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{{afd-merged-from|Sophie of France (1786–1787)|Sophie of France (1786–1787)|19 September 2022}}
{{afd-merged-from|Sophie of France (1786–1787)|Sophie of France (1786–1787)|19 September 2022}}
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RFC: Ancestry
The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I proposed the inclusion of {{ahnentafel}} in "ancestry" section (with reliable and non-trivial sources, but only can extend to great-grandparents) for this article, which had been removed last 25 October 2019, and another one in 22 May 2020, for these names of the subject's great-great-grandparents are trivial, but Misplaced Pages is not a genealogy database.
Support inclusion I don't see how this is trivia. Genealogy is important for the understanding of the interconnectedness of European states at the time. And given how Marie Antoinette ended it is also relevant to reactions of other states to the French revolution. Also a lot of articles have these and I believe that a lot of people expect this information to be available in the article. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 14:36, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Support For reasons above. I dont think the information is trivial, especially for someone of Marie Antionettes status. EmilySarah99 (talk) 00:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Support inclusion, genealogy of members of ruling houses isn't trivia, but an important piece of information.Marcelus (talk) 07:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Support inclusion. Genealogy is central to understanding historic European royals and their interests. If this was an article about some scientist or popstar then we might dismiss their hitherto-unknown grandparents as trivia, but when they're Holy Roman Emperors, and when that ancestry led directly to Marie Antoinette's role in life (and her notability), that would be foolish. bobrayner (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Support The genealogy of nobles and royal families is significant. On the other hand, I don't have an informed opinion about this template in particular. --Macrakis (talk) 21:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Support From the genealogical WikiProject page: "While Misplaced Pages is not and never was intended as a genealogy software, this area may still be further improved. Nearly all royalty articles include a section of brief ancestry, as well as a list of spouse(s) and issue." Seems to me that Marie Antoinette can indisputably claim generational data on her page. Pistongrinder (talk) 22:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
This 18th-century genealogy book Genealogie ascendante jusqu'au quatrieme degre inclusivement de tous les Rois et Princes de maisons souveraines de l'Europe actuellement vivans has been outdated, and replace with a recent version of Les ancêtres de Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche (see above). 2001:4451:8285:B00:4161:DF21:E022:9C70 (talk) 12:08, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
Les ancêtres de Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche (in French). Paris: Editions généalogique de la Voûte. 2006. ISBN9782847663266.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Last Words
The source for Marie Antoinette's last words on this article is a clickbait listicle which gives no source. I have tracked this quote down to Marie Antoinette: The Journey (2001), by Antonia Frasier (ISBN-13: 9780385489492), p. 580. No source is given in the book itself for this quote, which I find distressing considering how pervasive these supposed last words have become. In the Memoirs of the Sansons, Vol. II (1876), by Henri Sanson (ISBN-13: 978-1172710188), p. 56, Henri Sanson records the last words of Marie Antoinette as "Farewell, my children; I am going to join your father."
I see no reason why an unsourced quote in a random online article should be allowed as a valid source. And even beyond that, I see no reason why an unsourced quote written in a book over 200 years after the death of Marie Antoinette occurred is allowed to persist at all on Misplaced Pages as the purported last words of such a significant historical figure. Fraser's book is a tertiary source (and that is a generous evaluation on my part) which contains no reference whatsoever to any contemporary recordings of this quote. Henri Sanson's records are a secondary source that draw from the diary and notes of Charles-Henri Sanson, the man who put Antoinette to death himself, and his own experiences on the scaffold during the First French Republic. The conclusion I have come to many months after first discovering this discrepancy is that the last words of Antoinette currently on this article are a balatant fabrication by Fraser. Past that, Fraser's book is not even cited on this article. From where does "thoughtcatalogue.com" get any credence? The article on that site does not reference any sources at all. Anyone with a lick of experience on the internet can see that this "Famous Last Words" article was designed from the ground up to only draw in ad revenue.
The currently listed last words of Antoinette do garner a lot of sympathy, but it is unjustifiably gained. As Sanson relates in the memoirs, any real sympathy should come from the fact that this woman was forced into her position as queen and lost her husband and all of her children within such a short period of time. But that is enough for me, and I see no reason why clearly fabricated last words should be used to bring her any more sympathy than the awful circumstances of her life should evoke in any human. Ct00 (talk) 07:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Family tree instead of ahnentafel
While everyone, including me, is in agreement that genealogy is relevant, I question the choice of information presented here. Biographies of Marie Antoinette abound, and a survey of those cited in the article shows that they do not present genealogy in the form of an ahnentafel. Instead they use charts that include siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins, and illustrate Marie Antoinette's relationship to Louis XVI and the French royal family. Therefore I propose replacing the ahnentafel with a chart modelled after those found in the biographies of Marie Antoinette. Surtsicna (talk) 02:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Here is an example modelled after the family tree from Fraser's biography of Marie Antoinette:
Family tree after Fraser, illustrating the Bourbon-Habsburg-Lorraine connections
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