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Section sizes Section size for People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran (48 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 31,396 31,396 History 15 106,410 Early years (1965–1970) 1,844 1,844 Schism (1970–1978) 13,123 13,123 1979 Iranian Revolution and subsequent power struggles 4,891 4,891 Cultural revolution, Iranian protests, and subsequent oppression (1980–1981) 5,679 14,023 Hafte Tir bombing 4,783 4,783 Open conflict with the Islamic Republican Party 3,561 3,561 Exile and underground opposition activity (1982–1988) 3,846 18,398 Operations Shining sun, Forty Stars, and Mersad 9,228 9,228 1988 execution of MEK prisoners 5,324 5,324 Post-war Saddam era (1988–2003) 6,830 11,150 2003 French arrests 4,320 4,320 Post-U.S. invasion of Iraq (2003–2016) 11,056 25,162 Iraqi government's crackdown (2009–2012) 6,957 6,957 Iran's nuclear programme 7,149 7,149 Settlement in Albania (2016–present) 1,311 17,804 Relationship during Trump presidency 5,259 5,259 Islamic Republic of Iran operations against MEK inside Europe 11,234 11,234 Ideology 15 27,096 Before the revolution 6,162 6,162 After the revolution 3,623 3,623 Ideological revolution and women's rights 5,308 5,308 Cult of personality 11,988 11,988 Structure and organization 34 27,286 Organizations 3,564 3,564 Membership 3,258 3,258 Fundraising 8,104 8,104 Intelligence capabilities 5,545 5,545 Propaganda and social media 6,781 6,781 Terrorist designation 78 21,300 Assignment of designation 11,197 11,197 Removal of designation 10,025 10,025 Foreign relations 4,398 14,053 Position on the Israel–Palestinian conflict 1,807 1,807 Relations with the United States 7,848 7,848 Human rights record 5,871 5,871 Intelligence campaigns against the MEK 7,370 10,107 Targeting of MEK members outside Iran 2,737 2,737 Perception 15 8,868 Inside Iran 6,541 6,541 By other Iranian opposition parties 2,312 2,312 In the media 1,099 1,099 See also 354 354 Notes 39 39 References 5,376 5,376 Bibliography 4,761 4,761 External links 2,612 2,612 Total 266,628 266,628

On 21 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from People's Mujahedin of Iran to People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran. The result of the discussion was moved.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Fiona Hamilton (7 January 2023). "How Misplaced Pages is being changed to downgrade Iranian human rights atrocities". The Times. Retrieved 8 January 2023. On the MEK's English Misplaced Pages page over the summer a string of information describing human rights abuses by Iranian officials was deleted. The anonymous users who changed the content cited the need for "trimming" or claimed that the material was trivial. Farid Mahoutchi (18 January 2024). "In the War for Narratives Iran's Regime Takes to Misplaced Pages". National Council of Resistance of Iran. Retrieved 18 January 2024. For instance, on the English language Misplaced Pages page for "People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran", the writing suggests that "At one point the MEK was Iran's 'largest and most active armed dissident group,' and it is still sometimes presented by Western political backers as a major Iranian opposition group, but it is also deeply unpopular today within Iran, largely due to its siding with Iraq in Iran–Iraq War." The sources of this statement, which carries a significant amount of misinformation, are articles from reputable outlets. However, it's noteworthy that the authors, who have historically expressed hostile views toward the organization, contribute to the narrative.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization-BRD

I added In the War for Narratives Iran’s Regime Takes to Misplaced Pages by National Council of Resistance of Iran to this talkpage-template, and was reverted on that, "this is not a media organization, but a self-published post by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (an organization with at least one member banned by WMF T&S"

Reasonable people can disagree on what counts as "media organization" in this context, I thought it was close enough, though I tend to be a bit inclusionist on these things. I think of a political org's official website as a media org, in general. Not that it comes up in this context very often, most of it will be some kind of "news". Fwiw, the website has "News". If you have an opinion, please share. However, "an organization with at least one member banned by WMF T&S" doesn't matter in this context, but it's interesting info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess that's fair. MarioGom (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: As you note, it's a political party's blog. While it might contain media, that does not make it a "media site" by any standard definition of the term. WP:PRESS and the press template are strictly for press sources. Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages in blogs is the place for blog mentions. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The site has a blog-section, but afaict, the article in question is not there. Some political parties used to publish their own newspapers and magazines (maybe some still do), I don't consider this very different. But that's my view. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Characterization as a cult

