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Requested move 1 January 2024

It has been proposed in this section that 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh be renamed and moved to Azerbaijan's takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh → Azerbaijan's takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh – The offensive is only a small part of this takeover. Vast majority of the article is after the offensive. Lots of sources uses "takeover" as well. Beshogur (talk) 21:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The proposed title better fits the content of the article. Grandmaster 10:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:NPOV. Takeover hides that it was a military invasion that resulted in the "cleansing" of the Armenian population. BilledMammal (talk) 10:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per BilledMammal. "Takeover" is definitely a NPOV title. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 10:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Takeover is too broad and comes across as POV. Perhaps offensive is too specific to the events that have taken place, but I don't think there can be another title which encompasses both the events without being blatantly biased. BBC, Al Jazeera and others use the term, very little use takeover. Other terms like liberation or capture I believe would also be unacceptable. https://en.wikipedia.org/User:EmilePersaud 18:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

• Oppose, per BilledMammal, Chaotic Enby and EmilePersaud. Ken Aeron (talk) 18:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy close, WP:NPOV and this has already been discussed. The current title is appropriate. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support the military offensive is only one part of the article and the title should reflect that. I think takeover if much more preferable to annexation, capture, etc.Yeoutie (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Offensive describes only one aspect of the events that occurred and hence the title is too specific. Takeover feels more appropriate to describe the entirety of the article. - Creffel (talk) 08:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I reckon "Annexation of the Republic of Artsakh by Azerbaijan" would be a better title for this article. N. Mortimer (talk) 15:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Because "takeover" would mask the armed invasion, and there is no evidence of takeover being the common name. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe stop misleading people here. No single word here described this as an invasion. Only 2 times 'invasion' appears, and that's about Ukraine. Beshogur (talk) 11:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NPOV and WP:COMMONNAME offensive is a much more common and neutral term used in reliable secondary sources covering this event. TagaworShah (talk) 02:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Rosguill: would like to hear your thoughts. People claim 'takeover' is POV term while 'offensive' isn't. Beshogur (talk) 11:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

"Takeover" seems unusually informal for an article title in the absence of resounding evidence that it's the WP:COMMONNAME. I'm not sure it's really a question of neutrality between the suggested terms so much as it is a question of tone. It also seems relevant that the scope of the article as-written is the 1-day military operation in September 2023, which matches "offensive" well, but "annexation" (or "takeover") would lead me to expect an article primarily about the administrative process following the initial military maneuver, not the maneuver itself. _signed, Rosguill 14:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Estar8806: Actually I'm the only one providing sources. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh is not a commonname. Bad closure. Beshogur (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

None of the results from the google search you provided (ie. not a reliable source) actually use the title you proposed. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Azerbaijan takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - France 24
• Nagorno-Karabakh during an Azerbaijani military takeover - AJ
• Azerbaijan's takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - Foreign Policy
• takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - FT
• Azerbaijan's military takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - DW
• Nagorno-Karabakh after Azerbaijan's lightning takeover - The Guardian

These are results without even clicking. Beshogur (talk) 10:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair point. My results must be different. I see no problem with reverting and relishing, so that's what I'll do. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support: The proposed title makes more sense. The offence was just a few hours, whereas the article covers a much wider range of period including the aftermath that is talked about more than the offensive itself.KHE'O (talk) 17:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose "Azerbaijan's". As I've expressed before this is gramatically bizarre. Why would we not use the demonym form instead? No opinion on the rest of the wording. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 21:07, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per @Kheo17 as a more accurate and meaningful description. Killuminator (talk) 15:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

RFC on UN mission report

Kavita Belani, United Nations Refugee Agency Representative in Armenia, stated on 29 September 2023 that "there were no recorded incidents or cases of mistreatment against people on the move".

A UN mission that visited Nagorno-Karabakh on 1 October 2023 reported that "they did not come across any reports — either from the local population or from others — of violence against civilians following the latest ceasefire."

Should the above statements by the UN missions be included in the article when discussing reports on violence against civilian population?

