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Article milestones Date Process Result March 1, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 6 times. The weeks in which this happened: July 13 to 19, 2014 (17th) July 20 to 26, 2014 (10th) July 27 to August 2, 2014 (6th) August 3 to 9, 2014 (23rd) May 9 to 15, 2021 (5th) May 16 to 22, 2021 (7th) Text and/or other creative content from Hamas was copied or moved into Criticism of Hamas with this edit on March 25, 2017. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. The contents of the International positions on the nature of Hamas page were merged into Hamas on October 21, 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. Section sizes Section size for Hamas (58 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 25,905 25,905 Etymology 532 532 History 13,285 13,285 Policies towards Israel and Palestine 3,226 63,328 Truce proposals 5,140 5,140 Recognition of Israel 5,622 5,622 Allegations of antisemitism 10,219 10,219 Evolution of positions 32 39,121 1988–1992 (first charter) 1,940 1,940 1992–2005 1,235 1,235 2006–2007: 1967 borders and a truce 7,249 7,249 2008–2016 10,172 10,172 2017– 6 Oct. 2023 (new charter) 4,170 4,170 7 Oct. 2023–present 6,974 6,974 Comments from non-Hamas-members 7,349 7,349 Religious policy 24 15,292 Gaza Strip 8,140 8,140 In the West Bank 3,072 3,072 Erdoğan's Turkey as a role model 4,056 4,056 Charter and policy documents 36 12,709 1988 charter 8,166 8,166 2017 document of principles 4,507 4,507 Organization 18 35,914 Leadership and structure 2,644 4,868 Shura Council and Political Bureau 2,224 2,224 Finances and funding 12,843 12,843 Social services wing 5,033 5,033 Media 128 8,928 Al-Aqsa TV 4,722 4,722 Al-Fateh magazine 1,514 1,514 Social media 2,564 2,564 Internal security 1,353 4,224 Civilian crisis management 2,871 2,871 Qassam Brigades (military wing) 7,082 8,187 Gaza forces, October 2023 1,105 1,105 Symbols 4,704 4,704 Violence 1,691 43,071 Attacks on civilians 16,657 16,657 Rocket attacks on Israel 4,780 4,780 Guerrilla warfare 1,685 1,685 Extrajudicial killings of rivals 10,141 10,141 Terrorist designation 8,117 8,117 Criticism 3,793 3,793 Electoral performance 28 488 Legislative Council 460 460 Support 12 6,912 Israeli policy towards Hamas 2,707 2,707 Public support 4,193 4,193 Foreign relations 9,928 19,773 Qatar and Turkey 9,845 9,845 See also 287 287 Notes 26 26 References 33 17,177 Sources 16 17,144 Books 14,013 14,013 Journal articles 1,683 1,683 Other 1,432 1,432 External links 3,492 3,492 Total 274,875 274,875

RFC: Should Hamas' ideology be described as anti-imperialist in the infobox?

Should Hamas be described as anti-imperialist in the infobox?

• Option #1: Ideology: Anti-imperialism shouldn't be mentioned in the infobox
• Option #2: Ideology: Anti-imperialism
• Option #3: Ideology: Anti-imperialism (disputed)

The options are the above. There has been significant edit warring within the article over the past week related to this. KlayCax (talk) 05:35, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• what do the reliable sources say? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Peacemaker67: The comments below, mainly based on original research, show the importance of evaluating the reliable sources before coming here. Upon a quick search I found "HAMAS equates Zionism with Nazism and imperialism.". More sources should be sought though. Mhhossein 20:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Option 1: Such a statement would equate Zionism with imperialism, which is, to say the least, an extremely contentious matter and utterly inappropriate for Wikivoice. Infoboxes should generally err on the side of caution regarding potentially controversial, let alone inflammatory, claims.

RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 06:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Whether Zionism is imperialist or not is unrelated to whether Hamas ideologically believes itself to be anti-imperialist. Who said the internal ideologies of organizations are academically accurate? Iskandar323 (talk) 06:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Zionist state is undoubtedly a settler-colonial, imperialist and irredentist entity; which was founded after the ethnic cleansing of native Palestinians. It currently occupies territories of the State of Palestine and Syria. During 1980s, it invaded Lebanon and occupied southern Lebanon for nearly 15 years. (until it got defeated and expelled militarily) It has also been aggressively annexing more and more Palestinian lands.

Many Jewish dissidents criticize or oppose such imperialist, irredentist and expansionist policies; but its a fact that the Zionist state itself is a settler-colonial and imperial entity. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 13:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM Drsmoo (talk) 03:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. "Anti-imperialism" and "Anti-semitisim/Zionism/etc." are not the same thing. WonderCanada (talk) 08:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. Now the only source supporting this assertion is Between the Lines by Toufic Haddad and Tikva Honig-Parnass (Israeli radical anti-occupation movement activist), published by Haymarket books, a 'left-wing non-profit, independent book publisher.' Are there other, less biased sources which characterise them this way? Alaexis_¿question? 09:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1, unless RS are provided that establish either of the other options. François Robere (talk) 12:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option 1 Most of the sources dont describe it in such way so it will be wp:undue to do so

Shrike (talk) 19:16, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. This is the source in the article's infobox for anti-imperialism. The information should be expanded before a decision is made. Senorangel (talk) 02:31, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Option 2: In addition to news reports, there are plenty of academic sources discussing the anti-imperialism of Hamas. I dont know why an academic source which cited the anti-imperialist character of Hamas movement was erased repeatedly from this page.

• From "Between the Lines" (2007) edited by Tikva Honig-Parnass, Toufic Haddad.

Publisher: Haymarket Books

"Nowhere did the Zionist left bother to respond to analysts like Azmi Bishara, who time and again emphasized that in supporting Hamas, the Palestinian people were declaring that they opposed the former PA policies, which had succumbed to Israeli dictates. Nor did their general political view allow them to relate to the anti-imperialist essence inherent in Hamas's resistance.."

• From "The Routledge Companion to the Study of Religion" (2010) edited by John Hinnells. Publisher: Routledge

  There is also a nationalist and anti-imperial dimension to most Islamic militancy. Hamas is a fundamentalist movement in the sense that it advocates a state based on strict conformity to Islamic law, and the followers of Hamas are expected to follow a strictly Islamic code of conduct. At the same time, however, Hamas is clearly a Palestinian nationalist movement that echoes most of the traditional demands of the Palestinian Liberation Organization before it accepted the idea of the partition of pre-1948 Palestine into a Jewish state on 78 percent of the land and a Palestinian state on the remaining 22 percent

• From "A History of Palestinian Islamic Jihad" (2021) authored by Erik Skare. Publisher: Cambridge University Press

  These qualifications, however, do not necessarily weaken my claim that the thought and practice of PIJ and Hamas derive from two different political traditions. First, both movements opposed Western colonialism and its complicity in the crimes of the Israeli occupation. Yet, Hamas's theorization about the instrumental Zionist-Western relationship made it explore the division of responsibilities in the liberation struggle. That is, the movement explored the issue of who had to bear the greatest costs of "Zionists and imperialist projects." Hamas concluded that liberation could not be borne by the Palestinian resistance alone. Hroub thus argues that "one finds evidence of the line of thinking that originated in the 1970s... that is, an Islamic state be established outside (Palestine), and such a state should take a lion's share of the responsibility for liberation." Accordingly, Hamas never expected the First Intifada to lead to the liberation of Palestine. This conclusion would necessarily distinguish Hamas from PIJ, with the confidence of the latter in the Palestinian masses and their armed struggle. As Hatina notes: "A general enlistment of the Muslim world to join the struggle in Palestine acknowledged as impractical . The main burden, in consequence, at least in the initial phase, fall on the Muslims of Palestine.
  Second, these differing views on the division of responsibilities, and the realism of the Palestinian struggle, would necessarily affect their approach to the West and the application of their anti-colonial analysis in daily and diplomatic practices.

• "Conversations with Terrorists: Middle East Leaders on Politics, Violence, and Empire" (2016) authored by Reese Erlich & Baer Robert. Publisher: Routledge

  Hamas was founded in December 1987 by Sheik Ahmed Yassin and his followers as a branch of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. The Brotherhood had a long history in the Middle East as an anti-imperialist organization seeking to establish Arab governments ruled by a strict interpretation of Islam....
  From the beginning Hamas saw itself as a distinct, religious trend and refused to join the PLO. Hamas sought to merge a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam with anti-imperialism.

As everyone can see, numerous academic sources have clearly described Hamas as an anti-imperialist movement. Outside the academia, it is well-known that various media outlets, political and civilian activists across the world, describe Hamas movement as anti-imperialist.

Due to the settler-colonial nature of Zionist nationalism, Zionists of all political persuasions attempt to deny the anti-imperialist character of Hamas insurgents. (as mentioned in the above listed academic sources)

I view these ongoing, repeated attempts to remove and censor the well-sourced content regarding anti-imperialism of Hamas insurgents as part of the Western-centric systemic bias prevelant in this "online encyclopaedia". Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 12:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option 2 for now, in light of sources presented by Shadowwarrior8. I'm open to seeing contrarian sources too.VR _talk 02:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2 (Summoned by bot) there are serious academic sources in which it is clear that Hamas consider themselves to be anti-imperialist. For example, Meir Litvak who is the Chair of the Department of Middle Eastern and African History at Tel Aviv University writes in two places of an article that "More important, Hamas regards the struggle against Israel and the Jews as part of a broader religious war waged between the Islamic and Western civilizations. It is the latest and most fateful phase of the relentless onslaught waged by Western imperialism and culture against Islam since the time of the Crusades. Both the capitalist West and the Communist East are regarded as one entity in this context because of their support for Zionism. Thus Hamas depicted the 1991 Gulf War as a war of the 'crusaders coalition' against Islam in order to complete what Zionism had been unable to do. In addition, the Jews were sometimes portrayed as instruments of the West, or alternatively as the power which controls and manipulates the West. The US, for instance, was described as a servant of Israel and as seeking to subjugate the Arabs according to the Jewish plan" and "The ramifications of the Palestinian jihad, according to Hamas, go far beyond Palestine. History from the times of the Crusades has shown that the Islamic nation unites only around Palestine , writes Abd al-Hafiz 'Alawi, a frequent contributor to Filastin al-Muslima. The Palestinian cause is the common denominator of all popular movements in the Muslim world. The loss of Palestine was the beginning of the nation's collapse and disintegration, and the liberation of Palestine is a necessary precondition for the nation's cultural revival and progress. Moreover, humanity everywhere, which is oppressed by American imperialism and Zionism, looks forward to the defeat of these forces as the first step towards its liberation. There is no future for this nation and this region, he concluded, except by liberating Palestine and by removing the Zionist state which constitutes the obstacle to Arab and Islamic revival". TarnishedPath 10:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Option #2: There appears to be plenty of evidence that Hamas views its own activities through an anti-imperialist lense, and by contrast, no evidence contradicting this and asserting that it does not. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:50, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option #3: Ideology: Anti-imperialism (disputed) They may view themselves as anti-imperialist, but they also say they are committed to the destruction of Israel, which goes beyond simply being anti-imperialist. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 16:57, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2, with the assumption that the rest of the section is staying rather than being replaced (that is Anti-imperialism in addition to Palestinian nationalism, Islamism, etc rather than instead of). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Option #2, although it would would benefit from the addition of ideaologies such as nationalism, Palestinian self-determinaton, etc. Estep00 (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option #2, and I would also add "Anti-colonialism" to that. Baconi (2018, page 226) writes "In that sense, Hamas is akin to a religious and armed anticolonial resistance movement". VR _talk 21:36, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

• Option #1: In fact Hamas may be imperialist itself, seeking to establish a muslim empire worldwide. Article 23 of the Hamas Charter expresses support for all Islamic movements "if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah." Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  Can you quote WP:SECONDARY reliable sources to uphold that assertion? VR _talk 04:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  It is my opinion that may be shared by other editors. It showcases controversy of statements about it and as such a reason why option 1 is more desirable. Also, the infobox should reflect what reliable sources say, as such if there are reliable sources directly stating it is anti-imperialist, then that's fine. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  If that's the case, plenty of academic sources have indeed been cited in the RfC which explains the anti-imperialist nature of Hamas.

  Regarding the ideological aims of Hamas, "Hamas Charter" page mostly explains the 1988 charter of Hamas. In 2017, Hamas adopted a new charter. Its text can be read here. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 06:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 per all above Parham wiki (talk) 11:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 per provided sources. If some disputing sources could be found, I wouldn't be opposed to Option 3, but I don't think Option 1 is an option at this point. Loki (talk) 23:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option 3 at least, based on a casual search I did of disputing sources (from both the left and the right). There is The Atlantic (https://web.archive.org/web/20231102003927/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/), The Daily Beast (https://www.thedailybeast.com/left-wing-defenses-of-hamas-are-an-insult-to-palestinians), Social Europe (https://www.socialeurope.eu/israel-and-hamas-the-debasement-of-discourse), Socialist Appeal (https://socialist.net/marxists-cannot-support-islamic-fundamentalism-hamas/), National Interest (https://nationalinterest.org/feature/latin-american-support-hamas-threatens-american-interests-207051), and Dissent Magazine (https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/toward-a-humane-left/) all challenging or criticising the anti-imperialist label. I have not done a search in Google Scholar or other academia-related engines, so there are probably even more disputing sources that can be found...

