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Is football player contract expires means still registered in a football club?

Most of the UK football contract ends in 30 June. I am trying to remove any club information of the player who is out of contract. But I was informed that out-of-contract player doesn't mean he leaves the club (similar to a man is alive if there is no proof that he is dead), and he is still within the club. I would like to know if it is true? Are there any example? Thanks a lot. Winston (talk) 19:27, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I know nothing about that topic but superficially it would seem that mass removal of players from clubs at 30 June each year would be disruptive. Articles should not need that kind of accuracy. If necessary, add a sentence to the effect that contracts expire at a certain time and there is a period of uncertainty. Johnuniq (talk) 02:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

But do I need to provide a reliable source to update the free agent status (removing the club) (e.g. Cody Drameh)? But my edit got reverted because the admin think my edit is unsourced. I personally think that free agent after contract expiration is automatic (just like age, it could automatically count). And reverting my edit (i.e. saying the player is still in the club) need a source to say that there is a new contract between two parties. Winston (talk) 02:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like original research to me. Do not describe any player as a free agent without a reliable source saying they are. I guess you can say that a player's contract expired on such-and-such a date, if you cite a reliable source for that. Whether or not a player's contract is renewed is also subject to being supported by a reliable source. Slow down, this is an encyclopedia, and we do not get ahead of the published news. Donald Albury 13:47, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@Donald Albury I think I understand your point of view. May I explain why I couldn't agree with you

According to free agent in wiki: In professional association football, a free agent is either a player that has been released by a professional association football club and now is no longer affiliated with any league, or a player whose contract with their current club has expired and is thus free to join any other club under the terms of the Bosman ruling. As two sentences is linked with or, so the player is a free agent if any one of the two condition is met. And thus the player is a free agent when there is no evidence of a contract.

Therefore

1. The player is automatically a free agent when the current contract expire

2. The player with the club doesn't infer that the player is associated with the club in any employer-employee means. The player can sign with other clubs even he is with one club. To me the player is a free agent rather than belong to a club.

3. To keep the player in the club officially (not just training in the training ground), a contract is needed. And thus I think without a reliable source (evidence of the a new contract), it would sounds like original research to me that the player is associate with a football club professionally. Winston (talk) 01:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman Please feel free to add your comment here Winston (talk) 08:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, given your dispute was with me, I am appalled that it has taken you 3 days to notify me about this discussion.

Secondly, in the absence of a reliable source, we do not edit, especially about living people. In the Cody Drameh example, he was not on the club's official list of released players. There was no source presented by you saying he left the club (until I found one). GiantSnowman 17:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman First of all I don't think this is a dispute with you. I think this is more than how player under a club is defined. Because if the definition is not clarified there will be more edit fight and I think it would be beneficial for more wikipedian to discussed together:

1. Is player out of contract equals to free agent? I found the part that is related to free agent in wiki states that a player whose contract with their current club has expired and is thus free to join any other club under the terms of the Bosman ruling is defined as free agent. So latter statement states a player, even there is evidence of training with the club, without the evidence of contract with the club is considered free agent.

2. What is the Current team under Infobox football biography template means? The document said The club for which the player currently plays, or is employed by. If the player now works in a non-playing role at the club, add this after the club in brackets. For retired players and free agents not currently employed by any club or federation, leave blank. So if a player is a free agent, the Current team section should be blank. And it seems to me that player without evidence of employment should leave black. In my own personal view, it should leave blank until there are evidence that the player is not a free agent.

3. When you say in the absence of a reliable source, we do not edit. I would say we should edit based on the known reliable source. What is the known reliable source is the expired contract. Based on (1) the player is a free agent and (2) leave the Current team blank.

4. When you say no source presented by you saying he left the club. By referring (2) if current team means the club for which the player currently plays, or is employed by, then I think no evidence of left the club could not satisfy the definition of current club because no evidence of leaving the club would not imply the player currently play (or eligible to play) or employed.

Please feel free to comment Winston (talk) 01:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, all content in Misplaced Pages must be verifiable from reliable sources. Misplaced Pages itself is not a reliable source, so nothing that is stated in Free agent is sufficient by itself to support a claim elsewhere in Misplaced Pages. Anything that is entered in a infobox must also be verifiable from reliable sources. Any attempt to say that a player is a free agent without a reliable source saying so is original research. A consequence of the verifiability policy is that we sometimes have to leave things unsaid because we have not yet found a reliable source that supports it. Donald Albury 12:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

But I don't understand keeping the player within the club without a reliable source is not considered as original research? Is the player retaining in the club can be testified under verifiability policy?

