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Revision as of 12:23, 29 February 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Holocaust denial article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Please read before starting Misplaced Pages policy notes for new editors: A common objection made by new arrivals is that the article presents Holocaust denial in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of it is too extensive or violates Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View (WP:NPOV) policy. The sections of the policy that apply directly to this article are: Neutral point of view: Fringe theories and pseudoscience (WP:PSCI) Neutral point of view: Due and undue weight (WP:UNDUE) Neutral point of view: Giving "equal validity" (WP:GEVAL) Also of particular relevance are: Tendentious editing: Righting Great Wrongs (WP:RGW) Verifiability: Exceptional claims require exceptional sources (WP:REDFLAG) In short, there are certain topics and fringe viewpoints we should not be giving false balance to. See Fringe theories (WP:FRINGE) for more context on how Misplaced Pages deals with fringe views.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Important: In order to save editors from repeatedly answering questions which have already been asked, as well saving you the time from asking them, it is strongly recommended that you view the following FAQ section, which contains responses that represent editorial consensus on the following issues which have frequently arisen on the Holocaust denial talk page. In addition, the links given to related archived discussions are not necessarily exhaustive, and it is recommended that you use the search tool as well. To view an item, click the link to the right of the question. 1: Holocaust denial is not necessarily antisemitic. Response: One item that has been raised here several times is the contention that Holocaust denial is not inherently antisemitic, and/or that Misplaced Pages should not conclude that everyone who is a Holocaust denier harbors antisemitic feelings. Misplaced Pages is not here to conclude that, and its editors' opinion on the matter - whatever those opinions are and regardless of who they belong to - are irrelevant. Misplaced Pages is here to present what reliable sources say. In this case, there is a preponderance of reliable material stating that Holocaust denial is antisemitic, and therefore the article notes that Holocaust denial is considered to be antisemitic, and why the antisemitism template is legitimately included. Related archived discussion: , . 2: The antisemitism template should be removed. Response: Please see the response to Item 1 as to why the antisemitism template is legitimately placed. 3: Holocaust denial should be renamed Holocaust revisionism Response: No. Per numerous reliable sources, the correct terminology is Holocaust denial/denier. Related archived discussion: , , , , , . 4: Not all historians reject Holocaust denial. Response: Yes, they do. As is already stated in the article, according to the oldest and largest American association of historians and history teachers, "no serious historian questions that the Holocaust took place", and that Holocaust denial is a form of "academic fraud". Misplaced Pages must avoid using vague or unspecific terms, and words which do not accuractely reflect what reliable sources say. Related archived discussion: , . 5: The 4 million Auschwitz plaque Response: One issue relates to the death toll plaque at Auschwitz, which was amended following the collapse of the Soviet Union to read 1.5 million Jewish deaths, instead of 4 million victims of no specified ethnicity or background. The Soviet authorities estimated the death toll not via historical methodology, but by working out how many people could have been cremated during the entire existence of the camp, taking 20% off to account for crematoria down-time, and using that number: around 4 million. They did not, for example, examine how many people were sent to the camp versus how many did not return, but used the 4 million variant to purposely overstate non-Jewish deaths, and diminish the fact that 90% of those that disappeared following their deportation to Auschwitz were Jewish. Once the Iron Curtain fell, communist pressure to keep the original Soviet estimate ceased and the more accurate estimate replaced it. In any event, reputable historians did not use the 4 million figure in their calculations of the overall number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. Rather, they used numbers of 1 to 1.5 million, figures which are still used today. Related archived discussion/items: , , and the appropriate section in the Auschwitz article.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Holocaust denial. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Holocaust denial at the Reference desk.

Do not feed the trolls! This article or its talk page has experienced trolling. The subject may be controversial or otherwise objectionable, but it is important to keep discussion on a high level. Do not get bogged down in endless debates that don't lead anywhere. Know when to deny recognition and refer to WP:PSCI, WP:FALSEBALANCE, WP:WIKIVOICE, or relevant notice-boards. Legal threats and trolling are never allowed!

	Holocaust denial was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 6, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted October 11, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted December 27, 2006 Good article nominee Listed July 5, 2007 Good article reassessment Kept July 15, 2008 Good article reassessment Kept June 6, 2020 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Jewish history Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Alternative views Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative views, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.Alternative viewsWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative viewsTemplate:WikiProject Alternative viewsAlternative views Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Skepticism Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Germany Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. European history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Law High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Discrimination Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

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"The Holohoax" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect The Holohoax has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 February 8 § The Holohoax until a consensus is reached. Liz 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Why no evidence in the article for the denial?