I also did a search of sources in Portuguese and Swedish out of curiosity and found articles from Göteborgs-Posten editor Adam Cwejman (https://www.gp.se/ledare/sovjets-propaganda-präglar-fortfarande-bilden-av-israel-1.114466524) and Brazilian columnist Denis Lerrer Rosenfield in O Estado de S. Paulo (https://web.archive.org/web/20231106065608/https://www.estadao.com.br/opiniao/denis-lerrer-rosenfield/dicionario-da-ignominia/) criticising some leftist figures' pro-Hamas sympathy on anti-imperialist reasoning. An analyst from the Instituto de Estudos Políticos  (https://cnnportugal.iol.pt/hamas/gaza/dina-matos-ferreira-terroristas-como-atores-da-guerra-um-guia-para-as-percecoes/20231027/653c0233d34e65afa2f6ebe6) most explicitly opposes this label, contending that Hamas is linked to 'Islamic imperialism' and the spread of Sharia. John Gray (https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-10-19/john-gray-philosopher-the-west-has-a-false-view-of-hamas-as-an-anti-colonial-movement-it-has-more-in-common-with-isis.html) rejects the anti-colonial label on the group, which is similar. So if option 2 is taken, I think both the supporting and dissenting views on 'anti-imperiaism' should be added to the article body or it would be pushing an outdated and one-sided viewpoint. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Option 2 per provided sources, and related explanations by the users who selected Option-2. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 14:24, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Option 1, sure they describe themselves as "anti-imperialist", but this is empty propaganda and not a significant aspect of the organization. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 09:41, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment, none of the editors who oppose the inclusion of well-sourced content have actually provided any academic source. Either they make WP:IDONTLIKEIT-style arguments against Hamas, or in one case, bring up biased & partisan opinion pieces.

Here is another academic source stating that Hamas movement is anti-imperialist.

It is well-known that Hamas movement is widely described as an anti-imperialist movement in the academia. There is no need to ask the personal opinion of other editors to include this well-recognized content. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I’m not opposed to including it but it should be included along with many of the sources I listed. And sorry, but many of those “biased & partisan opinion pieces” like The Atlantic, CNN, and El Pais are considered acceptable by most Wiki editors. If you’re advocating the addition of your sources while saying mine should be excluded from the article, it would not be in line with Wiki policy as WP:RSOPINION states that op-eds in mainstream Western outlets are allowed, just not as assertions in Wikivoice (where conflicting sources should be included).

Also do you have a source from no further back to the start of this war that still contends Hamas is anti-imperialist? Because many European commentators do not seem to agree with the description now. Considering the Hamas attack made headlines all over the globe for the past month, your content (though adequately sourced) would qualify for a dated template. Donkey Hot-day (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Option 1. Not even one source was brought here with a quote: "Hamas is Anti-Imperialist". So far the sources went vaguely around assumed parts of analysis. TaBaZzz (talk) 21:00, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

That's your blatant original research. Academic sources provided here have clearly asserted the anti-imperialist character of Hamas and allied insurgent groups like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad organization. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 21:26, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• Option #2, Ideology: Anti-imperialism. As I understand the proposal, it is to add "anti-imperialism" to the already-listed ideologies of Palestinian nationalism, Islamism, Islamic nationalism, Anti-Zionism, Antisemitism, and Ant-communism. I don't see why not, per the sources extensively quoted by Shadowwarrior8. I also don't see what the big deal is. Hamas believes the State of Israel was foisted upon Arab Palestinians, without their knowledge or consent, first by the British Empire (see Sykes–Picot Agreement and Balfour Declaration) and after that by the United States and other members of the United Nations (see United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine#The_vote). They see that as imperialism, to which they are opposed, hence anti-imperialism. Whether their worldview is correct is not something we can solve. --Orgullomoore (talk) 03:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 2 per Shadowwarrior8 and Orgullomoore. People not liking the sources isnt something that should factor in to our consensus process, when sources support something we say that. And beyond that, we routinely include what parties say about their own views. We for example say the Republican Party (United States) has an ideology of fiscal conservatism despite Republican presidents having larger deficits than Democratic ones (source), or centrism despite the evidence of the contrary. But regardless, the sourcing here is solid, and that is what should count. nableezy - 03:26, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
• Option 1. One should look at the best available tertiary sources here like Britannica . It says: "Hamas, militant Palestinian nationalist and Islamist movement". EB provides a long article about it, but nowhere calls Hamas an organization with anti-imperialist ideology. My very best wishes (talk) 04:42, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  It also nowhere mentions Anti-Zionism, Antisemitism, or Anti-communism. --Orgullomoore (talk) 04:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  Perhaps My very best wishes is arguing we should also remove antisemitism from their ideology? nableezy - 15:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

  EB says (link above): "But Hamas continued to reject the legitimacy of Israel... Yahya Sinwar, became the local leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip (2017– ), he stated in a roundtable discussion with young Gazans: “Gone is the time in which Hamas discussed recognition of Israel. The discussion now is about when we will wipe out Israel.” Therefore, yes, it is anti-Zionist by definition and arguably antisemitic. As about "anti-communist" - no, this does not appear anywhere. My very best wishes (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  Arguably is definitionally OR. nableezy - 05:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• To paraphrase Ian Hislop, if Britannica is one of the best available tertiary sources then I'm a banana. There are surely better scholarly tertiary sources covering this topic. Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

What other widely-recognized tertiary sources would you suggest? I did not see any in discussion above. EB is a neutral, non-partisan source. See WP:Tertiary: "Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." My very best wishes (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

But no secondary source has been provided conflicting with this. It is simply the Misplaced Pages editors who dislike what the sources say that dispute it, not other sources. nableezy - 05:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. Quick source check identifies a number of other tertiary sources that could be used here (Google books search for "Hamas" AND "encyclopedia"), but most are not available online. One of them says that "Hamas equates Zionism with Nazism and imperialism". Does it mean that Hamas is an anti-imperialist organization? No, it does not, and the source does not claim it. My very best wishes (talk) 18:44, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

  We prefer secondary sources, which we are tasked with summarizing here, not tertiary sources whose editorial policies we do not know. Our editorial policy is to summarize secondary sources with due weight given to disputed views in accordance to their weight among reliable sources. nableezy - 05:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Honig-Parnass, Haddad, Tikva, Toufic (2007). "10: Expanding Regionally, Resisting Locally". Between the Lines. Haymarket Books. p. 297. ISBN 978-1931859-44-8.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Honig-Parnass, Haddad, Tikva, Toufic (2007). "10: Expanding Regionally, Resisting Locally". Between the Lines. Haymarket Books. p. 297. ISBN 978-1931859-44-8.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
3. Hinnells, John; Munson, Henry (2010). "21: Fundamentalism". The Routledge Companion to the Study of Religion. Routledge. ISBN 978-0-203-86876-8.
4. Skare, Erik (2021). A History of Palestinian Islamic Jihad. New York, NY 10006, USA: Cambridge University Press. p. 367. ISBN 978-1-108-84506-9.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
5. Erlich, Robert, Reese, Baer (2016). Conversations with Terrorists: Middle East Leaders on Politics, Violence, and Empire. 605 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10007, USA: Routledge. p. 367. ISBN 978-1-1384-6788-0.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
6. Litvak, Meir (Jan 1998). "The Islamization of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: The Case of Hamas". Middle Eastern Studies. 34 (1): 148–163. Retrieved 2023-10-17.
7. L. Gevin, James (2021). The Israel-Palestine Conflict: A History (4 ed.). New York, NY 10006, USA: Cambridge University Press. p. 237. ISBN 978-1-108-48868-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)

Re: Hamas’ “perceived anti-Israeli stance”

Hi,

I’m not extended autoconfirmed, or I would otherwise have made this edit request myself, but I have a small suggestion for improvement to this article.

In the third paragraph of the lead, the following sentence appears:

Hamas has gained widespread popularity within Palestinian society for its perceived anti-Israeli stance. (emphasis added)

It feels like “perceived anti-Israeli stance” is a bit disingenuous. There is nothing purely “perceptual” about Hamas’ stance towards Israel—it is quite real, and quite obvious. Whatever lens through which one views the current escalation in violence, this sentence nearly reads like a joke in light thereof. Hamas’ charter literally calls for the annihilation of the State of Israel through jihad. In fact, just two sentences before this, the lead states:

it has pursued a policy of jihad (armed struggle) against Israel.

I would suggest changing the sentence in question to something like “Hamas has gained widespread popularity within Palestinian society for its anti-Israeli stance.” or “Hamas has gained widespread popularity within Palestinian society for its active anti-Israeli stance.”

Thanks for your work and consideration,

Hermes Thrice Great (talk) 07:34, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

• support TaBaZzz (talk) 19:53, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"Perceived" Bar Harel (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Support this generally, but can't help feel "anti-Israel stance" is a bit weak anyway. Can we bulk it out? I'd imagine a lot of sources discuss the legitimacy crisis of Fatah and stagnation of Oslo? I feel that would be a stronger sentence. Yr Enw (talk) 09:20, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding Moldova as state that designated Hamas as a terrorist org

Here is the source - terrorist orgs list of Moldova national antiterrorist committee 2019. https://antiteror.sis.md/sites/default/files/document/attachments/osis_14_2019.pdf Zaygle (talk) 07:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

In progress: An editor is implementing the requested edit.

 Question:

@Zaygle, could you provide additional information around this so that it can be better cited? Possibly around page 21–23 is what you’re referring to? I have attempted to translate it using machine translation, but I don’t want to rely on that alone.

@Jmabel, hello! I noticed you were listed as a previously active Romanian translator who has made contributions in the previous weeks—would you be able to assist in verifying this as a reliable and accurate source? Thanks!

– Pedantical (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Pedantical: it's a government site, so presumably reliable, including that it cites for the position being official. Further, it mentions that this was published in the Official Gazette of the Republic of Moldova (MONITORUL OFICIAL). The document conflates involvement in terrorist activities (activități teroriste) and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction (proliferare a armelor de distrugere în masă), so one possible question is that it could be conceivably argued that somehow they fell under the latter rather than the former, but given the nature of Hamas that would be quite a stretch. The mention of Hamas doesn't so much single out a Moldovan position as cite and quote a list people, groups, and entities provided in article I of the Common Position of the Council of the European Union, 27 December 2001 (LISTA persoanelor, grupurilor și a entităților prevăzute la articolul 1 din Poziția Comună a Consiliului Uniunii Europene din 27 decembrie 2001 (2001/931/PESC) ). Under that heading, the list of groups and entities (Grupuri și entități) on page 22 of the PDF includes „Hamas”, inclusiv „Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem” ("Hamas", including "Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem"). So it is clearly an official Moldovan government position, but it is simply an endorsement of an EU list, not something originating in Moldova. I presume that answers your question. Since Moldova is not yet an EU member, their official endorsement and quotation of the EU list should presumably count as a separate action, and that Moldova considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization.

Please ping me if anyone thinks there is any problem in my translation or reasoning: I don't maintain a watchlist on en-wiki. - Jmabel | Talk 18:22, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help here! Greatly appreciated. Take care,

– Pedantical (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

wording in lead

the lead section says "Hamas is widely considered to be the "dominant political force" within the Palestinian territories.". This is supported by three citations:

• a recent Foreign Policy article which in no way says this at any point ("Hamas’s ability to claim leadership based on the quality of ordinary Palestinians’ lives is limited." & "Abbas and other PA leaders have implicitly supported the isolation of Gaza, and its security forces have worked closely with Israel to crush Hamas in the West Bank"),
• a Guardian article from 2007 which states "Hamas is not currently a member of the PLO but as the dominant political force in the Palestinian territories, it is only a matter of time and negotiation before it takes its place. The PLO is dominated by Fatah and leftist groups who were powerful in the 1960s and 1970s but whose influence has waned." which might have been true at the time, but not 16 years later (or even since 2007).
• The third citation is a 2009 paper which make the claim in the context of the 2006 Palestinian Legislative Council elections, but that council has been defunct since the Fatah Hamas split in 2007.

The latest poll from Gaza (July 2023) indicated 11% support for Hamas and 32% for Fatah. (Not 100% sure about the quality of the poll, though Ian Bremmer seems to think its legit). Overall this doesnt seem like good enough and especially not recent enough sourcing to support such a bold claim in the lead section. jonas (talk) 04:09, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

This is interesting. Washington Institute also polled Gazans in July 2023 and their findings are somewhat different Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas... —though Gazans who express this opinion of Hamas are fewer than the number of Gazans who have a positive view of Fatah (64%). They also found that Fatah is more popular (which was surprising for me!) but still more than half support Hamas. The difference could be due to differences in the wording of questions and the interpretation of the responses.

We can probably include the poll results, but the popular support for a faction doesn't necessarily mean that it is the "dominant political force," especially in the absence of elections. Alaexis_¿question? 10:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Here's another survey, made by Arab Barometer right before the start of the war. They asked a slightly different question "Which party, if any, do you feel closest to?" and as far as I can understand it was a single answer question. Fatah and Hamas were chosen by 30% and 27% respectively. We'd have to summarise all these surveys somehow. Alaexis_¿question? 10:53, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Next Palestinian legislative election#Opinion polls Selfstudier (talk) 11:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I didn't know about that article, I think it belongs to Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages records :) Alaexis_¿question? 22:11, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

the public support section has some polling from 2014 but would need some updating with these polls. I don't see anyone arguing for keeping the wording in the lead, so I'm gonna remove that part for now until there's consensus to more accurately describe the current position of Hamas. jonas (talk) 14:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The latest poll I could find for Hamas' popularity is from 2021, and nothing from since then.VR _talk 00:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The polls in the above link go through mid 2023. Selfstudier (talk) 15:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

"One-party state"

There was a longer discussion on Hamas being an oppressive one-party state at Talk:Gaza Strip. I'll ping all the participants there. Makeandtoss (Iskandar323—Selfstudier—nableezy—TaBaZzz—Homerethegreat—Dovidroth—Jean-de-Nivelle)

I don't dispute that Hamas is oppressive, but Gaza Strip is not a state! Hamas has never declared independence, nor has any entity ever recognized Gaza Strip as an independent state. Hamas, and every one else, continue to view Gaza Strip as an integral part of the Palestinian territories and the partially recognized State of Palestine. VR _talk 03:52, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

That's why it was always de facto , but Hamas is effectively ruled seperetly from the rest of the Palestinian Territories (Whole Palestinian Civil War, Fatah-Hamas episode). And since Hamas has opressed opposition to it, it makes it effectively, One party rule. Homerethegreat (talk) 16:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Even de facto is not true. The West Bank-based Palestinian Authority pays the salaries of civil servants in Gaza Strip, and Israel controls the population registry for Gaza Strip (and West Bank). As far as I know, Gaza Strip residents can only get a Palestinian Authority passport - there is no such thing as a "Hamas passport". And the United Nations (and others) consider Gaza Strip under Israeli occupation, just like the West Bank.VR _talk 17:56, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

UN recognition has nothing to do with this. Usually the term "de facto state" is used precisely for states that are not widely recognised (Abkhazia, TRNC, Somaliland, etc).

