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Revision as of 22:46, 25 June 2024

This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Canada Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Indigenous peoples of North America Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Native Americans, Indigenous peoples in Canada, and related indigenous peoples of North America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indigenous peoples of North AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaTemplate:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaIndigenous peoples of North America Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Catholicism Mid‑importance 2021 Canadian church burnings is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, an attempt to better organize and improve the quality of information in articles related to the Catholic Church. For more information, visit the project page.CatholicismWikipedia:WikiProject CatholicismTemplate:WikiProject CatholicismCatholicism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Catholicism task list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : see Draft articles Assess : see Category:Unassessed Catholicism articles; Category:Unknown-importance Catholicism articles Cleanup : Blessed Virgin Mary (see the talk page) Collaborate : Invitation template needed, see Category:WikiProject invitation templates Copyedit : Cuthbert Tunstall Expand : Angelus; Roman Catholicism in Kosovo; Bishop Adolph John Paschang; Cum sæpe accidere; Altar Society; American Board of Catholic Missions; Bernard Häring NPOV : Americanism (heresy); Ensoulment Photo : see Category:Misplaced Pages requested photographs of Catholicism Stubs : see Category:Stub-Class Catholicism articles; Category:Catholic Church stubs Update : Peer review; John Aloysius Maguire Verify : Archdiocese of Glasgow; Archbishop of Westminster; Bishop; Saint Mungo; Sanctification; Westminster Cathedral Other : Watch recent changes for Catholicism articles

Scope of this event and number of incidents.

The citation for the first sentence of this article, "A series of vandalizations, church arsons, and suspicious fires in June and July 2021 desecrated, damaged, or destroyed 68 Christian churches in Canada." now leads to a 404 error on the True North website.

I gave the title of the original cited article a web search, "A Map of Every Church Burnt or Vandalized Since the Residential School Announcments", to see if it had just been moved and it appears that article was updated with additional occurrences. The title is now "UPDATE: A map of the 83 churches that have been vandalized or burned since the residential schools announcement"

I was scanning through the article and it caught my eye that at least some of the occurrences are from 2023. The title of this wiki article is "2021 Canadian church burnings" and the date in the info box is given as "21 June – 8 July 2021"

Also, while virtually all the occurrences in the True North article properly cite news articles and web pages, a good portion of the linked articles don't reference any connection to the "probable discovery of over 1,000 unmarked graves at Canadian Indian residential school sites." that is mentioned in the wiki article.

I went through every occurrence of "arsoned or burned" and "vandalized" listed on the updated True North article and this is what I found:

10 of the 35 listed "arsoned or burned" occurrences linked to articles that did not mention any connection to the probable discovery of unmarked graves.

18 of the 35 listed "arsoned or burned" occurrences did not occur between 21 June – 8 July 2021.

12 of the 48 listed "vandalism" occurrences linked to articles that did not mention any connection to the probable discovery of unmarked graves.

26 of the 48 listed "vandalism" occurrences did not occur between 21 June – 8 July 2021.

1 of the listed "vandalism" occurrences was an altercation with no vandalism.

1 of the listed "arsoned or burned" occurrences is from April 4, 2021, before the reports emerged in May 2021 of probable the unmarked graves.

1 of the listed "vandalism" occurrences is from April 18, 2021, before the reports emerged in May 2021 of probable the unmarked graves.

I was going to just update the link for the citation and update the number of occurrences, but it doesn't appear that the number is correct, based both on the nature of the events included and the timeframe of the events.

So my question is, what would a reasonable timeframe for events related to this article be? 21 June – 8 July 2021 seems too short as there are events that occurred later into July and earlier into June that are related, even some into August and Sept.

For that matter, should a definitive number even be listed, if the article cited for that number includes 22 occurrences that are not related.

Perhaps there should be a table added that lists each of the occurrences?

I will await others input before I make any edits.

Bussche (talk) 18:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bussche: Thank you for your interest in improving the page. If possible, I would encourage you to seek sourcing that comes from an entity other than True North, as they are a partisan political outlet. English Misplaced Pages doesn't appear to have a standard for dealing with True North as a source, but right-wing political news outlets have a habit of being deprecated as sources (I think their coverage here is reliable, but others might think differently). In order to ensure any improvements you make survive longterm, sourcing from more mainstream news outlets (like the CBC) or government publications/announcements helps. Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bussche Thank you for going through the sources in such detail! The article as it currently stands mentions fires "of all causes", and I'm curious if the number listed is counting confirmed natural causes under "all", eg the June 30, 2021 wildfire that damaged hundreds of buildings in Lytton BC including a church. That fire falls under the time frame, but it would obviously be misleading to count that fire in this article without explicit clarification. Elfangor9 (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@Elfangor9 and Bussche: I asked the same question and apparently it is "bizarre" to think that "stuff burns all the time in BC". By the way I volunteered to help refugees from the Lytton fire and followed it very closely. That fire was started by a train.That is general knowledge but might be hard to source. The people who saw the train on fire were scattered. But apparently Lytton is confident that the fire started at the tracks not at the church. But that is just what several people from Lytton told me; I do not have a source. But the investivation did not attempt to contact any residents either And yes, that fire was right in that period 15:20, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