There is literally a complete, separate Misplaced Pages article on the evidence for the standard Holocaust theory. ("Evidence and documentation for the Holocaust")

This seems to be the only article for Holocaust Denial. Why is there no evidence for the Holocaust Denial / Revisionism here? There are multiple books on the subject, and for example the Zundel trials were places where evidence was given. (The trial evidence is also in books)

So why is there no evidence in this article? For example, hoaxes relating to Holocaust diaries, death tolls etc are pure facts, and can be found even on MSM, but somehow not here. Ioooi (talk) 03:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Because we have a higher standard of what constitutes "evidence". - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 04:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Your statement seems to be objectively not true.

Ioooi (talk) 22:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The same reason we don't list evidence that the earth is flat? EvergreenFir (talk) 04:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

You do realize it is much, much more persuasive to claim the the Flat Earthers are "wrong", if you actually take all of their arguments, and show why they are wrong?

Currently, Misplaced Pages clearly avoids every single thing about Holocaust Denial like a hot potato. Not a single mention of e.g. the long, long list of different hoaxes that made it even to MSM through all the years.

If the theory is true, it will be extremely easy to show that it is true. For example, everyone who doubts the gravity as a permanent physical phenomenom, can be pretty quickly shown to be wrong.

Ioooi (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Here is literally a list of evidence against the Evolution theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/Objections_to_evolution

Ioooi (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

As you noticed, there already is an article that explains the evidence for the Holocaust. TFD (talk) 06:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

But why on earth there is not a similar article on the evidence against the standard Holocaust theories?

The intellectual credibility of Misplaced Pages is not very high, if every single piece of evidence against the Holocaust is just censored to oblivion.

Here is an article against the Evolution theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Objections_to_evolution

Ioooi (talk) 22:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

In order to create an article you need to show there is a sufficient body of sources to establish weight. There is a large body of literature addressing creationist objections to evolution. But there is probably little or none addressing the arguments of Holocaust deniers. Or can you name any articles or books written about it? TFD (talk) 23:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

That other article is "objections to evolution", not "evidence against evolution", because the former exists, but the latter does not. Likewise, there is no real "evidence against the standard Holocaust theories". We deal in facts here, and Sealioning is not looked upon kindly. - Sumanuil. _{(talk to me)} 23:07, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I read the Misplaced Pages guidelines on this, and they *specifically* note that these viewpoints can be expressed, and Holocaust Denial was a *specific* example of a "fringe theory", that can and will be written about, despite it being completely contrarian to standard theories of history.

"Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the flat Earth concept"

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight

"The notability of a fringe theory must be judged by statements from verifiable and reliable sources, not the proclamations of its adherents. Additionally, the topic must satisfy general notability guidelines: the topic must receive significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"

"Examples

• • Sufficiently notable for dedicated articles:
    • Holocaust denial"

https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Examples

Thus I claim that Misplaced Pages should 100% have an article about the Holocaust Denial "proof", and that it is 100% in line with the specific Misplaced Pages Guidelines on articles about Fringe Theories

Clearly, the Holocaust Denial is a matter of sufficient notability & importance to have it's own article, otherwise this page would not exist. And clearly, a page like that should have in it the "proof" for the fringe theory in question. Without this, Misplaced Pages is not much more than cherrypicked propaganda.

Ioooi (talk) 23:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

This article mentions the claims, appropriately. If you wish to provide some reliable sources providing proofs for the assertions of Holocaust Denial, please do so. --jpgordon 23:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 February 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Holocaust denial. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Request to remove the word "myth" from the lead of the article.

The original sentence includes:

"... that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a myth, fabrication, or exaggeration."

I'm proposing changing this to:

"... that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a fabrication or exaggeration."

Misplaced Pages defines "myth" as "a genre of folklore or theology consisting primarily of narratives that play a fundamental role in a society, such as foundational tales or origin myth." There are a number of places in Misplaced Pages where it's emphasized that the encylopedic/academic/historical use of the word "myth" means "legend" or "origin story" (see here, here, here, and here). Here, it's being used to mean "false statement", which is explicitly discouraged in those links.

Also, if we take "myth" to mean "false statement", then it's a synonym for "fabrication", so "myth, fabrication, or exaggeration" is redundant. Crystalholm (talk) 05:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

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