In case of Gaza under Hamas, there are many sources which apply this term to Gaza, for example

• Bombs and Ballots. Governance by Islamist Terrorist and Guerrilla Groups, p. 128
• Between State and Non-State. Politics and Society in Kurdistan-Iraq and Palestine, p. 92 Alaexis_¿question? 20:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

• In each of these cases, Abkhazia, Somaliland, the territory itself views itself as an independent state. Where is the evidence that Hamas views itself as an independent state? The claim that Gaza Strip is an independent state is a very WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. It is telling that, while Abkhazia, Somaliland, TRNC etc are all listed at List of states with limited recognition, Gaza Strip is not listed there. VR _talk 04:18, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

  What would you propose as an alternative to convey that Gaza is run by a single party that exercises de facto sovereignty within the territory it controls? --Orgullomoore (talk) 04:28, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

• I personally don't agree that Hamas exercises sovereignty per arguments above, but we go by sources and not personal opinions, so lets see what others say.VR _talk 21:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Media and Culture Theory - MDC 254

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2023 and 11 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Curry7524 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jdog1027 (talk) 02:36, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

“Misplaced Pages is not interested in what scholars believe”

Corriebertus added

This is much too vague. Misplaced Pages is not interested in what scholars “believe”: belief is religion and is therefore a private affair. But if the Wiki contributor who added this sentence means to say or suggest, those six referenced authors state in their books that they have read in that Hamas charter the Hamas willingness to accept the two-state solution of Israel next to a P. state on West Bank, Gaza Strip plus East Jerusalem, then please, say so clearly, give a citation from at least one of those authors, and tell where in the charter they’ve read that vow; because the charter is public, we all can read it ourselves, and points 18 and 19 in it: “...establishment of "Israel" is ..illegal ..contravenes the ..rights of the Palestinian people .. There shall be no recognition of ..the Zionist entity”, etc., don’t in the least sound as such an acceptance of aforementioned two-state solution. If however none of those six authors (who all have no Misplaced Pages page testifying their good reputation) even tells in their referenced book where they have read such (contradictory!) vow to such two-state solution in that Hamas charter, Misplaced Pages should not be the place to misleadingly publish (in a section called Hamas#Two-state solution) those apparently unbased (wishful?) fantasies of them as if they were relevant deductions or reliable facts on this topic.

So wikipedia does actually care how scholars interpret primary sources, please see WP:SECONDARY. In fact, wikipedia users interpreting primary sources would be considered WP:OR. I have given the page numbers for each of the books of the authors. Have you gone and verified the sources yourself? Just for your peace of mind, let me give a couple of quotes.

Brenner says

The new document still referred to Palestine as territory 'from the river to the sea'. However, it also added that it accepted the pre-1967 lines as the borders of a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital and the right of return for refugees. While not explicitly saying what would be on the other side of these borders, this nevertheless acknowledged the existence of another entity there.

Ayoob says

In its May 2017 charter, Hamas expressed willingness to accept a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders of Israel and Palestine. The statement, however, done not include recognition of Israel or acceptance of the solution proposed by the Oslo Accords. Nevertheless, acceptance of the 1967 borders can be interpreted as a de facto acceptable of the preconditions for a two-state solution.

VR _talk 16:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not interested in what scholars “believe” Since when? Selfstudier (talk) 16:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Since it conflicted with the personal belief of a Misplaced Pages editor, obviously. nableezy - 18:49, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth. I’ve removed the bulk of the original editor’s clarification template "reason" and directed it to this particular topic (thanks for copying it over and quoting)

It did not seem fitting to include so much editorialized/pointed comments in the article itself (when such concerns could be much more easily discussed here). Pedantical (talk) 21:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing here. @Nableezy: suggests(11/11) that I want/wanted to throw out scholarly interpretations that conflict with my personal ideas (belief, opinion). No, that’s not my point or purpose. My point was here (in that ‘clarify’ request copied in the top of this talk section), that I couldn’t find, on 10 November, a relevant interpretation of a relevant fact in that (summarizing?) sentence about “many scholars believe...”.
With my second sentence in that request (“Misplaced Pages is not interested in…”, misunderstood by VR (=@Vice regent:) here, 11 Nov), I only meant to say: if scholars (or authors or other notable people) think or deduce or interpret or “believe” that Hamas in the 2017 charter states their willingness to accept a (two-state) solution of Israel next to a P. state, and write that in their book, and a Wiki contributor wishes to report on that in our article, then the contributor should give any direct quote testifying such “belief” or interpretation, and in that quote the author (why do you entitle them as “scholars”? One of them, Ayoob, is Professor at a U.S. university, that doesn’t make all of them ‘scholars’; perhaps, you can enlighten us as to why these people are notable in relation to the issue Palestine/Israel?) should preferably make clear how he/she deduces that belief from statements of Hamas; but if the author nowhere in his book explains how his “belief” in (or interpretation of) such two-state solution is based on (or is interpreting/explaining/expounding) any facts, his ‘belief’ appears to be a purely private, 100% unscientific/unbased thing, (glaringly at odds with the text of the 2017 charter,) which (he/she ofcourse is entitled to have but), if included in our article, should be described more clearly (‘scholars/authors believe that Hamas supports a two-state…’) and should be demonstrated with at least one direct quote. If none of that can be delivered by the Wiki contributors, the bare (and unreferenced) contention of some (not specifically well-renowned or -reputed) authors having some (vaguely indicated) ‘belief’ (at odds with plain and clear facts) seems to me an unverifiable presumption/allegation (‘belief’ taking place in someone’s psyche which is inaccessible and unmonitorable for others), therefore not relevant for Misplaced Pages.

The difficult and confusing thing here however is, that that sentence about “many scholars believe(d)...” was first entered in the section on 3 November 00:02 and 00:04 by Vice regent when in this section no substantial mention yet was made of the 2017 charter. In that situation, “believe” seemed to mean: the scholars were not sure what the charter said and therefore made a guess: ‘probably, the new charter accepts a P.state in 1967 borders’. Then, on 4 Nov 13:26 and 6 Nov 10:07, I inserted the link to the full charter and some statements of Hamas’ Political Bureau chairman Mashal while presenting it on a press conference (2May2017), which both seemed to contradict the ‘belief’ of those scholars or at least the way I had understood that sentence about that belief until then (and ofcourse I gave an edit summary with my motivation, trying to point at that seeming contradiction: “even though…still not…”). Insertion of a new sentence in an existing text however will, quite usually and inevitably, alter the meaning of the text following it, even if you don’t change any word or letter from that following text. Therefore, my insertion about the statements on the press conference made it necessary to slightly edit also the sentence coming behind it—not to change the meaning of that following sentence but to preserve its meaning (in the way how I had understood its meaning). Nevertheless, I perhaps should not have edited it in exactly the way I did.

Next thing that happened, is that Vice regent on 7 Nov 01:10 removed the press conference of Mashal 2 May 2017, while maintaining the link to the full Charter, and mostly restored his earlier sentence about “many scholars believe”, but gave no edit summary and thus no motivation for that edit (including that deletion). This struck me—and still does—as uncooperative, autocratic (Wiki) behaviour and especially that unmotivated deletion as obstructive/disruptive. What can you do on a supposedly cooperative project if (some) other participants refuse to confer, consult with each other about (seeming) disagreements?

I had given my motivation for that 2017press conference already on 4 Nov, but while Vice regent ignored that given motivation there seemed little point in repeating it. It seemed (on 4 and 10 Nov) and seems (today) nevertheless obvious to me, that if Misplaced Pages considers reactions from ‘scholars’/authors on a new Charter relevant for the article, you’d first mention the most contentious items from that charter in the Wiki article – like I had done by citing Mashal from his press conferenceMay2017 – and only then give those purportedly relevant reactions etc. from authors. So, on 10 Nov 21:35, I just reentered that press conference passage (slightly condensed), just noting in my edit summary that it had been ‘removed without motivation 7Nov01:10’. Ofcourse, this resulted in a strange, bumpy junction with the next sentence about ‘many scholars believe’, but for me it was now totally unclear what that sentence still would contribute to the section if the section already cited Mr. Mashal summarizing the main (contentious) points from the new charter. My earlier attempt(4 Nov) on ‘constructively’ editing that sentence having been implicitly discarded by Vice regent I this time tried to ask him more or less directly, in the {clarification} tag, what those authors/scholars had said or written that still was a useful contribution to the section.

Vice regent here on 11 November now reports two direct quotes from those authors, one from Brenner and one from Ayoob. Brenner in the given quote has no more to say than repeating what Mashal said and what the Charter writes (accepting that P.state in 1967 lines) continued by stating the too obvious observation that if a thing has borders then there will be something else (an ‘entity’) outside those borders: both no useful contribution to the section. Ayoob’s given citation however is more interesting but seems to contain two minor slips of the keyboard (‘done not include’ → ‘does not include’ ; ‘a de facto acceptable of the preconditions’ → ‘a de facto acceptance of the preconditions’). Therefore, I now propose to replace sentence: “On 2 May 2017, Hamas presented a new charter, that many scholars believe, accepted a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders”, in section ‘Hamas#Two-state solution’ with:
“Several authors though have reacted on that new charter by writing that Hamas' "acceptance of the 1967 borders can be interpreted as a de facto acceptance of the preconditions for a two-state solution", or the like”. --Corriebertus (talk) 17:38, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Slightly adapting my proposal here of two days ago:
Thanks to this discussion here, we have found out that the gist of the referenced comment (in section ‘Hamas#Two-state solution’, first paragraph, last sentence) of Professor Ayoob (in January 2020) on the 2017 Hamas Charter is: this charter seems helpful towards finding a “two-state solution” (of the long-running Palestinian–Israeli conflicts). Ayoob’s wording there may be rather vague, but undoubtedly Professor Ayoob wanted to express there his hopeful mood (towards ‘two-state solution’) after reading the 2017charter. Unfortunately, we cannot yet generalize that interpretation to the other five authors referenced there (B.Brenner, M.Koinova, J.Zartman, A.Siniver, L.Seurat): not to Brenner who only remarked that outside of a Palestinian state there will always be something else (which is only logical); and (for now) even less to the remaining four authors. Perhaps, if Vice regent can find really useful comments (in direct quote) on the 2017charter in those books of those four or five people, we can and should still add it in our article.
I’m sorry, mr./mrs. Vice regent. Your plain listing of six authors ‘believing that the Hamas charter accepted (a state in) the 1967borders’ was useful, as long as we didn’t have direct information about what that 2017charter actually said. But since the article (since two weeks), in its section ‘Two-state solution’, refers both to the full charter and to Hamas leader Mashal presenting and summarizing it in a press conference(2017), there seems no essential, notable extra information in telling our readers that several scholars or authors had read that charter too, and had found in it what Mashal had said about that charter on his press conference, and had believed this. --Corriebertus (talk) 12:26, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I say go for it and be WP:BOLD. Seems uncontentious to make an enhancement to the phrasing that may have been misconstrued.

Thanks!

– Pedantical (talk) 15:27, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Hamas 1988 Charter

LEAD seems to completely ignore 1988 charter and its anti-Semitic text and rhetoric, as pointed out by numerous scholars. A widely discussed subject, it deserves attention in Lead. Furthermore, Overdue Weight on 2017 charter that seemed to show moderation in Hamas. Despite contrary actions as demonstrated in Hamas leadership speeches and actions (example - 2023 Hamas attack on Israel).

In its 1988 charter, Hamas advocated for the establishment of an Islamic Palestinian state encompassing the combined territories of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. It called for the military destruction of Israel, utilized antisemitic tropes, and endorsed Jihad against Jews until Judgement Day. In an attempt to moderate its image, in 2017 a revised charter was issued, replacing anti-Semitic calls with a focus on anti-Zionism.

Slightly improved wording upon a @Dovidroth version I encountered earlier. Homerethegreat (talk) 22:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Bruce Hoffman is a biased Zionist and this article is an opinion piece. That so many use this as the “golden source” about Hamas is very telling.

Focus should remain on the 2017 Revised Hamas Charter and the elimination of antisemitic rhetoric. This doc was written 30 after the original 1988 Covenant. Circumstances in Palestine in 1988 were much different than they were, and currently are, in 2017. To continue focusing on the antisemitism in the 1988 covenant is lazy. LegalResearcherSTL (talk) 01:11, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Added a source from The Economist below :). Homerethegreat (talk) 09:11, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

It's important to note that Hamas' acceptance of the 1967 borders did not just happen in 2017. Hamas signed documents that implicitly or explicitly recognized this borders in 2005, 2007, 2011 and 2012 (see this scholarly source I quoted). Hamas leaders have also made dozens of statements during those years calling for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. The 2023 attack has nothing to do with the 1967 borders discussion.