I understand your view on the policy but I am not sure if I understand that how keeping the player within a club without a reliable source can take precedence? Could you elaborate more on that? Also could you add more comment on the free agent definition?

Also when we say a player is under a club, normally we would refer to the player signing a contract with the club. But it seems to me that the contract end date within the reliable source is being ignored. Winston (talk) 02:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

When you talk about the reliable source, Michael Cooper never say that he is 24 years old, also offical page his age is never mentioned. Thus there is no reliable source of the player is 24 year old. Assuming the age of 24 based on his date of birth is not reliable, is unsourced (the club info never mention Michael Cooper is 24 year old).

I think it is worth discussing why there is no source needed while inferring age but not player is officially unattached after contract expiry? Winston (talk) 10:16, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Winstonhyypia Michael Cooper's date of birth is reliably sourced (see the ref linked in the infobox). An algorithm calculates his current age (as anyone numerate could do, each day). That is reliable. PamD 15:03, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@PamD Only the date of birth is reliably source but not the age (he never mention his age, the club info also didn't show his age). I would like to understand why calculating age based on DOB is allowed while a free agent after contract expiry require source. To me both are inferred from reliable source (age is from date of birth and free agent status is from the last known contract expiry). Winston (talk) 22:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Anyone knowing the date of a person's birth (which in this case we know from a reliable source), can calculate that person's age on the current date. Such calculations do not need a source, per Misplaced Pages:No original research#Routine calculations. Please stop this. What you are doing appears to be wikilawyering. Donald Albury 00:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Donald Albury Then I don't understand why the player is considered out of contract when there is no reliable source of having a new contract is considered as original research? I really believe it is a consensus player is out of contract is a free agent also defined in free agent). Winston (talk) 03:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Donald Albury Could you elaborate more on how my analogy appears to be wikilawyering? When I edit based on evidence (expired contract) and then people ask for evidence (which the expired contract is the evidence of the end of the employer-employee relationship). The expired contract is already an evidence of the player had a employer-employee relationship. Could you help me understand how employer-employee relationship ended at contract expire is considered original research? How would that considered as assumption? How would keeping the player in the club is correct? Winston (talk) 04:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Donald Albury Also there is Fixed-Term Contract saying a fixed-term contract can also be used for the completion of a specific task and the contract will be terminated automatically upon completion of the task. And I think it is the player contract works in this way.

I stated everything based on the free agent, fixed-term contract. I think the argument would be more constructive it is based on wiki policy. When you asked for evidence of player not including in the squad, I already mentioned that the nature of the fixed term contract and definition of free agent would be suffice to say that the player need a contract to keep the employer-employee relationship. This is not assumption this is automatic (unless there is a reliable source saying the player sign a new contract). Winston (talk) 04:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@Donald Albury I think the analogy of asking evidence of age based on reliable source of DOB is very similar to the asking evidence of player is free agent based on reliable source of last known contract. In my view both are automatic. Winston (talk) 04:36, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I am not a sports lawyer, but I know that having a contract and registration are different, although thay may overlap enormously in the case of professional players, especially since Bosman. I don't know what effects Brexit has had on British clubs. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger In the english FA website there is FA NFAR Standard Tripartite Representation Agreement under representation agreements. Please feel free to check the SERVICES section. Winston (talk) 02:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger I checked the FA website and there is FA Handbook, under Rules of The Association that provide more information. Winston (talk) 04:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I would strongly advise against any mass removal based on an assumption. I think in a high proportion of cases contracts are renewed, usually without much publicity, except for a few "stars". There is a tremendous amount of work involved in changing and then changing back - are you sure you are up to it? Johnbod (talk) 17:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

