Talk:Steven Hassan: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 21:13, 30 November 2023 editJacquesparker0 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users1,274 edits →Deprogramming and exit counseling section: ReplyTag: Reply ← Previous edit		Revision as of 22:27, 30 November 2023 edit undoGrorp (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users12,671 edits →POV issues: WP:REFACTOR and respondNext edit →
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	::''Agents of Discord'' certainly makes a larger argument about the American anti-cult movement, but a number of sections in the book focus specifically on Hassan, partly because he is someone for whom the authors seem to have a qualified respect. In the cited section, however, they are drawing attention to the fact that certain of his claims are explicitly contradicted by affidavits from victims and indeed by his own account of one of his deprogrammings. One of the affidavits is quoted at length, as is Hassan's account of the same events. The book is to a significant extent a documented critique of the practice of deprogramming, and as such it could be described, like Hassan himself, as "anti-deprogramming". But a critical perspective on practices like abduction and detention, backed up with documents, analysis and reasoned arguments from academic sources, should not be dismissed as "anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric". For one thing, the NRMs are not discussed, pro or contra, in any way in the book. The pages cited in this section (pp 149-152) are specifically about Steven Hassan, indeed the subtitle of the discussion is "Steven A. Hassan". ] (]) 21:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)		::''Agents of Discord'' certainly makes a larger argument about the American anti-cult movement, but a number of sections in the book focus specifically on Hassan, partly because he is someone for whom the authors seem to have a qualified respect. In the cited section, however, they are drawing attention to the fact that certain of his claims are explicitly contradicted by affidavits from victims and indeed by his own account of one of his deprogrammings. One of the affidavits is quoted at length, as is Hassan's account of the same events. The book is to a significant extent a documented critique of the practice of deprogramming, and as such it could be described, like Hassan himself, as "anti-deprogramming". But a critical perspective on practices like abduction and detention, backed up with documents, analysis and reasoned arguments from academic sources, should not be dismissed as "anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric". For one thing, the NRMs are not discussed, pro or contra, in any way in the book. The pages cited in this section (pp 149-152) are specifically about Steven Hassan, indeed the subtitle of the discussion is "Steven A. Hassan". ] (]) 21:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
	:::These are all fair points. I suppose I should have read more carefully what the article actually says, my bad. And I agree with your assessment of ''Agents of Discord''. Certainly there is anti-deprogramming rhetoric and bias in the book, but that doesn't mean that everything in the book is wrong, invalid, and so on. Biased sources don't make the WP article biased necessarily. --] (]) 21:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)		:::These are all fair points. I suppose I should have read more carefully what the article actually says, my bad. And I agree with your assessment of ''Agents of Discord''. Certainly there is anti-deprogramming rhetoric and bias in the book, but that doesn't mean that everything in the book is wrong, invalid, and so on. Biased sources don't make the WP article biased necessarily. --] (]) 21:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

	===Criticism section===
⚫	I am Grorp, re your second point below ("I cannot obtain page 401 of Shupe (google books won't cough it up). Harold the Sheep: Do you have an image/scan/photo of page 401?"), I assume you are referring to ''Violence and New Religious Movements''. Here is the passage from p. 401:<blockquote>For another example, see the writings of Steven Hassan (1988, 1994), an ex-Unificationist who underwent coercive deprogramming and later became a bona fide degreed counselor and who describes himself as once a proponent and practitioner of the coercive type. Later Hassan publically repudiated the coercive variety and turned to a "gentler" form, which he calls "strategic intervention therapy," though he still maintains that the targeted groups are inherently "destructive." With Hassan's nonviolent intervention technique, however, one wonders how many members of NRMs would willingly enter into such "discussions" with the foreknowledge that the "counselor's" entire purpose is not to ascertain their religious sincerity or their full understanding of the extent of their spiritual decisions but rather is to convince them to abandon their faith. (Recall that the "counselor's" client is not the NRM member but rather someone else who hired the "counselor.")</blockquote> ] (]) 20:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

	=== Some notes ===		=== Some notes ===
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	I could probably dig (and say) more, but that's all the time I allocated to this project today. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 06:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)		I could probably dig (and say) more, but that's all the time I allocated to this project today. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 06:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
	:Please don't use the talk page as a dumping ground for your "in no particular order" notes and opinions. Let's keep it in order and address issues one by one. ] (]) 20:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)		:Please don't use the talk page as a dumping ground for your "in no particular order" notes and opinions. Let's keep it in order and address issues one by one. ] (]) 20:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