Hogo-2020: You reverted my change changing the title of the section "Cult of personality" to "Characterization as a cult". Your rationale was While some sources use this term for the MEK, others don't. It is irrelevant that some sources do not describe it as a cult. Some do, and in-text attribution is used to note it. The section is not about "cult of personality". The content and the backing sources are way more broad and discuss the extent to which the organization can (or cannot) be characterized as a cult. It is simply incorrect to name this section "cult of personality". It does not match the content. It does not match the sources. MarioGom (talk) 18:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh God, the topic's back. Yes, it's described as a cult, but not a cult of personality. It wasn't one of these things where everyone hung the pictures of the leaders on the walls. Characterization is a more usefully descriptive/functional subtitle. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom. I reverted your edit (didn't change the title as you say) because it was a deeply biased change. It is not irrelevant that other sources use the term "Cult of Personality". All reliable sources need to be considered, and if that's what's missing in that section, then perhaps we should be discussing that instead. I take it from the above comment that this has been previously addressed. If you're adamant about this change, we should look at those discussions as well as sources and determine what new information would support such a change. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Hogo-2020: Do you realize that the section is not about "cult of personality"? Neither the content or the sources are about that. It just does not make any sense. Which title would you propose for this section? MarioGom (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Also note that you are free to propose any other changes to the content, but trying to keep a title unrelated to the content is the kind of filibusterism that has plagued the 62 pages of archives already . MarioGom (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom, as already said, this looks like a deeply biased change because you're overlooking a major part of the literature. I will survey sources (also in the archives) and start a list here. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how the title is biased at all. The title is not "Cult", "Cult characteristics", or "This is a cult". "Characterization as a cult" is a fairly neutral heading for a section that discusses the sources that describe it as a cult, a politico-religious sect, etc. Some of these sources are as reliable as they can get, such as Ervand Abrahamian. But in any case, the heading "Characterization as a cult" does not preclude adding reliable sources that try to refute the others or represent a different viewpoint on the topic. MarioGom (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you please say which sources use the title "Characterization as a cult" (or similar)? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a summary of the content. What would be your preferred title? MarioGom (talk) 07:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

How did you arrive at that summary? through which sources? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Please, just see the content of the section. These sources state that the organization has characteristics of a cult, with different aspects being discussed. How would you call a well-sourced section that discusses the extent to which an organization is a cult or displays some characteristics of a cult? The exact title does not need to be in the sources, just like "History" or "Controversies" do not need to explictly come from the sources, as long as the sources discuss history and controversies. So, again, what would be your preferred title for this section? MarioGom (talk) 08:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I got your overall point: you think my proposed title is "deeply biased" and it's unlikely I can persuade you. That's why I wonder what would be your proposal, or if you think the current title is just correct. Given the track record of this page, this would likely need an RFC, but it would be unfair if it did not represent all options. MarioGom (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm as confused as Mario about what you think is "deeply biased" here. I can't see any bias, and you haven't explained any bias. I see one, arguably inaccurate descriptive subhead that has been exchanged for a related, but less specific and objectionable descriptive subhead. I don't see where bias comes into it at all. All labels of "cult" are characterisations, and there "Characterisations as a cult" is a perfectly reasonable subhead. Your objections, on the other hand, are as yet entirely unexplained. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom. This list of books use "Cult of personality".

• Iran today : an encyclopedia of life in the Islamic Republic. Authors: Mehran Kamrava (Editor), Manochehr Dorraj (Editor). Publisher: Greenwood Press, Westport, Conn., 2008. Page 338.
• Terrornomics. Authors: Sean S. Costigan, David GoldPublished March 16, 2016. Publisher: Routledge. Page 68.
• Deadly connections states that sponsor terrorism. Authors: Daniel Byman. Publisher: Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2005 Page 37.
• Conflict in the modern Middle East : an encyclopedia of civil war, revolutions, and regime change. Author:Jonathan K. Zartman (Editor). Publisher: ABC-CLIO, 2020. Page 209.
• The Iranian Mojahedin. Author: Ervand Abrahamian. Publisher: Yale University Press, New Haven, 1989. Page 255.
• The Thousand and One Borders of Iran Travel and Identity. Author: Fariba Adelkhah. Publisher: Routledge, 2015. Page 270.
• Iran Agenda The Real Story of U.S. Policy and the Middle East Crisis. Authors: Reese Erlich, Robert Scheer. Publisher: Routledge, 2016. Page 99.
• Terrorist Argument. Author: Christopher C. Harmon. Publisher: Brookings Institution Press, 2018. Page 170.