WP:RSEDITORIAL says "Scholarly sources and high-quality non-scholarly sources are generally better than news reports for academic topics". Why on earth would we remove the 5-10 scholarly sources we have in the lead over the 1967 borders and replace with a couple of newspaper op-eds? VR _talk 04:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Hoffman, I'll add a different source then. I think The Economist piece will serve us better. Here it is Homerethegreat (talk) 09:09, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Next to scholarly sources, a newspaper is a poor source. An editorial piece even more so. nableezy - 16:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Alright so adding scholary sources.

1)Rensmann, L. (2020). The Contemporary Globalization of Political Antisemitism: Three Political Spaces and the Global Mainstreaming of the “Jewish Question” in the Twenty-First Century. Journal of Contemporary Antisemitism, 3(1), p. 90.‏

"Hamas focuses on violence against Jews in Israel by means of rockets and terror acts. The Hamas Charter remains aggressively antisemitic and contains references to the notorious, century-old Russian anti-Jewish conspiracy myth forgery of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”; later to be used as Nazi propaganda. The charter accuses Jews “of relying on secret societies to foment global economic and political disasters” and calls on Hamas followers to “prepare for ‘the next round with the Jews, the merchants of war".

2)Spoerl, J. S. (2020). Parallels between Nazi and Islamist Anti-Semitism. Jewish Political Studies Review, 31(1/2), p. 216 "First, anti-Semitism is central to Hamas propaganda, as documented

copiously below, and Hamas has not renounced or ceased producing such

propaganda. For example, in April 2017, just as Hamas was about to release its

May 2017 “Document,” Hamas member of the Palestinian legislature Marwan

Abu Ras gave a Friday sermon at a mosque in the Gaza Strip in which he said,

“History attests that in every era, the Jews were the most abhorred of people.

Throughout history, the most hated race was the Jewish race…. Why did

hate the Jews? Because they are a people of treachery and betrayal….

Therefore, we can never accept the Jews…"

3)Fastenbauer, R. (2020). Islamic antisemitism: Jews in the Qur’an, Reflections of European antisemitism, Political anti-Zionism: Common codes and differences. Confronting Antisemitism from the Perspectives of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, diedit oleh Armin Lange, Kerstin Mayerhofer, Dina Porat, and Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 284 "Direct calls for use of violence in the text of

"the Hamas charter also reveal its antisemitic character" Homerethegreat (talk) 18:12, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Each of these sources are still referencing the 1988 Charter.

The 1988 Charter was written predominantly by one person -- Abdel Fattah al-Dukhan -- and the Charter became a source of much internal debate and controversy and embarrassment within the organization for decades afterwards. This is cited by both Paola Caridi and Azzam Tamimi in their books on the organization, based on interviews with their leadership.

Internally, there was a logistical difficulty overwriting the charter due to the verbiage in Article 11 describing Palestine as a "waqf" and the unavailability of members needed for democratic discussion towards changing it due to their imprisonment, but as cited directly by Caridi in "Hamas: Resistance to Government" regarding internal attitudes towards the charter: "But the embarrassment is obvious. In this as in other cases, the movement sacrifices its pragmatic side on the altar of its unity, because it considers essential for its solidity that its unique democratic centralism not be undermined. Abandoning the Charter would not be possible even for those who opposed it from the very beginning unless an extensive discussion took place including all Hamas’ different groupings ... Among the leadership who have been heard over recent years, the only one to have publicly admitted his opposition to the Mithaq is Sayyed Abu Musameh, who in October 2008 revealed that both he and Moussa Abu Marzouq – one of the Islamist movement’s most important figures – had come out against the document ... In truth, the first public statements which attempted to put the value of the Charter into its proper perspective appeared already during an earlier period, between 2003 and 2005."

There is vast evidence of Hamas's actual ideology and political orientation contradicting the charter's stated views:

1) The speech by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2eXDd6liG0

2) The 2007 Wikileak stating: "... However, some Hamas leaders have said that while they will not recognize Israel, they are prepared to accept a temporary solution based on establishing an independent Palestinian state on the territories occupied by Israel in 1967, with east Jerusalem as its capital and without settlements."

3) The verbiage in their '05 Political Manifesto prior to the '06 election

4) The letter Haniyeh wrote to the UN in 2009 expressing interest in a two-party state along the 1967 borders

5) The 2012 interview with Marzouk in the Jewish newspaper Forward where he states explicitly:

“We don’t have originally something against the Jew as a religion or against the Jew as a human being,” he said. “The problem is that the Israelis kicked out my family. They have occupied my land and injured thousands of Palestinians…. I have to differentiate between the Jew who did this problem to my people and Jews like you, who never did anything bad to my people."

and

“We have many, many policies that are not going with the charter,” he said. “But when you talk about ‘change the charter,’ there are many Hamas people talking about changing the charter. That’s a debate inside Hamas, because there are many, many policies against what’s written in the charter.”

6) Their public denunciation in 2019 of Fathi Ahmad's anti-semitic statements Deadlyhandsomeman (talk) 13:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, none of those references have anything to do with the 1967 borders and the antisemitism the first source references is from the 1988 charter, not the 2017 one. How about we add this: "Hamas's 1988 charter was widely considered antisemitic, but its 2017 charter removed this antisemitism and clarified its struggle was with Zionists not Jews." VR _talk 15:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

We're talking about the 1988 charter, still relevant, basis of Hamas, most of the organizational history is during that time. Hamas has remained anti-Semitic according to scholars and other actors, remaining adherent to sections to the original charter, per stated above. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:20, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with mentioning the 1988 charter, as long as we clarify it refers to the previous charter, and that the 2017 is the latest one, along with differences between the two.VR _talk 21:29, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

• If it has been pointed out by "numerous scholars", you ought to be able to find academic sources to cite it to as opposed to op-eds. But the key point of what you want is already there, just in a more neutral tone and cited to better sources. While historically seeking an Islamic Palestinian state over the combined territory of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip...; the rest is mostly opinions by the op-eds you posted and can't really be stated in the article voice. --Aquillion (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Homerethegreat you cannot use antisemitic as translation for antijews or anti all other religions than sunni Islam which is the case of hamas. Semitic includes Arabs and Jews. 142.59.162.50 (talk) 09:28, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism is the term used to describe hatred or rejection of people due to their Jewish origin. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

*:Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zohri said following the treaty change that "unlike Fatah, Hamas does not accept Israel's right to exist on the rest of the territory. Hamas's consistent position is not to give up any of our historical rights and not to recognize the Israeli occupation."

• My comment, according to Dr. Arnon Degani (part of the institute: Molad: The Center for the Renewal of Israeli Democracy ), ], his perception ( which he defines as existing in the academy) in relation to the issue has changed following the conduct of Hamas on October 7. That is, it is possible that relying on old studies may be wrong because the known information about the organization has changed and the study will change accordingly. If the information is added after the October 7th, it must be removed. If before , perhaps a disclaimer should be added. שמי (2023) (talk) 13:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  In an interview (2012), in which the Forward reporter confronted Abu Musa Marzuk with the anti-Semitic passages appearing in the Hamas Charter (1988). Quoting to him a hadith (tradition), which appears in the treaty, calling for the killing of the Jews, Abu Marzouk claimed that it is not all the Jews but "only those in Palestine" (that is, the Jews who live in the State of Israel are eligible for death)." ] That is, about 6 million Jews.

  He also said, "Hamas will change any agreement between the Palestinian Authority and Israel." He opposed negotiations at the time. The relations he described were "the relations (between Palestine and Israel) will be like the relations between Israel and Lebanon and Syria." Syria and Lebanon see Israel as an enemy. Syria is an ally of Iran and helps organizations in a violent struggle with Israel (https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3995389,00.html). They are in conflict with her, without ending the mutual claims. (] )

  On top of that, he talked about moving all the Palestinian refugees to Israel (that is, there won't be 2 states, Jewish and Palestinian, but a Palestinian state and a Palestinian state with a Jewish minority because of the numbers).

  I will comment that the thought that an interview with an American newspaper will necessarily reflect the organization's approach is problematic if the positions that the organization declares in its own language and to its people are not refined. שמי (2023) (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

  Homerethegreat and others שמי (2023) (talk) 23:10, 17 November 2023 (UTC) Not EC.VR _talk 23:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Jaeger, David A.; Paserman, M. Daniele (2006). "Israel, the Palestinian Factions, and the Cycle of Violence". The American Economic Review. 96 (2): 45–49. ISSN 0002-8282.
2. Bruce Hoffman. "Understanding Hamas's Genocidal Ideology". The Atlantic. Retrieved October 20, 2023.
3. Seurat 2022, p. 17. sfn error: no target: CITEREFSeurat2022 (help)

2 states

https://www.the7eye.org.il/409427 According to the polls mentioned in the source (based on Palestinian research), the organization's supporters tended to support one Islamic state rather than two states solution.

"According to the Palestinian researcher, "Since the Oslo Accords until today, explains Miari, the PLO and Fatah lead the pragmatic Palestinian camp, which recognizes Israel and is ready for a territorial compromise in the form of a two-state solution, while Hamas and Islamic Jihad lead the resistance camp that challenges the leadership of the PLO , does not recognize Israel and refuses any agreement that would include a territorial compromise with it."

Also, at 2017, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zohri said: "Unlike Fateh, Hamas does not accept Israel's right to exist on the rest of the territory. Hamas' consistent position is not to give up any of our historical rights and not to recognize the Israeli occupation." ] 2.55.18.171 (talk) 12:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

VR, Homerethegreat and others.

Can you attach the information in the chapter dealing with the position of the organization in relation to two state solustion?

In relation to these positions on the issue of the 2 states and the Hodna, is there no reason to add his position then (by the way, untill to this day Hamas has not adopted them):

After the election at 2006, the Quartet on the Middle East (the United States, Russia, the European Union (EU), and the United Nations) stated that assistance to the Palestinian Authority would only continue if Hamas renounced violence, recognized Israel, and accepted previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements, which Hamas refused to do. שמי (2023) (talk) 15:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Can you clarify which page of which book you want the quote of? VR _talk 21:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

HAMAS ON WEB

According to Dr. Harel Horev, a historian and researcher on Palestinian affairs at Tel Aviv University, "Hamas also educated the general public about the dehumanization of Israelis/Jews - in mosques, schools, summer camps, and especially - on social networks. Using sophisticated methods learned from Iran and Hezbollah, Hamas took over the most popular accounts on Palestinian networks in a covert manner that did not reveal its involvement This control gave him the ability to significantly influence the Palestinian online discourse through content that denied the humanity and right to life of Israelis. These included posters, songs and videos glorifying threats; computer games that encourage the murder of Jews; instructional videos for carrying out effective and indiscriminate stabbing and shooting attacks; as well as anti-Semitic cartoons as a central means of launching the dehumanization of the Israeli/Jew in the Palestinian online discourse. The figure of the ultra-Orthodox with the crooked nose and the evil look, which seems to have been taken from the Nazi newspaper Der Stirmer, is particularly beloved by Hamas illustrators. Last February, for example, following the stampede attack in the Ramot neighborhood in which two children and a student were murdered Yeshiva Shlomo Lederman, a Hamas man, Yassin Bahaa, published a cartoon in which a family is seen eating from a tray from a makluba with Lederman's head stuck in the center. The headline that accompanied the cartoon was "Great Friday, a great Palestinian makluba." ] In this article ], he explained how Hamas operated at least 150 websites and accounts, most of which did not bear the organization's symbols. These sites, led by the two largest sites in the Palestinian information arena - Shahab and Al-Quds Al-Akhbariya, each of which is followed by approximately one and a half million Palestinians living in the Territories - helped Hamas set the media agenda that translates into political power. He used it in order to encourage terrorist attacks. --שמי (2023) (talk) 12:23, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pedantical (talk) 13:18, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

I suggest referring to the chapter dealing with the history of the organization (the period of the second and third decade of the 21st century) the information dealing with the research done by the doctor and his conclusions. Possible wording:

According to Dr. Harel Horev, historian and researcher of Palestinian affairs at Tel Aviv University, "Hamas has also educated the general public to dehumanize Israelis/Jews - in mosques, schools and on social media. According to his research, Hamas took over the most popular accounts on Palestinian networks in a covert manner that did not reveal its involvement. This control gave him the ability to significantly influence the Palestinian discourse online through content that denies the humanity and right to life of Israelis. These included posters, songs and videos glorifying threats; computer games that encourage the murder of Jews; Training videos for carrying out effective and indiscriminate stabbing and shooting attacks; and anti-Semitic cartoons as a central means of dehumanizing the Israeli/Jew in the Palestinian online discourse.

These are 2 articles he published, within the university and in the newspaper ] ] שמי (2023) (talk) 14:25, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Probably the best place to add it would be the Media section, in which we could create a new Social Media subsection. Btw, do you know if he or someone else published similar findings in peer-reviewed journals? Alaexis_¿question? 20:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Oslo years

filrstly, it should be noted that the party of which the murderer was a member was designated as a terrorist organization by the Rabin government after the massacre in the Cave of the Patriarchs. That is, the government not only condemned, but acted operatively. Second, it should be noted at the beginning of the chapter that Hamas, as part of its opposition to the agreements, has acted violently since their signing. Here is an article describing his approach in those days: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13629399908414698. Thirdly, there is no reference to the large part Yahya Ayyash played in planning the suicide attacks and also that at the time Israel neither denied nor confirmed its involvement. Fourthly, it should be noted that Hamas hit civilian buses afterwards as part of the suicide bombings if the entire episode states the matter in an apologetic tone, as if there is any justification for it. Fifth, according to this article ], in Israel they were not sure about the very existence of the agreement between Hamas and the PLO ("Cairo Agreement") when at least one of the options was that Hamas would not operate in territories controlled by the PLO (without commitment regarding the rest). This UN publication claims in real time that the talks ended without agreement ]: " Talks between representatives of the Palestinian Authority and the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, in Cairo, ended without agreement. According to a joint communiqué issued by the negotiators, Hamas would not urge supporters to boycott the election and would not do anything that would embarrass the Palestinian Authority. PLO officials interpreted that part of the communique as an indirect commitment against violence, while Hamas insisted no such pledge was given. (The New York Times, Reuters, AFP)" --שמי (2023) (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

@שמי (2023), could you break this apart into smaller, more easily comparable edits?