		⚫	:: <s>I am</s> Grorp, re your second point <s>below</s> above ("I cannot obtain page 401 of Shupe (google books won't cough it up). Harold the Sheep: Do you have an image/scan/photo of page 401?"), I assume you are referring to ''Violence and New Religious Movements''. Here is the passage from p. 401:<blockquote>For another example, see the writings of Steven Hassan (1988, 1994), an ex-Unificationist who underwent coercive deprogramming and later became a bona fide degreed counselor and who describes himself as once a proponent and practitioner of the coercive type. Later Hassan publically repudiated the coercive variety and turned to a "gentler" form, which he calls "strategic intervention therapy," though he still maintains that the targeted groups are inherently "destructive." With Hassan's nonviolent intervention technique, however, one wonders how many members of NRMs would willingly enter into such "discussions" with the foreknowledge that the "counselor's" entire purpose is not to ascertain their religious sincerity or their full understanding of the extent of their spiritual decisions but rather is to convince them to abandon their faith. (Recall that the "counselor's" client is not the NRM member but rather someone else who hired the "counselor.")</blockquote> ] (]) 20:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

			::: {{reply\|Harold the Sheep}} {{tq\|Dumping ground}}? I started this thread and you responded {{tq\|This is nonsense}}, so I went through and gave you some examples. And you say you want order but put your response ''above'' mine, contrary to best practices in ]. Insulting other editors will get you nowhere fast. Try again. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 22:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

	== COI ==		== COI ==

Revision as of 22:27, 30 November 2023

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Rick Alan Ross (talk · contribs) This user has not edited the article. (see also http://www.cultnews.com/2013/04/steve-hassan-supporters-want-information-control/)
Mdl1946 (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Steven_Hassan&type=revision&diff=963064234&oldid=963050350)
Sh fom (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Steven_Hassan&diff=prev&oldid=977278335)

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His positions on trans people

Can we add something about this? https://twitter.com/CultExpert/status/1279890726885695488 Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 02:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Twitter is not a reliable source, nor is that blog website you tried to add. Since you're not a new editor here, I'm not sure why you've ignored the usual WP:RS and WP:OR. Perhaps WP:PODIUM is at play? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I have not been able to find digitally any reliable secondary sources reporting on his position on trans people, so at the moment it might be too soon to put here. --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 17:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

POV issues

Many recent edits to this article have added generalized anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric that is not specific to this BLP subject. The purpose seems to frame the voice in this article by attributing another subject (e.g., anti-deprogramming) to this person. The particular over-reaching sections are "Deprogramming and exit counseling" and "Criticism". See WP:PODIUM. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

This is nonsense. All of the recently added material is derived from academic sources that are specifically referring to the article subject. I'll provide full quotes if you insist. Harold the Sheep (talk) 04:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I would like that so I can verify. You can send them to me by email, if you prefer. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Deprogramming and exit counseling section

If this is specifically about the 2006 book by Anson Shupe and Susan Darnell (Agents of Discord), then I'll point out that that book makes a larger argument about the American anti-cult movement, of which Steven Hassan was/is a part (whether he agrees with the term or not). I don't have the book on hand so I am not able to verify the exact page numbers, but the book does address him at points.

That being said, the subsection for Deprogramming and exit counseling does have a bit of primary sourcing, which may constitute original research (WP:NOR). --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 17:42, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The only primary sources in the Deprogramming and exit counseling section are Hassan's statement from his website and his book. The first refers to his own clearly stated anti-deprogramming views ("Never did I ever abduct, restrain, hit or threaten anybody. I did not and do not like the deprogramming method and stopped doing them in 1977! I have spoken out publicly against forcible deprogrammings since 1980. Read my two books...") and the second is a quote from the book in which he seems to put a caveat on that in certain circumstances. How is it original research to use Hassan's own published words to communicate his views on the subject?

Agents of Discord certainly makes a larger argument about the American anti-cult movement, but a number of sections in the book focus specifically on Hassan, partly because he is someone for whom the authors seem to have a qualified respect. In the cited section, however, they are drawing attention to the fact that certain of his claims are explicitly contradicted by affidavits from victims and indeed by his own account of one of his deprogrammings. One of the affidavits is quoted at length, as is Hassan's account of the same events. The book is to a significant extent a documented critique of the practice of deprogramming, and as such it could be described, like Hassan himself, as "anti-deprogramming". But a critical perspective on practices like abduction and detention, backed up with documents, analysis and reasoned arguments from academic sources, should not be dismissed as "anti-deprogramming and pro-NRM rhetoric". For one thing, the NRMs are not discussed, pro or contra, in any way in the book. The pages cited in this section (pp 149-152) are specifically about Steven Hassan, indeed the subtitle of the discussion is "Steven A. Hassan". Harold the Sheep (talk) 21:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

These are all fair points. I suppose I should have read more carefully what the article actually says, my bad. And I agree with your assessment of Agents of Discord. Certainly there is anti-deprogramming rhetoric and bias in the book, but that doesn't mean that everything in the book is wrong, invalid, and so on. Biased sources don't make the WP article biased necessarily. --Jacquesparker0 (talk) 21:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Some notes

(in no particular order)