My proposal is to have the section consider books like these. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

And the reason why I asked you where you got this title from is because I saw in the archives that it was proposed about 4 years ago by two editors that appear to be now banned from this topic, SharabSalam and Mhhossein. How did you arrive at the same verbatim biased title as they did? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding further sources, including discussion of "cult of personality" practices is still compatible with a title "characterization as a cult". On the other hand, a title "cult of personality" is not appropriate for a section that discusses broader "cult-like" practices, not limited to cult of personality. You are welcome to expand the section with further reliable sources, but expanding it with cult of personality practices does not really change my point about the title. In fact, some of the sources you bring up discuss cult practices beyond cult of personality, like Abrahamian. About your later question of previous discussions: yes, I have read many previous discussions over the years, and I'll never claim all my proposals are novel (as neither are yours), there's nothing wrong with that. MarioGom (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom. Your answer is rather compelling. I previously asked you how you had arrived at the title "Characterization as a cult", and you said you had not used sources but had read and summarized the content of the section: "It's a summary of the content", "just see the content of the section", "The exact title does not need to be in the sources". However the same verbatim title change proposal was made 4 years ago by two editors that are now banned and who used an unreliable source as the basis for the title change. Where things get compelling is that you never said you were reviving this proposal from 4 years ago, you said you had come up with this proposal by looking at the current content of the section. So how can both proposals (yours, and the one from 4 years ago by two banned editors using an unreliable source) be identical? Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

If you think I'm not acting in good faith, please, report this to an appropriate venue. Otherwise, would you engage assuming good faith in this discussion? I made the case for this proposal at great length here, and asked you some questions to try to build consensus (whether you think the current title is ok or not, whether you have another proposal, or what would you think would be appropriate options for an RFC), but you did not answer any so far. I'm not going to engage in de-railing this thread with a long exchange on this innuendo about whatever some other editor said 4 years ago. MarioGom (talk) 11:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom, I'm also interested in the content (I did answer about your proposal using sources, and I'm currently gathering additional sources that I will provide here soon). I'm also not interested in escalating this, but could you just please clear this up? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I answered already . I'm not going to write a longer essay here about this. It's not relevant for this discussion. MarioGom (talk) 08:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

If you really want to go deeper on this meta discussion on my behaviour, my talk page is open. I think this thread should continue with the substance, and avoid shifting to meta-discussions that do not serve consensus building. MarioGom (talk) 09:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom, I have looked at sources in the article, archives, and Google Books. Here is the draft list I've put together so far. I'm looking for additional sources, do you have any? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hogo-2020: I have been compiling some sources in a sandbox. It is quite early work. I am also drafting a rewrite of the section, although I expect my title proposal to stand both with the current content or my proposed content.To ensure our efforts are directed towards some possible resolution, would you mind clarifying if the current title ("Cult of personality") is your preferred choice based on your current understanding of the sources? Otherwise, do you have any other option in mind? MarioGom (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

That being said, I think there's a misconception in your draft. "Cult" and "cult of personality" are not mutually exclusive. Some discuss "cult of personality" without labeling as "cult", while others discuss "cult of personality" as part of an explicit labeling as a cult. This is the case of Ervand Abrahamian, who you classify as "absolutely cult of personality", but he is the scholar describing the MEK most unambiguously as a cult (and yes, also discussing the cult of personality aspects). This can be seen in the following passages:

• Abrahamian, Ervand (1989). Radical Islam: The Iranian Mojahedin. I.B. Tauris. p. 255. ISBN 978-1-85043-077-3. In short, the Mojahedin had metamorphized from a mass movement into an inward-looking sect in many ways similar to religious cults found the world over.
• Abrahamian, Ervand (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 274. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. The Sazman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq declared that the revolution had been betrayed, took up arms against the Islamic Republic, and, setting up bases outside the country, turned into a cult resembling medieval Shi'i sects. Its leader elevated himself into an infallible imam with the power to determine policy and reinterpret thirteen centuries of Islam.

