Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:05, 10 April 2005

Old stuff

User talk:RK/Archive
User talk:RK/Archive 2
User talk:RK/Archive 3
user talk:RK/Departure
User talk:RK/Archive 5

New discussions and edits

Topics I will soon edit: Abraham Joshua Heschel, Conservative responsa, Mishneh Torah, Blood libel,

Also, for those interested, please see my new comment at Talk:XY_sex-determination_system. I think we need to remove two of the redirects, and allow Misplaced Pages to develop one article on the X chromosome, and one article on the Y chromosome. What do you think? RK 22:36, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

RK,

I've killed the redirects and put up short stubs for the X and Y chromosomes, plus a list of of things that should and could be covered in the articles on their talk pages. I'd appreciate help with expanding the articles, the Y chromosome in particular has potential to become a very interesting article. I'm always finding gaps in wiki's genetics coverage, some more like dosage compensation, and x-inactivation arise from this --nixie 00:23, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You're back!

Praise Anthere, you're back! As you seem to plan some biology work as well, this is probably going to be quite enjoyable. What are your plans with Mishneh Torah?

I agree that the title XY sex-determination system does not cover the content and that X chromosome and Y chromosome deserve to be seperate pages.

I must warn you that John Gohde is back and pretty much ******. I have already received a typical blast of rudeness when I offered my help in recovering his cherished infoboxes. JFW | T@lk 23:50, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Its good to hear from you, and I hope you find my small additions today to be of some use. RK

Hi, Robert. Though we have had our differences, I am also glad to see you back. Thanks for sticking with us, through good times and bad. I am sincerely happy to hear that you will be joining us again. Danny 00:57, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Danny, it is good to be back, and good to hear from you. I look forward to working with you on any articles. RK 23:04, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back!! 172 03:07, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hey, 172, long time no see. Good to hear from you. RK 23:04, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back, RK -- thank you for respecting the community's decision despite disagreeing with it. I think it a very clear demonstration of the fact that, regardless of what people may say about their interactions with you in the past, you are a user who values this project and who plans to continue doing good work here. I want to apologize once again for the confusion I created in applying the block on your account in October, and I hope that I can work cooperatively with you on an article at some point in the future. Best regards, Jwrosenzweig 21:23, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The past is in the past, I am sure that everything is cool. I am sure we'll work well together. RK 23:04, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

You are violating the AC ruling that "RK is banned from editing articles directly or indirectly related to Judaism for one year". You had better stop before someone starts applying the prescribed penalties. --Zero 01:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Zero, what the hell are you talking about? I have never heard of any such ban, ever. And I do not know any of the people working on the Judaism oriented articles who would even ask for such a thing. RK 18:47, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back,RK. Jayjg 16:56, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Jay! Good to back, and I look forward to working with you. I have been doing limited work since, I got back - I just took a four day Wiki-break, only to come back when Wiki was down due to server problems. I've been on for over an hour today, and got very little done, except in the Chabad article. Maybe tomorrow the serve will be more compliant. RK 14:25, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Banned again for no reason?!

This is really sick. Simonides and Zero instigated four out of nine Admins to ban me from editing all Judaism articles for a full year. Worse, they did so on th every articles on which I and others have the most success cooperating!

Josiah, JayJG, JFWolff and I have very different ideas about Judaism, yet we obviously have been able to work on these Judaism articles.

It is a gross violation of Sysop and Admin power to create rules that apply to only one person, and to no one else. By definition, when Misplaced Pages Admins engage in such behaviour, they are violating their own mandate, and thei "rulings" have no authority and are not binding.

1. I am not involved in any flame wars. So why the year long ban? Not a single Wikipedian was ever given a year ban when they were NOT in a flame war.

2. I am not involved in any revert wars or edit wars. So why the ban? Not a single Misplaced Pages was ever given a ban when they were not in revert for edit wars.

3. The supposed problems are in articles in which the articles HAVE ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED, long ago! So why the ban?

Not a single Wikipedian was ever given a year ban when parties amicably came to an issue. It seems that some Admins are enraged that our system actually worked, and parties peacefully worked out their differences. What kind of hateful people think that such a positive result is grounds for a year long ban?

4. I repeatedly take week-long (or longer) Wiki-breaks to let things cool down and allow

other people to have their say without any problem. So why the ban?

5. I have taken many contentious articles OFF of my Watchlist, and simply let others do what they want, rather then engage in multiple arguments. So why the ban?

