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Revision as of 21:00, 18 December 2023 editTgeorgescu (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users55,114 edits →A lot of incorrect info added: lacking WP:CIR← Previous edit Revision as of 02:01, 19 December 2023 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,305,781 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to Talk:Greater Romania/Archive 1) (botNext edit →
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This idea said, that every land is a Romanian territory, whereever the great rivers (Tisza with the river Bodrog and Dnister) of the Romanian Carpathian Mountains (Eastern and Southern Carpathians) spread out their alluvial deposit. So Greater Romania is the territory between the River Tisza and River Dnister. It consist of the Carpathian Ruthenia and North-Bukovina (nowdays in Ukraine and East-Slovakia - Presov and its vicinity), the Hungarian territory east of the river Tisza, Republic of Moldova (without Transnistria), Lower-Moldavia (nowdays in Ukraine) South-Dobruja (nowdays in Bulgaria), and West-Banat (nowdays in Serbia: East part of the former Province - Vojvodina) and - naturally - Romania. This idea said, that every land is a Romanian territory, whereever the great rivers (Tisza with the river Bodrog and Dnister) of the Romanian Carpathian Mountains (Eastern and Southern Carpathians) spread out their alluvial deposit. So Greater Romania is the territory between the River Tisza and River Dnister. It consist of the Carpathian Ruthenia and North-Bukovina (nowdays in Ukraine and East-Slovakia - Presov and its vicinity), the Hungarian territory east of the river Tisza, Republic of Moldova (without Transnistria), Lower-Moldavia (nowdays in Ukraine) South-Dobruja (nowdays in Bulgaria), and West-Banat (nowdays in Serbia: East part of the former Province - Vojvodina) and - naturally - Romania.

== A lot of incorrect info added ==
A lot of incorrect info added by: https://en.wikipedia.org/User:TheLastOfTheGiants
''"The biggest source of uncertainity was represented by the fact that the Romanian army did not occupy all of Transylvania and the Hungarian-Romanian border was yet to be determined. The Romanian and Hungarian armies in Transylvania would often exchange fire and the Romanian army was often requested to intervene in order to defend the Romanian population from areas under the Hungarian army. Hungary hoped to keep Greater Hungary, they hoped that all the regions of old Hungary would remain part of Hungary but were not taking into account what the nationalities who lived inside Greater Hungary wanted. In Transylvania, where 54% of the population was Romanian, trying to maintain this region as part of Hungary was an utopia, for the president of the United States, Woodrow Wilson, came with his 14 points about the right of nationalities for self-determination, and the Romanians in Transylvania who were a majority, didn't want to be part of Hungary. Essentially, the Hungarian politicians hoped to keep the status quo but the historical reality, the debates during the peace conference and the arguments of the nationalities who wished to break free from Hungary, were the ones that mattered and eventually weighted decisively in favor of creating the eventual borders of Trianon."''

It is incorrect to say the Romanians occupied Hungary, because Romanian army needed to protect Romanians in Hungary from the Hungarian army. Or do you know when Hungarian army harmed Romanians in the territory of Hungary? Source? Morover from the disarmed Hungarian army???
] (]) 20:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)Ip.

Romania’s entry into World War 1, 27 August 1916. Detail from Proclamation of King Ferdinand of Romania:
''“In our moral energy and our valour lie the means of giving him back his birthright of a great and free Romania from the Tisza to the Black Sea, and to prosper in peace in accordance with our customs and our hopes and dreams.”''
https://royalromania.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/romanias-entry-into-the-great-war-27-august-1916-king-ferdinands-proclamation/

Romania joined to Entente and attacked Hungary in 1916 to occupy all Hungarian land until the Tisza river, the Entente promised this land to Romania to ask his help against the Central Powers. During World War 1 Romania attacked Hungary in 1916, but Hungarian and Central Power troops were in Bucharest fast within 3 months, so Romania lost World War, later Romania signed the peace treaty with the Central Powers. On 11th November 1918, World War I ended and Austria-Hungary lost the war, even if at the time of the collapse, all forces (1,4 million Hungarian troops) were standing outside the borders of 1914, so the Entente did not occupy/conquer any Austrian-Hungarian land during the World War I, but soon after the end of the war the Hungarian army was disarmed and the Hungarian soldiers went home. When the war ended Romania attacked again this time disarmed Hungary, on 7th December 1918, Brassó a city in Southeastern Transylvania was occupied by the Romanian Army.

Why? To protect Romanians from the disarmed Hungarian army? This has not much logic.