As well as other works, including the following interview:

• Vick, Karl (21 June 2003). "Iranian Dissident Group Labeled a Terrorist Cult". The Washington Post.

where he stated they stopped being a mass movement with Marxist roots and became basically a cult MarioGom (talk) 12:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom. My list evaluates which terminology aligns with WP:DUE, which would determine if a potential title change is necessary. I will add your quotes to the list, but are you also able to find sources with other perspectives? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

As I said, there's a conceptual problem with that. "Cult of personality" is one aspect. Some sources discuss it as part of broader cult-like behavior. "Cult of personality" as a section title is not broad enough to convey that the section discusses what different sources claim about cult-like behavior, not limited to cult of personality. MarioGom (talk) 16:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Analysis or synthesis about how certain authors discuss cult-behavior within the broader concept of "cult of personality" is a patent Misplaced Pages:No original research breach. My list displays quotes from reliable sources to determine what terminology and content aligns with WP:DUE, also including the sources you mention that discuss both "Cult of personality" and "Characterization as a cult" aspects. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I have checked the most relevant sources, and I think you have done so too. I think the discussion is stuck because it is not a matter of reading the sources again, but an essential disagreement on how to interpret them, and how to conceptualize the different aspects. I'll start workshopping a possible RFC. MarioGom (talk) 14:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I have a few observations on the discussion so far. First, yes, the concept of "cult" in general is broader than just "cult of personality", so the latter does not adequately encompass the former. Secondly, in Hogo's source analysis, the "allegations" column is largely not allegations, but reliable and/or notable opinions. A good example is HRW, which is a reliable source in its own right. If they characterise it as a cult, that's a reliable characterisation. Finally, if it is purely a phrasing question, other formulations could be things like "cult-like attributes", "labelling as a cult", etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I understand people will have personal observations, but my list only displays quotes from reliable sources without any personal analysis or editorializing. If a source attributes claims as coming from critics, governments, or certain analysts, then that's how I have also listed them. For example the AP article has two contrasting opinions, one is by a critic and the other by someone rejecting that criticism. These are two contrasting opinions coming from the same source, and I've quoted them accordingly without any further appraisals. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course those are opinions. Those are just statements by politicians. Those aren't the examples I gave. The voices of subject-matter experts, research organisations and independent bodies are not just opinions however - these are reliable, expert statements. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The source quotes them as opinions, and I'm doing the same. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but random opinions in random news pieces are not very relevant. This sort of stuff carries little to no weight. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

My source analysis prioritizes content from books. Let me know if you have any other book you'd like me to consider. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Workshop: RFC on section title

I intend to open an RFC to resolve the above discussion. It could be as follows:

== RFC: Section title for the current "Cult of personality" section ==

What should be title title of the section currently titled "Cult of personality" (permalink)?

• Option 1: "Cult of personality" (statu quo)
• Option 2: "Characterization as a cult"

Alternatively, if it turns out there are no further options, I can turn it into a yes/no question, along the following lines:

== RFC: Section rename to "Characterization as a cult" ==

Should the section currently titled "Cult of personality" (permalink) be renamed to "Characterization as a cult"?

What do you think? Are these the two options that we would consider? Is there any other? cc participants in the above discussion (Hogo-2020, Iskandar323). MarioGom (talk) 14:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps Hogo can respond to my final comment above first. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom. Before starting a RFC about the title, there are unresolved questions about the content of the section. For example the sentence:

• The MEK has been described as a "cult" by governments and officials in Iran, the United States, France, and Iraq.