And does it matter? The English professional leagues finish in May and start again in August, at which time there are usually plenty of sources saying who plays where. This is an encyclopedia, not a breaking news site, so includes some content that may be outdated for a couple of months. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:17, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree this is not a breaking news site but should the article reflect the condition based on the reliable source (which in my own perspective the most reliable source is the previous contract)? Winston (talk) 03:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It matter because I was warned by the admin saying that there is lack of evidence of player leaving the club. He would block me from editing. But I think the edit I made is based on the evidence of a contract (I quoted the free agent which said the player is automatically a free agent while contract expire. I also quoted fixed time contract which said the employer-employee relationship terminate automatically after contract expire). In my point of view evidence is needed to conclude that the player is having an employer-employee relationship instead. Winston (talk) 04:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I've notified Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Football in the hope that this discussion may benefit from the participation of informed editors and because it has the potential to affect many articles of interest to that project. I'm a little surprised this discussion was opened here and not there. NebY (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a prime example of Misplaced Pages not needing to be updated quite so quickly. It should be expected that team rosters will be in flux between seasons, and that our articles can not be updated until new contracts/rosters are announced. Blueboar (talk) 17:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It really depends on the nature of Misplaced Pages. Should the article keep updated to represent the moving status? Is other editor allowed to update the wiki article based on the updated information based on reliable source? Winston (talk) 18:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from reading the above you do not have "updated information". You have old information concerning the end date in an old contract, not updated information about whether anything has replaced it or any termination clause has been acted upon, plus your deductions. You've focused on contracts rather than registration, but employment law regarding contracts is not simple - for example, a contract can exist even without a written statement of terms. Football's registration systems include professional and amateur players, so they won't depend on employment contracts or persistence of paid work between seasons. More generally, absence of information is not evidence of absence; much happens without being reported in the press. Happily, Misplaced Pages policy protects us from presenting as fact deductions based on diverse scraps of information such as those you mention above. If you have a reliable source saying that a footballer's affiliation has changed, you can change the article, but if all you have is information that their contract was due to end by now, it's a breach of WP:No original research to remove their sourced affiliation or insert a claim that they're now a free agent. NebY (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@NebY I think this is the result of lack of information in either side of the argument that both side agrees.

1. When you say I don't have the "updated information". I want to state the fact that everyone agree here that there is no reliable source of player signing a new contract with the club. So in both ways (free agent vs still in the club) is not known. That's why I bring up this discussion. By the definition of free agent the player out of contract is a free agent.

2. I couldn't agree that the term old contract because it is the last known reliable source. I would rather name it as the latest contract with reliable source (there is no newer reliable source saying there is a new contract with the player).

3. I didn't say I agree contract could be more complicated than that. But if you say "the player could sign a contract with the club" without evidence that wouldn't be convincing.

4. May I use England Football as an example, based on REGISTRATION OF PLAYERS section of Standardized Rules of FA Handbook 2023-24, there is section 6.1.2 states that a Player’s registration with a Club as a Contract Player shall continue until the earlier of the date upon which: (a) the contract between the Contract Player and the Club expires. This should be the linkage between registration and contract. Once the the registration end with the contract. This is written in the rulebook and it is not deduction.

5. I think it would be hard to prove that there is termination clause in the contract. I think if when you say the player could still in the club because there could be a termination clause without any reliable source. Would that be fact based? Winston (talk) 01:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't know there are talk page for football. Winston (talk) 18:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I think part of the problem in this discussion is that to my understanding Winstonhyypia is assuming that all the info they have is correct and not changing, and that any change is properly communicated. The issue is that a fair amount of players extend quietly or automatically via different triggers and clubs/media update about it late if at all (for e.g. David Williams played all of last season with Perth Glory but there was never an announcement of a contract extension, and there was something similar with Jake Brimmer a couple of seasons ago). It's usually dependent on the "star power" of the player as well as the club's level (in women's football it's really hard to track). --SuperJew (talk) 20:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

@SuperJew It would depends if we should update based on the last known reliable source (I would say contract). My approach is didn't assume any contract extension without reliable source, the admins are saying the the player is still in the club without any reliable source saying the player left the club. I think in both ways you can bring counter example to say it is wrong. Both way would be affected by lack of information. Sometime the club didn't announce the contract extension of the player. Sometime the club didn't announce the leave of the player.

But without any known reliable source, I think the best option is to say that the player is a free agent (based on the definition of free agent and also the definition of fixed term contract) and rather not saying the player is still attached to the club. Winston (talk) 01:06, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

@Winstonhyypia, do you actually have a source that says "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was not extended or renewed"?

Or do you just have a source that says "It will expire on this date in the future (unless it is extended or amended, of course)", and now that 'this date' has arrived, you're guessing that the original terms of the contract were still in force?