• Option 1 - Mention these statement in the article with proper attribution.
• Option 2 - Make no mention at all.

Please enter Option 1 or Option 2, followed by a brief statement, in the Survey. Do not reply to other users in the Survey. Back-and-forth discussion may be conducted in the Threaded Discussion section. Grandmaster 10:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 1. We have already had an RFC on the UN mission report in the parallel article , but since there is a disagreement whether the consensus applies to this article as well, I decided to do another one for this article. I support the inclusion of the UN reports, because the claims of violence have no independent confirmation or verification, while UNHCR and the special UN mission to the region are the UN representatives and the UN is independent from the parties to the conflict. If we discuss allegations of violence, the information from the top international organization is very important and has a direct relevance to the topic. Grandmaster 10:36, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per the previous RfC. Yes, the report is controversial (I'd say awful but I prefer to stay polite), but it's still the UN and it still has a level of legitimacy attached to it, coming from such an important organization. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 10:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

  It's from the UN, but I don't believe material is automatically WP:DUE just because it is from the UN; I think we need evidence of sufficient coverage of this material in reliable and independent sources to establish that it is, as well as to help us establish the context in which we should put the material. BilledMammal (talk) 10:51, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2. First, for the 1 October 2023 statement:
  1. First, inclusion of these aspects of the mission is not automatically WP:DUE. To establish that it is due we need sufficient coverage in reliable sources of these aspects; such coverage has not been presented.
  2. Second, this information is misleading. The quoted section of the report says they did not come across any reports from the local population, but neglects to mention that they arrived after almost the entire local population had already fled.
  3. Third, they are presented as a neutral mission, but they neglect to mention that they are from the Resident Coordinator for the United Nations in Azerbaijan.

Second, for the 29 September 2023 statement: It is now out date, with more recent reports identifying violence such as this report from the EU, which says whereas there have been credible reports of looting, destruction, violence and arrests committed by Azerbaijani troops since the beginning of the offensive and strongly condemns the threats and acts of violence committed by Azerbaijani troops against the population of Nagorno-Karabakh

Finally, as a side note, this RfC presents a disturbingly one-sided image of the conflict. For example, it does not proposing adding the contemporary statement from USAID, which did find reports of violence against fleeing civilians. BilledMammal (talk) 10:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2. No mention all; in the context of the "no incidents" being over a week after a ceasefire, and not referring to this article's subject at all. Besides, this report is already mentioned in the article, it doesn't need to be copied somewhere to imply something completely different. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:45, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 for the same reasons as previously. A report put together by a mission sent by the highest international authority cannot be undue by definition. The fact that the mission arrived in the region one week later is irrelevant. There are cases of UN fact-finding missions sent to conflict areas months later (e.g. here), some of them ultimately facing criticism, but they are still mentioned in ledes. Parishan (talk) 21:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 Feels very strange omitting such important information about the event, from the U.N. no less, in the lead of the article. Should have already been included there. - Creffel (talk) 16:19, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 2 There is a segment in the article about this exact report from the United Nations office in Azerbaijan , and it’s in a better context along with its criticisms. We don’t add an out of context sentence from after the offensive, and which ultimately came from the attacking side’s (Azerbaijan’s) UN office no less after nearly all the region’s Armenian population fled. Vanezi (talk)
• Option 1 per the respective discussion and the point given. I support incorporating the UN statements into the article with proper attribution. These statements, indicating no recorded incidents of mistreatment or violence, offer a significant perspective from the organization. It should have already been included in the first place. — Toghrul R (t) 06:46, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 per Grandmaster. The UN is the largest and the most notable international organization in the world. It is absurd to ignore the UN report findings in this article.KHE'O (talk) 18:23, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1 Due but not in the lead. Senorangel (talk) 00:54, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 This report of UN office in Azerbaijan is already in the article. What I don’t agree is adding to it the controversial bit of this not so independent report which comes from the attacking country’s office of the organization, and which was largely criticised in reliable sources. Nocturnal781 (talk) 14:51, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

@BilledMammal

1. Whether this information was due or not was discussed in much detail in previous RFC. I will not repeat the same arguments, I just don't see how the most important international organization could be undue.