6. I have asked for and successfully used mediation when necessary. So why the ban? The action to ban me was taken behind my back, without informing me, and proceeded based on false assumptions - and potentially deliberate lies.

I have e-mailed Jimbo Wales and others about this very issue previously; they were all unable to come up with even a single instance of this ever happening. Ever. The entire ban is a violation of Misplaced Pages policy, and we should not allow four people with a vendetta to wreck our whole system.

We are unfortunately dealing with a small number of people abusing their Admin power out of some sort of personal vendetta. If it happens to one person, it will happen to others. What steps should we take next to initiate disciplinary action against them for these serious violations?

Robert

If you were an admin, your previous behavior would, I hope, lead to you losing your administrator privileges (as it should with other rogue admins like Jayjg). But as a simple user, a years ban seems excessive and unjust. - XED.talk 21:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Danny and various other users have protested to the arbcomm for this very lengthy and quite unnecessary ban. While arguments on Judaism articles often became heated in a truly Talmudic way, there was never flaming in the full sense of the word, nor did Robert revert and neither did he troll in any particular way. The only way to overturn the Arbcom ruling is by appealing to the present arbcom (the members of which are quite sensible) and emailing Jimbo again if necessary. JFW | T@lk 21:18, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Is this the right place to do so? Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration

JFW, you must be an alien from a parallel universe. --Zero 22:03, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

First me, and now I see personal attacks against JFW? Pathetic. RK 22:54, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

1) I'd advise you to put it here instead Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration

2) Calling someone an alien from parallel universe is a flowery way of saying "your preception of events is radically different from mine". I very much doubt that Zero meant it as an attack. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 23:01, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee case opening

The Arbitration Committe has decided to hear your appeal. Please present any formal evidence at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/RK 2/Evidence. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 01:07, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

Robert you state above that "The supposed problems are in articles in which the articles HAVE ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED, long ago!". Can you provide any evidence to back that claim up? Maybe a talk page where you have come to an amicable compromise with other editors who you disagree with?

Of course: Please see the list of diffs I added on the RFA page, and the articles they point to. On a related note, I call your attention to the six points I made on the Request for Arbitration page. I made these points four months ago, and I now make them again - and so far not a single person has disagreed with them. No one has been unable to come up with a single example of anyone getting a significant ban in this situation. Not a single person. That alone speaks volumes! RK

Thanks for adding the diffs, we will take a look at them. But I am confused on one point. You said above to Zero that "Zero, what the hell are you talking about? I have never heard of any such ban, ever." and now you are saying to me that you made these points 4 months ago. So it would appear that you were aware of the ban asfter all?

No, people still miss my point. I was aware of a four month ban. Not a year-long ban. RK 18:34, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

In the original RFAr there is evidence of you having called people antisemites or other nasty names, called for people to be banned, accused people of being liars and vandals. Have you apologised to any of these people?

Are you under the impression that I alone made remarks about this? Some of the people that I worried about being anti-Semites were identified as making anti-Semitic edits by others as well. Yet none of the others who had similar complaints were banned. Some of the people I criticised openly wrote Nazi propaganda, and I had presented significant amounts of proof for this. In fact, one of these people eventually claimed that we was a Nazi (John Goode, Mr. Natural Health), and one eventually made a public death threat against me (EntmootsOfTrolls.) Contrary to what you may have heard, many of those people were recognized as a problem by many people, not just me, and some were banned. Obviously, I take it, you are not referring to these cases. You would not allow open Nazi statements, actual vandalism, or death threats.

I am not under any impression in particular at the moment. I am currently going through the evidence. it's just that if you have apologised to anyone at any time for a remark made in the heat of the moment it would sensible to put a link on the evidence page so that everyone can easily see it.

Therefore, you are saying that there is someone not in this above group that I was not getting along with (four months ago) and made ad homenim attacks, calling them an anti-Semite or vandals, etc.? If so, I am happy to apologize. RK 20:44, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

You missunderstand me. I am not trying to prompt you to apologise to anyone. It's just that if you have done so, then it will look good on the evidence page.

What I'm looking for is evidence that you have learned your lesson and are a reformed character. If you can provide any please stick it on the evidence page. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 18:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think you conflating two different claims. One claim is that I am a bad person who must not be allowed on Misplaced Pages. I obviously disagree, and I cannot say "Yes, I was hateful, but now I am good". We should not make someone grovel in order to be allowed to edit.

I completely agree.