Are you even looking at a source with a specific date (e.g., 30 June 2024), or are you just looking at one that says "the 2023–2024 season" and guessing that the contract will expire at exactly 23:59 on 30 June?

A mere assumption is not sufficient for any of this. What if you're wrong? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:48, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

On the Cody Drameh example which kickstarted all this, there was a source saying 'we have offered the player a new contact', and then nothing further. Winston then assumed that, as the contract offer had not been accepted, the player had automatically left the club. I found a source confirming leaving the club a few days later. GiantSnowman 07:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman I think the key argument is "What is the status of the player if the latest contract is expired and there is no reliable source regarding of signing a new contract? Should the player automatically be a free agent?"

I already quoted Standardized Rules of FA Handbook (please check the link in the conversation above) that a player will no longer be registered to the club when there is no contract. In the same handbook it also mentioned that non-contract player applies to National League or below. Also inside the article free agent, a player is a defined as a free agent when the current contract expire.

I am writing here because the player would be automatically de-registered from the club when contract expire. Thus if the last expired contract is the latest reliable source then based on the definition of free agent, fixed-term contract and the FA rule, the player is a free agent. And it requires the evidence of a non-expiring contract to say that the player is registered under a club. I think it would be a good discussion to explain under the definitions above, saying a out-of-contract player a free agent is considered as original research. Winston (talk) 10:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing Most of the free agent could be found in transfermarkt. I would double check with the information online and make my edit.

I would like to clarify that my discussion is based on the fact that there is no reliable source about player signing new contract. Most all of the free agents listed in transfermarkt have no source say "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was not extended or renewed" or "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was extended or renewed". In both ways there is no reliable source. So things could go wrong in both ways. Also making an edit or not is making an assumption. The same question could be asked "do you actually have a source that says "His contract definitely expired yesterday, and we confirm that it was extended or renewed? What if you're wrong?". With the lack of information saying the player is staying and the player is leaving is a guess. But if we based on reliable source, the latest reliable source would be the expired contract. So what I am asking is, given the latest reliable source is the expired contract , should we say the player is a free agent when the contract is over? Winston (talk) 10:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Short answer: no, too soon to say anything. Blueboar (talk) 10:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Would you mind elaborate more on your reasoning? I think other people would like to understand why it is too soon to say he leave the club but it is not too soon to say that he is a free agent, by definition? Winston (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Have you considered the possibility that he has signed a contract, but no sources have reported it yet? IF that is the case, then he isn’t a free agent.

The fact is we don’t actually know his current status with the team. What we DO know is he was with the team last season. That is good enough for now… it is OK to leave the article as being “out of date” for a few months… until we DO actually know the player’s status for the next season.

Then there is the issue of simple practicality. The uncertainty of contract renewal likely affects dozens (if not hundreds) of players every year. It makes no sense to “update” all these articles to “Free Agent”… only to have to re-update them yet again a few weeks/months later when all these players either re-sign with their old team, sign with a new team, or are not picked up by any team. Allowing the article to remain “outdated” until we have more information is simply more practical. Blueboar (talk) 12:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I think there are possibility that he signed a contract or not. In both ways people can ask the same question. People can be asked to consider the possibility that he didn't sign a contract and is a free agent. Since both ways is possible I think the conclusion can't be made based on this approach. Also if Misplaced Pages article should base on reliable source then I think people would also ask your approach as no reliable source of a new contract is available. Thus I think it would be best to say the player is a free agent if there is no reliable source of a new contract (also satisfy the definition of free agent). I think it make more sense as this is the definition of free agent and fixed term contract. And I don't see what's wrong if the player is updated as a free agent, and then updated with the existing club a few days later (based on the reliable source of a new contract). If Misplaced Pages based on reliable source then I don't see why this approach doesn't align with Misplaced Pages rule. Winston (talk) 15:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

If it were just one player, fine… but I strongly suspect it is far more than just one. Having to update, and then immediately re-update, on potentially hundreds of articles… and do so every year… is just disruptive. ‘Nuff said. Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar If the wikipedia policy (reliable source) didn't apply to the article (also if the policy is not the discussion and the article should be based on reliable source.