Thanks!

– Pedantical (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The cessation of violence before the assassination of Yahya Ayash

According to this source, Hamas denied that there was an agreement between the Resh P and their sons to stop the violence. This is in contrast to writing. Source: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-203224/

"Talks between representatives of the Palestinian Authority and the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, in Cairo ended without agreement. According to a joint statement issued by the negotiators, Hamas would not urge supporters to boycott the election and would not do anything that would embarrass the Palestinian Authority. PLO officials interpreted that part of the communique as an indirect commitment against violence, while Hamas insisted no such pledge was given. (The New York Times, Reuter, AFP)"

شباب الزواري Hamas Youth

Unsurprisingly Hamas has a youth wing, if the cover of 'Hamas: From Resistance To Regime' by Paola Caridi is any indication. Provenance is Mahmud Hams/AFP. The headbands the two girls are wearing has elements distinct from the parent organization, but in going to the websites listed here the .ps site gets me "Try Again", even on Tor, whereas the putative Arabic site yields English with an Arabic option. First, is that website legitimate, or a honey pot? (I am not donating to Hamas either way!) Secondly, are there any secondary sources on the Hamas Youth, or Hamas Cubs? If so, this article needs a subsection on them. Thx. kencf0618 (talk) 15:54, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

"Do not change this to "terrorist" without gaining consensus on the talkpage first"

I see this comment inside the text, asking to not change the designation of Hammas to be "terrorist", but to keep it as "political and military organization". I would like to understand what's the missing piece by fellow editors to agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization. I see that the infobox already mentions that Hamas is: Designated as a terrorist group by

Australia
Canada
European Union
Israel
Japan
Paraguay
United Kingdom
United States

So why can't Misplaced Pages editors also agree to call it that? I understand that countries such as Russia, China, and Turkey, don't call it a terrorist organization. And that the UN got a plurality of votes to call it a terror organization (but not a 2/3 majority).

Is the bar the UN? What do the editors find that is missing?

Tal Galili (talk) 09:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, this debate crops up frequently on this, and a whole host of other pages, but MOS:TERRORIST advises extreme caution in using the term and using attribution when doing so. As such, this article seems to follow the MOS guidance because it attributes the label to those who have proscribed Hamas as such. The hidden text is likely there bc any such change would undoubtedly be opposed by other editors and so you cannot make changes to contentious topics that you know would potentially do so, without first gaining consensus. Yr Enw (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

It isn't just that some countries do not call them terrorists, some countries like Turkey specifically call them liberators and freedom fighters. To call any indivdual or group a terrorist in Misplaced Pages's voice, there needs to be very broad agreement amongst reliable sources. You were a little closer in attributing use of the term to the specific countries that do, but I still think that doing so in the lead requires a consensus. 331dot (talk) 10:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Yr Enw and 331dot.

Thanks for the reference to MOS:TERRORIST.

I can understand that given that Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization only by the US, UK, EU, etc. - is not a broad enough consensus to just use the term "terrorists".

In which case, I'd like to ask if there is agreement to move the section at the end of the lead (forth paragraph) to be at the end of the first paragraph. i.e.: that at the end of the first paragraph that says:

"Hamas .... is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist political ... in which its secular rival Fatah exercises control."

we will move into it the section:

"The group's attacks, including suicide bombings against civilian targets and indiscriminate rocket attacks, have been described by academics as acts of terrorism and has led many countries to designate Hamas a terrorist organization. A 2018 attempt to condemn Hamas for "acts of terror" at the United Nations failed."

The paragraph itself seems to be fine in terms of keeping the balance with regards to NPOV. However, I think it should be pushed to be the end of the first paragraph because the "notable" of the organization's definition seems more critical to convey to the casual reader as early as possible in the text. The the current second paragraph starts describing the history of Hamas (i.e.: In 1987,...), which seems less notable than the (debate over the) military tactics of the Hamas organization.

My proposition is based on the description in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section which suggest that "The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences." An example of this can also be seen at the wiki page of an organization such as ISIS, in which the relation it has to terror is already presented in the second sentence:

"The Islamic State (IS)—also known as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL; /ˈaɪsɪl/), the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), and by its Arabic acronym Da'ish—is a Salafi jihadist transnational Islamist terror group and former unrecognised quasi-state."

What to others in this thread think about my suggestion? (thanks upfront) Tal Galili (talk) 12:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I’m not sure I am entirely understanding. Are you suggesting we move the reference to Hamas’s violent tactics higher up in the lede? I am a bit ambivalent about using ISIS as an guide bc I think, for Hamas, there is a need for emphasis on violence being a tactic not an end in and itself, whereas with ISIS violence was very much an end in and of itself. Yr Enw (talk) 13:45, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

"Are you suggesting we move the reference to Hamas’s violent tactics higher up in the lede?" - yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing.

I think the current article lead for the Hamas article does not comply with Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section since, as I mentioned above, the notability of the article is not established in the first paragraph. And I think the notability of the organization is less to do with when it was founded (i.e.: second paragraph), and more to do with its actions (which deemed it, again, by many countries, to be a terrorist organization).

If you think ISIS is not a good example, I've looked for another organization to compare against, I came across Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia, in which the first paragraph included the sentence "Some sources, including United States Department of State, as well as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Azerbaijan listed it as a terrorist organization."

To be honest, I also think the example of ISIS is a good one.

You wrote that "with ISIS violence was very much an end in and of itself.", however from the Wiki article Islamic_State#Goals it says: "Since at latest 2004, a significant goal of the group has been the foundation of a Sunni Islamic state. Specifically, ISIL has sought to establish itself as a caliphate, an Islamic state led by a group of religious authorities under a supreme leader – the caliph – who is believed to be the successor to Muhammad. "

While for Hamas, the wiki article states that:

"The founding charter of Hamas mandates the killing of Jews, the destruction of the state of Israel, and advocates for the establishment of an Islamic state in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank."

So it sounds to me like both Hamas and ISIS (based on the Wiki text at present) share the goal of establishing a state, and both seemed to believe that attacking civilians (e.g.: "killing of jews" in the case of Hamas) to be a legitimate way of achieving their goals of gaining a state.

So given that both ISIS, and Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia, seem to be articles dealing with organizations that have been designated as a terrorist organization - and both seem to indicate that designation by some countries in the lead section - hence I think the same rule should apply to the current article.

WDYT? Tal Galili (talk) 14:23, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, see below.VR _talk 04:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

That is a convincing argument. Personally I don’t have an issue with the lede mentioning the proscription higher up (so long as it’s clearly attributed and not used in Wikivoice). I would imagine that the reservations may be about how much weight academic scholarship gives it specifically. Yr Enw (talk) 15:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Yr Enw.

@331dot - WDYT? are you also o.k. with what I propose? If so - how long would you like us to wait for others to weigh in before making the change? Tal Galili (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I have no objection at this time. I would suggest waiting a day or two to see what develops here. 331dot (talk) 15:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good (Y). Tal Galili (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's stop drawing parallels between Hamas and ISIL, particularly at this time when this is essentially Israel's PR playbook - aside from being jarring for that fact alone, the parallels are thin and the comparison weak. Hamas is, for one thing, an organization with considerably more history, dating from 1987, and thus as a subject as a whole requires the careful balancing of its extremely lengthy and encyclopedically worthy history with more recent content, lest we risk WP:RECENTISM. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:30, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Iskandar323,

I don't want to get into the is Hamas similar to ISIS discussion, since I don't think this would help us reach a resolution. So for the sake of discussion, let's (friendly) agree to put that discussion aside.

If you have other organization that has carried out "what have been described as terrorist attacks" as part of their agenda of forming a state that you want us to compare us against, please propose it for us to discuss.

Here, I'll propose another one: Irgun. This is a zionist organization, and its wiki page also says in the lead of the article, in the end of the first paragraph, that "The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.".

So I think what I'm proposing appears to be consistent both with my understanding of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section, as well as examples I can find in existing articles.

As for the risk of WP:RECENTISM, I've googled to see from how early there have been acts described as terrorist attacks attributed to it. For example, I found the link here which seems to indicate cases at least from 1994. So I don't see how this designation is something which is only started appearing recently.

With all of that said - would you agree to continue with my proposal? Tal Galili (talk) 19:09, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

If you have other organization that has carried out "what have been described as terrorist attacks" as part of their agenda of forming a state that you want us to compare us against, please propose it for us to discuss. Lets go with United States of America, British Empire, Israel. JVL is not a reliable source. Your example on Irgun actually illustrates the point. They committed undeniable acts of terrorism. And our article says has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts. Our article here says The group's attacks, including suicide bombings against civilian targets and indiscriminate rocket attacks, have been described by academics as acts of terrorism and has led many countries to designate Hamas a terrorist organization. We say who says they are a terrorist organization. nableezy - 19:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

As I understood, their proposal was more about where we put that description. But I could be wrong. Yr Enw (talk) 19:20, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Ditto. I think initially it was that we call them a terrorist organization in WikiVoice (or asking why we don't), and then turned into "OK, fine, but can we say that x, y, and z call them a terrorist group, but higher up in the lead." --Orgullomoore (talk) 19:24, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@Nableezy, what @Yr Enw and @Orgullomoore wrote is correct.

I was convinced to not call them "terrorists", but think the text in the lead should move from paragraph 4 to 1.

Would you be o.k. with this suggestion? Tal Galili (talk) 19:30, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I was mostly answering the whataboutism showing that there are any number of states founded on terrorist acts, including Israel, that dont mention it at all. Id be fine moving the characterization as a terrorist organization by such and such to the first paragaph, along with the view that it is a resistance organization. nableezy - 21:00, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

As a point of interest, the Provisional Irish Republican Army article has it in the lead, when it was obviously not recognised as such by a great number of states. I’m not keen on over-emphasising the point, but it does seem notability could have role to play here. Yr Enw (talk) 21:13, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

cool, thanks. Tal Galili (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

There are many similarities between ISIL and Hamas, in particular their shared philosophy that sharia should be imposed by force and that suicide attacks on civilians are a means of attaining paradise. That this or that country incorporates this similarity into their PR playbook, or that you find that jarring, is irrelevant for our purposes. --Orgullomoore (talk) 19:30, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Similarities are easy to find: we're all human, for instance, or at least I assume that there are not AI chatbots patrolling here yet. Leaving aside the rather two-dimensial description above, the devil-in-the-detail of defining things hinges on the differences. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

All humans, yes. All believe that sharia should be imposed by force and that suicide attacks on civilians are a means of attaining paradise, no. If so, we would all be Islamists and jihadists. --Orgullomoore (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, doubling down. Good talk. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Im not aware of Hamas believing Sharia should be compelled by force, rather than through democratic means. As far as suicide bombings, thats a wee bit simplistic view of their motivation. nableezy - 21:02, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

We're entering forum territory; send me an email and we can chat all day long about it. --Orgullomoore (talk) 21:06, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Well I feel its still content, Im disputing the usage of the term Jihadist and the comparison to ISIS. nableezy - 21:21, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

In that case what you and I (and Iskandar) believe is not relevant. As for scholarly/reliable resources calling it jihadi(st), see: ("Hezbollah, a Shiite militia, and Hamas, a Sunni jihadi group and an affiliate of the Muslim Brothers, are both supported by the Iranian regime.") (" By emphasizing the centrality of “Jihad of the Sword” Hamas's ideas reveal a certain similarity to, or inspiration by, radical Salafi-jihadist Islamic movements.") ("Al Qaeda Confronts Hamas: Divisions in the Sunni Jihadist Movement and its Implications for U.S. Policy" . . . "To explore these distinctions, this article examines the different historical trajectories and current arguments between two of the most well-known Sunni jihadists: Al Qaeda and Hamas.") ("Al-Qa'ida and Hamas: The Limits of Salafi-Jihadi Pragmatism") ("Hamas: A Further Exploration of Jihadist Tactics" . . . "The Islamist answer to solving the Palestinian question, Hamas advocates violent jihad until Israel is destroyed. All attempts at negotiation or a peace settlement are looked upon as a short-term truce and not a permanent peace. The organization began during the first Palestinian uprising, in December 1987. It evolved from a collection of Islamic fundamentalist and jihadist movements in Gaza, such as the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, and it absorbed the Palestinian jihadist movement, Al-Jihad (PIJ).") ("Nationalist jihadi groups, such as Hizbullah and Hamas, are able to attract high levels of public support, whereas all other types of jihadi groups typically remain marginal to society . . .") ("Hamas combines the Islamist ideology with Jihadist action.").

