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Killing of Shani Louk is currently a Law good article nominee. Nominated by —Alalch E. at 10:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria and will decide whether or not to list it as a good article. Comments are welcome from any editor who has not nominated or contributed significantly to this article. This review will be closed by the first reviewer. To add comments to this review, click discuss review and edit the page. Short description: Killing of German-Israeli tattoo artist

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Endorse, 6 November 2023, see deletion review. Keep, 30 October 2023, see discussion. No consensus, 12 October 2023, see discussion.

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination. Discussions: Moved, 12 October 2023, from Shani Louk to Kidnapping of Shani Louk, see discussion. Moved, 30 October 2023, from Kidnapping of Shani Louk to Killing of Shani Louk, see discussion.

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Murder of Shani Louk

This article have to be named Murder of Shani Louk not Killing of Shani Louk. She was murdered, not killed by accident. דוד שי (talk) 09:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't know how or even if she was killed, so that claim just doesn't stand up. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

"or even if she was killed"

the videos showing her disfigured body in the back of the truck says otherwise. the IDF found skull bone fracture. remember wikipedia is a place of neutrality. facts matter. and the facts here with all the videos posted by Hamas themselves, shows she was murdered. CViB (talk) 11:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

That's WP:OR - you are deducing that she is dead. It is not confirmed. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment Just about every usable source one can imagine agrees that she is dead. The unknown minutiae don't really matter at this point and we can add them if more information is revealed. This page was edited in light of news that she might be alive but reliable sources paint a different picture now and we should change course accordingly. Killuminator (talk) 12:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

There still appears to be a lot of uncertainty, with statements put out and then withdrawn regarding whether a body was found. If a body was indeed found, then most of this page simply needs heavily redacting, because it is apparently about a kidnapping that never happened to Louk, but is instead in reference to some other individual. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Probably not gonna happen soon since her body had been paraded in Gaza Synotia (moan) 13:09, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Move to "Killing of Shani Louk" and revert

Hi, about this - the claim by the IDF here is far from conclusive about events. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:27, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel confirmed her death (not just a statement of the mother) according to a German newspaper ("Das israelische Außenministerium bestätigt den Tod der jungen Frau."). A fragment of her skull was found at the site of the massacre and the source notes that, after all, in the video it was possible to see that she has a gunshot wound to her head (from what I've been reading in the past week, there have been some other reliable sources that have also reported that in the video she is seen with a "head injury", or something to that effect, so this is not the only source that says this). She's among the fatal casualties of the massacre. No comment on "murder" at this time, but I oppose a move from "killing" to "kidnapping" (obviously superseded, there was never truly a confirmation that she has been kidnapped, it was always an inference based on her mother's unverified claim that she is alive), "disappearance" (confirmed dead now, and was initially reported as seen lifeless or even "killed" in the video , before the mother came out with the statement that she is / could be alive, so it just wouldn't work), and I slightly less strongly oppose a move to "death". If there's a desire to move to "death", I think that an RM would be in order. Sincerely —Alalch E. 10:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it's likely, but the Israelis aren't in a position to confirm anything. It was already stated that she had a head injury, and reported that she was in critical condition in a hospital in Gaza. Now we have an Israeli claim that is simply consistent with that head injury story, but no real proof of her death - just another unverified claim. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't care if you personally think it's likely, that's not what we're dealing with here. I disagree with you, but I can't comment further now. I will probably write something later. Cheers. —Alalch E. 12:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

That wasn't my point: my point is this is still in the realm of speculation - there is still a lot of information just whizzing around, with a claim of a body put out and then retracted again. It's not clear. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Just noting that I've moved this talk thread here.—Alalch E. 16:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

well looking at the hamasnik's face, he looks particularly uncomfortable, almost as if there is a corpse threatening to touch his boot. (ewwww) Synotia (moan) 09:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 30 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Killing of Shani Louk. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 08:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