The (first) claim that was the reason I was given a four month ban, which is now officially over. However, there was a second claim and a second ban: This second claim was that I refused to work with others on the Judaism articles, and that I engaged in non-stop edit warson Judaism articles. The result was that the old Admin Committee barred me for a year from any editing on Judaism-related articles. The problem, of course, is that the claims were not true. Someone took old arguments that had long since been resolved, and falsely presented them as current arguments that could not be resolved. I was shocked to see such tactics.

We are looking into this, any evidence that you can dig up showing that the arguments were resolved prior to the arbitration case starting will be of great help.

You do not need to take my word for it; please see for yourself. Long before the four-month ban occured, I had already had a history of working with many others on all of the Judaism articles, via the WikiProject on Judaism. This effort was (and is) very successful. In fact, every time I created an article I invite others to work on it, which is the opposite of what some people claim. And as you can see, JayJG, JFWolff, Josiah and many others all worked together with me to make some high quality articles. The people doing the editing on these articles don't understand the incredibly severe year-long ban. We ended up working well together for many months...and I was nevertheless banned after doing everything that was asked of me, and producing a high-level of Wiki-cooperation. Please see the diffs I noted on the RFA page for specific examples. RK 20:44, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

It's great that you invite people to work on articles with you. What would be even better though is if you could provide us with examples of you and another user initially disagreeing with one another over something and through reasonable discussion coming to an acceptable NPOV solution where everyone is reasonably happy that the article is worded ok. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:51, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fine by me, start with the article on Judaism and Maimonides. There were serious NPOV and factual disagreements on these, with comments from all parties, yet we came to agreements. RK 18:34, Feb 17, 2005 (UTC)

OK I'll take a look. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 07:59, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The business

RK, you've been away from Misplaced Pages too long. You're forgetting to sign your talk page comments!

Seriously, I'd love to give evidence in your ArbComm case, but most of my attempts to have your ban shortened were conducted with Danny over IRC. This is not admissible as evidence, I fear. Nonetheless, I think Zero0000 is being ridiculous. I have never heard of Dissident. Who is he/she?

As for Chabad Lubavitch, I have responded on the talk page. My argument is that none of them are open to discussion, so we'll just keep on reverting until we're blue in the face. I do not believe the Rebbe will come back. JFW | T@lk 22:15, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

re: Abuse by Stirling Newbury

Agreed w.r.t. the RFC. The guy has some sort of point as far as citing sources, but he's completely failing to make it in any sane manner or discuss what exactly he objects to, and I don't have the patience to deal with him without more people capable of actual conversation around. -- nknight 00:31, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Evidently my watchlist was lying to me before I posted this. 172 protecting the page has at least caused Stirling to speak more than a sentence at a time. -- nknight 00:36, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration Committee injunction

The injunction in your case has been enacted; the ban on your editing of Judaism-related articles has been temporarily stayed pending the outcome of the case. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 04:22, 2005 Feb 17 (UTC)

Chabad

Hi RK, I'm having a good discussion with User:Truthaboutchabad on Talk:Chabad Lubavitch. He postulates that the "Rebbe = God" issue is the result of a misunderstanding, and has kindly posted Media:Atzmus.pdf, which contains (Hebrew) quotes that are meant to prove that all Hasidim see a degree of Godly revelation in their Rebbes. Could you review the discussion? Perhaps you can square this with things you have read on the messaging boards. JFW | T@lk 16:48, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I see that the discusssion on chabad has come to a standstill you mentioned three points which I tried responding to, and I would like to know your current thoughts on it. By the way I switched my name from User:Truthaboutchabad to User:Eliezer--Eliezer 02:13, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I will reply, but probably tomorrow. I have just spent an hour and a half on Misplaced Pages, and my family duties await me!

Jewish mythology

I am going out of town and won't have time for the next few days. Coincidentally, I am reading a book by Jeffrey Rubenstein (no relation) on Rabbinic stories. I think on myth/folklore we should follow established scholarship, but I just don't know that scholarship. I agree with your assessment of the article, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:08, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ma Tovu

Can you give me your comments on Ma Tovu? I created the article a few days ago and several editors have improved on it since then; I'd like to have your input. Neutrality 04:22, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Offensive Nazi image

RK: Please see Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion#March 31 for vote on offensive Nazi propaganda "image" Image:MoneyJews.jpg Thank you. IZAK 09:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Done. At first I was very offended by the image, but I think that it is important that our article on anti-Semitism offer a few examples of classic European anti-Semitic cartoons, as long as they are described as such. The website of the Anti-Defamation League has a similar gallary of modern day anti-Semitic cartoons that are being published in the Arab press. 15:38, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Halakhic-Jews-Only has a shot across his bow, too

I only said one thing to User:Halakhic-Jews-Only: "Praised be Hashem, Monarch of the Universe (switches to English from Hebrew, as I know English better) for Reform Judaism, and Amen to that." Rickyrab 21:30, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC) And I meant it, too.