2. The dates of the reports show the time of their arrival.

3. The UN team was lead by the Resident Coordinator for the United Nations in Azerbaijan, but first, the UN representative in Azerbaijan does not work for Azerbaijan's governement, and second, it also included representatives of other UN bodies, such as, quote: The team included Ramesh Rajasingham, the Director of the Coordination Division of the for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), representatives of the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), UNICEF (United Nations Children’s Fund), the UNHCR (United Nations Refugee Agency) and the World Health Organization (WHO). It was a team representing various UN bodies.

And lastly, no one objects to inclusion of other sources, the RFC is on those sources inclusion of which is disputed. Grandmaster 11:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

NPOV issues

Hello Ken Aeron, you had made a number of WP:NPOV edits recently, such as the Armed Forces of Armenia being present in Artsakh, which was unsourced, and removing that Artsakh was primarily populated by Armenians, which you only explained as a "fix". And it is inaccurate to say Azerbaijan "regains" these territories, because it never had de facto control of them previously. I put the bias accusation in quotes, as it is in quotations within the source as well. Please don't remove sourced information without discussing why first. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

"Regain" is the correct term. The USSR ceased to exist in December 1991. With the exception of Stepanakert, every other major town in Nagorno-Karabakh came under Armenian control when Azerbaijan was already an independent state, e.g. Karkijahan (a suburb of Stepanakert) by late January 1992, Khojaly and Askeran by late February 1992, Shusha in May 1992 (see corresponding article), Hadrut in October 1992, Mardakert by late June 1993. If Azerbaijan did not control these regions de facto, then what were those battles about? Parishan (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Because Azerbaijan had controlled over the majority of the former NKAO since the Soviet Union fell, "regain" in the de facto sense is simply incorrect. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I still do not understand why. You said earlier that Azerbaijan "never had de facto control" over these territories as an independent country when it clearly did (cf. places and dates above). Why is "regain" incorrect? Parishan (talk) 11:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Here are sources confirming that Azerbaijan never previously had de facto control over the former NKAO. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:22, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Where exactly do they say that? I am looking at the first source and it clearly says: "From 1988 to 1992, with the Soviet Union in decline, Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians entertained hopes that the demise of Soviet rule would also bring the end of Azeri control over the region", which means that Azerbaijan was in control of Nagorno-Karabakh as of 1992.

The third source says the exact opposite of what you are alleging: "Hence, the territorial decisions taken by the Soviets in those days had to be respected, and they still form the basis of current state structure in the region. Therefore, there are no doubts about the international borders of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which included Nagorno-Karabakh at the time it was founded according to the principle of uti possidetis."

I am discarding the second link: Haykaram Nahapetyan of the Public TV Company of Armenia is not a reliable source.

Just for the record: if you run "Azerbaijan regained control" in a search engine, you will end up with hundreds of results. This is not a difficult statement to back up with reliable sources. Parishan (talk) 00:58, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

These sources are referring to Soviet Azerbaijan within the USSR, not an independent Republic of Azerbaijan. The Republic of Artsakh and the Republic of Azerbaijan both declared statehood at virtually the same time at the fall of the Soviet Union. Various sources support the fact that an independent Azerbaijan never had de facto control over Artsakh, I can provide plenty more. Various other sources indicate that de jure control was also limited. Basically an independent Azerbaijan has never exercised de facto control over NKR (and limited de jure control of Az SSR, as per "autonomous oblast"), hence it is more neutral and accurate to simply state "took".