It was proposed in this section that Killing of Shani Louk be renamed and moved to Death of Shani Louk. The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Move logs: source title · target title This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Kidnapping of Shani Louk → Death of Shani Louk – We can not use the title "Kidnapping of Shani Louk" because:

1. The article does not, in wikivoice, claim that Shani Louk was kidnapped
2. The claim that Shani Louk was kidnapped is not verifiable

1. The article does, in wikivoice, claim that Shani Louk is dead
2. Shani Louk being dead is verifiable

I support Killing as an alternative title. Killuminator (talk) 00:09, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I support the title "Killing of Shani Louk". I think it's an appropriate and accurate option. Salvabl (talk) 00:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to Killing of Shani Louk based on the LA Times source provided by nom. Based on that report, this was no accidental death. She was killed, either gratuitously or as a consequence of self-defense. Havradim leaf a message 00:33, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sure killing. Death is a natural process 2A0D:6FC7:25C:F075:BCC4:98C5:34AD:D0AC (talk) 05:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Wait: Shall this requested move be put on hold, as an articles for deletion process is ongoing? We could resume after the AFD finishes. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 00:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support moving to Killing of Shani Louk, but if there's consensus for Death of Shani Louk I'm not against it. Skyshifter 02:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support Killing of Shani Louk. RodRabelo7 (talk) 03:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support for Killing of Shani Louk per WP:DEATHS. Personally I believe it to be murder, but with no conviction or even actual suspect of the killing, I believe "killing" to be enough for now. AdrianHObradors (talk) 12:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support Killing of Shani Louk. She clearly did not die of natural causes! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

  See my comment and cites of Newsweek and TMZ articles. 2601:47:4B82:DE70:C42:43B0:4B5D:86EA (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• Wait (edit: changed to Support Killing of Shani Louk) The circumstances behind her death are far from clear. The Guardian says "On Monday, however, Louk’s sister Adi confirmed that Shani had died, probably during the attack." The use of the word "probably" suggests RS are not yet certain. Once things become clear I would support the Killing title too.VR _talk 17:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

  You could support "Death of" over "Kidnapping of" in the meantime because that is certain, and sources no longer say she was kidnapped, and did not really report that as fact prior to the confirmation of death but as a supposition. Please notice how the article never says in wikivoice that she was kidnapped. Yet the name is "Kidnapping of"; there's a disconnect. —Alalch E. 19:28, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed that "Death of" is appropriate now, "Killing of" should become appropriate when RS determine it was homicide, and "Murder of" will become appropriate when there is a conviction. VR _talk 19:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Vice regent, I think the "probably" there refers to when she exactly died. If she died during the attack, or after they took her and died from the injuries of the attack, does not apply to the current discussion in my opinion. — AdrianHObradors (talk) 08:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

  That's a reasonable explanation and having looked at several other sources I think Killing should be the title. VR _talk 13:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support for changing name to either death or killing. Mason (talk) 01:18, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support (death option): We know neither cause of death, nor perpetrator and/or agent. It could have been friendly fire, shrapnel, etc. Killing implies a clear set of circumstances, and that is far from the case here. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Still a killing, even in the (let's be honest, highly unlikely given the circumstances of the day) event that it was accidental. If people fire off weapons and they hit someone then they have been killed by any definition, even if they were not the actual intended target! -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:58, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

    Maybe highly unlikely, but that's still the realm of speculation. Most sources about her death talk about confirming her "death", not confirming her killing. Why go beyond the sources when not required? Iskandar323 (talk) 07:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Killing of Shani Louk.Per Necrothesp.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
• Support Death of Shani Louk. It's verified that she's dead, but due to the (currently unclear) nature of her death, I support a change to "Death of" per WP:DEATHS. I know that in cases of deaths under police custody (even in cases where it's heavily suspected the police caused it), consensus usually trends towards "death of" unless there's unambiguous evidence of homicide. XTheBedrockX (talk) 01:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, so per WP:DEATHS - unknown manner of death → "Death of ..." Iskandar323 (talk) 07:18, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly why I support "Killing". In case of ambiguity maybe we should side with the victim and not consider giving the (fairly obvious) aggressor the benefit of the doubt. VR _talk 02:09, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support retitling to "Killing of Shani Louk" per WP:DEATHS. It doesn't matter if it was friendly fire, enemy fire, cross-fire, intentional or accidental, it's all homicide. It's really felony murder, which is what it is anytime a kidnapping victim dies during the kidnapping -- but WP:DEATHS has an intentionally strict threshold for "murder," which I don't think is met here per RS, but homicide, definitely, regardless of who is to blame for it. Levivich (talk) 03:14, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2023