1. When there are some editor comes in to make an edit, saying a player with expired contract as a free agent and remove his latest club info. By my understand on contract law, FA rule this edit should be allowed. Any revert of the club info (saying the player is still register under the club) requires evidence of contract extension because player registration above League 2 requires contract.

2. I started this discussion is because I am going to write down the points to discuss that the player is a free agent after contract expiry by definition not by original research. Winston (talk) 19:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I think you are missing my point. It may arguably be verifiable that players are free agents the second their contracts expire. But “Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion”. Sometimes it is better to wait for evolving situations to play out before we include it in our article. I think this is one of those situations. Be patient. Blueboar (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Until you have a specific, clearly reliable source in hand that WP:Directly supports the claim that the individual athlete has not signed a contract, then you cannot do this. Your understanding of contract law is not a reliable source. WP:You are not a reliable source.

Perhaps it will make more sense as a story:

• The previously announced contract expired on Monday.
• Unknown to you, also on Monday, the player signed a new contract.
• On Tuesday, you change the article to say the player is a free agent and not part of the team because the old contract expired on Monday (and you still don't know about the new contract).
• On Wednesday, the team announces that the player signed a contract and is still with the team.

Do you know what that means? It means that on Tuesday you were putting lies about a living person into the Misplaced Pages article.

Don't do that. Wait until we have real information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing I didn't say the expiry is based on my understanding. I already wrote in the above that

1. Based on definition of free agent, a player without a contract is a free agent by definition.

2. Based on the definition of fixed-term contract. The employer-employee relationship is will be terminated upon completion.

3. Based on FA Handbook (please check the link above), a player would no longer be registered from the club when contract expire.

In your example there are 2 things I would argue

1. "Unknown to you" - I think it should be unknown to public. Based on the reliable source definition then it is best to say the player is a free agent on Tuesday. Everyone should making wiki edit based on reliable source, right?

2. I couldn't agree that the editor is making a lie too if there is no public information regarding to the new contract. This is the conclusion based on reliable source. Winston (talk) 19:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

"Based on these definitions" is not the same as "based on a reliable source that WP:Directly supports the claim".

"Based on these definitions" is indirect support. If you want to make a positive statement ("As of Monday, he is a free agent"), then you must have a source that actually says this. You cannot have only a source that says "If nothing else changes, he will become a free agent on Monday two years in the future". That source does not directly support a claim that he really is a free agent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

In your example this is my understanding:

1. The player established employer-employee relationship for two years (it didn't have a support of player status after Monday). So the player is under the club until Monday (in normal terms). The source only Directly Support until Monday.

2. After Monday if there is no evidence of a new contract then by definition the player is a free agent. The source didn't have a Direct Support after Monday. Winston (talk) 20:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. After Monday, if there is no evidence of a new contract, then the player might be a free agent. However, the player could be already employed by a team. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

May I rewrite point number 2:

In order to use WP:Directly support to say that the player is still associated with the club, you need to provide a reliable source that a player sign a new contract with any club. Otherwise the player's status should be concluded as out of contract. Thus the player is a free agent (based on free agent definition).

If the problem is approaching using Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence then no conclusion could be made. And it could create an edit war (because other editor can say "the player could be a free agent" and make the edit). I think Misplaced Pages article should rely on the reliable source, and in this case when we make our discussion should we not guess (e.g. could/might) the status but instead conclude the player status following the rules provided by football association. Winston (talk) 13:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary, the policy at Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Burden states: The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution. The burden to provide reliable sourcing is on you if you want to change what the article says. Donald Albury 14:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

But I think I view this in a different perspective. At the very beginning a player is a free agent, then one editor comes in and wrote that player belongs to a club based on contract. Then another editor comes in reverting the previous editors edit based on the expiry of contract (the content in the reliable source no longer valid).

I would see the source (contract) of the first editor expires. And due to this reason the second editor comes in and revert the edit of the first editor because the edit couldn't pass Verifiability because the evidence expire. And it requires new contract to keep the player in the club. Winston (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I have read what you have said umpteen times and understand it. I'm sure the same goes for others. It's just that nobody agrees with you. Stop bludgeoning. Now. Phil Bridger (talk) 06:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

(Outdent) Something that hasn’t been established: WHY does our article need to note that a player is (technically and probably temporarily) a free agent? Why NOT just wait until the situation stabilizes and we know whether he has a new contract (and with which team)? Blueboar (talk) 20:12, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I start this discussion based on the principle of wiki. For example if an edit war is established, then how should the conflict be resolved. And my claim is if there is no evidence of a new contract the player is a free agent. So if some editor change the status to free agent (removing the player from the team) then it should take evidence for other editor to revert the edit by showing that a new contract is signed. I think that would be the best if an edit war is established.