I found a PDF of Introduction to New and Alternative Religions in America which includes the Gallagher and Bromley chapters. Don't know if it's okay to link to it in the article's citations or not. But here's the link (https://bahai-library.com/pdf/g/gallagher_ashcraft_new_religions.pdf) if anyone wants to verify content which cites this source. No page numbers available.
I cannot obtain page 401 of Shupe (google books won't cough it up). Harold the Sheep: Do you have an image/scan/photo of page 401?
I oppose the inclusion of so much Shupe information because Shupe is rabid pro-NRM and anti-ACM (anti-cult movement) that he can't think straight anymore. Shupe scoffs at the terms/ideas of "cults" and "brainwashing". As someone who has seen the effects of brainwashing by high-control groups (that Shupe has defended), and has read some of Shupe's apologism about such groups, I think Shupe is extremist. Shupe also hates Hassan and denigrates him personally, not just his techniques ("Shupe often calls Hassan a “professional ex-Moonie,” questioning the livelihood he has built around his past. “Way down deep, it’s like he’s been wrestling with a demon about his own involvement in the Moonies”. ) Remote diagnosing. And taking every opportunity to criticize.
The article quotes much by Bromley about why Hassan's approach is bad, but omits lines from the same source such as "The academics turned to Hassan because they consider him to be perhaps the best in his business—and yet they remain critical of his approach." Such a line would help present better POV balance in the article.
Harold the Sheep's "Criticism" section presents the viewpoints of 5 authors, however he emphasizes the authors' opinions of the field (of deprogramming and/or exit counseling); whereas those sources present just a mention of Hassan, much in the way of an example, perhaps because Hassan is one of the more visible/outspoken/published individuals in those fields.
The date of Cult Mind Control (1988) was omitted, yet following right on the heels of Langone's "Hassan's preferred approach", which is present tense, leaves the reader to think that it is Hassan's current viewpoint. Placement of these two matters side-by-side is SYNTH (also framing). I thought I read previously that those that continued in the field after the fall of CAN (Ross and Hassan?), either modified their methods with the dawn of the anti-anti-cult-movement, or were not one of the hardcore deprogrammers. Not sure which. But CAN has been gone now 27 years and yet this article's criticism speaks like these things are happening currently. One needs to put them in the context of their time (e.g. state the date).

I could probably dig (and say) more, but that's all the time I allocated to this project today. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Please don't use the talk page as a dumping ground for your "in no particular order" notes and opinions. Let's keep it in order and address issues one by one. Harold the Sheep (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

~~I am~~ Grorp, re your second point ~~below~~ above ("I cannot obtain page 401 of Shupe (google books won't cough it up). Harold the Sheep: Do you have an image/scan/photo of page 401?"), I assume you are referring to Violence and New Religious Movements. Here is the passage from p. 401:

For another example, see the writings of Steven Hassan (1988, 1994), an ex-Unificationist who underwent coercive deprogramming and later became a bona fide degreed counselor and who describes himself as once a proponent and practitioner of the coercive type. Later Hassan publically repudiated the coercive variety and turned to a "gentler" form, which he calls "strategic intervention therapy," though he still maintains that the targeted groups are inherently "destructive." With Hassan's nonviolent intervention technique, however, one wonders how many members of NRMs would willingly enter into such "discussions" with the foreknowledge that the "counselor's" entire purpose is not to ascertain their religious sincerity or their full understanding of the extent of their spiritual decisions but rather is to convince them to abandon their faith. (Recall that the "counselor's" client is not the NRM member but rather someone else who hired the "counselor.")

Harold the Sheep (talk) 20:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

@Harold the Sheep: Dumping ground? I started this thread and you responded This is nonsense, so I went through and gave you some examples. And you say you want order but put your response above mine, contrary to best practices in WP:Talk page guidelines. Insulting other editors will get you nowhere fast. Try again. ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 22:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

COI

@Harold the Sheep: Since you're the one who tagged the article as COI back in September, please make some sort of note here on the talk page to elaborate (who, how much, which content, etc.). ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

The user was Sh fom, who is mentioned at the top of the talk page. I'm guessing that the letters stand for Steven Hassan Freedom of Mind. Judging by their talk page and contributions this user both is and isn't Steven Hassan himself. I've removed the COI tag. Harold the Sheep (talk) 06:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, ok. I notice the mdl one on the COI list, too. Langone explains that a paragraph was not accurate and tried to remove it, yet that content is still in the article. Can you look at that, please? ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

That content is not still in the article, please get your facts straight before asking me to do your work for you, it's getting to be a habit. The edit you are talking about was made by someone claiming to be Langone back in 2020 and reverted 5 minutes later by an editor who pointed out that we don't know who they are but that if they are who they say then there is a COI. That content appears to have stayed in the article until I removed it a few weeks ago and replaced it with a more detailed and accurate summary of the source. Harold the Sheep (talk) 20:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

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