the United States is not in Canada

The section specifically says there are ties to increased vandalism in Portland. Npthing about those fires is Canadian. If you want to write about them start another article or rename this one Elinruby (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Per COMMONNAME, the relatively few fires in the US that were tied to the Canadian fires can easily fall under this broader heading. There is no basis for removing that information (which reliable sources tied to the Canadian incidents), and continued coverage since 2021 has focused largely on the Canadian incidents. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

post your evidence Elinruby (talk) 15:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Catholic News Agency is an RS, and the National Catholic Reporter (which follows standard editorial practices and is wholly independent from the church) also covered the subject. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Does anybody say they are RS besides you? Elinruby (talk) 16:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Does anybody but you say that there is any link at all between the fire in Portland and what happened in Kamloops? Elinruby (talk) 16:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there any evidence at all that anyone in Portland can find Kamloops on a map even? Elinruby (talk) 16:19, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

What's with the BATTLEGROUND? Please stick to the content. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Those are serious questions about content. I would like an answer to them. YOU wanted to discuss. Elinruby (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Per the most recent discussion at RSN, there are serious concerns about the Catholic News Agency. I also generally wouldn't trust anything from a .org unless there's broad support for it at RSN. If we're to report that vandalism of U.S. churches is connected to vandalism of Canadian churches, I think we'll need reliable, secondary, independent sources. Woodroar (talk) 16:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

You're referencing a discussion that only came to a conclusion about a different subsidiary of the same organization. CNA follows editorial standards, Catholic Culture did not. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion touched on CNA as well. Their About page reads like an advocacy organization, which makes sense as they're "A service of EWTN News". As I mentioned above, I would like to see independent and unquestionably reliable sources make this connection. Woodroar (talk) 17:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I could not find a retraction or editorial policy at 'National Catholic Reporter Elinruby (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Article now at Neutral Point of View noticeboard

courtesy notice Elinruby (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

RSN is not a first step. You also are edit-warring to enforce your BOLD changes. I recommend slowing down. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

• This has been copiously discussed at Canadian Indian residential school gravesites already
• I question whether the Catholic Standard is a BESTSOURCE for this material
• Portland is still not in Canada
• These fires were probably not set by Canadians
• I need you to explain to me in what way that fire in Portland is "Canadian"

WP:ONUS is on you Elinruby (talk) 16:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

PS I am also not edit-warring. Please look up the definition of that, and strike your untrue aspersions above. Correct the noticeboard while you are at it. Elinruby (talk) 16:13, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, that's edit warring. 3RR is a limit, not an absolute. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to report my two reverts at the edit warring noticeboard and let me know how that turns out. Tellng you you are wrong is not edit warring. Nor is it a personal attack, btw. Do you want to discuss the article or not? Elinruby (talk)

It's been two hours since you complained I wasn't discussing whether Portland is Canadian, and I don't see a rationale. I think I has given enough of my attention for now to the proposition that a fire in Portland is "Canadian". Let's see what other people say. I will check back in later, I have stuff to do. Elinruby (talk) 17:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

crickets Elinruby (talk) 22:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The Pillar

Getting a 404 error on this source Elinruby (talk) 17:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Western Standard as a source for Canadian residential schools

there is a thread at RSN with the above title. Last I look I looked the consensus was LOL. Therefore removing, but here is the text in case another source can be found Another Catholic church in Peace River suffered minor damage on July 3; the RCMP confirmed the cause was arson.

References

1. Naylor, Dave (July 9, 2021). "Another Catholic church set alight in Alberta". Western Standard. Retrieved July 12, 2021.

Elinruby (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC))

Aleteia

Never heard of it. Need someone to explain to me how it is RS. The link does not work in my browser, but that may be my browser. Elinruby (talk) 17:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

See Aleteia

Their site says Aleteia (aleteia.org) is an online publication distributed in five languages (English, French, Spanish, Polish and Slovenian). അദ്വൈതൻ (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

A .org domain and the publisher is the "Foundation for Evangelization through the Media". Someone really needs to demonstrate how this is reliable before we should be using it. Woodroar (talk) 21:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Three year old tweet

Is this DUE? Elinruby (talk) 17:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Georgia Strait

Is this RS for this topic? Elinruby (talk) 17:35, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

True North

I have started a discussion at RSN about using this source at this article. Elinruby (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Synth

Why does this article include the Coptic Church burned down by a mentally ill woman? Elinruby (talk) 20:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, the section itself states it is not connected. I don't see why it should be included. The article is about some spate of specifically targeted arson events, driven by some specific motive. It isn't an article about "every church burned down during this time frame". Whether it was a copycat event, inspired by the perception of other churches being burned down etc might be logical to deduce, but that would constitute original research and/or synthesis. I will remove it Lostsandwich (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

I am uncertain that the targeting even existed. It is possible but as the article says, speculation. At from three years out with no followup. If when the article is updated somebody has been found guilty and they did it because of the graves in Kamloops, there might be a basis for the article. But this is not that.Afaict this Coptic church was included because somebody went to jail. Elinruby (talk) 03:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

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