This edit request to Kidnapping of Shani Louk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

You've made it almost impossible to comment for anyone with a NPOV. Personally I found a lot of the KEEP arguments emotive. I favour the opening WP:BLP1E argument. It should be merged into the music festival article. Shani's is a truly distressing story, but I don't find her anything in her biography that elevates it above the thousands of tragedies on that day. Galerita (talk) 01:40, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. This template is meant for requesting edits to an article. You can participate in any of the ongoing discussions without using this template, recommend you add your comments to whichever section you see fit Cannolis (talk) 01:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Disparagement of Shani Louk and WP:BLPIMAGE

There is an image described as Louk, apparently unconscious in the back of a pick up truck with several armed people, apparently copied from Twitter, that was added to the article, and restored over a WP:BLPIMAGE objection. This section of BLP policy says it is particularly important in "situations where the subject did not expect to be photographed", which seems to apply here. I also do not think there are any sources that describe this image as anything other than disparaging to Louk; BLP policy also applies to recently-deceased people, so the recent confirmation of her death does not seem to be a sufficient reason to include the image in the article. Beccaynr (talk) 21:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I've started an FFD: Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion#File:Shani Louk in Gaza City.jpg.—Alalch E. 21:36, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I am sure that many of the victims of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse would feel the same way about the photos we have there, but they are there because of encyclopedic purpose. We have an image of a man jumping to his death on 9/11 from a skyscraper at September_11_attacks#Casualties for similar reasons, as do we have images of murdered civilians in the lead of Bucha massacre, as well as in several sections therein. All of these are there because our use of images is not based on a one-dimensional criteria on the question of whether or not the depicted person want this photograph taken. Rather, we have to balance this as one of several factors, chief among them being educational value that images provide to our readers.

Major news networks, such as The Times, have posted pictures of victims as they were being kidnapped. There's reason for this—these sorts of images are notable and help the reader to understand the situation better than text alone is capable of. Misplaced Pages is not censored, and we have an obligation to our readers to provide images of educational value in helping to understand what happened here. For us to decide against including images of the very thing that this article is about makes little sense. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 06:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED includes, Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Misplaced Pages's policies (especially those on biographies of living persons and using a neutral point of view), so when we have image that appears to have been created primarily to attack or disparage the subject, a discussion at minimum seems warranted as to whether this image complies with our BLP policy need to be conservative, avoid sensationalism, to consider the possibility of harm to living subjects, etc. There appears to be nothing in BLP policy that suggests removal is a one-dimensional consideration of whether the person wanted the image created or how they feel about it, and it appears our considerations are much more encyclopedic and multi-faceted.Also, comparisons to what news sources have done in other cases does not seem particularly applicable here - not only are we not a newspaper, but this article discusses this imagery on social media and various responses, including from the European Commission, which seems to be an additional reason for caution when considering whether inclusion is appropriate here. Beccaynr (talk) 02:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Just noting that the file was WP:F5-deleted. —Alalch E. 13:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Videos of her abduction from Reim are absent

Totally missing from this article is any reference to the originally abduction of Shani from the Re'im festival, and to the (widely circulated and hence widely available) video-recording of that abduction, which shows her being forced onto the back of a motorcycle and then driven (with abductors holding her) back to Gaza. 2601:47:4B82:DE70:24A5:4D5:601C:3001 (talk) 04:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

That's not the same person. See https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-supernova-festival-noa-argamani-hostage-hamas-attacks-video/ —Alalch E. 07:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Noa Argamani was also taken hostage (I think also fr Reim). From your link, I see she was also taken on motorcycle. (This video does look familiar, and possibly it was Noa A). We should research archives, whatever we can, to find out if Shani was taken in similar way (and filmed).

