other discussions behind cause, but to put it in its own paragraph in the lead is obvious NPOV at this stage, where we really have no conclusive proof either way (regardless of what a lot of editors want to believe, on both sides) ‡ El cid, el campeador 22:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

it's relevant context that doesn't imply anything in itself. it's worth noting in an article about explosions in a hospital what previous explosions/attacks the hospital has faced Ashvio (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Well said. I made a similar point above (where the same issue is being discussed, which is a bit unfortunate from a consensus-building perspective). WillowCity (talk) 23:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

We do not include any other evidence regarding the cause of the explosion in the lead. Do you think it makes sense to include a single sentence about cause in the lead, with its own paragraph? Including all of the facts is neutral - including some facts - even true ones - is not neutral. And I would still maintain that it not actually relevant to who caused this bombing - from a logical standpoint, the fact that it had been hit by Israeli strikes in the past does not actually go toward establishing that it was an Israeli rocket on this occasion. ‡ El cid, el campeador 23:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I think the issue is your characterization of this as "evidence regarding the cause of the explosion", when the advocates for its inclusion view it rather as context. Context is permissible, and in fact encouraged, under the MoS/Lead. In an article about, say, an industrial accident, it would likely be appropriate to note past safety incidents in the lead, if reliable sources have commented on them in their own coverage. In an article about an alleged (but unconfirmed) shark attack, it would be relevant to note whether or not sharks are found in the area, if (as here) reliable sources have commented on it. I am on board with merging the sentence into an existing paragraph, but I think it is relevant context for the lead. (As an aside, I do not necessarily agree that it's logically irrelevant. But again, inclusion here is not about evidencing a particular POV) WillowCity (talk) 23:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I see it has been removed from the lede; I think that is a good decision, as the important of it and the coverage has received doesn't indicate that such a prominent position is WP:DUE. BilledMammal (talk) 10:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It is not on face evidence. Readers may interpret it as such but we don't write articles around interpretation, we only write them for NPOV. Important context is always useful to include, as it is informative and the primary goal is to inform readers. Ashvio (talk) 01:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

A few sentences down, the prior rocket fire damage is already mentioned and cited.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 23:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Time to start saying it was a Palestinian rocket?

At this stage, we seems to be moving more and more towards the position being it was a Palestinian rocket that misfired. I don't really count the Israeli claim (obvious bias) but both the US and France intelligence seem to have independently reached the conclusion that it was a failed rocket. Obviously we'll never have an admission of guilt from Islamic Jihad, nor the twittersphere of opinionated individuals (goes for both sides, I'm not pointing fingers at one side), but for at least 48 hours now, it seems that every RS expressing an opinion seems to say it was likely a Palestinian rocket. If we are serious about NPOV, we may need to start to reflect that in the article. (BTW: This is a thread to open a discussion about it, not to rush to any immediate change in the article). Jeppiz (talk) 21:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

There's already several threads about this and it's clear there's no consensus in the media on what caused the explosion, in fact new independent reports are coming out with evidence it could have been Israel still. Please remain patient and wait for the evidence to solidify before rushing to push the article in a direction we may not be able to defend with NPOV. I believe we also don't consider governments allied with Israel to be independent sources since they have a conflict of interest (heavy investments into Israel and allyship) Ashvio (talk) 21:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jeppiz See here: https://www.channel4.com/news/human-rights-investigators-raise-new-questions-on-gaza-hospital-explosion Orgullomoore (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is premature. Selfstudier (talk) 22:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It is indeed premature. We need to wait until there is a conclusive finding shared among RS, if there ever is one. This may need a formal discussion based upon the high stakes of this topic. ‡ El cid, el campeador 22:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Selfstudier and El Cid, you're probably right. Better we give it a bit more time. Jeppiz (talk) 22:45, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

"we seems to be moving more and more towards the position being it was a Palestinian rocket"

No we are not moving in this direction at all, the emerging facts largely contradict israeli claims. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

More independent research from AP came out today, doing a thorough analysis and concluding it was not Israel. All of the RS published now concludes it was a failed missile and not from israel. Apart from AJ, who else is saying anything to the contrary? 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it can be a fallacy to say "only AJ" says anything to the contrary. Many non western media does not support the theory Palestine was the cause, but it may be hard for EN Wiki editors to have that context. There is an underrepresentation in my opinion of non western media in the RS list (which is possibly unavoidable since many of them are exclusively non-English), so we should not underemphasize that AJ represents a large chunk of media.

There are also RS in the west who do not report it as definitively caused by Palestine either. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/al-ahli-baptist-hospital-bombing-gaza_n_6532d595e4b00f9a71cc6e03 Ashvio (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that fewer and fewer sources still follow the invisible Israeli aircraft with tiny bomb theory, but this is going to need to go through an rfc. Cursed Peace (talk) 01:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It certainly does not need to. Consensus should be quite clear. Andre🚐 05:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Consensus among the sources is pretty clear. 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that reliable sources have largely reached a consensus. I think there's a balance issue in the article by not acknowledging this, along with not acknowledging the role of misinformation and the motivations behind invested parties in pushing narratives; this is also in the sources and yet no one is willing to acknowledge it in this article for some reason, not even a single sentence with a link to the separate article on disinformation in this war. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 23:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Of course either side will deny responsibility. I personally wouldn't trust the radical groups such as Islamic Jihad and Hamas the most, as they would use lies and deceit to further their game. As you said, since both the US and France intelligence have concluded that it was a failed rocket from the Palestinian groups, we should begin to list them as the (sole) perpetrators. Yucalyptus (talk) 02:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You can personally think whatever you want, what really matters is the mounting evidence of independent investigation. Statements by State actors are not reliable as matters of fact. Especially if both of them are clearly politically involved in the situation. It would be completely wrong to change the status of dispute to some partial conclusion. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Still very early, there are already many people immediately jumping to the conclusion that it was a misfired rocket. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 04:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

They immediately jumped to the conclusion, falsely, that Israel fired it. Experts have now determined it was a rocket that was fired from inside Palestinian territory. Andre🚐 05:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There is not conclusion, many experts say the contrary. Please, provide reliable sources. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The sources, AP and Der Spiegel, were in the article already and are provided here. Andre🚐 20:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It is no longer premature; it is time to make this factual due to experts in RS. We can still attribute it, though. Andre🚐 05:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yep, I agree. This latest AP piece shows that it's pretty much unanimous consensus at this point. Only Al Jazeera says they find "no grounds" to support the Palestinian rocket theory. Channel 4 pokes a few holes in the launch point, trajectory, and audio recording proffered by Israel, but they also poke holes in the Israeli payload theory. Everybody else is like: "Can't say for sure, but most likely explanation is that this was a misfired rocket."-- Orgullomoore (talk) 06:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The Channel 4 claims regarding the trajectory appear not to account for the fact that the rocket was clearly observed to change its trajectory during its failure. This remains original research for now, but hopefully a reliable source can be found that addresses the trajectory before impact in the context of the change in trajectory observed in flight. StuartH (talk) 09:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. If it was launched into the north/east, and then spun out, the fact that the projectile was coming from east of the mobile phone just before it hit the ground is not inconsistent with it having been fired from west of the hospital. But yes, that's just our own original research for now.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, please, at this point there is a *clear* consensus in both the RS's and independent analyses. "What I have said to people, publicly, is: ‘Don’t assume it’s Israel. You have no proof that it’s Israel. Many people have made a clear case it’s not. At the very best, do not start propagating another blood libel." --Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby 192.138.178.105 (talk) 12:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think insinuating people who oppose your position are committing "blood libel" is going to help your case. There are still sources, though a minority in western media, suggesting Israel may have been responsible. Ashvio (talk) 13:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The Hamas rocket situation has been called a modern-day blood libel by a few observers. Andre🚐 17:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure it has, and observers have also called people who oppose Israel in the slightest terrorist supporters. Surely we can agree such discourse is unhelpful on Misplaced Pages. Ashvio (talk) 19:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

We document and attribute meaningful minority POVs even if we disagree with them. Andre🚐 19:57, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