As for the comparison with ISIS, see: ("In the opinion of Hamas, the solution of the Palestine problem rests in the uprooting of the State of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state in its place.") ("In addition to the doctrine of the Islamic state, Hamas also adheres to the doctrine of Palestine sacrality.") ("Accordingly, Hamas adopts violence as a strategic choice, first in its struggle to seize power from Fatah, and second in its struggle to destroy the state of Israel and replace it with an Islamic state.") ("Moreover, Hamas in the Gaza Strip considers itself an Islamic party more than a national party. Especially since they supported the Islamic brotherhood when they took control of the government in Egypt. During that time relationships with Egypt enhanced. This relationship was not a result of national gathering but rather an Islamic gathering. Additionally, several announcements have been distributed in Gaza during the past few weeks with the ISIS name, along with several ISIS flags found in the region. If Hamas is not an ally in the current phase, it might be in the future due to the common values.") ("Hamas Seeds Violent Videos on Sites With Little Moderation: The strategy mirrors efforts by extremist groups like the Islamic State and Al Qaeda in years past.") ("On the surface of it, the Sunni Islamist group Islamic State would seem like a logical partner for the Sunni Islamist group Hamas.") --Orgullomoore (talk) 22:30, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, of course they advocate for the establishment of an Islamist state in all of Palestine. But they do so under the view of gaining that through democracy within an established state in Palestine. And they have been denounced by jihadist groups for that. See for example here (Yet it is important to recognize that Hamas and the global jihadi groups are deeply at odds ideologically. Indeed, in its early days, ISIS declared takfir, or excommunication, on Hamas for a host of perceived transgressions. ... But ideological divergences will limit the extent to which jihadis will be able to seize this moment to reenergize their movement. ... Yet in 2006, Hamas participated in and won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections, going on to form a unity government with Fatah, the dominant faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Al Qaeda’s leadership erupted in condemnation. Bin Laden warned Hamas about the polytheistic nature of democracy, underscoring the “prohibition on joining polytheistic assemblies.” In a 2007 speech, he went so far as to say that the Hamas leadership, by embracing the Palestinian Authority and thereby acknowledging the “agreements” that recognize Israel’s right to exist (referring to the Oslo accords), had “forsaken their religion.”) It consistently treats jihadist groups in one camp, Hamas as an Islamist militant group on the other. Or Rand Corportation: (The charter published by Hamas in 1988 perhaps clarifies the group’s reluctance to join the al-Qaeda network. It makes a clear distinction between global Islamist movements and the Hamas movement in Palestine: --The Islamic Resistance Movement is an outstanding type of Palestinian movement. It gives its loyalty to Allah, adopts Islam as a system of life, and works toward raising the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Therefore, in the shadow of Islam, it is possible for all followers of different religions to live in peace and with security over their person, property, and rights. In the absence of Islam, discord takes form, oppression and destruction are rampant, and wars and battles take place.-- So while al-Qaeda and Hamas have similar ideological roots, Hamas’s interpretation of its role in the Islamic community is narrower and focused fundamentally on the Palestinian question. This narrow focus is an important element in Hamas’s ideology. Moreover, the group has been consistent in its beliefs. Nevertheless, a shift in its focus toward the United States is possible under some circumstances, given Hamas’s strategic and operational objectives. ... It continues to argue that it does not want a civil war in the territories and will pursue its Islamic agenda through democratic means after the creation of a Palestinian state.) nableezy - 22:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

So you've come to accept the term Jihadist? I didn't see anything contradicting that term in your response, and the Foreign Affairs article seems to support it. The FA article and many others make the distinction that Hamas focuses its jihad on the Islamicization or de-Judaization of Palestine as opposed to the whole world, i.e., they are a (mostly) nationalist jihadist group as opposed to a global jihadist group, but I don't think there is any dispute that they openly endorse and advocate jihad in pursuit of an Islamic state. ISIS and Hamas have many similarities. They even do sharia patrols, allow male guardians to block women who want to travel for education (HRW), and execute political opponents. Hardly a beacon of democracy.

As for their willingness to pretend to use democratic process as a stepping stone to sharia, that's an interesting little feature, but it doesn't change the basic nature of the beast. I'm happy to agree Hamas and ISIS are not identical. --Orgullomoore (talk) 23:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

No, my point on the first source is it separates jihadist groups from Hamas, treating them as competing interests basically. Hamas is militant, Islamist, nationalist, not about imposing Sharia over the west, but aims to establish an Islamist state in Palestine through democratic means. Most sources I see do not describe them as jihadist, which from my reading is used in western contexts for groups that seek to impose such an order globally through violent means. Hamas’ terror attacks are about Palestine not about Islam. The Islamist part is their internal platform for Palestine. Their violence is Palestinian nationalist. nableezy - 00:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

If Jihadist means "militant Islamic movements that are perceived as existentially threatening to the West," as Misplaced Pages says, then the only thing keeping Hamas from being indisputably jihadist would be that it is not "perceived as existentially threatening to the West," because Hamas is definitely a militant Islamic movement. Now, two questions arise: (1) Is it true that to be jihadist an organization must be threatening to "the West"? I don't see why. It is axiomatic that Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source, so we shouldn't say it's so because Misplaced Pages says it's so. According to the article, it was first used by Indian and Pakistani mass media, obviously not part of the West. (2) Is Israel part of the West? Many would say that it is. It is west of Australia. Again consulting Misplaced Pages: "In modern usage, Western world refers to Europe and to areas whose populations largely originate from Europe, through the Age of Discovery's imperialism." Some would say that "Israel is a quintessentially 'Western' entity—democratic, wealthy, educated, teeming with immigrants from white-dominated regions like Europe and the United States." That is one of the major criticisms of Israel, no? That it is a Western invention carved out and propped up by Western superpowers in the middle of the Orient. Though Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel right now, it certainly aspires to be. Assuming the "the West" aspect of the definition is correct, what part of "the West" is perceived as threatened? Intuitively, I would say liberalism, democracy, separation of church and state, etc.: the so-called "Western ideals." Hamas, if it were powerful enough, would threaten these, as evidenced by its patrolling of beaches for un-Islamic swimsuits, its willingness to allow men to control women, its summary execution of political opponents, and its insistence on framing literally everything in terms of religious fundamentalism. Given all of this, are we arguing that Hamas cannot be jihadist merely because it's not perceived as threatening enough? Or because it is only perceived as threatening to non-Western Israel? Seems arbitrary. On the other hand, Firestone, quoted in the first footnote of Jihadism writes that, while the term is ill-defined, jihadism is essentially transnational or global Islamism/political Islam. Adopting this definition, the characteristic disqualifying Hamas from the jihadist category is not its failure to threaten the West but rather the confinement of its activities to Palestine, although, this assumes that Israel does not exist and that Tel Aviv and Sderot are located inside the State of Palestine. Applying this definition, Jaish-e-Mohammed would not be Jihadist ("The group's primary motive is to separate Kashmir from India and merge it into Pakistan"), but it frequently is described as such, and is described as such on Misplaced Pages.--Orgullomoore (talk) 01:19, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I know your Arabic is probably stronger than mine but i think you’re using jihadist the way an Arabic speaker would, not how an English speaker would. Jihad fi sabil illah covers a range of things that western audiences wouldn’t really association with "jihadism". From my reading of western sources jihadism is usually meant to denote acts of international terrorism by Islamist or even just Islamic organizations or people, though usually with the aim of establishing an Islamist state. But I do think there is a distinction between nationalist and and religious ones, and I think sources put Hamas's violent actions in the former camp more often. nableezy - 02:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• I was the one who added the note initially. Misplaced Pages is supposed to present events from an impartial international perspective. Hamas just isn't universally reviled by world governments in the say way ISIS is that would justify flat-out calling it a terrorist organisation in the opening sentence, or mentioning its terrorist designation by (largely Israel alligned) countries within the first few sentences. That said, I'm not opposed to saying that A. that Hamas is a jihadist group and B. that Hamas has carried out what have been described as terrorist attacks. (I added the latter to the lead in fact). Reading Britannica, their position on describing Hamas is similar . Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  I would oppose calling Hamas jihadist, the literature calls them Islamist much more consistently Yr Enw (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. I think "jihadist" is fair, though, given their charter and istishhad worship. Sources calling them this abound. I think one must be an Islamist to be a jihadist, though an Islamist is not necessarily a jihadist. --Orgullomoore (talk) 18:47, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  I don’t know of many scholars who apply the term “jihadist” to Hamas (certainly not consistently)? They might mention “jihad” as part of their programme, but “jihadist” is a label that (as far as I know) mostly tends to get used with Salafi groups. Obviously there’s not a consistent definition across all scholarship, but Islamist is much broader Yr Enw (talk) 19:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Jihadist in a western context usually refers to acts of international terror by Islamist groups, and I dont think it is usually applied to Hamas, which has thus far restricted its attacks to Israel and the occupied territories. nableezy - 21:03, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

  Hey @Hemiauchenia, thank you for the context and discussion.

  As I mentioned in other parts of this discussion, I understand the considerations mentioned regarding MOS:TERRORIST, and I agreed that in the current state of things (having a range of countries taking different positions), then calling it a terrorist organization in Misplaced Pages will not be appropriate. So we're in agreement about that.

  What I've instead proposed is to move the text, which is already available in the article's lead, from the 4th paragraph to the 1st paragraph. My claim is that doing so would be in the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Lead section (as I've mentioned above), as well as aligned with other articles such as Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia and Irgun, have also taken.

  I think this aligns with the B item you've mentioned "hat Hamas has carried out what have been described as terrorist attacks.", all I'm suggesting is to move it to the first paragraph.

  WDYT? Tal Galili (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, see below.VR _talk 04:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Most of the characteristics you describe are simply Islamist. Also Israel = "liberalism, democracy, separation of church and state" ... pfft ... less and less according to the news the last few decades. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Not Iskandar dissing Israel again! --Orgullomoore (talk) 03:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Hey, don't take it from me - just ask any human rights monitor. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:33, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm an Israeli (my family has lived here for at least 8 generations), and I agree with you that the Israeli government for at least the past 15 years has become more radical, less democratic, and more religious. This is why so many of us are taking part in the 2023 Israeli judicial reform protests. That said, I think the focus of the current thread should be on including the terrorist discussion in the lead section (which a consensus seems to have been reached). Thank you all for your input <3 Tal Galili (talk) 09:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for a fruitful discussion, I feel I've learned from it. I have moved forward and made the change, as discussed throughout this thread. Please let me know if you have any open issues with the edit. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Hamas#%22Do_not_change_this_to_%22terrorist%22_without_gaining_consensus_on_the_talkpage_first%22. Thanks all for caring about our shared resource and striving, in good faith, to find common grounds for productively describe reality as best as we can. <3 Tal Galili (talk) 08:15, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure if anyone agrees with that above. I certainly don't because the long-standing placement made sense because it was adjacent to Hamas' anti-Israeli ideology. The previous placement was also chronologically consistent. One thing we can do is give a note at "Hamas... is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist political and military organization" to indicate that some countries consider it terrorist.VR _talk 04:18, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's consider organizations that have been considered terrorist organization by many countries but also have formed governments:

• Hezbollah. The terrorist designation is mentioned in the 4th paragraph of a 4 lead paragraph (meaning last paragraph).
• African National Congress. The terrorist designation is mentioned at the end of the second paragraph (in a three paragraph lead).
• Palestine Liberation Organization. The terrorist designation is mentioned in the second paragraph of a two paragraph lead (meaning the last paragraph).
• Muslim Brotherhood. The terrorist designation is mentioned in paragraphs 4 and 6 of a 6 paragraph lead.VR _talk 04:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I think a better comparison for Hamas is the Provisional Irish Republican Army (which currently sits in government as Sinn Fein), which mentions the terrorist designation early on. I agree that "many" is a WP:WEASEL word, though any attempt to clarify it seems likely to run into opposition. I don't think we're going to get unanimous agreement regarding almost any element of this article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 04:33, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm confused by that sentence "It was designated a terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom and an unlawful organisation in the Republic of Ireland, both of whose authority it rejected." If the Irish designation was repealed, it is incumbent upon that sentence to say so. If not, I'm curious why PIRA didn't repeal it after coming to power? VR _talk 04:52, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The PIRA and Hamas are different in that the political and military wings of the PIRA/Sinn Fein denied (and continue to deny) that they were affiliated, even if it is obvious to everybody else that they were in fact inseparable. Therefore there was no reason for Sinn Fein to try to rehabilitate the moribund PIRA one they got into government, as making the connection explicit would expose them to liability. This is getting quite off topic though. Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

SF aren't in government in the Republic. Yr Enw (talk) 07:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Even if we use that example, it only contains a single sentence on the terrorism while the rest of the military activities are covered later below. The way Talgalili edited the lead, pretty much most of Hamas' military activities are in the lead, making it seem like Hamas is mainly known for rocket attacks, which is a very Israel-centric view and denies Hamas' long history as a political, social and religious organization.VR _talk 20:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Talgalili this is edit-warring. The longstanding version before your bold edit on Nov 21 does not contain most of the military activities in the first paragraph. Indeed this is how the lead was before October 7 (when the current war started). It was like this in 2022 and so on. I suggest you leave the long-standing discussion in place while discussion is ongoing. Other options are WP:MEDIATION and WP:RFC.VR _talk 20:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

rape and other war crimes

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Hamas. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

I think the rape testimonials that have been published should be included. All quotes below are from the CNN article in the references below.

1. According to Israeli police superintendent, "officers have collected more than 1,000 statements and more than 60,000 video clips related to the attacks that include accounts from people who reported seeing women raped", and that witnesses to the aftermath say that "women and girls caught in the rampage were brutalized sexually, as well as physically tortured and killed."

2. A paramedic said that the body of a teenage girl was found "on the floor was on her stomach her pants are pulled down toward her knees and there’s a bullet wound on the back side of her neck near her head There’s a puddle of blood around her head and there’s remains of semen on the lower part of her back.” He added that a second teenage girl on the bed "had bruises all over her body and a bullet wound to the chest".

3. "Others reported similar horrors at the Nova music festival where hundreds of young people were killed". "An organizer of the festival said he saw female victims with no clothes as he made his escape." He said that “their legs were spread out and some of them were butchered".