• "Nagorno-Karabakh had never been ruled by a post-Soviet independent Azerbaijan" link
• "Thus, the above-mentioned clearly shows that Nagorno Karabakh has never been part of independent Azerbaijan." link
• "Disputing the historical basis for Azerbaijan’s claim of title to territory, Armenia points out that the League of Nations refused to recognize the 1918–20 Azerbaijan Republic in part because the pro- spective state did not have effective control of the territory it claimed. This tidbit of historical legalism gives the Karabakh Armenians justification for claiming territory that was never, according to their argument, part of an independent Azerbaijan.... The Armenian argument emphasized not only that the disputed enclave had never been part of independent Azerbaijan but also that..." link
• "Third, the region has never been part of the territory of independent Azerbaijan." link
• "Heydar Aliyev’s monument in the heart of Mexico City, which on the lower end has cost $5.5 million, was “generously” donated by oil-rich Azerbaijan and contains another underlying message: the huge map made out of marble behind Aliyev’s sculpture shows Nagorno Karabakh as part of modern Azerbaijan. This territory was never part of independent Azerbaijan and was granted to Soviet Azerbaijan upon Stalin’s dictatorial pressure in 1921." link
• "Thus, Nagorno-Karabakh was arguably never truly a part of independent Azerbaijan."link
• Considering the Karabakh question,for instance, Azerbaijani history usually begins in the mid-1800s; with the normative,ideal situation considered to be the state of affairs for the 20th century (i.e. Azerbaijan has sovereignty over Karabakh). While discussing the Southern Azerbaijan issue, however,the nationalists' historical record portrays the normative,ideal situation as having ended in 1828-but even that period is problematic because the "united Azerbaijan" was never independent(as Elchibey's previous remark about the "restoration of a united Azerbaijan"might mislead one to believe); instead,it was always a part of the Iranian empire." link
• "Under the rule of the Russian Tsar, Nagorno-Karabakh was assigned to the administrative districts from which the Republic of Azerbaijan later emerged. When Russian supremacy was weakened as a result of the revolutions in 1917, both Armenians and Azerbaijanis laid claim to Nagorno-Karabakh. The region’s affiliation was disputed and not determined at that time. Moreover, the proclaimed Armenian and Azerbaijani republics could not be considered as independent states and their recognition was, therefore, refused by the League of Nations in 1920 due to the lack of recognized borders, of a constitution, and of a stable government.53" link
• "On 2 September the Karabakh Armenians also declared independence, which they underscored by means of a swiftly organized referendum, in which 99 per cent of the (Armenian) population voted for full sovereignty. Reciprocally' the Azeri parliament abolished the autonomy of Karabakh, which, however, had no further real influence on developments." link
• "Under this agreement Nagorno-Karabakh has not been part of an independent Azerbaijan, and Azerbaijan has not exercised sovereignty over Nagorno-Karabakh." link

KhndzorUtogh (talk)

These sources are referring to Soviet Azerbaijan within the USSR, not an independent Republic of Azerbaijan. There was no Soviet Azerbaijan in 1992, so no, they do not refer to Soviet Azerbaijan.

The Republic of Artsakh and the Republic of Azerbaijan both declared statehood at virtually the same time at the fall of the Soviet Union. It matters little when either of them declared independence since the discussion started with you doubting that independent Azerbaijan was ever de facto in control over Nagorno-Karabakh before 2020. If as of 22 December 1991 (the day the USSR ceased to exist), Azerbaijan was still in control of Shusha, Khojaly, Askeran, Hadrut, Mardakert, and even of Stepanakert suburbs, all which came under Armenian control throughout 1992 and 1993, it means that Azerbaijan as an independent state was indeed in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh at least for a few solid months (and up to a year-and-a-half's period). This is supported by the sources I quoted above.

The links you have provided to support your allegation are a compilation of results of a what appears to be a hasty online search. Their reliability really leaves much to be desired. Let us take a look at whom you are citing:

• Yelena Ambartsumian, a transactional lawyer who published her article in an arts blog;
• Hayk Torosyan of the Yerevan-based Russian-Armenian University, a clearly partisan source (if I start quoting what scholars from Azerbaijan have to say about Karabakh, this discussion will never see its end);
• Arman Sarvarian, a Bachelor's student in Law when his article was published, unlikely peer-reviewed at the time;
• Haykaram Nahapetyan of the Public TV Company of Armenia, a partisan source of dubious reliability;
• Tigran Yepremyan of Yerevan State University, another partisan source;
• The last link yields the text of a bill (!) referred by the Pennsylvania House of Representatives to the state government and never voted on.

