| Revision as of 21:31, 27 July 2024 editRevolution Saga (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users8,450 edits →Template: ReplyTag: Reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 21:38, 27 July 2024 edit undoRevolution Saga (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users8,450 edits →Template: ReplyTag: ReplyNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::::::If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your ]. ] (]) 13:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC) | ::::::::::If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your ]. ] (]) 13:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::@] Just so you know, Nzhdeh was no longer a member of the ARF during WWII. He had left the party quite some time before then. As for the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked, I don't think they should be used for any articles on Armenian history, as they are not scholarly sources and clearly have an aggressive anti-Armenian agenda. Anyway, without a clear criterion of what should and should not be included in the template under discussion, this discussion is unlikely to go anywhere. To clarify my position: at the very least, I think the inclusion of the ARF in the template is possibly misleading and definitely inconsistent, since, for example, the Azerbaijani Musavat Party and the Georgian Mensheviks, some members of which also helped the Nazis against the Soviet Union during the war (per Abramyan's ''Kavkaztsy v Abvere'', p. 85ff), are not included. If the ARF is going to be included, then it's only fair that these parties be included as well. I'm going to edit the section in the article about WWII to correspond to the info in Walker's book and possibly also Abramyan if I have time to read more of it. ] (]) 21:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC) | :::::::::::@] Just so you know, Nzhdeh was no longer a member of the ARF during WWII. He had left the party quite some time before then. As for the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked, I don't think they should be used for any articles on Armenian history, as they are not scholarly sources and clearly have an aggressive anti-Armenian agenda. Anyway, without a clear criterion of what should and should not be included in the template under discussion, this discussion is unlikely to go anywhere. To clarify my position: at the very least, I think the inclusion of the ARF in the template is possibly misleading and definitely inconsistent, since, for example, the Azerbaijani Musavat Party and the Georgian Mensheviks, some members of which also helped the Nazis against the Soviet Union during the war (per Abramyan's ''Kavkaztsy v Abvere'', p. 85ff), are not included. If the ARF is going to be included, then it's only fair that these parties be included as well. I'm going to edit the section in the article about WWII to correspond to the info in Walker's book and possibly also Abramyan if I have time to read more of it. ] (]) 21:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::::::::P. S., I also noticed that the section referenced in the ''Banality of Denial'' book by Yair Auron is not the author's own writing but a quoted passage from a denialist Israeli historian, so take that into consideration when using that source. Best, ] (]) 21:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC) | |||
| ==GA Reassessment== | ==GA Reassessment== | ||
Revision as of 21:38, 27 July 2024
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 | Armenian Revolutionary Federation was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Searches for Dashnaktsutiun, Dashnak Party and Dashnak should redirect here.
Paragraph irrelevant to heading
The following is the first paragraph under the heading "Young Turk Revolution":
In the 1890s the party used terrorism against the Ottoman Empire and Russia with the goal of gaining an independent nation, more well known attacks occurred against Bedros Kapamciyan, the mayor of Van who was assassinated in December 1912, and the assassination of archbishop Leon Tourian in New York City on December 24, 1933.
Only the incident in 1912 is relevant to that segment and the source used is by a Turkish nationalist author. I would remove that short paragraph completely but I'd, if it has to stay, at least call for a better source and move it somewhere else in the article. AlenVaneci (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Russophilia
Hello, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation cannot be characterized with "Russophilia" as done in the sidebar of the article. The party is far from that, in reality. The party has collaborated with the Russians due to geographic proximity and strategic interests. However, the ARF's main policy is Armenophilia, as the party is created by and for the Armenian people. Its goals are the liberation of lost Armenian lands and justice for the Armenian Genocide. The party has nothing to do with loving the Russians and obsessing with them. I cannot edit this article, but I request someone remove that term. ProtoCS (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
GA concerns
After quickly skimming the article, I am concerened that it does not meet the good article criteria anymore. Some of my concerns are listed below:
- The lede, at 7 paragrphs, is far more than the 3-4 recommended at WP:LEDE.
- There are numerous uncited sections, including entire paragraphs.
- There are numerous paragraphs that are one line long. These should be merged and copyedited.
Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 20:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
- These problems are too extensive, I think, to be addressed in a short amount of time. It should probably go to WP:GAR. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 21:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Template
@Archives908 Hi. I don't think there is a credible reason to restore this template by the blocked user because if you read the article, nowhere does it say the whole ARF collaborated with Nazis, this is what the relevant sentence says: "During World War II, some Berlin-based ARF members saw an opportunity to remove Soviet control from Armenia by supporting the Nazis." So according to the article, only some ARF members collaborated, not the whole organization. Therefore the template should be removed, it doesn't belong to the ARF organization as a whole which this article is about. Vanezi (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Some ARF members collaborated with the Nazis, which means that the ARF, did, in some capacity, collaborate with the Nazis. Its sourced and therefore its inclusion is warranted. Archives908 (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
- Some doesn't represent the whole organization, that's not how it works. ARF has thousands of members, and if ARF organization itself hasn't collaborated in a formal manner, then the template has no place here. Vanezi (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
- Several high-ranking members did formally collaborate, and they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself. Just because the ARF was not designated as an official "Nazi ally", it does not negate the collaboration between the party elite and the Nazi's. Collaboration does not always have to be "formalized". There is no inclusion criteria which states that only "formal allies" may be included. The Armenian Legion, commanded by Drastamat Kanayan (a high-ranking ARF politician) literally fought in allegiance with the Nazis. Therefore, its inclusion is warranted. Archives908 (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Archives908, can you provide a source for the claim that "they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself"? Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 14:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, (see ) which states: "the Berlin-based representatives of Tashnag (Armenian Revolutionary Federation—ARF) Armenians hastily signed an agreement with the Germans promising that Armenian volunteers would fight on the German side against the Soviets." Regardless if the central bureau accepted this or not, collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis (within some capacity) took place. Archives908 (talk) 19:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keghart is an opinion piece. The Banality book doesn't use the term "collaborator" or phrase "supporting the Nazis", or any of the other intentionally vague and provocative language that the article currently uses. This is original research. Vanezi (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Archives908 @Vanezi Astghik I agree that the Keghart piece is not an adequate citation for this claim. Yair Auron's book also does not mention the ARF at all. To my knowledge, Dro's actions were not sanctioned by the party leadership. Consult this passage from Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed., admittedly a somewhat old source by now): "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies" (357). I can search for more sources later. Eduard Abramyan's Kavkaztsy v Abvere (Кавказцы в Абвере, Moscow 2006) may contain relevant information. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 10:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- The Armenian Revolutionary Federation was conquered by the Russian Bolsheviks in 1920, and ceased to exist. This time, the Dashnaks saw a good opportunity in the collaboration with the Nazis to regain those territories. To that end, on December 30, 1941 they formed a battalion of 8,000-strong known as the “812th Armenian Battalion of Wehrmacht” under the command of Dro (per ) and Armenian Revolutionary Federation leaders worked closely with German Military Intelligence. The Armenians did for Germany what they first did best for the Russians in World War I — spying. From mid 1941 until September 1944 the Armenians worked closely with Nazi intelligence offices in Turkey and throughout the Middle East. Armenian “secret” agents worked to spread German propaganda and helped the Nazis run down and locate Jews. During the early years of the war Armenian leaders thought Germany would win the war. They made every effort to cut a deal for the Germans to give them Russian and Turkish lands. (per ).
- For the third time, this isn't about how much involvement the central bureau had with the Nazi's, its about collaboration. The ARF did have some amount of collaboration with the Nazi's. May I remind folks, that there was quite literally an Armenian Legion (part of the Nazi German army) which was led by an ARF member. That, in it of itself, means there was some level of collaboration between high-ranking ARF member(s) and the Nazis. Archives908 (talk) 12:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would strongly recommend against consulting Armenian genocide denialist sources like that for this issue, or any historical topics. If members of the party collaborated with the Nazis on an individual level, against the decisions of the party leadership, and not acting in their capacity as ARF members, then it may be somewhat misleading to include the entire party in this template. (I am not saying this is necessarily the case, but I think there should be WP:RS to assert that they were acting as representatives of the party.) In any case, I think we should focus on clarifying what the scholarship says in the main text of the article before deciding what to with this template. Revolution Saga (talk) 13:47, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Your edit summary didn't make sense - what consensus are you talking about when you haven't replied to my comment even at the time you reverted me? Consensus is supposed to be reached between two parties (in this case at the time) or more, you can't just revert without yourself having disagreed with my comment or commented on talk. And your new source isn't WP:RS as noted already by Revolution Saga, we don't use denialist sources in general and even more so in sensitive topics.
- Let's get it straight: this template wasn't in the article, neither was this, both were added by a blocked user . Even if we go by your logic, this user didn't have consensus to add such controversial material in the first place. Restoring it without consensus should be your concern, the burden for consensus is on you to include disputed content. Vanezi (talk) 05:49, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's okay for you to reply to me after 12 days, yet you expect me to respond immediately? Unfortunately, Misplaced Pages does not work like that. Misplaced Pages is a WP:VOLUNTEER project and I am not expected to respond to you at your beck and call. I did not say anything to you after taking 2 weeks to respond. You should understand that most editors are WP:BUSY.
- As per WP:BRD, your "B"old edit was "R"everted (several times), and then editors should "D"iscuss to reach a consensus. That guideline doesn't work when editors persistently reinstate their preferred version without reaching a conclusive WP:CON. Not sure how my edit summary wasn't clear, but hopefully its crystal clear now!
- Revolution Saga simply suggested to avoid using that source regarding the genocide. But the genocide is not what we are discussing here and has nothing to do with this thread. Revolution Saga also said above that they aren't saying it was or wasn't the case in regards to proving ARF involvement with the Nazis.