4. A survivor told about the rape she witnessed, "she was alive, she stood on her feet and she was bleeding from her back. I saw that he was pulling her hair. She had long brown hair. I saw him chop off her breast and then he was throwing it toward the road, tossed it to someone else and they started playing with it." The witness added: "I remember seeing another person raping her, and while he was still inside her he shot her in the head."

5. It should also be included that babies and children were kidnapped (it is mentioned only in the more general sentence that Hamas "took civilian and soldier hostages back to Gaza").

• Why it should be changed:

In my understanding these details are extremely relevant to the topic at hand. Not including any of them amounts to hiding information dearly relevant to the understanding of Hamas and its tactics. The detailed testimonials are necessary as well because they are unusual in their cruelty, once more proving relevance to the understanding of many aspects of the organization named Hamas and its war tactics. The age of the kidnapped (the fact there are dozens of children and even babies among them) is also relevant to understanding the methods of Hamas.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Jake Tapper and Kirsten Appleton, CNN: Israel investigates sexual violence committed by Hamas as part of October 7 horror Quickly-now (talk) 19:38, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

References

1. "Hamas Refuses to Recognize Israel". The New York Times. September 22, 2006.

Fake website

The domain Hamas.com is owned by an Israeli company called wix.com that specializes in websites and the link isn’t the real link of the organization. The real link is https://hamas.ps/en/ Someone should fix this 84.32.71.40 (talk) 10:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Wix is a website building company. It seems that many Palestinians sites choose to host their websites at this platform. Is there any source that it is not one of them, but some-kind of Israeli conspiracy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a06:c701:4b36:7100:aff8:db82:23d2:a03e (talk • contribs) 11:34, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Apparently it was hijacked."Israelis Hijack Hamas.com, Turning It Into a Display of October 7 Atrocities". Haaretz. --Orgullomoore (talk) 21:33, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

That said, I don't see that we link to Hamas.com from the article. Am I missing it? If not, why are we talking about it, IP? --Orgullomoore (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Potential POV image description

This edit restored a description that appears to me to give rise to a potential WP:NPOV issue. The image doesn't need the caveat that "Hamas started the war". But I haven't reverted bc I know it will inevitably be "un-reverted", so looking for some consensus here first. Yr Enw (talk) 11:49, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

If nobody objects I’m just gonna do it, coz it’s annoying me it being there. I guess if it’s unreverted, we can discuss here Yr Enw (talk) 10:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry nobody replied. I agree with you. It doesn't make sense to say ", which Hamas started . . ." It's awkward, if nothing else. People can figure that out. --Orgullomoore (talk) 10:51, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

There, I did it for you. You can save your revert for something else. --Orgullomoore (talk) 10:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Yr Enw (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring

This revert is hopelessly POV, I changed this a while back so as not to treat the past as if it were current and now it is reverted back in doing exactly that.

Editors opinions invited as to the appropriateness of this material in this location and worded as is? Selfstudier (talk) 18:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I think the current formulation is good and provides historical context without which the reader cannot understand what Hamas is. I am open to other formulations, but I think the original treaty need to be mentioned in the lead. Dovidroth (talk) 18:47, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how overemphasizing a single political document from the late 80s does help readers understand anything. It certainly helps paint a picture, but I don't think that picture has anything to do with helping readers understand. The old charter is barely referenced by Hamas; they have said over the years to ignore it; and in 2017 they expressly overwrote it, presumably in response to the massive over-fixation on the moribund charter released amid the South Lebanon conflict. Politics evolve. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:21, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The current formulation as mentioned above is a reflection of Hamas' ideological ideas and history. Indeed the charter was Hamas' charter for 85% of its history. Indeed it is well backed that Hamas seeks the establishment of a state that reflects Sunni Islamic law. Furthermore, rhetoric and Hamas actions continues to reflect anti-Semitic tropes. Indeed Hamas' intentions has been documented and spoken of extensively. Since this remains an important aspect of Hamas' ideology. It remains relevant to maintain it in the Lead. We should attempt to reflect the truth, especially in light of the danger of accidentally misinforming the reader. Homerethegreat (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I think a lit review might be in order, as we ought to lean much more into the weighting scholarship gives to the documents. You could be right (or not), but it’s WP:OR without a look at how the scholarship weighs the two. Yr Enw (talk) 20:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The inclusion of the original founding charter of Hamas in the lead section of its Misplaced Pages page is both due and relevant. This charter, a critical document for understanding the group's historical and ideological origins, is essential for providing a comprehensive and timeless view of Hamas, avoiding the negative implications of WP:RECENTISM.

Here is how I see it:

• Providing basic details on the founding charter in the lead section is particularly important for understanding the evolution of Hamas ideology from its original, openly antisemitic stance to a position more focused on anti-Zionism. In line with WP:LEDE, the lead section should provide a concise overview of the article's topic. This includes identifying the topic, establishing context, explaining why the topic is notable, and summarizing important points, including prominent controversies.
• Furthermore, the current length of the lead section does not exceed the rule of thumb. This version stands as a comprehensive overview of Hamas, including its foundation, objectives, and notable shifts in policy and ideology, without being excessively detailed or lengthy.
• Based on a quick lit review that I performed, prior to 2017, all sources (naturally) talk about the original charter, while after 2017, most sources appear to discuss both the new and the original charter, highlighting the difference.
• One example for how scholarly works on Hamas frame the topic can be seen in this quote

  The main source of Ḥamās’ philosophy can be seen in the Ḥamās Covenant which was published by Aḥmad Yāsīn on 18 August 1988 (Hamas Covenant 1988). The principles of the charter emphasise that ideologically this is an Islamic revivalist movement with a militant dimension. The two main pillars of Ḥamās ideology are: Palestinian nationalism and Arab Islamism (Gleis and Berti 2012: 134–143). In May 2017, Ḥamās published “A Document of General Principles and Policies” emphasising the nationalistic character of the movement (Hamas 2017). According to Ḥamās, the Jews do not have a right to any portion of Palestinian land.

Marokwitz (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

The above assertion "the Jews do not have a right to any portion of Palestinian land" (presumbly referring to the entire land from river to the sea) is contradicted by most scholarly sources that have studied Hamas in depth. See the sources below.

Here are 6 scholarly sources that say Hamas accepted the 1967 borders in 2017. WP:SCHOLARSHIP indicates that scholarly sources are preferred:

• 1. The book The Foreign Policy of Hamas was written by Leila Seurat, a researcher at the prestigious School for Advanced Studies in the Social Sciences. In it she writes,

Khaled Mesh’al describes the Document of General Principles and Policies published on 1 May 2017 as a new political benchmark for Hamas. Although the recognition of 1967 borders goes back to the Cairo Agreement and the Prisoners Document, respectively, signed in 2005 and 2006 and is an integral part of all intra-Palestinian agreements signed since then (2007, 2011, 2012, 2014), this document introduces for the first time the recognition as an integral part of the Islamic resistance’s programme, and not simply as a programme shared by the set of Palestinian political players. page 61-62

Indeed, since 2006, Hamas has unceasingly highlighted its acceptance of the 1967 borders, as well as accords signed by the PLO and Israel. This position has been an integral part of reconciliation agreements between Hamas and Fatah since 2005: the Cairo Agreement in 2005, the Prisoners’ Document in 2006, the Mecca Agreement in 2007 and finally the Cairo and Doha Agreements in 2011 and 2012. Yet these compromises linked to the strict framework of reconciliation agreements between Palestinians had never been displayed as an integral part of Hamas strategy. From 2017 on, Hamas would endorse them as its own political stands and not as simple concessions to Fatah. page 18-19

• 2. Maria Koinova. Diaspora Entrepreneurs and Contested States. Oxford University Press. p. 150.. Author is Professor of International Relations, University of Warwick.

The 2017 Hamas charter accepted a Palestinian state with 1967 borders, but still without recognizing Israel.

• 3. Mohammed Ayoob. The Many Faces of Political Islam, Second Edition. University of Michigan Press. p. 133.

In its May 2017 charter, Hamas expressed willingness to accept a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders of Israel and Palestine. The statement, however, done not include recognition of Israel or acceptance of the solution proposed by the Oslo Accords. Nevertheless, acceptance of the 1967 borders can be interpreted as a de facto acceptable of the preconditions for a two-state solution.

• 4. Bjorn Brenner. Gaza Under Hamas. I. B. Tauris. p. 206. Author was a lecturer at Swedish Defence University.

The new document still referred to Palestine as territory 'from the river to the sea'. However, it also added that it accepted the pre-1967 lines as the borders of a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital and the right of return for refugees. While not explicitly saying what would be on the other side of these borders, this nevertheless acknowledged the existence of another entity there.

• 5. Asaf Siniver (ed.). Routledge Companion to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.

The year 2017 saw another significant development inside Hamas...the accept of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, which Hamas hoped would improve its relations with the West.

• 6. Jonathan Zartman. "Conflict in the Modern Middle East:An Encyclopedia of Civil War, Revolutions, and Regime Change". ABC-CLIO. p. 230. Zartman is associate professor at Air Command and Staff College.

Hamas updated its charter in early 2017, accepting the idea of a negotiated two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, implicitly recognizing Israel's right to exist.

• 7. Tareq Baconi. Hamas contained: The rise and pacification of Palestinian resistance. Stanford University Press. p. 230,245.:

demonstrated that on the most official level, Hamas accepted the creation of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders, UN Resolution 194 for the right of return, and the notion of restricting armed struggle to operate within the limits of international law. Although not breaking any new ground in terms of political concessions, the document was a powerful intervention that restated more forcefully than before the position Hamas has adopted since at least 2007, if not since the 1990s. page 245

Hamas said “Why should we be forced to explicitly recognize Israel if we’ve already indicated we have a de facto acceptance of its presence?” Hamas’s implicit acceptance of Israel has gone far beyond what many Israeli political parties, including the dominant ruling Likud party, have offered Palestinians within their charters. page 230

• 8. Tom Lansford (2019). Political Handbook of the World 2018-2019. SAGE Publications. p. 1815.

In May 2017 Hamas announced a major policy reversal and declared that it was willing to accept the creation of an independent, though interim, Palestinian state, alongside Israel, if that state existed along the pre-1967 borders. Hamas had previously been unwilling to compromise on territorial issues. The organization emphasized that its statement did not imply a recognition of Israel.

• 9. Jacqueline S. Ismael, Tareq Y. Ismael, Glenn Perry. Government and Politics of the Contemporary Middle East Continuity and Change. Taylor & Francis. p. 106?.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Hamas on multiple occasions has accepted, in principle, the existence of Israel, as delineated by its 1967 borders and dropped the call for destruction of Israel from its manifesto. When asked whether Hamas would abandon the destruction of Israel as part of its platform, Mahmoud Zahar, a Hamas leader and a 'hard-liner', answered 'If Israel is ready to tell the people what is the official border, after that we are going to answer this question'. Khaled Meshal, Hamas' political bureau chief then based in Damascus admitted in 2008 that Hamas' leadership are 'realists' who recognize the existence of an 'entity named Israel'. Pushed further, Meshal continued that Hamas accepts 'the national accord for a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders'. More specifically, another Hamas leader, Ghazi Hamad went even further in January 2009 (in spite of the sustained Israeli attack Gaza had just suffered), admitting that Hamas would be satisfied with the minimalist goals of reclaiming the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem (i.e. territories lost in 1967), implicitly accepting Israel's pre-1967 borders.

• 10.
• 11. Basem Ezbidi. "Not Rebel Governance? Hamas's Rule". Rebel Governance in the Middle East. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 308.

The 2017 update of its charter that obliterates the movement's relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood, indicates Hamas's acceptance of the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders — with the implication of recognising Israel—and the willingness to negotiate and accept a renewable hudna (armistice) with Israel.

• 12. Shameer Modongal:

There are two competing interpretations over the purpose of Hamas’s Hudna. While some consider Hamas’s offer as a tactic to get time for a future military attack and conquer all the land of Palestine, others see it as an Islamic way of conflict resolution to achieve permanent/long-term peace in the future (Tuastad 2010b: 5)...On the one side...the Islamist movement will never give up the dream of establishing a Palestinians state and wiping out Israel...On the other ...the demand for Hudna seems to be a genuine demand for peace... "In Arab and Islamic tradition, a Hudna constitute a phase: first the ceasefire, Hudna, then the sulh, reconciliation. The most common outcome of the Hudna phase is a final peace agreement”.

• 13. Baconi, who wrote one of the more comprehensive books on Hamas, writes:

stressed that the constant offering of ceasefires on land occupied in 1967 was another indication that Hamas implicitly recognized Israel. Meshal’s views were mirrored by others; Hamas’s finance minister in Gaza stated that “a long-term ceasefire as understood by Hamas and a two-state settlement are the same. It’s just a question of vocabulary.”

• 14. Tristan Dunning writes:

"A hudna extends beyond the Western concept of a ceasefire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, non-violent resolution to their differences." Hamas has also repeatedly and publicly committed itself to accepting a popular referendum on any peace agreement reached by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Instances of this may be found in... Hamas’ acceptance of the Arab League initiative, entailing full normalisation with Israel in return for a withdrawal from Arab territories captured in 1967 and the establishment of a Palestinian state.

• 15. Loren Lybarger writes:

Hamas too would signal a willingness to accept a long-term "hudna" (cessation of hostilities, truce) along the armistice lines of 1948 (an effective acceptance of the two-state formula).

• 16. Krista Weigand writes:

Hamas's offers of long term cease-fires and acceptance of a two-state solution with pre-I967 borders...Hamas leaders continue to suggest that they are willing to compromise on their claim for all of historic Palestine, yet their claims are mostly ignored...Though Hamas has not stated it explicitly, the conditions under which it proposed the truce would in fact provide recognition of the existence of the state of Israel with its pre-1967 boundaries. Because of Hamas's unwillingness to explicitly recognize the state of Israel...