Lastly I didn't mean to agree or disagree your approach but I am viewing this from conflict resolution perspective. Winston (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Rather than try to disentangle the errors in reasoning from the grammatical errors and factual errors in your response to me, far above, there's something more fundamentally worrying about it and all your responses here. It seems that you haven't actually read through Misplaced Pages:No original research, grasped the principles and how they apply to all of us including yourself, or seen the blunt statement in it,

Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.

Your desire to say things about football players that are not explicitly stated by sources is fundamentally contrary to Misplaced Pages policy.

Does this mean Misplaced Pages may be out of date? Yes, but that's fine. It's the most up-to-date encyclopedia ever, but not everything in it is up-to-the-minute and that is not our purpose. Our absolute reliance on reliable sources means that we're not at the cutting edge of scientific research or reporting the current status of every company either. We don't promise that, we don't assume our readers expect or demand that, and we don't compromise our fundamental principles to attempt or pretend that.

Lastly, an extraordinary number of editors have explained to you in many different ways that you should not, must not, edit our articles in the way you propose. It's time for you to listen, heed that and accept it. NebY (talk) 20:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

First of all multiple sources I use (in point form) point to the same conclusion, based on their definition. Also the source of FA I use is to say that player is deregistered from the club when the contract expire (the process saying that the player would no longer be registered). I am not combining the sources to state or imply a conclusion. Maybe my english is bad but multiple sources is not going to be used to make a conclusion. They are multiple references to say that the employer-employee relationship is broken when the contract expire.

There are lots of editor making Wiki edits every day. If there are people making the edit and if I need to revert his edit based on your suggestion, what is the grounds/where is the supporting policy that wikipedia empower me to revert the edit? Could you make an explanation more clearly so that I could follow? Throughout the discussion I am seeing concerns but I couldn't find there are policy that can strongly support the reverting the edit. Winston (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Is there an actual conflict needing resolution, or are you just curious about how we might handle a hypothetical conflict? Blueboar (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

For example my edit on Cody Drameh. I would like to understand why saying the player is a free agent violate wiki rule of no reliable source when the last known reliable source expire? And why saying the player is still with the club better follows wikipedia's reliable source policy? The mass edit (not by me) could be a result but this is already beyond the question itself. Winston (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, editing without a reliable source violates Misplaced Pages policies, as you have been repeatedly told. The fact you cannot understand that is growing increasingly concerning, as is your conduct here as highlighted by Phil Bridger. GiantSnowman 15:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

(After edit conflicts) Winston, rather than continually repeating the same point, it would be helpful if you stopped writing and tried to understand why people are disagreeing with you. See WP:Bludgeon. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:00, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Phil, I saw reply mostly on the concern (what if there are newer information in the future, then the edit you made would be wrong). I am explaining why the edit is showing the beauty of reliable source. I agree that some edit (e.g. removing the player from the club and then revert the edit later on) seems like a meaningless job but this is the best representation of the player at the moment people making edit (without any new reliable source of contract).

I didn't mean to make a mass edit but a reliable source of player is not attached to the club is needed when a player's contract expire doesn't seems right to me. Winston (talk) 21:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

About And my claim is if there is no evidence of a new contract the player is a free agent:

No. No evidence does not mean "the player is a free agent". No evidence means no evidence. Do not change an article until you have evidence.

Changing the article based on your own ideas about what has probably happened is a policy violation.

@Winstonhyypia, I want to be clear about this: The answer is no. The answer is always going to be no. If you think it would actually help you understand the rule better, then we can keep talking about it, but talking about the rule will not change the answer. The answer is no today, and the answer will be no tomorrow, and the answer will be no next year, and there is nothing you can say, no argument you can advance, no recommendation that you can make, that will actually change that answer. The answer is no.

Given that changing the rule is absolutely and totally hopeless, and understanding that you will never be able to convince us to change the rule, do you still need anything explained to you about the rule? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't ask for rules changing but I rather think there is a difference in the conclusion made based on the reliable source. I think I might mislead you but my question on the title already said Is football player contract expires means still registered in a football club. After further checking multiple wiki article and english FA website it seems that football player is deregistered with the club when contract expire.