I believe the affiliations and the credentials of these sources speak for themselves. I am therefore only going to comment on the four sources that are reliable and authored by established, peer-reviewed scholars.

• Anne-Marie Gardner summarises the Karabakh Armenians' point of view when talking about Azerbaijan allegedly never being in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh (she clearly says "according to their argument"; this is neither her opinion, nor a reflection of any third-party opinion).
• Cameron Brown adresses Elchibey's "united Azerbaijan" concept, which has nothing to do with the Karabakh issue and refers to Elchibey's support of Iranian Azerbaijani irredentism, with the goal of it forming a single state with the Republic of Azerbaijan. Where exactly does the author say anything about Azerbaijan never controlling Nagorno-Karabakh?
• Heiko Krüger discusses the quarrel over Karabakh in 1917–1920 in the excerpt you have provided. I already quoted the part of his article where he concludes that Azerbaijan was indeed in control of Nagorno-Karabakh at the time of the USSR's dissolution.
• Emil Souleimanov does not say that Azerbaijan was never in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh; he only says that the abolition of the autonomy by the government of Azerbaijan did not curtail the sovereignty movement. Parishan (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Your source breakdown is really just opinion. Several of these sources like HyperAllergic were previously discussed on WP:RSN, and the community didn't deem it unreliable or unsuitable for Misplaced Pages. Here are two more sources that describe the leadup and the actual first NKR war as "a civil war" either within Azerbaijan or within the USSR.

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/11/08/afghan-fighters-aiding-azerbaijan-in-civil-war/48f8e736-75b6-4472-8d6f-4665df1debe8/
2. De Waal. Black Garden, p. 120.

This means that Soviet Azerbaijan was not in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh before the USSR collapsed (again, emphasizing the distinction between an independent and Soviet Azerbaijan, and de facto and de jure). De Waal describes a Soviet civil war "in which units of the soviet army were engaged in fighting on Soviet territory".

Prior to 1990, Nagorno-Karabakh was an autonomous region within the Azerbaijan SSR, meaning Azerbaijan had de jure control over the area. De facto, it was governed locally by its predominantly ethnic Armenian population, but within the constraints of its status as part of the Azerbaijan SSR under the Soviet Union. The situation began to change dramatically as the Soviet Union started to disintegrate, leading to the declaration of independence by Nagorno-Karabakh and the subsequent war.

Local governance in Nagorno-Karabakh, like other autonomous oblasts in the Soviet Union, was designed to reflect the ethnic composition of the region. This meant that many of the local administrative positions were held by ethnic Armenians. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Several of these sources like HyperAllergic were previously discussed on WP:RSN, and the community didn't deem it unreliable or unsuitable for Misplaced Pages. It was discussed there only in the context of an art-related matter. I do not remember there ever being consensus either about that or about HyperAllergic's authority on any AA2 issue, especially when it comes to articles published by authors with questionable credentials.

the actual first NKR war as "a civil war" either within Azerbaijan or within the USSR. A civil war is "a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country" (as defined by Merriam-Webster), so if a source refers to the First Karabakh War as a "civil war in Azerbaijan", it can only mean Nagorno-Karabakh was part of Azerbaijan at the time of the war according to that source.

I am afraid I must repeat my original question: if Azerbaijan did not control Shusha, Khojaly, Askeran, Hadrut, Mardakert, and even of Stepanakert suburbs (all of which were situated within Nagorno-Karabakh) de facto until 1992–1993, when it was no longer a Soviet state, then what were those battles about? Parishan (talk) 01:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

But that same country was the Soviet Union. Michael Croissant writes in The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict that "with de facto Azerbaijani authority over the NKAO broken in the latter half of 1988" (p. 34). This confirms an independent Azerbaijan never had de facto control over the region previously. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

But that same country was the Soviet Union. Then what was the point of you bringing up that source?