But inverse it was many atrocities. The attacker Romanians massacred many Hungarian civilians during the war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_massacres_in_Romania
Gyergyószárhegy (Lăzarea) massacre by the Romanians, 22 September 1916: 8 Hungarian civilians
The leadership of the village was shot in a mass grave without trial, further 57 civilians only escaped because a high-ranking officer arrived and stopped the massacre.
Köröstárkány and Kisnyégerfalva (Tărcaia and Grădinari) massacres by the Romanians, 19 Apr 1919: 108 ethnic Hungarian civilians
On April 19th, 1919, Romanian irregular troops and regular units of the Romanian Royal Army entered the village and murdered numerous local civilians. At that time, the population of Köröstárkány was about 99% ethnic Hungarian; not even the census that would be conducted by the Romanian Ministry of the Interior in 1920 questioned the legitimacy of the number. If one acknowledges that the majority of the people who committed the murders came from the Romanian peasantry of the surrounding villages, then one must also assume that the devastation wrought in Köröstárkány was not a spontaneous military retaliation, but a more or less pre-planned ethnic cleansing, the catalyst of which may have been to break the ethnic and economic hegemony of the much more numerous Hungarian population of the Belényesi Basin.

After WW1 it was chaos and coups in Hungary, the new Karolyi government demilitarized the country. But the Romanians, Czechs, and Serbs always violated the demarcation lines, which were in the territory of Hungary and not outside of Hungary! And this impotent and pacific government resigned, then the communist took power in 21th of March. So the Romanians already occupied big Hungarian regions before the communist took power. The Romanian invasion violated already 4 month long many times the demarcation lines and the occupying Romanian army pushed deep into Hungarian land without much resistance, much earlier than the communist took the power or much earlier than they made defensive operations. Actually, the Romanian, and Czech… aggression also emerged the communists in power, because a lot of non-communist ex-soldiers joined red army because the communist promised to protect the country. The Hungarian red army with Monarchy general (Aurel Stromfeld) liberated north Hungary from the Czech aggressors, but the communist wanted to make a Slovak communist state, so the Hungarian people in the army were disappointed. The red army also made operations against the Romanian army which was deep in Hungary, and not against Romania! I assume in other countries this army is named as “home defender”, “freedom fighters”, “liberators”, “partizans”… who defend their land against a foreign invasion. Similar to today the Ukrainian protect their country from the Russian invasion. But Entente demanded to stop the fight, and Bela Kun fleed to Russia, then the Romanians marched and plundered the unprotected country.

It was not at all referendum, so the people of Transylvania did not vote. Nobody asked the residents one by one. In Transylvania lived 5 million people in 1920. Only some people from 5 million and many other Romanians from outside of Transylvania voted in not a secret vote to join Romania in wartime and of course, at the presence of the Romanian army behind this one-sided Romanian assembly. Moreover, the Hungarian partner was not invited at all, so hard to talk about any voting. Perhaps the full Hungarian populated cities, especially next to the today Hungarian border voted to join Romania? I do not believe this. Romania claimed the Hungarian territory until the Tisza river. Perhaps the full Hungarian populated Tisza region voted to join Romania? I do not think so. The borders were decided in Paris, not in the Romanian assembly. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:36, 20 June 2022 (UTC)</span> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