I would like to understand the rational on the player is still associate with the club after contract expiry because it seems to me that the decision couldn't stand the WP:Reliable Source and WP:Verifiability principle. Winston (talk) 14:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Winstonhyypia: you have returned to editing navigation boxes about football club squads, including removing players from them, and articles about players, including removing squad navigation boxes, without accompanying edit summaries explaining your actions. Please can you (a) state clearly now on what basis you made those changes, and (b) assure us that your future editing about football (including articles and templates) will be in accordance with the consensus of editors expressed above and not according to the rationale you have expressed above or your determination of a player's contract status? It is now in question whether the community can trust you to edit about football appropriately. NebY (talk) 11:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The navigation boxes are updated are based on the first team page and it has nothing to do with the contract itself. May I use my edit on Villarreal CF as an example. You can check it easily as Official First Team page shows all the first team player they have. The source is already placed on the navigation box itself. And it has nothing to do with the rational that I expressed. I think this is the result you saw me edit without understanding how those football navigation box is referenced. That's why you didn't know how to verify my edit and ask this question.

Of those that is removed, some of them are due to contract expiry (e.g. Pepe Reina, Étienne Capoue, José Luis Morales, Alberto Moreno), I checked the article edit those people didn't have reliable source. I remove them from the navigation box because it is not listed as their first team player. Of coz you can argue that not listing those player as first team player doesn't mean the player is left. Please go and revert their edit one by one, go to their page and said they don't have a reliable source, and tell them how the community can trust you to edit about football appropriately. Please! Winston (talk) 15:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The onus is on you to explain your edits in the edit summary at the time you make them; I've left a formal message on your talk page.

Once again, can you assure us that your future editing about football will be in accordance with the consensus of editors expressed above and not according to the rationale you have expressed? NebY (talk) 17:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't ask this question because I have trouble making edits (and I personally seldom make article edit). I asked this question because the understanding because reliable source is not being applied the way I think it should be when it comes to something that could lead of the end of the term (contract expiry in this case). Til now I didn't get a convincing answer (by stating wikipedia policy) on treating reliable source has an end date and the day is over, why the reliable source is still "reliable" after the contract term is over?

Thanks for the reminder. I would add the edit notes in the future. As the update link is already provided in the football navigation boxes I think I would write "update" as the note, if other editor would find this meaningful.

Also, I didn't see any reverting edits on player that didn't provide reliable source of player leaving the club after contract expired (e.g. Pepe Reina, Étienne Capoue, José Luis Morales, Alberto Moreno), after you were informed. Although based on my understand the edit should not be reverted but I think it already violated your definition of editor consensus. Would those edit be reverted and editor be questioned soon? Winston (talk) 02:41, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually I am saying not because I would edit the article. It is because other wiki editor would do the edit. I think it would be more beneficial for you to comment the edit if you understand how the the football navigation box is sourced? What Reliable Source mean? How should we treat the source that has an expiry date? Winston (talk) 15:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Actually this also applies to @GiantSnowman too because my edit on removing the first team template on Cody Drameh is also based on the First Team page. I remove him because he is not longer listed as first team player. His is with the club or not is not related at all. Thus asking for evidence of player leaving the team mean you need to understand how that football navigation box works, where is the source and why the edit make sense. Winston (talk) 16:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Winston, I suggest you stop editing so recklessly, lest you end up being blocked for editing disruptively and against consensus. GiantSnowman 17:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

I give up. I have twice referred Winston to WP:bludgeon above but see that he is carrying on. If he does not stop my next edit to this discussion will be to call for some sort of ban or block. I am not calling for it now only because I don't have time to decide whether it should apply to this discussion, English football, football in general or to everything. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Do merger recommendations get monitored somehow?

I have just recommended that our article on the human epigenome be merged into the one on epigenomes in general. Does my having used {{merge to}} and {{merge from}} put that recommendation onto some list of outstanding merger proposals or otherwise alert anybody to its existence? Or does the recommendation’s fate depend on people’s watching those pages, or (worse) on their simply happening to notice the recommendation upon visiting either of the pages? PaulTanenbaum (talk) 14:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

If the articles have a WikiProject banner, and that WikiProject is subscribed to Misplaced Pages:Article alerts, it will show up in the article alert report for the project that is updated once a day. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Molecular Biology/Article alerts should include the epigenome merge proposal in about 12 hours.