In this context the "blood libel" quote appears to be implied as an attack on other editors who disagree with them on media consensus,not a suggestion for the article. Ashvio (talk) 19:59, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, the RS are saying that the Israeli airstrike explanation is less likely. I'm not advocating we place blood libel into any article text. Andre🚐 20:00, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what RS says, sure we can agree insinuating such insults on editors is disruptive..? Ashvio (talk) 20:03, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Who are you accusing of such insinuation. I am simply responding to the IP's point that there is a clear consensus in RS that the Israeli airstrike explanation is not likely. Some have called this a blood libel, in sources. I am not endorsing that. I am not assigning that to any editors. Andre🚐 20:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

What is the purpose of including the quote "What I have said to people, publicly, is: ‘Don’t assume it’s Israel. You have no proof that it’s Israel. Many people have made a clear case it’s not. At the very best, do not start propagating another blood libel." in a discussion about whether there is proof Israel committed the attack, other than to attack editors who disagree? Clearly it's not being suggested to be added to the article. Ashvio (talk) 20:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems very ambiguous. I suppose only the person who posted the comment could tell us. But we should assume it was said in good faith until that person says otherwise, no? This topic has brought a lot of emotional people out, ready to engage. Maybe let's focus on something more productive. Even if I disagree with some of the points you've made on this talk page, Ashvio, you have been focused. Let's not worry about a single ambiguous and potentially unproductive comment. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Ooof--I can see how it sounded that way but I was in no way intending to make that insinuation, only to provide this remarkable comment--I actually believe his comments have a place in this article in one of the sections collating responses from various sources. I actually think the comment and the whole "blood libel" thing goes too far and even approaches Godwin's Law territory but that said, I don't agree at all that there is not a consensus at this point. Virtually every truly RS and evidence based independent analysis--even from sources not at all predisposed towards Israel's behavior or trustworthiness, etc--has found they have no choice but to conclude that in this case the evidence just isn't indeterminate and points pretty conclusively in one direction. 192.138.178.107 (talk) 01:01, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I must agree with this IP. Andre🚐 01:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

(Statement of the obvious): it's not the role of an online encyclopaedia to make some kind of definitive judgement on a widely disputed issue, especially one so recent as to still be in the primary reporting stage. The article should simply note in appropriately encyclopaedic terms the various theories relevant to the dispute with due weight to the number, reliability and nature of sources.

As an equally obvious addition, this particular event is packed with commentators on both sides making bold pronouncements about "what really happened." It would be wise to be a little cautious about reporting from either perspective until there is more distance from the event itself. - Euryalus (talk) 06:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not in any rush, but I think if you take the time to go through the sources, you will find it difficult to find anything reliable pointing to an Israeli airstrike. There is AJ, which, let's face it, hates Israel (and has no shortage of reasons to hate Israel--and Israel hates AJ too). Other than that, you have the "I don't know because I would need more information" and the knee-jerk "Israel did it" reactions from the Arab World + Iran et al., who are desperate to believe that. I do think there's wisdom in waiting, though. Maybe we should go when Canada goes and don't oppose waiting. It's been like 3.5 days since the explosion.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 06:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The consensus is indeed clear in the sources it was a Palestinian-originating rocket, not an Israeli airstrike. All experts such as a neutral Swedish weaponry expert to Der Spiegel. It's in the article. and not at all unclear anymore. Andre🚐 06:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Currently we have a whole paragraph full of RS and original research (unrelated to Israel's or Hamas's claims). Even more RS coming out every hour that supports the claim it was a misfire. Like this research by Intel France. There isn't a single contradicting RS that supports the airstrike claim. Article needs to be updated. dov (talk) 11:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. Andre🚐 16:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Concur. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Well that didn't take long. Canada has arrived.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 03:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Even better would be a moratorium on threads suggesting that the article be worded to say one side or the other is known to have caused this. We don't have enough information, it's an emerging topic, and it's an important topic to be impartial about. —DIYeditor (talk) 09:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, we should report the findings of reliable sources and not make our own summaries. Producing our own analysis is original research. If the preponderance of sources say one thing, just report them and let readers draw their own conclusion. We shouldn’t summarize unless an RS itself does so. Drsmoo (talk) 11:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I would say wait until nearly all the major "factions" of the world (and their media) are either silent on the topic or agree. There's absolutely no need to rush to have this have some particular phrasing about facts. —DIYeditor (talk) 11:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. A moratorium would not contribute to impartiality but would decrease agility and insulate the article's biases, misinformation, or outdated content from constructive improvements. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 23:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

oppose moratorium. Andre🚐 16:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

if you oppose a moratorium, why remove my thread? Ashvio (talk) 22:28, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's appropriate to wait and not rush to a conclusion, as @Selfstudier et al have suggested. What's the hurry? Misplaced Pages doesn't lead; we follow. I support the moratorium; at the appropriate time, and bearing in mind the extreme contentiousness of this area, an RFC would almost certainly be the best course of action. WillowCity (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose RFC, as it's not necessary to resolve anything. We should be able to resolve this through normal discussion. All experts, the AP, and other reliable sources have established at this point that it was a Palestinian rocket, not an Israeli airstrike. WP:NODEADLINE, yes. But Misplaced Pages would not be leading by incorporating this reliably sourced consensus-of-experts info. Andre🚐 17:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Insist on that position, an RFC it will be. Selfstudier (talk) 17:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You are certainly welcome to revert or start an RFC, but it's not necessary in my view, since we have reliable sources. Andre🚐 17:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

That's a misrepresentation of the AP source in my view. AP specifically says, "A lack of forensic evidence and the difficulty of gathering that material on the ground in the middle of a war means there is no definitive proof the break-up of the rocket and the explosion at the hospital are linked." And Wired has commented on criticism of the rush to judgment by many OSINT analysts on social and news media: "In the days since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, people claiming to be OSINT practitioners have emerged on social media who are much more willing to make conclusive findings almost immediately than people who have a long history of conducting OSINT work." WillowCity (talk) 17:44, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

OK, take a look at the text I inserted. Andre🚐 17:47, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I feel strongly that someone should revert pending discussion and consensus, unless we propose to include AJ and the Forensic Architecture investigation in the lead as well. It's also unclear whether the experts are "impartial" as currently stated, they include "a retired U.S. Army colonel", "a former U.S. Army intelligence analyst". Calling them impartial is editorializing, in my view, since not even AP uses this term. Let the readers draw their own conclusions on that point. As well, "more likely" (presumably, preponderance of evidence/balance of probabilities) seems insufficient to merit inclusion in the lead; we're shading into WP:EXCEPTIONAL with that one. WillowCity (talk) 17:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm happy to remove the term impartial if that is a sticking point. Andre🚐 18:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It's a sticking point but there are so many issues with this. Like one of the sources you link above, Variety, is (as noted on RSPSS) a trade publication; if the dispute was whether Cate Blanchett hired a new talent agent, that would be perfect, but for something like this? And the lead says that the experts "concluded", but the party doing the concluding is AP, which is one source. Big wp:undue and wp:npov issues with this. I really think we need broader consensus prior to inclusion (see also WP:ONUS). WillowCity (talk) 18:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I just offered Variety because it discusses the BBC retraction. Did you read it? It's not used in the article, it's for you to read and understand. If you really want a different source for the BBC saga, I'll find one, but there was nothing at issue in that one. You're also just doing policy word salad now . Yeah, ONUS and NPOV and DUE/UNDUE all support this. AP’s assessment is supported by a range of experts with specialties in open-source intelligence, geolocation and rocketry Andre🚐 18:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I did read it, and I read BBC's retraction itself, which did not assign blame one way or the other. The retraction of preliminary BBC reporting based on inconclusive evidence is not conclusive evidence as to the actual perpetrator of the attack. WillowCity (talk) 18:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm mainly bringing the AP experts and Der Spiegel. That's what's mentioned in the lead. Andre🚐 18:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

"Word salad"? That's not very nice. I think the policies cited are relevant, and I don't think your revision complies with them, but that's for the community to decide, not you or I alone. WillowCity (talk) 18:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I'll strike that. Andre🚐 18:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I've tagged this thread on WP:RSN. We do not need an RFC yet. See WP:RFCBEFORE. Andre🚐 18:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

So… you want it all reverted because Variety was used as a source then? That’s all you pointed out. 2605:B100:919:E985:8131:1983:4ADA:2A49 (talk) 22:21, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You must have missed the entire second half of my comment, which (1) disputed the use of "concluded" based on the cited sources (2) pointed out that reliance on two sources is undue in the lead for such a controverted topic, and (3) emphasized the lack of consensus. WillowCity (talk) 23:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah i’d disagree. It borders on absurd levels of ignoring consensus among sources. Al jazeera, the one known to be biased with israel/palestine conflict.

