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Inaccurate maps

Both the maps of the distribution on the first part of the page and in the dialects part are unsourced and frankly inaccurate, to add up the first shows random dots all over Greece where supposed minority speakers live but this is unsourced and really just false. 194.30.254.75 (talk) 10:05, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I tagged the first map. As for the map of dialects, I think there was controversy over it and it was supposed to be updated, but this has not happened. StephenMacky1 (talk) 10:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

According to modern Western sociolinguists, the dispute where the border between Bulgarian and Macedonian runs is entirely irrelevant from a modern perspective, as it fails to take into consideration the ethnic and linguistic identity of the speakers. According to Peter Trudgill, the question whether Bulgarian and Macedonian are distinct languages or dialects of a single language cannot be resolved on a purely linguistic basis, but should rather take into account sociolinguistic criteria, i.e., ethnic and linguistic identity of the speakers. Jouko Lindstedt also opines that the dividing line between Macedonian and Bulgarian should be defined by the linguistic identity of the speakers, i.e., by the state border: Even Macedonian linguists as Božidar Vidoeski consider the eastern Macedonian dialects to be transitional to Bulgarian, including the Maleševo-Pirin dialect. According to Riki van Boeschoten, the Slavic dialects of Greek Macedonia are divided into three main dialects (Eastern, Central and Western), of which the Eastern dialect is used in the areas of Serres and Drama, and is closest to Bulgarian, the Western dialect is used in Florina and Kastoria, and is closest to Macedonian, the Central dialect is used in the area between Edessa and Salonica and is an intermediate between Macedonian and Bulgarian. Trudgill classifies certain peripheral dialects in the far east of Greek Macedonia as part of the Bulgarian language area and the rest as Macedonian dialects. Victor Friedman considers those Macedonian dialects, but particularly those spoken as west as Kilkis, to be transitional to Bulgarian. Per Lindsted the yat border splits the Eastern South Slavic (including the region of Macedonia) on a structural grounds and he has assumed that this isogloss that runs from Thessaloniki to Velingrad may be in fact the dividing isogloss between Bulgarian and Macedonian. In this way this map presents a biased or at least not neutral POV. Jingiby (talk) 15:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The map can be moved to Political views on the Macedonian language. Same with the BAN map of dialects. I think it's best to treat fringe views as separate from the mainstream. StephenMacky1 (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Chambers, Jack; Trudgill, Peter (1998). Dialectology (2nd ed.). Cambridge University Press. pp. 7. Similarly, Bulgarian politicians often argue that Macedonian is simply a dialect of Bulgarian – which is really a way of saying, of course, that they feel Macedonia ought to be part of Bulgaria. From a purely linguistic point of view, however, such arguments are not resolvable, since dialect continua admit of more-or-less but not either-or judgements.
2. Tomasz Kamusella, Motoki Nomachi, Catherine Gibson as ed., The Palgrave Handbook of Slavic Languages, Identities and Borders, Springer, 2016; ISBN 1137348399, p. 436.
3. Vidoeski, Božo (2005). Dialects of Macedonian. Slavica. p. 33. ISBN 9780893573157. the northern border zone and the extreme southeast towards Bulgarian linguistic territory. It was here that the formation of transitional dialect belts between Macedonian and Bulgarian in the east, and Macedonian and Serbian in the north began.
4. Boeschoten, Riki van (1993): Minority Languages in Northern Greece. Study Visit to Florina, Aridea, (Report to the European Commission, Brussels) "The Western dialect is used in Florina and Kastoria and is closest to the language used north of the border, the Eastern dialect is used in the areas of Serres and Drama and is closest to Bulgarian, the Central dialect is used in the area between Edessa and Salonica and forms an intermediate dialect"
5. Ioannidou, Alexandra (1999). Questions on the Slavic Dialects of Greek Macedonia. Athens: Peterlang. pp. 59, 63. ISBN 9783631350652. In September 1993 ... the European Commission financed and published an interesting report by Riki van Boeschoten on the "Minority Languages in Northern Greece", in which the existence of a "Macedonian language" in Greece is mentioned. The description of this language is simplistic and by no means reflective of any kind of linguistic reality; instead it reflects the wish to divide up the dialects comprehensibly into geographical (i.e. political) areas. According to this report, Greek Slavophones speak the "Macedonian" language, which belongs to the "Bulgaro-Macedonian" group and is divided into three main dialects (Western, Central and Eastern) - a theory which lacks a factual basis. {{cite book}}: |journal= ignored (help)
6. Trudgill P., 2000, "Greece and European Turkey: From Religious to Linguistic Identity". In: Stephen Barbour and Cathie Carmichael (eds.), Language and Nationalism in Europe, Oxford : Oxford University Press, p.259.
7. Heine, Bernd; Kuteva, Tania (2005). Language Contact and Grammatical Change. Cambridge University Press. p. 118. ISBN 9780521608282. in the modern northern and eastern Macedonian dialects that are transitional to Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian, e.g. in Kumanovo and Kukus/Kilkis, object reduplication occurs with less consistency than in the west-central dialects

"Diferences between the bulgarian and the macedonian language" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Diferences between the bulgarian and the macedonian language has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 1 § Diferences between the bulgarian and the macedonian language until a consensus is reached. _signed, Rosguill 17:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

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