But Shani Louk is a different person, and her being abducted deserves mention. 2601:47:4B82:DE70:C42:43B0:4B5D:86EA (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I could tell you to provide a reliable source about Shani Louk being taken on a motorcycle, but I know for a fact that there isn't any because that is not what happened. You are simply mistaken. Read the article to inform yourself about what happened in the case of Shani Louk.—Alalch E. 20:20, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Death info source

Just my thoughts. The article describes the bone fragment as being found at the massacre sight. Although this is never stated directly in any source, the german link quotes the mother as saying she now believes Shani died on Oct 7, which does imply she was told the fragment was found on sight. Additionally, it is logical that they found it there, because its crazy to say they found a random small fragment during a Gaza incursion, without the rest of the body. So, even though technically unsourced, I wouldn't change the article. As a scholarly remark, I express my hope that God avenges her blood so we can add an aftermath section discussing the fate of her attackers. 174.251.64.233 (talk) 06:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This is now properly sourced in the article. —Alalch E. 03:56, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Category

Should be added the Category:Murder in Gaza? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.221.242.194 (talk) 02:35, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I doubt it, considering she was killed at the festival site in Israel. See comment titled Death info surce 174.251.64.96 (talk) 05:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

"Status" heading

I disagree with your introduction of a heading that says "Status", because it is not descriptive and not precise (see MOS:HEADINGS: Section headings should generally follow the guidance for article titles --> WP:PRECISE: Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article; this means that headings should unambiguously define the topical scope of the section). Louk's status is that she is dead. —Alalch E. 20:11, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Leaky.Solar: forgot to ping you.—Alalch E. 20:18, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

@Alalch E.: Not to worry, I was just annoyed at how choppy the article read with the long section headers....I wasn't to sure on how best to name that section because some of the bits from the families campaign could be merged in. It was kind of a catch all section for Shani's status after the viral video and the music festival massacre. I personally don't believe that the parts about her reportedly in the Gaza Strip with a head wound should be in the families campaign section and figured it could be merged with her now reported death. It can also provide context about why a large chunk of her skull was found (above mentioned head wound). But I'm open to thoughts for organization and naming. Leaky.Solar (talk) 20:24, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Basically, her family observed a head wound in the video but despite that hoped, according to their statements, that she was alive. But she wasn't alive because an event ocurred which removed the petrous part of the temporal bone from her head, which is not at all a large chunk of a skull, but a deep seated part of the skull that contains the carotid canal. So the family stuff is in my opinion definitely for the family section and not for a reporting-of-fact section. We shouldn't juxtapose those things. —Alalch E. 20:34, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't view it as odd or incorrect to have those two elements together. Her death was reportedly confirmed much later and reports her health status/well being while her status was up in the air show the progression of her known status. Both describe her health and life, although I see how reports of her being alive but injured could have affected how the family responded to her kidnapping.Leaky.Solar (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

There were no reports of her being alive but injured that affected the family, it's the other way around. The family's campaign affected the reporting. The family told the media that someone from Gaza told them that Louk is alive and in a hospital, but this was never verified, so it was never a reporting of fact, but a reporting of an allegation. Now it is evident that those unverified claims were not based in reality, because Louk could not have been in a hospital as a patient due to having been dead, as the video shows her dead body; this is according to the new sources, but also according to the initial (correct) reporting. Therefore it's incorrect to speak of an undetermined "status". —Alalch E. 21:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

And, with respect, I'd like to end this conversation if we're not actually disagreeing about the current structure of the article.—Alalch E. 21:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 November 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Shani was paraded by Palestinian civilians as was shown clearly in the footage. 46.117.136.185 (talk) 03:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. HouseBlaster 04:07, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The "See Also" section should be removed.