At this point we have multiple sources pointing to the fact that israel did not do this. AP, BBC, US intelligence agencies, french intelligence agencies all came to the same conclusion. 2605:B100:939:225B:5401:E9FC:4BC5:28F5 (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

This IP is correct sort of. If AJ is the lone outlier and they are citing Hamas themselves, that should be attributed as an outlier, and the consensus of AP, BBC, intelligence from US and France, then that should be the primary weighted statement (which can be attributed too, of course, out of an abundance of caution and NPOV) Andre🚐 21:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The Forensic Architecture source refers to the IDF as the “IOF”, a pejorative. Are they listed as a reliable source on Wiki, because that alone suggests unreliability. Drsmoo (talk) 23:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Forensic Architecture is part of the University of London. Not sure if they are published enough to have an RS discussion but editors in the previous discussion seemed to believe it was reliable. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AAl-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion#New_third_party_independent_source_claiming_missile_came_from_direction_of_Israel Ashvio (talk) 23:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The sentence was removed by someone else. The sentence is as follows: Weapons experts and intelligence analysts surveyed by the AP and Der Spiegel have analyzed and concluded the Palestinian rocket explanation was more likely than the airstrike explanation. Andre🚐 21:58, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose in view of e.g. doubts cast on the authenticity of the Arabic phone conversation produced by the IDF. PatGallacher (talk) 22:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  That phone call isn't why 99% of reliable sources have attributed it to the PIJ. Other than fringe conspiracy stuff, can you provide a source attributing the explosion to anyone other than the PIJ? Cursed Peace (talk) 23:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  There have been several sources provided that do not attribute it to PIJ, so please stop badgering people with untrue claims. Thanks. nableezy - 23:41, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  Tell you what, give me the best three. Nobody else is willing to share reliable sources that haven't been retracted. I keep hearing about them, and would love to see a reliable attribution to this being an airstrike. I will reply with /10/ links attributing the attack on the hospital to the PIJ. Does this sound like an acceptable method to you? Will 10 to 1 be a significant enough ratio to help establish the consensus of RSN? Cursed Peace (talk) 23:55, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Auto archiving

Would it be useful to set up auto-archiving on the talk page? David O. Johnson (talk) 23:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely!-- Orgullomoore (talk) 00:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

agreed this place is becoming hard to follow. we should also coalesce the different threads talking about the same thing into one Ashvio (talk) 00:01, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It looks like the autoarchive is already set up to archive "after 1 day of inactivity." David O. Johnson (talk) 00:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Finally! -- Orgullomoore (talk) 08:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I saw it in the History and was just gobsmacked. Lol. David O. Johnson (talk) 08:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

"Hamas stated that Israel deliberately shelled the hospital."

@Orgullomoore:

In this edit, you changed The Gaza Health Ministry said the explosion was caused by an Israeli airstrike into Hamas accused Israel of deliberately shelling the hospital.

What source is the changed statement based on? (Shelling and airstrikes are very different things.) Regards, HaeB (talk) 08:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I changed it. Andre🚐 17:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@HaeB I was just translating Hamas directly (they use قصف), but on reflection, I think you're right that it should say airstrike. It appears قصف is used more loosely in Arabic than shelling in English.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 20:03, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Literally it means bombardment with artillery, but the word قصف has been used as a sort of blanket statement for bombardment, in this case airstrikes The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 02:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"Background" sentence about other attacks on medical facilities

I removed content that basically said "guilty by purported association", i.e., it's not based on any evidence but on an opinion:

"Before the explosion at the hospital, the World Health Organization said Israel had attacked health facilities in Gaza 51 times.

My removal was reverted, and the sentence later expanded expanded to this version:

Prior to the explosion at the hospital, the World Health Organization said Israel had attacked health facilities in the Gaza Strip 51 times, killing 15 hospital workers and injuring 27 others, since 7 October.

The headline of the cited UN source says, "UN chief 'horrified' by strike on Gaza hospital, as warring sides blame each other". The USA Today paragraph: Since the attacks began on Oct. 7, there have been more than 115 attacks on healthcare centers across occupied Palestinian territory, according to the WHO. Fifty-one occurred in the Gaza Strip, with 15 hospital workers killed and 27 injured. The other incidents happened in the West Bank, officials said. The sources didn't support our versions, whether it's the initial one or the expanded version. Current version:

The World Health Organization said that since October 7 there were 51 attacks on health facilities in the Gaza Strip, killing 15 hospital workers and injuring 27 others.

Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 13:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes that is original research Drsmoo (talk) 13:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, sentence has no place here. Some users objected to a sentence saying that Hamas had previously used hospitals to store ammunition as irrelevant. By the same logic, this is equally irrelevant. Jeppiz (talk) 13:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Unless sources explicitly link this material to the article subject, it should not be included. There is plenty of sourcing for an article about Israeli attacks on medical facilities, though.Selfstudier (talk) 17:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't write NPOV around what conclusions people might take from an analysis of the verifiable facts. The context of hospital attacks is relevant and important context that must be included. Ashvio (talk) 22:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Why are these previous attacks relevant to this event? To provide corroboration for the possibility that this explosion may have the same cause. I see no other reason for their inclusion.

So what you're arguing is that you can include information based on an unstated conclusion, knowing this will lead a reader to a certain conclusion, but as long as you argue that you aren't considering readers' potential conclusions, you aren't leading a reader by the inclusion of said information? Inmymoonsuit (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The article on the Kennedy assassination includes the phrase: "In 1963, Kennedy decided to travel to Texas to smooth over frictions in the state's Democratic Party between liberal U.S. Senator Ralph Yarborough and conservative Governor John Connally." By your logic, this should be stricken as leading readers to conclude that Kennedy was killed as a result of internal strife within the Texas Democratic party. An encyclopedia article is allowed to discuss relevant background information for context. WillowCity (talk) 03:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

How is any of that relevant to the PIJ hitting a hospital with a rocket in a friendly fire attack? We could probably provide a list of other rocket misfires to build up context. But since this is unrelated to air strikes, I don't see how they are relevant. Cursed Peace (talk) 03:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

You're just begging the question; your comment treats the PIJ theory as a foregone conclusion. And as it stands, rocket misfires are already noted. My point in referencing other articles is to note that Misplaced Pages policy, if applied consistently, weighs against the reasoning above. It's known as "analogy". WillowCity (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm summarizing what reliable sources say currently. Nobody except for partisans are claiming Israel was involved here. We don't need to aim for falsebalance and pretend an airstrike by an invisible and untrackable airplane is a realistic theory. Cursed Peace (talk) 03:14, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I second the point about false balance. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 15:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The Kennedy sentence quoted by you is comparable to the sentence saying that The hospital sheltered around 6,000 displaced persons, with around 1,000 in the hospital courtyard, i.e., both saying why people were where they were. The sentence about prior airstrikes is analogous to the Kennedy background sentence, As president, he authorized operations to overthrow Fidel Castro's communist government in Cuba; these culminated in the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion in 1961. Neither one is relevant to the subject of the respective article. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 13:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. Much more accurate analogy. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether 24-hr BRD applies here but it's been more than 24 hours. The editor who reverted my removal hasn't weighed in although they have edited on this page, five editors agree with the removal, two oppose it, so I'll go ahead and remove the sentence. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 20:09, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Calls for an independent investigation

The article does note that the UN has called for an independent investigation. But I think under "Aftermath" or "Reactions", it would be appropriate to have a few sentences (or possibly a subsection) about calls for an independent investigation, since this has been raised by more than just the UN. Sources calling for an independent investigation:

- European Parliament ("MEPs call for an independent investigation into the Al-Ahli hospital blast in Gaza")

- Amnesty UK ("attack on Al Ahli hospital in Gaza must be independently investigated")

- The Independent ("Irish deputy premier calls for independent probe into Gaza hospital strike")

- Khaleej Times ("The UAE has called for a full, independent investigation into the bombing of Al Ahli Baptist hospital...")