And there is also Category:All articles to be merged, which is used to generate Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Merge/Article_alerts. Plantdrew (talk) 19:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks. PaulTanenbaum (talk) 19:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Have a technical problem or improvement in mind? Community Wishlist is now open!

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If you have some feedback or questions, please leave them on the project talk page. ––STei (WMF) (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Advice on a merger misstep

Re the merger I asked about here yesterday, when I created the {{merge to}} and {{merge from}}, I had not seen Misplaced Pages:Merging. Because of that and a lack of forethought on my part, I created the discussion in the talk page of the source article rather than that of the destination.

I now see that the destination article is a more sensible location, if only because, should the merger take place, then the now-stump (okay, redirect) source article would be a too-out-of-the-way (if not impossible) place for the historical record of the merger discussion. Darn!

A complicating factor is that the discussion has since been joined by another editor.

How—if at all—should I proceed to remedy my misstep? PaulTanenbaum (talk) 15:47, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@PaulTanenbaum, the first thing to do is not worry, because Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not a game of Mother, May I? If you make a misstep, it's okay.

The two usual things to do (yes, this happens often enough that there are usual things to do!) are:

1. Put a note on the 'other' talk page that links to the existing discussion, and proceed as if everything is 100% normal, or
2. Cut/paste the entire existing discussion to the 'correct' talk page, and set things up as if you had done everything perfectly from the first moment.

If you choose the first approach, please make sure that the "(discuss)" links in the mergeto/from templates are working (on both 'to' and 'from' pages).

If you choose the second approach, I suggest that you tell the first commenter (e.g., on their User_talk: page) why you moved the discussion and give them a link to its new location. Also leave a note on the 'incorrect' talk page that points to the discussion's new location.

Finally, if you'd like to avoid this problem in the future, go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets-gadget-section-browsing and enable Twinkle. Then, in the future, you can use the TW menu > Tag > merge dialog box to make sure that everything automatically goes in the ordinary place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:46, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Yizhi Jane Tao

• Yizhi Jane Tao (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There's someone who have been vandalising this entry for more than a year, ranging from unjustifiably deleting important information to sharing irrelevant rumours about the biographee. Rewed (talk) 21:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Rewed, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection.

The easiest way to submit a report is to go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets-gadget-section-browsing and enable Twinkle. Then, go back to the page and find the new 'TW' menu (near the watchlist ☆ button). Choose "RPP" from the Twinkle menu. Fill the in the form with a brief explanation of the problem and your request (e.g., for WP:SEMI to stop editing by the unregistered editor) . WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:49, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I have protected the page. Please keep an eye on the talk page, to see if someone requests changes. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

About article Harbin

@Discospinster: Hi! If you translate this website this website with Google Translation, You will find a sentence that says: "Harbin" comes from the Jurchen language "Harwen", which means "swan". Because that website is the city government website, it should be a reliable source. This is different from the "Place of Drying Fishing Nets" statement introduced by English Misplaced Pages. I wonder if I can add it to the article? Suspected source, but not sure if it counts as original research. See also: Google Books (in Chinese). In addition, I found that some websites said that the literal meaning of "Harbin" comes from "Alejin", which means "honor". BUT THEY AREN'T ENGLISH SOURCES, ALSO I WAS NOT FIND ENGLISH SOURCES. And the harbin article Japanese Misplaced Pages have aparted these theories.-邻家的王子 (talk) 19:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

If the source is reliable it doesn't matter that it's not in English. You can add that information if it would be considered reliable. ... discospinster _talk 19:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@邻家的王子, it is our policy that you can use Misplaced Pages:NONENGLISH sources. Editors should only use good sources, but there are many good sources that are written in other languages.

Finding a source that says "swan" does not prove that "place of drying fishing nets" is wrong. Sometimes it is best to say something like "Different meanings have been ascribed to the name. For example, the city government says the name means swan in the Jurchen language, and the Hong Kong Trade Development Council says that it means 'place of the drying fishing nets'."

When something needs a longer explanation, it should not usually be included in the Misplaced Pages:Infobox. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)