• 17. Ayoob (2009, page 126) writes:

The Hamas leadership has increasingly begun to emphasize the importance of Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as the precondition for a long-term truce (hudna). Hamas's leaders have also accepted the idea that the future of Palestine ought to be determined either on the basis of a popular referendum or by freely elected representatives of the Palestinian people and that Hamas will abide by such a decision. Such statements have often implied that the long-term truce as conceived by Hamas leaves open the possibilities of mutual recognition by Palestine and Israel and of a settlement based on the borders of 1967, if the Palestinian people accept it of their own volition. Hamas's decision to participate in the 2006 elections to the Palestine National Council after having boycotted the 1996 elections because they were held within the Oslo framework is probably the best indication that it has decided to work within the two-state framework, without explicitly admitting that fact.

1. Christie, Niall (2020). Muslims and Crusaders: Christianity’s Wars in the Middle East, 1095–1382, from the Islamic Sources.
2. ^ Bartal, Shaul. “Ḥamās: The Islamic Resistance Movement.” Handbook of Islamic Sects and Movements, edited by Muhammad Afzal Upal and Carole M. Cusack, Brill, 2021, pp. 379–401. JSTOR,
3. Shameer Modongal (2023). Islamic Perspectives on International Conflict Resolution. Routledge. p. 121.
4. Baconi (2018), page 108
5. Tristan Dunning (2016). Hamas, Jihad and Popular Legitimacy. Routledge. p. 179-180.
6. Loren D. Lybarger (2020). Palestinian Chicago. University of California Press. p. 199.
7. Krista E. Wiegand (2016). Bombs and Ballots: Governance by Islamist Terrorist and Guerrilla Groups. Taylor & Francis. p. 165.

New proposal

Following my reading of the literature, I'd like to make a proposal for a shorter, more neutral version of the text in dispute that keeps the most important elements. Hope that this is accepted:

The main pillars of Hamas ideology are Palestinian nationalism and Arab Islamism. The 1988 founding charter of Hamas, published by Aḥmad Yasin, frames its ideology as a struggle against Jews and calls for the destruction of the state of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state in the area that is today Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. In 2017, Hamas updated its charter to support a transitional Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, without recognizing Israel. The long-term goal of Hamas is disputed: some view Hamas's offer of a truce based on the 1967 borders as consistent with a two-state solution, while others believe Hamas retains the long-term objective to establish one state in former Mandatory Palestine. While the original covenant is often criticized as antisemitic, referencing a hadith which states that the Day of Judgment would not come until Muslims fight and kill the Jews, the 2017 charter removed the antisemitic language, clarifying that Hamas's struggle is with Zionists, not Jews.

Marokwitz (talk) 23:03, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I like it. --Orgullomoore (talk) 23:04, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Fine with this compromise. Dovidroth (talk) 03:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the above version for two reasons:

1. is that the topic of the hadith is so nuanced it can't be covered in the lead. The hadith you refer to predates the existence of Hamas by more than a thousand years. The discussion belongs in the body and would be off-topic for the lead.

2. You completely omitted the Hamas agreements on the 1967 borders with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007.VR _talk 03:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Also what exactly is "Arab Islamism"? There is no mention of that anywhere in the body, and the lead should not be introducing novel concepts that are not covered in the rest of the body.VR _talk 03:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

@Vice regent: Would you be OK with While the original covenant was antisemitic, the 2017 charter . . .? --Orgullomoore (talk) 05:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

"While the original covenant is often criticized as antisemitic, the 2017 charter removed the related components, clarifying that Hamas's struggle is with Zionists, not Jews." ? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I prefer Iskandars version. VR _talk 14:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I struck out the first sentence.Marokwitz (talk) 21:19, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

That works for me. Thanks. --Orgullomoore (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried to preserve chronological order. I omitted the Hamas agreements with Fatah since I assessed it as undue weight, after surveying the academic sources; I have no significant problem with putting it back if you think this is a crucial detail. Regarding Arab Islamism, you are right that the term is not used elsewhere , this sentence can be removed as it is not crucial for the proposal. Marokwitz (talk) 05:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Yep, "Arab Islamism" should just be "Islamism." I didn't catch that. --Orgullomoore (talk) 05:52, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this is a good compromise, as it appropriately balances the original charter, fundamental for understanding Hamas' ideology, with debates surrounding later actions and revisions.

The hadith mentioned is crucial for understanding the ideological foundations of Hamas, and the agreements with Fatah are not leadworthy. I agree with Orgullomoore, the term 'Arab Islamism' should be replaced with 'Islamism,' which is directly supported by the sources. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Did you see the scholarly sources above? I provided 17 which agree that Hamas accepted the 1967 borders. We must give WP:DUE weight. VR _talk 14:46, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I do think the Farah agreements are crucial detail because of two reasons. First scholarly sources emphasize that 2017 wasn't the first time Hamas accepted the 1967 borders. Second Hamas Fatah conflict and conciliation are a significant series of events over the last 20 years. VR _talk 14:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Alright, this seems to follow NPOV as well. I also find its better written. Although I do find it a bit long. Following VR's comment on Arab Islamism, perhaps it ought to be described as Sunni Islamism or just Islamism? Otherwise well termed. Homerethegreat (talk) 08:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. It gives too much weight to elements of the 1988 charter even though scholarship has started to give overwhelming weight to tracking the evolution of Hamas ideology. See the 17 scholalrly sources I provided above. VR _talk 14:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this is exactly my point: Tracking the evolution of Hamas' ideology is important, and this is why the proposed version clearly states this evolution from the original charter to the new one. For this we need to talk about the foundational charter and updated charters and how they differ. This is crucial for understanding of Hamas. Marokwitz (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

• Regarding the hadith some insist on mentioning, scholars believe it is misunderstood and taken out of context. Professor David Cook writes this hadith "stands virtually alone" in classical Islamic sources and the "vast majority of classical Muslim apocalyptic literature is concerned with the power enemies facing Islam during the seventh to ninth centuries, namely the Byzantines and Turks. It was not concerned with Israel or the United States, neither of which existed yet and both of which were well beyond the range of imagination that produced the classical literature." Hussein Solomon and Arno Tausch (both professors at University of the Free State) point that even Salafis agree that this hadith is contradicted by "Whoever kills a non-Muslim living under Muslim ruler will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." The analysis of this hadith is beyond the scope of the lead of this article. I can provide more sources too that show this hadith doesn't mean what you think it means.VR _talk 15:28, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

  I think the relevant consideration would be what the writers of original charter thought it meant. But I do agree that it's too complicated to properly explain in a single sentence and should therefore be left for a different part of the article. --Orgullomoore (talk) 22:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Current version

But the lead already says

While initially seeking a state in all of Mandatory Palestine, Hamas began accepting the 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007. In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a transitional Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel. Hamas's repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many as being consistent with a two-state solution, while others state that Hamas retains the long-term objective of establishing one state in former Mandatory Palestine. While the 1988 charter of Hamas was widely described as antisemitic, Hamas's 2017 charter removed the antisemitic language and said Hamas's struggle was with Zionists not Jews.

It covers both the issue of the 1967 borders and antisemitism. It is also more concise than the proposal above, while covering more ground (such as the 2005, 2006 and 2007 agreements).VR _talk 03:50, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I think this version toned down the original treaty and aspirations upon which Hamas was founded, and according to many scholars maintains to this day. Therefore, I think the above proposed versions better reflect the situation. Dovidroth (talk) 09:09, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Again, I provided 17 scholarly sources showing that the overwhelming amount of scholars believe Hamas ideology has evolved and is no longer the same as it was back in 1988. VR _talk 14:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

+1, sourcing settles this. Selfstudier (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I strongly object to this version - As I have shown above, in my survey of reliable sources I found they mention the old and new charter with roughly equal weight (or provide more weight to the original foundational charter of 1988), and placing much stronger emphasis on the 2017 charter is an issue with recentism as well as not inline with our due weight policy. Marokwitz (talk) 21:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I see your analysis of Bartal, are you referring to it, or is there another survey somewhere else? Alaexis_¿question? 21:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The vast majority of sources I found are older than 2017, so they give weight only to the original covenant. The newer sources that I found, including a book by Dr. Niall Christie covering the Hamas covenant (cited above), as well as Bartal, both seem to talk about the old charter, the new charter, and how they differ. Marokwitz (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

The older sources should be given less weight here per WP:AGEMATTERS. Pretending like older sources that predate later developments retain their authority is silly. We arent writing an article in 2015. nableezy - 23:02, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Cite error: The named reference bartal was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. David Cook (2008). Contemporary Muslim Apocalyptic Literature. Syracuse University Press. p. 25-26.
3. Hussein Solomon and Arno Tausch (2019). Islamism, Crisis and Democratization Implications of the World Values Survey for the Muslim World. Springer International Publishing. p. 171-172. {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help); External link in |author= (help); line feed character in |title= at position 37 (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
4. Seurat 2019, pp. 17–19
5. "What does Israel's declaration of war mean for Palestinians in Gaza?". Al Jazeera.
6. "What will the Israeli-Palestinian conflict look like in 30 years?". Even Hamas in 2017 said it was ready to accept a Palestinian state with 1967 borders if it is clear this is the consensus of the Palestinians.
7. "Hamas accepts Palestinian state with 1967 borders: Khaled Meshaal presents a new document in which Hamas accepts 1967 borders without recognising state of Israel Gaza". Al Jazeera. 2 May 2017.
8. Al-Mughrabi, Nidal; Finn, Tom (1 May 2017). "Hamas softens stance on Israel, drops Muslim Brotherhood link". Reuters. Retrieved 16 November 2023.
9. Cite error: The named reference atran was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. Halim Rane (2009). Reconstructing Jihad Amid Competing International Norms. p. 34. Asher Susser, director of the Dayan Centre at Tel Aviv University, conveyed to me in an interview that "Hamas' 'hudna' is not significantly different from Sharon's 'long-term interim agreement." Similarly, Daniel Levy, a senior Israeli official for the Geneva Initiative (GI), informed me that certain Hamas officials find the GI acceptable, but due to the concerns about their Islamically oriented constituency and their own Islamic identity, they would "have to express the final result in terms of a "hudna," or "indefinite" ceasefire," rather than a formal peace agreement."
11. Baconi 2018, p. 108Hamas’s finance minister in Gaza stated that “a long-term ceasefire as understood by Hamas and a two-state settlement are the same. It’s just a question of vocabulary.” sfn error: no target: CITEREFBaconi2018 (help)
12. Loren D. Lybarger (2020). Palestinian Chicago. University of California Press. p. 199. Hamas too would signal a willingness to accept a long-term "hudna" (cessation of hostilities, truce) along the armistice lines of 1948 (an effective acceptance of the two-state formula).
13. Tristan Dunning (2016). Hamas, Jihad and Popular Legitimacy. Routledge. pp. 179–180.
14. Alsoos, Imad (2021). "From jihad to resistance: the evolution of Hamas's discourse in the framework of mobilization". Middle Eastern Studies. 57 (5): 833–856. doi:10.1080/00263206.2021.1897006. S2CID 234860010.
15. Faeq, Nasir; Jahnata, Diego (2020). "The Historical Antecedents of Hamas". International Journal of Social Science Research and Review. 3 (3): 33. doi:10.47814/ijssrr.v3i3.49. S2CID 234607095.
16. May, Tiffany (October 8, 2023). "A Quick Look at Hamas". The New York Times. Archived from the original on October 14, 2023. Retrieved October 9, 2023.
17. Staff, The (October 9, 2023). "Two-state solution: Israeli-Palestinian history". Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved October 9, 2023.
18. "Have war crimes been committed in Israel and Gaza and what laws govern the conflict?". CNN. 2023-11-16. Retrieved 2023-11-18.
19. Seurat, Leila (2019). The Foreign Policy of Hamas. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 17. ISBN 9781838607449.
20. Qossay Hamed (2023). Hamas in Power: The Question of Transformation. IGI Global. p. 161.
21. Timea Spitka (2023). National and International Civilian Protection Strategies in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Springer International Publishing. p. 88-89.
22. "Khaled Meshaal: Struggle is against Israel, not Jews". Al-Jazeera. 6 May 2017. Retrieved 19 November 2023.

Should "Anti-communist" be listed as a Hamas ideology?

The charter explicitly blames Jews for the "communist revolution" which would imply opposition to communism. I believe the reason "anti-communism" has been removed from the "ideologies" section is because of communists that support Hamas. I could not think of any other way to phrase that, I am sorry if what I said sounds conspiratorial NesserWiki (talk) 21:49, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• is because of some communist support* is what I meant to say.

NesserWiki (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Do you have secondary sources supporting this assertion? Basing it solely on the charter would be considered WP:OR. I am not sure this is a primary focus of Hamas ideology. Marokwitz (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I did a quick search in my Hamas-related PDFs, and it seems to me that any anti-communist tinge they have can be subsumed into either their anti-Zionism or their Islamism. They consider communism a form of atheism (and, as Islamists, they are obviously anti-atheists), and their 1988 charter, according to Filiu in Gaza: A History: "is steeped in conspiratorial language according to which international Zionism’s historic links with freemasonry enabled it to manipulate ‘the French revolution, the communist revolution and most other revolutionary upheavals’." (p. 204). And they rhetorically attack political opponents for being communists. So, I don't know... it doesn't seem to me like a defining ideology. They certainly are not pro-communist, but they also are not spending a whole lot of energy on opposing communism. --Orgullomoore (talk) 07:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Mainstream political groups everywhere are rarely pro-communist. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:51, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

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