Another potentially relevant source:

- Politico ( stressed: 'It is important that this incident is investigated very thoroughly.") WillowCity (talk) 17:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I would condense it to one sentence, until and unless such investigation starts. Calling for an independent investigation is cheap. Alaexis_¿question? 19:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:RSN note

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Are_Hamas_and_Gaza_ministry_numbers_reliable? Andre🚐 18:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Article source

The source currently cited for "U.S., Experts Say Evidence Suggests Palestinian Rocket Hit Gaza Hospital" is The Wall Street Journal. While the WSJ site is the original source the citation link leads to the WSJ article at MSN Shouldn't the citation be something like The Wall Street Journal via MSN? If MSN is cited perhaps its shorter URL should be used. Could the WSJ URL be cited as well? Mcljlm (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Does this diff address what you're talking about? The issue with linking to WSJ is that it is completely paywalled off, whereas MSN gives you the full text without a paywall, and also allows archive.org to save the text for when the link dies. I'm not aware of a way to also link the paywalled WSJ URL while at the same time preserving the MSN URL. Anybody else have a comment on this?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 23:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm aware Orgullomoore of the WSJ paywall problem {similarly with many other quality sources} and also that many articles are at MSN and sometimes republished by other newspapers. On WP I've tended to use the original URL for readers able to access the article at source adding (creating if necessary) an archived URL.

I see you've added "via MSN", but what about the shorter URL. There's also an archived MSN version if it's wanted. Mcljlm (talk) 01:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on how to decide when "consensus" is reached and is no longer "contested"

AP news conducted a comprehensive analysis and concluded the cause of the explosion was a Palestinian rocket.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-hospital-rocket-gaza-e0fa550faa4678f024797b72132452e3?taid=653359761b640e00010945be

AP is a respectable and credible source. Ignoring its analysis and the analysis of many additional credible sources will only prove that Misplaced Pages is led by politics, not seeking facts and truths. 2A0D:6FC7:441:E1CA:878:5634:1232:5476 (talk) 05:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Not ignored. Thoroughly explained in the article .-- Orgullomoore (talk) 05:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Canada's defence minister says that according to its intelligence, Israel didn’t attack the hospital

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7004384 81.199.249.196 (talk) 06:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Got it-- Orgullomoore (talk) 06:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Addition in India's Reaction

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Addition to the "Reactions" section : "Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi spoke to the Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to convey condolences at the loss of civilian lives at Al Ahli hospital in Gaza."

Source: https://www.livemint.com/news/world/pm-modi-speaks-to-palestinian-authority-president-mahmoud-abbas-conveys-condolences-for-gaza-hospital-blast-victims-11697720334056.html Saket Sharma (talk) 07:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox switch from "disputed" to "probably"

I've switched the infobox from "disputed" to "probably PIJ"; the previous version has had a growing WP:NPOV issue, as it presents the two claims as if they are equal, but they are not - reliable and independent sources are consistently stating that the cause was probably the PIJ. BilledMammal (talk) 10:40, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

As long as all major sources do not come to a singular consensus, or until an actual invistigataion happens (like the one that UN called for), I think the other option should be included to some extent, no matter how unprobable you think it is. Imagemafia (talk) 11:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

It should be included in the body, but to include it in the infobox would go against WP:DUE. BilledMammal (talk) 11:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I see, however I think that such a recent and still quite controversial event is a completely different subject than the "flat earth" example listed in WP:DUE, and therefore the Israel option should still be listed in the infobox with some disclaimer, the adjective "alleged" would be enough, because at least to me it holds a lesser value than "probably". The view is still held by a significant minority which does have some sources for it, they are even listed in the article. So unless we want to directly put an opinion piece as one of the first things a reader will see, then "propably PIJ" shouldn't be the only thing in there. Imagemafia (talk) 11:37, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure how I feel about using "probably" verbiage based on a single source in infobox. There are still many sources reporting it as contested. I agree keeping it in infobox and body for now is appropriate. Ashvio (talk) 11:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose I still believe my claim is correct Imagemafia (talk) 13:18, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

No, your claim is incorrect, and violates core WP policies. You claim above we need to have "all major sources" come to a consensus. That is the opposite of what WP:NPOV says. So regardless of what the infobox here should say, you claim is wrong. Jeppiz (talk) 13:23, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, you are definitely much more experienced than me so I'll believe you, it still makes no sense though. Imagemafia (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jeppiz where exactly does it say so in WP:NPOV, because I couldn't find anything that would fit the current circumstances and support what you've said. Imagemafia (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

That's just not correct. Make an argument based in policy for this please; because the consensus among the sources is that it was probably Hamas and not israel. That's pretty clear. We don't need literally every source to say that; if we did literally everything would be disputed. We've reached a point where you can't argue against this on the basis of the sources imo. They're pretty clear, with more analyses coming out on a daily basis supporting Israel's position, with a curious lack of sources contradicting israel's position coming out daily. Chuckstablers (talk) 23:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• oppose. per @Imagemafia

Chafique (talk) 12:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support as per WP:RS and WP:NPOV. I was among those saying we should not assume blame based on RS reporting that Biden said so, and needed to wait for RS saying so in their own voice. That's where we are now; we have multiple reliable sources confirming in their own voice that it was Islamic Jihad. NPOV is clear we should report the majority view in reliable sources, not pretend there's a false balance when there is none. Jeppiz (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  we also have about 3-4 reliable sources saying the absolute opposite, and even within those who you agree with they usually also add that it's not definitive. Imagemafia (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  Which ones exactly? Chuckstablers (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• This has not been backed up by reliable sources, they are still reporting accusations and claims, not stating anything as a fact. nableezy - 13:21, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• And yes Channel 4 citing Earshot disputing this is an independent analysis quoted in a reliable source. You cant just ignore the sources that dont follow what you think, and you cant state as a fact what reliable sources dispute. nableezy - 13:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Wrong on most accounts. For example, Wall Street Journal (see link below) state as a fact that it was a failed Palestinian rocket, directly disproving your claim. Channel 4 does report a contrary position to most reliable sources, that part is true. It should also be covered in the article, as a WP:MINORITY view. Pretending there is some form of balance in reliable sources between saying it was Israel or Islamic Jihad is simply incorrect. As per NPOV, if one view is the clear majority view, then articles should reflect that (and also provide space for a notable minority view, which this article should do). Jeppiz (talk) 13:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, some sources say one thing and other sources say another thing. And despite the dog-whistles above, al-Jazeera remains a reliable source, forget about them? An infobox taking one of those things as fact is a violation of NPOV. And re-reverting a contested change is edit-warring. Thanks. nableezy - 13:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