Offensive anti-Israel image for deletion

RK, please see Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion#April 1 to delete Image:Shark Palestine Caricature.jpg This highly offensive anti-Israel "caricature" spoofing Jaws that depicts the POV that Israel is the the aggressive "shark" and that the Palestinians are poor little innocent "victims". This is raw pro-Arab propaganda and unfortunately fits the pattern of User:AladdinSE's insertion of the offensive Image:MoneyJews.jpg taken from the Nazis. Sure looks like it's becoming a "pattern of hate" to me. Thank you. IZAK 07:41, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Edit war on NOI article

My interest in this article is stated at the top of the Talk:Nation of Islam page. In that spirit, I have reviewed the edit war going on the Nation of Islam article. I believe that you have documented the items factually and that they are presented in just about as close to a NPOV as you can get on such a controversial subject. I have left a message on User:Fireboy's Talk page as well as a much longer comment on the page Talk:Nation of Islam. Please be sure to be extra careful to cite your sources and avoid deleting the other writer's work (which is of course what he has apparently been doing). We'll see where all this goes. If you are getting any "threats" beyond what I can read in edit comments, or wish to leave me communication, feel free to leave work at User:Vaoverland.

Threats

I want to clarify something. In the message you left on my talk page, if I am reading it correctly, are you saying that you feel that I have threatend you? Vaoverland 17:41, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

No, no! I re-wrote something that I originally wrote to Firebug, and mistakenly didn't rephrase some sentences. I have since rewritten my note. Please check my updated note on your Talk page! Sorry about that. RK 17:46, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Whew! To the best of my knowledge, I have never threatened anyone on WP, nor do I ever intend to. My involvement with the NOI article was almost accidental, and I am not very up on the facts themselves. Regarding threats, I think that you need to retain a record of anything you feel someone should be held accountable for. I will talk witha couple of other admins and get some advise on how this situation could be resolved, or at least, kept from escalating into personal attacks. Mark in Richmond. Vaoverland 18:00, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Protest method of editing, then proposing deletion

You do not appear to have learned anything from your time away. Editing articles and then proposing to delete them if you cannot steer them your own way is not ethical behaviour. If you edited them, then, that is a sign that you agree that they should exist, is it not? Before proposing any deletions, have a look in the page history and you'll find a very reasonable version as with simple view of ethics and morals - which has now been restored to a balanced version. If it was you editing it anonymously to do damage, then proposing a Misplaced Pages:ad hominem delete, shame on you. Read m:Young Jacobins for some reasoning as to why this is not a good strategy for an encyclopedia.

People find it difficult to work with you more because of your unethical editing and carping and paraphrasing of others, than because of your idiosyncratic views. Please do attempt to understand that others are doing you a favour by pointing out these behaviours to you as above.

Arbitration case - final decision

A decision has been reached in the arbitration case relating to you. Remedy #2 of the previous Arbitration case is hereby revoked and replaced with a revert limitation and personal attack parole for the same period. Personal attacks on Wikimedia mailing lists are included in the personal attack parole. Please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/RK 2#Final decision for further details and the full decision. -- sannse (talk) 22:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Understood and accepted. Thanks for taking the time. RK 12:05, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-globalization and Anti-Semitism

You might be interested in Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Anti-globalization and Anti-Semitism. Jayjg 17:33, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Welcome back

Welcome back. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 21:05, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

EntmootsOfTrolls

I'm sorry RK, I don't have any insightful solutions to this problem. EntmootsOfTrolls is banned, absolutely and (excepting a surprise decision by Jimbo) irrevocably. As you know, the problem is purely a technical one of keeping him off the site. At the moment, all we can do is revert him, block him, and refuse to respond to him. Any articles that are clearly by him can be deleted. This applies to any sockpuppet of his we find (with due care to identify these accurately of course). If at any time this conflicts with your revert limitation, then I would suggest a note on WP:AN to ask for help in reverting. Apologies for the slow response to your message -- sannse (talk) 17:31, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

RK, I am pursuing this matter through various channels. Please let me know if I can help with anything specific. I can appreciate the fact that you are following the rules and he isn't. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 01:41, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)