: Yes, the source did say that the Romanian army needed to protect Romanians in Hungary from the Hungarian army. This is correct. The source is: Florin Critescu, Dorin Stanescu, Oral History Archive, The Treaty of Trianon, 2021
: How is the Proclamation of King Ferdinand of Romania relevant?
: The Hungarian army was not disarmed as soon as World War 1 ended.
: Yes, the Romanians and Czechs violated the demarcation lines, but the material you are trying to remove does not say that "Romanians and Czechs didn't violate the demarcation lines" so again, how is this relevant?
: I'm not saying I agree or disagree, my question about everything you wrote is, how is this relevant to the meterial you want to remove? Only the mention of the Hungarian army being disarmed is relevant, which wasn't disarmed as soon as the war ended. ] (]) 18:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::]
::"Károlyi yielded to ] ]'s demand for ] by ordering the disarmament of the Hungarian Army, which happened under the direction of War Minister ] on 2 November 1918"
::When Romania attacked Hungary in December in 1918, the Hungarian army was disarmed, so it is not true that the Romanian army needed to protect Romanians from the (non exist) "Hungarian army". 2,8 million Romanians lived in Hungary, the Hungarian army never harmed them before and during these days. So it is incorrect statement.
::King Ferdinand proclaimed Romanians should occupy Hungary until the Tisza, so Romanians attacked Hungary to occupy that land and not to protect Romanians from the Hungarian army.
::"Yes, the Romanians and Czechs violated the demarcation lines"
::and not because to protect Romanians from the (non exist) "Hungarian army". ] (]) 20:10, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
:::::"13 November, the Romanian Army crossed the eastern border. That day, Károlyi signed an armistice with the Allies in Belgrade that limited the size of the Hungarian Army to six infantry and two cavalry divisions". Meaning it began remobilization.
:::::"On 28 February 1919, at the Paris Peace Conference, the Allies notified Hungary of a new demarcation line to which the Romanian army would advance. The line coincided with railways connecting Satu Mare, Oradea, and Arad. However, the Romanian Army was not to enter those cities. A demilitarised zone was to be created extending from the new demarcation line to 5 kilometres (3.1 mi) beyond the line. The demilitarised zone represented the extent of Romanian territorial requests on Hungary. The retreat of the Hungarian Army behind the western border of the demilitarised zone was to begin on 22 March.
:::On 19 March, Hungary received notification of the new demarcation line and demilitaritarised zone from French Lieutenant Colonel Fernand Vix (the "Vix Note"). The Károlyi government would not accept the terms, which was a trigger for the coup d'état by Béla Kun, who formed the Hungarian Soviet Republic. Meanwhile, limited skirmishes took place between Romanian and Hungarian troops. Some Hungarian elements engaged in the harassing the Romanians outside the area controlled by the Romanian Army."
:::::It says it here too "Some Hungarian elements engaged in the harassing the Romanians outside the area controlled by the Romanian Army". ] (]) 20:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::The Hungarian army was disarmed, other sources:
::::::]
::::::https://books.google.hu/books?id=OKDRvNHdraoC&pg=PA34&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
::::::Romania was promised Hungary until the Tisza, that is why Romania attacked Hungary in 1916, and again in 1918 when after Austria-Hungary signed the armistice on 3 November 1918.
::::::]
::::::Romania occupied Hungary and always pushed forward for the above reason and not because "to protect Romanians" from Hungarian army which did not exist at that time.
::::::"Some Hungarian elements"? What does mean? Where? Who? Which harrasment? Why would they harras local Romanians instead the attacker Romanian army? Where is the logic in that? Source of the convcete events? If some isolated Hungarians tried defend his homeland, it is cleary not the Hungarian army. I assume in other countries these people is named as “home defender”, “freedom fighters”, “liberators”, “partizans”… who defend their land against a foreign invasion.
::::::Your quoted text is incorrect. All article mention "Romanian territorial requests", that is why Romanians pushed westward and not to "protect local Romanians from the Hungarian army". ] (]) 10:22, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
::::::::If you read the comment you just replied to, you will find that I never denied the Hungarian army was disarmed, I argued that it was later rearmed. So your argument with sources that it was disarmed is non-sense because it doesn't contradict my stance.
:::::::: "Romania was promised Hungary (...)" how is this relevant?
:::::::: You questioned the source I offered you, in respose, I offered a 2nd source already existing on Misplaced Pages that says the same thing. I think I have done my job in demonstrating that it happened.
:::::::: "Some Hungarian elements"? What does mean? Where? Who? Which harrasment?", I don't know, explore the subject in more depth if you want to learn more. I offered you 2 sources saying the same thing, it's not my fault that you disagree with the given sources nor my job to be your personal teacher and explain you further.
:::::::: "Your quoted text is incorrect", really? do you want me to send you a picture? enter the link below and read the last 2 paragraphs.
:::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/Hungarian%E2%80%93Romanian_War#November_1918_%E2%80%93_March_1919 ] (]) 13:21, 21 June 2022 (UTC)


== NPOV == == NPOV ==

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Greater Romania (political concept) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 22 May 2014 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Greater Romania. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

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"Romania Intregita"

The article now says, 'The politically correct Romanian term "Romania Intregita" has its closest meaning in English as "Whole Romania".'

  1. Shouldn't this be "România Intregita"?
    România Întregitā indeed.. it's a plague, romanians are using Western European Encoding Keyboard instead of switching to Central European keyboard, i'm plagued by this too -- Criztu 19:41, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  2. A few questions: how common is this usage? I get less than 200 Google hits.
    Romania Mare (greater romania) was hijacked by a political nationalistic party. (Criztu, unsigned)
    • Yes, I added had already added a statement to that effect to the article, but that doesn't answer how common is România Întregită. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)
  3. As a native English speaker, "Whole Romania" is certainly something I would never think to say. What is the basis for saying this is "its closest meaning in English"? I would say "Integral Romania" or "Undivided Romania".

-- Jmabel | Talk 18:38, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

in 1919 Romania was "whole again", not "integral", and now is "incomplete", not "divided" . romanian word "intreg" means 'whole; entire' -- Criztu 19:41, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'd misread, even while copying: I'd thought the root was integrală.
Perhaps "The Entirety of Romania" or "The Whole of Romania"? "Whole Romania" just isn't likely English. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:41, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

The whole Romania is greater than the 1920-1940 border in the original 'Greater Romania' idea

This idea said, that every land is a Romanian territory, whereever the great rivers (Tisza with the river Bodrog and Dnister) of the Romanian Carpathian Mountains (Eastern and Southern Carpathians) spread out their alluvial deposit. So Greater Romania is the territory between the River Tisza and River Dnister. It consist of the Carpathian Ruthenia and North-Bukovina (nowdays in Ukraine and East-Slovakia - Presov and its vicinity), the Hungarian territory east of the river Tisza, Republic of Moldova (without Transnistria), Lower-Moldavia (nowdays in Ukraine) South-Dobruja (nowdays in Bulgaria), and West-Banat (nowdays in Serbia: East part of the former Province - Vojvodina) and - naturally - Romania.

NPOV

@Mars terra:

  • Greater Hungary is irredentism;
  • Greater Bulgaria is irredentism;
  • Greater Greece is irredentism;
  • Greater Russia is irredentism;
  • Greater Romania isn't irredentism.

How do we call that? Special pleading. Or lacking WP:CIR. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:00, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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