] applies to you as well. Already covered all you say. Here it goes again. Sure, some sources say A and some say B, but there is nothing even close to a 50-50 split. I already said the minority should be represented in the article, as it already is. As for your idea that it's fine for you to do a revert on a contested matter but a problem if someone else reverts you, I'll just leave it at that. Jeppiz (talk) 13:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The infobox is supposed to be a summary of the article, not a place for statements of fact that are disputed. Second, that is not what I said about reverting. Somebody made a bold change, it was challenged, and instead of gaining consensus it is edit-warred back in. See if you can follow that sequence before leaving it at that. nableezy - 13:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Nableezy: Please check out CNN, AFP, AP, and WSJ and let me know if you still think this. Channel 4 and Forensic Architecture (which, as noted in an analysis published today in WaPo, "are no friends of the IDF") actually do not contradict the analyses of AP and WSJ. The projectile did in fact approach from the east, after the motor crapped out and the rocket spun around. CNN observed that the direction of the rocket at the time of the impact would not be conclusive because, after it starts spinning, you cannot predict its path. With respect to AJ, their conclusion is only that they find "no grounds" for IDF's account. And while I agree that AJ is generally reliable, as it has been pointed out ad nauseum here and elsewhere, they are inevitably skewed against IDF (and for excellent reasons). Consider the fact that one of AJ's prominent field journalists was murdered by IDF, and that the Israeli government recently voted to shut down AJ's Israel bureau. AJ immediately called this an airstrike, and still (correct me if I'm wrong) has not made any sort of statement like: "We reported this as fact, when in reality we do not know; sorry, that's bad journalism and we will do better."-- Orgullomoore (talk) 16:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, because healthy democracies silence press agencies. I dont think that argument is quite what youre looking for here. nableezy - 19:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Nableezy: I didn't say or intend to imply that Israel is a healthy democracy. I was just pointing out that AJ can hardly be expected to maintain objectivity when they have been repeatedly attacked by Israel. More importantly, did you review the analyses I linked to?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 20:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I did, but they are disputed by both al-Jazeera and what Channel 4 cited. When reliable sources are in dispute we cant make statements of fact, at that point it is an issue of conflicting viewpoints that need to have due weight given to each. Yes, the weight is tilted towards Palestinian rocket failure, but not to the point where it is a statement of fact. I dont find any merit in the claims against al-Jazeera, it is a reliable source with a solid reputation among other reliable sources, and I find the effort to expunge one of the few Arab based sources used in this topic area to be incredibly distasteful and insidious to the entire idea of NPOV. nableezy - 20:25, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Nableezy: OK. Thank you for reviewing and responding. Now, let's take this one by one.

1. Channel 4: What they say is that the projectile came from the east. How is that disputing CNN, AP, and WSJ--all of whom agree the projectile came from the east?
2. AJ: Can we at least agree that it was error for AJ to immediately report that Israel struck a hospital and that they still have not retracted that?

-- Orgullomoore (talk) 20:30, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Al jazeera, as of October 18 says The health ministry in Gaza said the blast at the hospital was caused by an Israeli air raid. Israel has attributed the explosion to a misfired rocket launched by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) armed group. The PIJ has denied the allegation.

Al Jazeera was not able to independently verify the accounts. Im not sure what youre looking from them, they pretty clearly are not saying that Israel hit the hospital, only that they cannot independently verify either claim. Channel 4 does more than say that it came from the east, they also say the supposed intercepted phone conversation was manipulated and not coming from a single phone call, and at the very least lacks any type of evidentiary value. And they are still saying that the issue is inconclusive. Here, laying all the cards on the table, I think it was likely a Palestinian rocket that failed. But I also do not think that the sourcing supports that so solidly as to put it as a statement of fact in the article much less dumb it down to "probably a Palestinian rocket" in the infobox. When sources are in conflict we do not decide by fiat that the Western ones win. nableezy - 20:42, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Nableezy–

1. AJ coverage Please take a look at this Arabic-language article published on 2023-10-17 and updated on 2023-10-18. The headline is: "Widespread Arab and international condemnation of the Baptist Hospital massacre." The first sentence is "International and human rights condemnation of the Israeli military's strike in the vicinity of the Ahli Baptist Hospital in the Gaza Strip–which left 500 dead, according to the Gaza Health Ministry–continued on Tuesday evening." Notice that it only attributes the death count to Hamas, but not the purported fact that it was Israel who "struck" the hospital's vicinity, which they say in their own voice. Even if you're not able to read Arabic, Google Translate and/or ChatGPT can confirm this.
2. Purported recording I agree that the purported call recording is dubious. I wish there were more RS reporting on that. That's something AJ could easily contribute to the story, having ready access to Arabic speakers. Channel 4 merely said that they talked to two "Arab-speaking" journalists who thought the vocabulary, syntax, accent and tone were not credible. I wish we had: "John Doe, native Gazan and Arabic professor at X University, opined that a, b, c, and d, were inconsistent with an authentic conversation between Hamas members." Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything like that. The closest I've seen is this Twitter thread (of course not a RS, but at least based on specifically articulated points and having a name behind it--i.e., someone who has credibility to lose if they're wrong). However, assuming IDF put out a fake recording, that does not mean they struck a hospital. Personally (not that it matters), I was shocked to see such a flimsy piece of evidence put out there. Even if it were authentic, if I were the IDF, I would not volunteer that recording because it smells fake. Their case is stronger without it. But alas, nobody asked me. I think it is perfectly possible that the IDF unnecessarily put out a fake recording.

Orgullomoore (talk) 21:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

We are not citing al-Jazeera's Arabic coverage so I see no reason to look at that or the relevance of it. nableezy - 21:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Nableezy: You recently said that you find the effort to expunge one of the few Arab based sources used in this topic area to be incredibly distasteful and insidious to the entire idea of NPOV, but now you are saying that the Arabic-language coverage is irrelevant. I find it completely relevant that the very same news organization is saying one thing in Arabic and another in English. Why should we treat them like two separate entities? Or are they separate?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 21:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Al Jazeera English and Arabic are two totally separate news channels with separate coverage, journalists and everything else. They are functionally more or less irrelevant to each other. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Arab based is not Arabic, and yes they are separate with separate editorial structures. nableezy - 21:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Good to know. I guess at this point all I can say is I found AJ's coverage on this particular event to be rushed and biased and uncritical of Hamas, and WP:CONTEXTMATTERS when evaluating reliability. I appreciate you engaging in dialogue and remaining civil.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 22:01, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I think something like Forensic Architecture based at Goldsmiths, University of London is potentially the sort of independent source we should be looking for. Given the explicit military alliance between the U.S. and Israel, I find sources that quote experts with close ties to the US government and military far less compelling; they are more like primary than true secondary sources. (Also, do you think this is the sound of a rocket with a "crapped out" motor, spinning and following an "unpredictable path" to the ground?) Andreas JN466 18:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on what a rocket sounds like when it's crashing to the ground. Fortunately, I've never been anywhere near one. The Forensic Architecture analysis is consistent with the CNN, AP, and WSJ analyses, which all conclude that the projectile made impact in an east-to-west direction.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:41, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Or erm, "falling debris", ho ho ... debris apparently in a real big hurry ... Iskandar323 (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Not comfortable with "probably" for something like this. As it is, Channel 4 and Aljazeera seem unconvinced by the Israeli briefing; even the BBC says "inconclusive" and notes an inconsistency. Let's just say it is unclear, or disputed; that's the more responsible thing to do. --Andreas JN466 15:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

There is no consensus reached among sources, and even the sources that said “it is likely a rocket failure” didn’t deny the possibility or scenario of IDF airstrike. So there is no basis to removing IDF from the infobox. Also something i have to note here is that some kind of sources cherrypicking. Like when some people rejected the analysis that was published by TRT and anadolu agency, or when @Jeppiz rejected the analysis that supported israeli airstrike that channel 4 published arguing that “doesn't look reliable enough”, while at the same time posting the conclusions of a random twitter account called “Geolocated” that telegraph and many other western sources rushed out to cite. you can’t take both of these stances at the same time. I also suggest restoring the unbalanced tag warning to the article. Stephan rostie (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support 99% of reliable sources have no doubt about this. It would be wp:undue to put the claim that an invisible airplane that nobody saw dropped a tiny bomb as a plausible theory. Just look at the opposes above, they are citing a YouTube video and one other source that made provably false claims about the explosion. The supports can point at hundreds of sources now. Cursed Peace (talk) 16:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Support A vast consensus in the sources - from American and European, state and independent agents - exists. It is not reasonable to see the airstrike claim as anything other than a minority view. It is well past time to stop beating a dead horse for the sake of inculcating readers into a falsely balanced view of this event. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 16:22, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. I don't even think we need "probably". At this point, all intelligence agencies that have weighed in on this have said that it was not Israel. Almost all media analyses (e.g., BBC, CNN, WSJ) have said it was not Israel. Ditto for OSINT groups online. It should go without saying that Hamas and Hamas-controlled government agencies do not count as "reliable sources" on Misplaced Pages and should not be cited. We don't even use the New York Post because of its potential for bias... A proscribed terrorist group that massacred >1000 civilians just two weeks ago is obviously a less reliable source than the New York Post. At this point, saying that "Israel probably didn't bomb the hospital" is about as stupid as saying that "Canada probably didn't attack the USA on 9/11". It's obvious. Bueller 007 (talk) 16:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Not sure how this thread turned into a !vote, when nobody made a proposition that could be supported or opposed (as far as I can see), and if there were such a !vote, the 500/30 restriction would apply. In that case, the input of Imagemafia, Chafique, Cursed_Peace, and Inmymoonsuit would not be taken into consideration.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 16:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Orgullomoore i don't know i believe Chafique has started it and everyone else followed after. maybe there should be a vote though, even if just for the 30/500's so a consesus would be reached about this stupid thing. by the way if I've noticed correctly the infobox now has both of the options again. Imagemafia (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