- The lead of Garegin Nzhdeh quite literally states "During World War II, he cooperated with Nazi Germany, hoping to secure Soviet Armenia's existence in case of Germany's victory over USSR and a potential Turkish invasion of the Caucasus." It's well sourced. This alone confirms that there was some degree of collaboration between the Nazi's and high ranking ARF members. While Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy confirms that there were at least 9 Armenian battalions which fought alongside the Nazis as part of the Armenian Legion. The 812th Battalion was established in 1942 when a number of ARF members entered into negotiations with Berlin. These articles and passages are all academically sourced on their respective articles. Read them.
- If you are suggesting that there was absolutely zero collaboration with the ARF and the Nazis, please do present your WP:RS. Archives908 (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Archives908 Just so you know, Nzhdeh was no longer a member of the ARF during WWII. He had left the party quite some time before then. As for the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked, I don't think they should be used for any articles on Armenian history, as they are not scholarly sources and clearly have an aggressive anti-Armenian agenda. Anyway, without a clear criterion of what should and should not be included in the template under discussion, this discussion is unlikely to go anywhere. To clarify my position: at the very least, I think the inclusion of the ARF in the template is possibly misleading and definitely inconsistent, since, for example, the Azerbaijani Musavat Party and the Georgian Mensheviks, some members of which also helped the Nazis against the Soviet Union during the war (per Abramyan's Kavkaztsy v Abvere, p. 85ff), are not included. If the ARF is going to be included, then it's only fair that these parties be included as well. I'm going to edit the section in the article about WWII to correspond to the info in Walker's book and possibly also Abramyan if I have time to read more of it. Revolution Saga (talk) 21:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- P. S., I also noticed that the section referenced in the Banality of Denial book by Yair Auron is not the author's own writing but a quoted passage from a denialist Israeli historian, so take that into consideration when using that source. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 21:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Archives908 Just so you know, Nzhdeh was no longer a member of the ARF during WWII. He had left the party quite some time before then. As for the Turkish diaspora organizations' websites you linked, I don't think they should be used for any articles on Armenian history, as they are not scholarly sources and clearly have an aggressive anti-Armenian agenda. Anyway, without a clear criterion of what should and should not be included in the template under discussion, this discussion is unlikely to go anywhere. To clarify my position: at the very least, I think the inclusion of the ARF in the template is possibly misleading and definitely inconsistent, since, for example, the Azerbaijani Musavat Party and the Georgian Mensheviks, some members of which also helped the Nazis against the Soviet Union during the war (per Abramyan's Kavkaztsy v Abvere, p. 85ff), are not included. If the ARF is going to be included, then it's only fair that these parties be included as well. I'm going to edit the section in the article about WWII to correspond to the info in Walker's book and possibly also Abramyan if I have time to read more of it. Revolution Saga (talk) 21:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Archives908 @Vanezi Astghik I agree that the Keghart piece is not an adequate citation for this claim. Yair Auron's book also does not mention the ARF at all. To my knowledge, Dro's actions were not sanctioned by the party leadership. Consult this passage from Christopher J. Walkers Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (London: Routledge, 1990, rev. 2nd ed., admittedly a somewhat old source by now): "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance. The whole Dashnak party did not take this stance; the section of the party in Cairo affirmed its loyalty to the Allies" (357). I can search for more sources later. Eduard Abramyan's Kavkaztsy v Abvere (Кавказцы в Абвере, Moscow 2006) may contain relevant information. Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 10:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keghart is an opinion piece. The Banality book doesn't use the term "collaborator" or phrase "supporting the Nazis", or any of the other intentionally vague and provocative language that the article currently uses. This is original research. Vanezi (talk) 16:42, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Absolutely, (see ) which states: "the Berlin-based representatives of Tashnag (Armenian Revolutionary Federation—ARF) Armenians hastily signed an agreement with the Germans promising that Armenian volunteers would fight on the German side against the Soviets." Regardless if the central bureau accepted this or not, collaboration between the ARF and the Nazis (within some capacity) took place. Archives908 (talk) 19:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Archives908, can you provide a source for the claim that "they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself"? Best, Revolution Saga (talk) 14:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Several high-ranking members did formally collaborate, and they did so with full acknowledgment/ permission of the ARF itself. Just because the ARF was not designated as an official "Nazi ally", it does not negate the collaboration between the party elite and the Nazi's. Collaboration does not always have to be "formalized". There is no inclusion criteria which states that only "formal allies" may be included. The Armenian Legion, commanded by Drastamat Kanayan (a high-ranking ARF politician) literally fought in allegiance with the Nazis. Therefore, its inclusion is warranted. Archives908 (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Some doesn't represent the whole organization, that's not how it works. ARF has thousands of members, and if ARF organization itself hasn't collaborated in a formal manner, then the template has no place here. Vanezi (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
Armenian Revolutionary Federation
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found
- Result: Delisted. Hog Farm Talk 22:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Bloated, seven-paragraph lede, numerous uncited statements and paragraphs, and numerous one-line paragraphs. Z1720 (talk) 19:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delist per nom; Media section is also unsourced and suffers from MOS:PSUEDOHEAD. Queen of Hearts 08:14, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
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