Croissant does not say that Azerbaijan's authority over the NKAO was lost permanently in 1988. In fact, just on the next page he talks about the reinstatement of "direct Azerbaijan rule over the NKAO" in November 1989.

Also, when talking about the capture of Khojaly in February 1992 (p. 78), Croissant states: "Khojaly was of major symbolic and strategic significance to Azerbaijan in its quest to retain control over the territory of the former NKAO". The word "retain" suggests that (post-Soviet) Azerbaijan had up until that point been in control of the former NKAO.

Croissant adds (p. 80) that the capture of Lachin in May 1992 "consolidate the ouster of Azerbaijani forces from Nagorno-Karabakh that had begun at Khojaly", which is a clear indication that the Azerbaijani (not Soviet) army was in control of Nagorno-Karabakh before it was ousted from there as part of a process which started with the capture of Khojaly.

Next is the 1992 summer offensive (p. 84), on which Croissant comments thus: "The fall of Mardakert and surrounding towns left virtually all of northern Nagorno-Karabakh in Azerbaijani hands for the first time since the beginning of the year, thus signaling a shift in the fortunes of war in favor of Azerbaijan."

I can continue but I believe these excerpts are enough to illustrate that Azerbaijan was in de facto control of the NKAO (and specifically of the regions recaptured in 2023) for months after the dissolution of the USSR and that the word "regain" is justified for the 2023 developments. Parishan (talk) 04:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Parishan, please do not pull quotes out of context. Page 35 refers to a Soviet vote decision (de jure, not de facto) that, as the next paragraph states, was rejected by the NKAO leadership and never put into practice. The very next page refers to it as a "toothless roar from the Kremlin". In any case, this is still predates an independent Azerbaijan state.

On pages 77-78, Croissant explains that the area was already de facto controlled by Armenian forces and Azerbaijan had been preparing to take full de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh in late 1991 when it gained independence, then tried to march on Stepanakert but failed to capture it:

The opening months of 1992 were marked by the explosion of full-scale war in and around Nagorno-Karabakh between forces of the fledgling Azerbaijani national army and locally raised units of the so-called Karabakh army, both of whom had acquired substantial amounts of weaponry from withdrawing Soviet Interior Ministry troops and from Soviet military facilities. While Baku had begun mobilizing for war in December 1991, the ostensible catalyst for an early 1992 Azerbaijani offensive was the 18 January proclamation of an independent "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" (NKR) by the Supreme Soviet of the former NKAO.

In response to the declaration of independence by Nagorno-Karabakh, the Azerbaijanis launched a major military operation against Stepanakert from the nearby town of Agdam on 31 January. Intended apparently to drive Armenian forces out of the area, the offensive included several thousand Azerbaijani soldiers backed by armored vehicles and rocket and artillery fire. However, in what emerged as a pattern common to most of Baku's military operations over the next two years, Azerbaijani forces carried out their attacks in a haphazard and uncoordinated way and were beaten back in rapid fashion by Stepanakert's Armenian defenders. Thereafter, Azerbaijani troops resorted to seemingly indiscriminate rocket and artillery attacks on the Karabakh capital and nearby villages from nearby heights in an attempt to break the will of the Armenian populace. Such attacks, however, failed to achieve their goal, and Armenian efforts to silence the sources of Azerbaijani fire became a major factor in the escalation of hostilities through early 1992.

This proves very definitely that the current Azerbaijan state never had de facto control over the entire Nagorno-Karabakh. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:56, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any contradiction with what I said earlier. Yes, Stepanakert was under de facto Armenian control as of the day the USSR ceased to exist, and I do not believe to have ever argued with this. However, Stepanakert is far from qualifying as "the entire Nagorno-Karabakh" due to constituting but a tiny percentage of its territory. Every other place on which the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic laid claims in its declaration of independence, including Karkijahan and Malibeyli, both immediate suburbs of Stepanakert, were under Azerbaijani control until at least February 1992. The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic was not in full de facto control of its proclaimed territory until summer 1993, i.e. 18 months into Azerbaijan's independence, so "regain" seems like a very suitable word to use. Parishan (talk) 02:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