At this point, anyone adding that an Israeli airstrike is a possibility is pushing wp:fringe claims Cursed Peace (talk) 16:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, one is reminded of the "Jews did WTC" 9/11 conspiracy theory. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:08, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Bueller 007 come on you don't seriously believe that the 3-4 sources that go against the israeli narrative are anti-semitic Imagemafia (talk) 17:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Did I say anti-Semitic or are you imagining things? Bueller 007 (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

you didn't say anything but I believe you've implied it, I may be wrong, focusing on this info war has taken its toll on my clear thinking, so I am sorry of accusing you, still don't agree though Imagemafia (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"Probably" is an unencyclopedic cop-out, we owe it to our readers to do better and to wait for greater clarity. @Nableezy, @Stephan rostie and @Imagemafia have made the point eloquently. Non-EC users seem to be trying to circumvent the typical RFC process; this should not be allowed, and the status quo ante should remain pending an RFC (in which I acknowledge I do not have standing to participate). WillowCity (talk) 16:54, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely not. There is no local consensus here, and nor should there be due to the ongoing lack of consensus in the sourcing. We don't provide probabilistic WP:CRYSTAL readings in wikivoice. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Iskandar323: When you say "local consensus," are you talking about among the Misplaced Pages community or among the experts? Just requesting clarification.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Orgullomoore: By local consensus, I mean here on this page, versus community consensus, i.e. via RFC, which is the appropriate format for seriously contested content issues. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Got it. Yeah, I think we will likely need an RfC in the near future. Although governmental intelligence agencies and something like 30 OSINT and munitions experts seem to support the Palestinian rocket theory as the most probable explanation, there has been resistance to allowing the article to reflect that consensus. Hopefully broader input via an RfC (and without the distraction of the accounts and IPs apparently created solely to comment on this issue) can help us reach a consensus locally (i.e., on Misplaced Pages).-- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:37, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I would also exclude Israel as a possible perpetrator from the infobox. This is actually proven at this point - based on collected evidence, including even video of a rocket changing its trajectory. My very best wishes (talk) 19:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  The only proven thing at this point is that the facts remain incredibly murky. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  The facts aren't murky at all. There are 0 reliable sources saying that anyone other than PIJ did it. The channel4 nonsense people are clinging to doesn't assign blame to anyone. We have a couple hundred sources saying its a misfired PIJ rocket, and you say that because a YouTube channel only mostly agrees with everyone else, nobody is sure? Its clear, and you need to provide multiple reliable sources attributing blame to anything other than the PIJ of you want your position not to be seen as fringe conspiracy mongering. Sources saying it wasn't PIJ, please. Cursed Peace (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  You are showing disruptive behavior, denying the value of many sources already presented in the article. Dont call anything 'nonsense', because such passionate partiality is not productive in discussions. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  Can you provide a reliable source saying it was Israel? I've read all about the YouTube guy and earshot, but nobody who has attributed thos explosion to anyone nit the PIJ

  Reliable sources saying it was a friendly fire kncidenr: over 100

  Reliable sources saying it was an Israeli airstrike: None

  Where is the controversy in reliable sources? Cursed Peace (talk) 23:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  Many counterpoints are already in the article, dont spam the discussion page with negligent statements. This is a disruptive behavior. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 03:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

  We are discussing reliable sources that say it was Israel. Specifically, do you have any? Cursed Peace (talk) 04:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. There are still a lot of open question about this strike. Misplaced Pages should not put its figure on the scale. Even the analyses that suggest IDF do not completely close the door on other hypotheses. We should wait until there is an objective analysis, ideally with people on the ground or until one side takes responsibility. Dhawk790 (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  What questions are there? Can you provide some sources? All of the wp:rs I can find claims it was a misfired rocket launched by the PIJ. Cursed Peace (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, there is little "probably" also because we have no real independent investigation on the ground.--Mhorg (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do you have any policy based argument for why we shouldn't summarize what wp:rs say, and instead say it's ambiguous? Cursed Peace (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, since a lot of questions remain, with new arguments both for and against israeli claim surfacing daily, the true is that it still dispute and Misplaced Pages must respect the reality of the situation. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support. While there can be no 100% certainty atm, the consensus is obvious. BBC Verify, RUSI, AP, The Guardian, Der Spiegel, CNN, Channel 4, WSJ and India Today all spoke with experts and all of them say that the more likely cause is a misfired rocket. In case this discussion evolves into an RfC, hope that responses like "I still believe my claim is correct" will not be taken into account. Alaexis_¿question? 21:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: I'm unsure, but I do think there is a false balance right now. I would recommend all to review WP:FALSEBALANCE, which this article might be affected of. — AdrianHObradors (talk) 21:29, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  I still think an important aspect of creating balance in this article is to acknowledge disinformation and to use the available sources which have already described the way in which an information war has affected the discussion around this event.

  https://www.npr.org/2023/10/19/1207173798/fake-accounts-old-videos-and-rumors-fuel-chaos-around-gaza-hospital-explosion

  https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gaza-hospital-misinformation-israel-hamas_n_65301c34e4b00565b62290cc

  https://www.wired.com/story/al-ahli-baptist-hospital-explosion-disinformation-osint/

  https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/misinformation-gaza-hospital-attack-1234856302/

  By including this necessary context, a more accurate, encyclopedic, and neutral overview of this event becomes easier to present.

  If we acknowledge that these arguments have been presented within the context of an information war, as the sources do, it becomes less significant that this article present any explanation as factual. We will have communicated to the reader the reality: this is a loaded and difficult topic to which any supposed definitive answer should be taken with a grain of salt.

  I implore editors here with permissions to edit this article to take this under consideration instead of letting this talk page decline further into us travelling in a circle while we beat a dead horse. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 21:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not familiar with the latest analysis being published, but are you suggesting that because some (4 left wing) sources think there is disinformation, that there are no facts to be found? I'm not suggesting this article state as a fact or likelihood any particular cause of the explosion, just not sure what your argument is. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

  My argument is that this article should acknowledge the role of disinformation campaigning in shaping the dialogue around this event, as the sources do. It's an important piece of context and a dimension that should be documented if we are actually interested in being fair and accurate in the information we're providing to readers. I believe this is more important than the article or info box communicating any position on who is the perpetrator of the event; it is more necessary to provide the air of uncertainty and suspicion that informs any discussion or conclusion about this. And that's what these and other (potentially even most in some small or large way) sources say.

  Imagine you are a completely uniformed person coming to Misplaced Pages for encyclopedic knowledge about this event and find no mention of the wartime disinformation and "fog of war" that is dominating and coloring this entire conversation.

  It would be a simple thing to write an explicit sentence on the matter and link to the article that already exists for disinformation in this war. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 00:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

SUPPORT. At this point almost every reliable source have come to the same conclusion. It's not disputed anymore. Apart from Al Jazeera, who ARE CLEARLY biased in this case (I don't know how you can argue against that), every reliable source has concluded this was a failed rocket from the hamas side. What's the ratio here before we accept this? Do we need 100 articles to 1 saying it wasn't Israel? Do we need 101? What's the cutoff here, because I'm not seeing any serious debate on the actual facts or the numbers.