Her body is still missing, and thus this isn't really a case of a "Solved Missing Persons Case." She's not technically been legally declared dead yet, despite the fact that it's a medical certainty. She is still technically missing, even if it's most likely just her corpse.

As an unnecessary subjective comment, it's terrible and tragic. 69.249.102.223 (talk) 14:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Friendly fire theory

@Got Milked: You added content suggesting that Louk was killed by friendly fire and I have removed this content because it was not supported by reliable sources. Namely:

• The Cradle is about to get deprecated, see Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RFC: The Cradle
• https://scheerpost.com/2023/10/29/the-hannibal-directive-what-really-happened-on-october-7th/ is "By Mnar Adley / MintPressNews" and MintPressNews was deprecated, find it in WP:RSP
• https://gvwire.com/2023/12/11/israeli-forces-confirm-friendly-fire-in-nova-festival-tragedy/ does not seem like RS.

Sincerely —Alalch E. 00:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Cont.

This content (see the box below) which you, Got Milked, added should be removed because it is not topical in this article. The sources do not mention the killing of Shani Louk. Please self-revert. You added this same paragraph to the article Re'im music festival massacre, but there the alleged occurrence of friendly fire has already been already covered in another part of the prose. Either way, whatever extended text about the festival in general and the Israeli helicopter allegedly killing civilians belongs to that article, not to this article. Placing it in this article only suggests that Shani Louk was killed by friendly fire. But reliable sources that do cover the killing of Shani Louk (unlike the sources which you have used here) do not contain such a supposition, so writing the article so as to say that Louk could have been killed by friendly fire is original speculation, which is in the realm of original research, which is prohibited.

You also seemingly called the coverage in this article "atrocity propaganda" in a previous edit, which could mean that you are editing this page to promote a fringe viewpoint, such as a viewpoint that Louk was killed by the army and that her death has been used as Israeli "atrocity propaganda" to unjustly malign the Palestinian militants.

You could have taken the term "atrocity propaganda" used in this way from websites promoting conspiracy theories and fringe viewpoints such as seen in a MintNews Press article, and you previously tried to insert a MintPress News article as a reference here (MintPress News is a deprecated source, see WP:RSP), meaning that you have been familiarizing yourself with this unreliable outlet, providing further indication that you are editing this article to "correct the narrative" according to the narrative of disinformation outlets, such as MintPress News.

So do not edit in this way, please. Please base yourself on commonsense editorial practices and reliable sources.

Israeli police investigations had revealed that Nova festival-goers were also killed by friendly-fire from at least one AH-64 Apache attack helicopter dispatched from the Ramat David Airbase, and of the approximate 3,500 attendees of the Nova event, 364 of those people have been confirmed killed; the ZAKA Tel Aviv emergency response unit had recommended the shredding and burial of the hundreds of motor vehicles in which many of the victims were slaughtered, due to sanctity of unrecoverable body parts or remains evident in the vehicles.

References

1. Rommen, Rebecca. "IDF combat helicopter targeting Hamas fighters at Nova festival massacre shot some partygoers by mistake, says Haaretz". Business Insider. Retrieved 2023-12-22.
2. "This is why Israel plans to bury hundreds of cars". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. 2023-11-22. Retrieved 2023-12-22.
3. "הערכה במערכת הביטחון: בחמאס לא ידעו מראש על פסטיבל נובה, וזיהו אותו מהאוויר". הארץ (in Hebrew). Retrieved 2023-12-22. "נמצא כי בחמאס תכננו להגיע לקיבוץ רעים ולקיבוצים נוספים, וגילו על המסיבה בזמן אמת. עוד עולה ממנו כי מסוק צבאי שירה לעבר מחבלים פגע ככל הנראה גם בכמה חוגגים" (It was found that Hamas planned to reach Kibbutz Reim and other kibbutzim, and found out about the party in real time. It also shows that a military helicopter that fired at terrorists apparently also hit some revelers)

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