From January 1992, Armenian forces had de facto control over almost the entire NKAO. Crossiant clearly states full-scale war in and around Nagorno-Karabakh. If you are now admitting Azerbaijan never had full de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh previously, then you are also admitting that using the word "retakes" is false. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

From January 1992, Armenian forces had de facto control over almost the entire NKAO. It most certainly did not. See Capture of Gushchular and Malibeyli, Battle of Shusha (1992), Khojaly massacre, Mardakert and Martuni Offensives. If Azerbaijan did not control Shusha, Khojaly, Askeran, Hadrut, Mardakert, and even of Stepanakert suburbs (all of which were situated within Nagorno-Karabakh) de facto until 1992–1993, when it was no longer a Soviet state, then what were those battles about?

Crossiant clearly states full-scale war in and around Nagorno-Karabakh. Yes, but where does he say exactly that Azerbaijan was not in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh? If the NKR controlled Nagorno-Karabakh de facto, then why was there "full-scale war" in Nagorno-Karabakh to begin with?

If you are now admitting Azerbaijan never had full de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh previously. I am not sure what you are referring to. I do not recall "admitting" anything of this sort. In any case, it is irrelevant what I am "admitting". We need reliable sources stating that independent Azerbaijan never had any factual control of any part of Nagorno-Karabakh before 2020. So far we have seen none. On the contrary, we have seen a series of sources, including some quoted by you, confirming that Azerbaijan was indeed in control of Nagorno-Karabakh at the onset of the war. Parishan (talk) 05:21, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Typo

In the 20 September section, Artsakh is spelled "Arsakh" once. I request that someone who can edit the article fix the typo, I can't because I don't fulfill the editing requirements. Carrot Powder (talk) 12:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done ChaotıċEnby(talk · contribs) 18:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing

@Grandmaster What sources do you have for removing information from a peer-reviewed journal article published by John Hopkins University Press and written by a subject-matter expert? Where are the reliable secondary sources that say there is no consensus of ethnic cleansing? And no the UN report does not deny ethnic cleansing, nor is it a secondary source, international organizations don’t decide what is written on Misplaced Pages, reliable peer-reviewed historic sources do, and there is consensus among these sources that these events constituted ethnic cleansing of the Karabakh Armenian population. Besides Saparov, we have a multitude of other international scholars who have stated this such as Christina Maranci, Luis Moreno Ocampo, and more. There is consensus among secondary sources that this was ethnic cleansing, this is not a current event anymore, we don’t need to rely on primary sources. TagaworShah (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Copying reverted source below for clarification:

Saparov, Arsène (2023). "Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict: What's Next?". Ab Imperio (3). Project MUSE: Johns Hopkins University Press: 184. doi:10.1353/imp.2023.a915234. ISSN 2164-9731. TagaworShah (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

We have already discussed this at Talk:Flight_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Armenians#Requested_move_18_January_2024. The Misplaced Pages community did not agree that there was a consensus among the reliable sources to call this event an ethnic cleansing. What is the basis for your claim that "There is consensus among secondary sources that this was ethnic cleansing"? If you want to include the claim of an ethnic cleansing as a fact, you must demonstrate that this is what the majority of reliable sources call it. Just because some sources call it so does not mean that it is generally accepted to call this event an ethnic cleansing. The infobox should only contain generally accepted facts, and not opinions of some sources. We can also do another RFC on this, if you wish. Grandmaster 08:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Again you are misrepresenting the result of that unrelated discussion, the consensus was that specific article should not be renamed with many editors agreeing that a new article should be made covering the entire ethnic cleansing of Karabakh Armenians. It was a case of article titles, but this is not such a case, it’s a statement of fact in an infobox that is backed by peer-reviewed expert sources, I can provide much more sources If need be, this is not a fringe opinion and in fact most scholars (people who actually study ethnic cleansing) agree that this offensive did lead to a final ethnic cleansing of the Armenian population of Karabakh. Let’s discuss this here before jumping to RFC, that should only be done after extensive discussion not at the start. TagaworShah (talk) 17:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

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