If we keep it as is, we are lying to our readers about the general consensus on this amongst the reliable sources. There comes a point where a rational person has to reasses their beliefs in light of the evidence here. We're at that point. You don't even have to reassess your beliefs; you're free to continue believing this was Israel if you want. But we're not free here to just lie about the consensus amongst the sources. Because there is one and it isn't being accurately reflected in the article. Chuckstablers (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I dont understand why Aljazeera would be especially biased in this case, given that many of the others news sites have previous cases of disinformation complicity in matters of interest for Israel and United States. JoaquimCebuano (talk) 03:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

If we are !voting on this it should be an RFC and restricted to extended-confirmed accounts. nableezy - 00:15, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Nableezy is correct, people should stop !voting, this isn't an RFC... if someone wants to start an RFC, I guess there's been enough discussion now that it wouldn't be premature. On the other hand, if there's a reasonable current status quo in the article, no need for a new RFC unless there is something still at issue or if people are just continuing to discuss. Someone could definitely close this thread, without starting a new one, and that would probably be ok. Andre🚐 00:18, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 00:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I've opened a discussion at NPOVN. BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Britain’s channel 4 new analysis, different from its previous one, suggesting israeli airstrike and fabrication of israel proclaimed phone call

someone add it to the article, and also remove this “probably PIJ” in the infobox as there is no consensus among sources or clear cut evidence or official UN investigation until now. Revert it to “disputed” as it was.Chafique (talk) 11:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but most of what you write is wrong. First, Channel 4 has done no analysis; the YouTube clip reports an alleged analysis. Second, the organisation behind that analysis, "Earshot" seems very obscure. There is no information on it, no indication what expertise (if any) they have. (Third, I generally find YouTube clips to be less good sources than articles. If something is noticeable, it will be published in written WP:RS. Jeppiz (talk) 12:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

This is your own opinion/commentary, jeppiz, which does not matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:4041:4461:7600:9D2F:3F62:5A50:36E2 (talk) 14:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Jeppiz https://earshot.ngo/ it is an NGO like any other, nothing obscure about it, it's just fairly new but that's it Imagemafia (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

YouTube videos are as reliable as the publisher, which in this case is Channel 4, which anyone can challenge at WP:RSN, though I wouldn't bother. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

And the analysis in this video, taken with the WSJ analysis, supports the consensus anyway. It's not controversial. The impact came from the east or northeast, because the failed rocket changed trajectory once it became damaged. I don't object to either source being used. They seem especially reliable when viewed together. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

That is not at all what Channel 4 are saying. Andreas JN466 18:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

What do you contend they are saying? -- Orgullomoore (talk) 18:45, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I’ve reverted it, I don’t even know how such a rash edit stayed up for this long. Even the wording isn’t matching Misplaced Pages The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:29, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

The video is unavailable? Inmymoonsuit (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Washington Post covers this video and analysis

"A UK-based partner organization of Earshot, Forensic Architecture, conducted analysis of the impact crater. It found that the crater’s size and fragment spread indicated smaller projectile landing from the northeast — consistent with Earshot’s analysis, but not with the IDF account. Others will need to duplicate the findings for them to be verified, however — it’s clear from the track record of both organizations that they are no friends of the IDF.

On the evidence we have so far, Hamas’ claims of a deliberate Israeli airstrike on the hospital should be dismissed. The AP’s analysis of multiple videos provides by far the most plausible case for what happened, including that the massive fire that resulted from a small explosion would have been caused by unused rocket fuel. The Forensic Architecture suggestion that an artillery shell would also be consistent with the crater couldn’t explain the fire.

Uncertainty is normal in times of war, and it would take undeniable evidence to even begin to change minds in the Arab and Muslim world as to what happened at the hospital." Inmymoonsuit (talk) 15:56, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

That's not a WaPo news article. They printed a Bloomberg opinion. For some reason, that's mentioned below the opinion. The WSJ analysis explains why the rocket fragment came in from the east. Space4Time3Continuum2x (cowabunga) 22:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

A further WSJ analysis backing Israel released

Please add to the article Video Analysis Shows Gaza Hospital Hit By Rocket Meant for Israel | WSJ Lilijuros (talk) 12:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

the famously unbiased Wall Street Journal, lol. Might as well add Bloomberg News next. 2607:FEA8:A4E1:BC00:A947:B69D:C50C:2E07 (talk) 14:09, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

you better give a source backing what you just said. Lilijuros (talk) 15:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

WSJ is right-leaning but reliable. Andre🚐 19:57, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

I was writing about this but had power outage😅. Anyway- - -

And it categorically dismisses Al Jazeera's analysis too (1:54). I had raised doubts on Al Jazeera's analysis earlier also, I had asked to not consider Al Jazeera RS for this topic only at least (You can see ). No further comments on that from me. Experienced editors are better at deciding. But anyway, WSJ's analysis can get added now.

WSJ analyzed 4 cameras located at different angle capturing before and after shots of the incident . It noted that at around 6:59 PM (local time) a barrage of short-range rockets capable of travelling 12–25 miles (19–40 km) are launched from western Gaza towards North-east of Israel. Then 20 seconds later, a long-range rocket (according to experts) is launched towards North-eastern trajectory. 10 seconds after launch a tiny flash of light is seen, and the rocket starts to veer back west. The flash and change in trajectory are consistent with a "failed rocket", not with Israel's Iron Dome Defense System shooting it down. Weapons experts it spoke to say, "This change in trajectory is caused by the explosion of the rocket motor. In camera 3, the Al Jazeera footage facing east, we can see this minor explosion. Then a trail of fire spreads as the motor blast ruptures the rocket casing and ignites the fuel. The rocket heads west in the direction of Camera 3, with a hospital in its path. 15 seconds after launch, the rocket fails completely and breaks apart. There's a small explosion on the ground, then a second larger explosion at the side of the hospital. A nearby resident captures the moment of impact facing northwest toward the hospital. Fire engulfs the courtyard and burns for an extended period. Experts said, "The large fire is likely due to the amount of fuel still left in the rocket just after launch." Explosives experts who reviewed the blast footage and photos of the aftermath also concluded that the failed rocket was the cause of the explosion on the ground. The crater shows an impact pattern coming from the east in line with a rocket's path. The shallowness of the crater is also consistent with impact from a failed rocket. WSJ noted that failed rockets are "not unknown" to long standing conflict between Isarel and Hamas. `~ᴀɴᴋʀᴀᴊ ɢɪʀɪ🎇✨ 15:55, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Ankraj_giri: The WSJ piece is already in the article -- Orgullomoore (talk) 16:25, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Orgullomoore, WSJ has done excellent analysis by using many data from different sources. Thanks, we gave it one line mention which was all that required. Jokes apart, I have written extensive paragraph of it, which in my opinion may need to be placed at start of sub-section misfire rocket theory. Why I say that? All other works by diff media organizations were done in pieces. They all didn't conclude many things which WSJ did conclude. Also, WSJ piece source can be added- - side note~ video on archive of WSJ site gives error to me. `~ᴀɴᴋʀᴀᴊ ɢɪʀɪ🎇✨ 16:59, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Ankraj_giri: It's actually given quite a bit of space considering the fact that it's a 4-minute video. Most is in the section having to do with origin and trajectory, because that is mostly what the piece talked about. Putting the two sections together, this is what is said about the WSJ analysis: The Wall Street Journal published a report on 21 October 2023 containing an analysis of four geolocated and verified videos of the incident, concluding that the explosion was caused by a misfired rocket. According to the video analysis of The Wall Street Journal, a long-range rocket was launched from Gaza in a northeastern direction toward Israel. Ten seconds after the rocket was launched, it malfunctioned and veered back toward the west, with the hospital in its path. The Wall Street Journal's analysis also concluded that the impact crater was consistent with a rocket fragment incoming from the east. If you have a specific proposal, I'm happy to consider it. Obviously we cannot copy and paste your entire transcript. But you could say: "Between sentence x and y, I propose we insert the following sentence: _______________."-- Orgullomoore (talk) 17:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Ankraj_giri: What error does it give you?-- Orgullomoore (talk) 17:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

So this analysis actually seems to corroborate the Channel 4 analysis. The projectile did come from the east or northeast, because of the change of trajectory visible in the videos.

So both of these analyses actually support one another and the existing consensus that this was a failed PIJ rocket. Inmymoonsuit (talk) 16:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Inmymoonsuit: That's exactly correct.-- Orgullomoore (talk) 16:26, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox information and references

A few days ago in reply to a question in the Misplaced Pages:Teahouse {unrelated to this article} I was told that "material that is in the article with references doesn't need to have a reference when reused in the infobox." but this article's infobox includes 12 references most of which also appear in the article. Are all of them necessary or should material not already in the article be included in it and the references deleted? Mcljlm (talk) 22:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Considering how contentious the topic and subject matter is, I think it's helpful that the infobox references remain in place for now. 133.106.156.110 (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Questionable categorization

This edit added the article to Category:Friendly fire incidents, but nowhere does the article state conclusively that this was a friendly fire incident. I'm genuinely unclear on the policies applicable to categorization, but this seems inappropriately conclusory. If we're adding categories based on allegations that have yet to be conclusively verified, Category:Israeli attacks against the Gaza Strip would likely also be appropriate.

I really don't want to litigate the consensus issue with this thread. I know others (typically non-EC, like myself) are going to descend on this to point out how supposedly incontrovertible the "expert" opinion is. I'm not interested, I've read the talk page, I know about RS and NPOV. Can we drop the stick regarding the rush to judgement? Editors with vastly more experience than myself are saying to wait for an RfC before we take a side. So either let's not use categorization as a trojan horse, or let's include this page in all potentially applicable categories. WillowCity (talk) 02:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

This was a friendly fire incident. This was not an Israeli attack. | Orgullomoore (talk) 02:53, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

That has yet to be established as a fact, and categorization does not allow for any nuance. It should not be in that category unless and until it is established as a fact. nableezy - 02:54, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Then the war crime categories should also go. | Orgullomoore (talk) 02:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes they absolutely should. nableezy - 02:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I just removed them. It had been removed earlier in the day here , but I'm not sure who added it back. David O. Johnson (talk) 02:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

They were re-added by The Great Mule of Eupatoria in this diff | Orgullomoore (talk) 03:03, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done | Orgullomoore (talk) 02:59, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@David O. Johnson

I have reverted the edit with an undo, so it might have undone the blurb without me intending to. i will change it if it hasn’t been fixed already The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

The Great Mule of Eupatoria ,can you explain why you added the "war crime" categories back in this edit ?— Preceding unsigned comment added by David O. Johnson (talk • contribs)

"Thousands of people displaced..." is not sourced.

Thousands of people displaced by the evacuation of northern Gaza sought shelter at al-Ahli Arab Hospital to avoid Israeli airstrikes. The hospital sheltered around 6,000 displaced persons, with around 1,000 in the hospital courtyard. - from the article

Two very clear issues here. Firstly, This is the source being given for the "thousands of people displaced by the evacuation of northern Gaza sought shelter at al-Ahli Arab hospital". This source does not say that thousands of people displaced sought shelter at the hospital. That is nowhere in the source, it needs to be changed from "thousands" to "many" to accurately reflect the source being cited. This is what the source actually says.

"About half of Gaza’s population of more than two million Palestinians have fled their homes since the Israeli bombardment began, according to the United Nations. Many have sought shelter in the corridors and courtyards of hospitals, believing that they would be less vulnerable there."

Second; the "sheltered around 6,000 displaced persons with around 1,000 in the hospital courtyard" is a statement in wiki voice. It's a statement, that so far as I can find is also not in the cited source.

TL;DR; we have two statements that are, at best, mistaken about what is in the actual source that is being used to include them. If these statements can't be sourced they don't belong in the article. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

First, Misplaced Pages:Please don't shout. Second, there are several sources that say that initially the 6,000 were camping out at the hospital, then left. I don't have time to look for it at the moment, but I'm sure someone can help you. | Orgullomoore (talk) 03:35, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd ask that you comment when you have something to add, as currently you've just said effectively "they exist". That adds nothing other than text. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

wikt:Google is your friend | Orgullomoore (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

If/when you have something meaningful to contribute to my challenge to the sources (see WP:Verifiability for the policy regarding this) then please provide it at that point. The onus does not fall on me to find a new source for the content that was challenged. That would be on you if you want it included. Chuckstablers (talk) 04:04, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

"This is an essay.

It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Misplaced Pages contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Misplaced Pages's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints."

would be my response to the shouting thing. Respectfully, unless you have a policy violation, don't edit other users posts without their consent. This is actually a talk page guideline. Chuckstablers (talk) 03:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Update: Only source I can find supporting this is this https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67140250. If @Orgullomoore or anyone else has any other sources that would support the text as it currently reads, I'm all ears.

"He told the BBC that about 6,000 displaced people had been sheltering in the hospital courtyard at the end of last week.

The hospital was first hit by an Israeli air strike that caused damage and injured four people on Saturday, he said. After that, 5,000 people left the courtyard - leaving around 1,000 remaining there, many of them invalids or elderly who needed transportation."

Here is how the text reads currently: "Thousands of people displaced by the evacuation of northern Gaza sought shelter at al-Ahli Arab Hospital to avoid Israeli airstrikes. The hospital sheltered around 6,000 displaced persons, with around 1,000 in the hospital courtyard."

Issues: This implies that there were 6,000 displaced persons sheltering at the hospital at the time of the blast. That's not what the source I've provided cited by the BBC said; he said that there were 6,000 displaced persons there a week ago, and at the time there were only 1,000 people in the hospital courtyard as 5,000 left after the israeli airstrike a week before the blast. This matters because this section is going in chronological order, and as of October 10th according to the source there would've only been 1,000 people in the courtyard.

Solution: Remove the two sources cited for the text as it is now, replace it with something like this: "According to the dean of St. Georges College in Jerusalem, there were 1,000 persons displaced by Israeli airstrikes sheltering in the courtyard" - then cite the BBC. Then at least we're citing a source that supports what we have in the article. Chuckstablers (talk) 04:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

This is what I'm finding as well. 133.106.156.110 (talk) 04:54, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Source challenge for "thousands of people displaced..."

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Please make the following change to the article, as the source cited for the statement says "Many have sought shelter in the corridors and courtyards of hospitals, believing that they would be less vulnerable there", not "thousands of people".

Chuckstablers (talk) 03:45, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

The cited New York Times source says this in the very first paragraph of the article:

Sameh al-Jaroosha was sitting on the edge of the grassy courtyard of the Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza City on Tuesday night, talking to a new acquaintance who was among the thousands of Palestinian residents of the city seeking refuge there in hopes that it would be safer than staying at home.

@Chuckstablers: Please refer to the most recent archived version for verification. What you have linked to above is an old archive from Oct. 18, and the article from the New York Times has apparently been updated. 133.106.156.110 (talk) 04:39, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

It appears that the citation in the Misplaced Pages article itself needs to be updated with a link to the most recent archived copy, to avoid confusion such as this. 133.106.156.110 (talk) 04:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Teahouse#Re-using_info_box_citations

• C-Class Crime-related articles
• Mid-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
• C-Class Death articles
• Mid-importance Death articles
• C-Class Disaster management articles
• Mid-importance Disaster management articles
• C-Class Explosives articles
• Low-importance Explosives articles
• C-Class Hospital articles
• Mid-importance Hospital articles
• WikiProject Hospitals articles
• C-Class Human rights articles
• Mid-importance Human rights articles
• WikiProject Human rights articles
• C-Class International relations articles
• High-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• C-Class Israel-related articles
• High-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration articles
• Start-Class military history articles
• Start-Class Middle Eastern military history articles
• Middle Eastern military history task force articles
• Start-Class Post-Cold War articles
• Post-Cold War task force articles
• C-Class Palestine-related articles
• High-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• C-Class Journalism articles
• Mid-importance Journalism articles
• WikiProject Journalism articles
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs in the Palestinian territories
• Requested moves
• Misplaced Pages extended-confirmed-protected edit requests