My list shows how Owen Bennett Jones in The BBC and the AP article provide contrasting opinions, yet the sentence selectively represents only one point of view. That is one of several WP:NEUTRAL problems in the section. Would you like to help me clean it up? Hogo-2020 (talk) 10:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the section needs to be rewritten, but at least for my proposal, I do not think it would change the title choice. So I don't think we need to wait for or hold back content changes. That can continue its own editing cycle. For what it's worth, I'm drafting new content, which would open with the following paragraph (still work in progress): Whether the MEK can be characterized as a cult or not is a frequent discussion among scholars. Some of them, including Ervand Abrahamian and Michael Axworthy, consider that, after the Iranian Revolution, the organization became a cult. Others, including Ronen A. Cohen and Eli Clifton, consider that the organization has some characteristics of a cult. However, Cohen notes that these characteristics are common across military organizations in times of war, and that the MEK cannot be considered a cult. I think the sentence you quote should be replaced as part of a rewrite, since I think it gives undue weight to declarations by some individual government officials, and scholar sources should have more weight.Hogo-2020: I'm sorry for being repetitive, but back to the point: do you think all reasonable options for the title are represented? Or do you expect to support any other? Do you think the formulation of the RFC, as presented, would be neutral? MarioGom (talk) 12:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Hogo-2020: We are all volunteers and obviously you have no obligation to answer any question, but I have asked this many many times in this thread, without receiving any answer. I intend to keep answering your questions and concerns, but it would be really great if you had the courtesy of answering the most basic question I made (repeatedly): Do you think all reasonable options for the title are represented? Or do you expect to support any other? Do you think the formulation of the RFC, as presented, would be neutral? MarioGom (talk) 08:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom: I have already addressed this. But if it's still unclear, the title should align with WP:DUE terminology. So far most sources (particularly books) use "Cult of personality". If it can be established that "Characterization as a cult" (or any other terminology) is more frequently used in sources, then I would support whatever terminology is WP:DUE. I have been analyzing the sources in that section and found that often the content selectively represents only one point of view, so I cannot tell you yet if your title choice is reasonable until we address this. Now would you please address the WP:NEUTRAL problems in that section that I asked about? Why delete from the page that RAND also describes the group as a cult of personality and that this claim is being denied by supporters, and only keep RAND's list of cult characteristics? Hogo-2020 (talk) 10:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You seem to have done quite a lot of review of sources, so I thought by now you would have a rough idea of the possible choices. I'm not asking for you to commit to anything, none of this is binding for a future RFC, but ok.I did not delete, I reverted, which is not the same. I objected to your changes and explained why. Your edit removed or replaced the following passages:

• "many of the typical characteristics of a cult, such as authoritarian control, confiscation of assets, sexual control (including mandatory divorce and celibacy), emotional isolation, forced labour, sleep deprivation, physical abuse and limited exit options."
• According to RAND, members were lured in through "false promises of employment, land, aid in applying for asylum in Western countries" and then prevented from leaving.

and I have not seen any justification other than Merging RAND , which is definitely not an explanation for such a change, in an area that is already proven contentious. MarioGom (talk) 11:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indeed done a good review of some of the sources, and the main problem with that section is its selective misrepresentation of a single point of view. This was the rationale for merging RAND in a manner that includes the various perspectives the source presents. If representing all significant views is a non-negotiable Misplaced Pages policy, then why not include the various perspectives the source presents here? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Your edit removed key points of the RAND report, the ones I quoted. I have no problem expanding, and in fact, I already mentioned I think the section needs expansion. MarioGom (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that section should be better written to represent the different points of views rather than expanded, but ok, I will add the missing views and then we can open a new topic about rewriting certain passages. Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it will eventually need a rewrite to better represent what reliable sources say, with attention to due weight. Adding more info on cult of personality contributes to that. Removing well sourced mentions to cult beyond cult of personality does not. MarioGom (talk) 05:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

In terms of due weight, RAND is cited to a large percentage of the entire section. There are dozens of sources available in this topic, so one source should not carry that much weight. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

These are not useful sources. The BBC piece is half opinion piece itself, is not focused on the issue and merely recollects the uninformed opinions of anonymous soldiers. The AP piece just trots out a few opinions from politicians. There are much more serious, secondary, analytical voices to be referenced here. We don't need trivial, unfocused news clippings and opinions. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom: What is the reason for removing from the article the 13 sources that match the section title "Cult of personality"? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Please, see the edit summary: Several issues: 1) removes well-sourced content (e.g. cult characteristics), 2) misrepresents the RAND report, which describes cult characteristics (not just cult of personality), 3) completely unreasonable refbomb in the body. By refbomb, I mean an indiscriminate list of inline references, where some seem tangential, and there seems to be even duplicates. Although format-wise, it can be improved by using a citation bundle (many examples in this article). Also, please, use proper citation templates. Although my main objection is that the change misrepresents the RAND report, where you changed the quote, seemingly implying that the source discusses only cult of personality, when it goes way way beyond that. MarioGom (talk) 08:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I have partially restored your edits. The one for the initial sentence. Reference selection and style can be refined later. MarioGom (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

References

1. Jones, Owen Bennett (15 April 2012). "An Iranian mystery: Just who are the MEK?". BBC. Retrieved 12 January 2020.
2. "France lashes out at Iranian opposition group". AP NEWS. 27 June 2014.
3. Rogin, Josh (25 August 2011), "MEK rally planned for Friday at State Department", Foreign Policy, retrieved 25 March 2018
4. Abrahamian 1989, pp. 255.
5. Abrahamian, Ervand (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 274. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. The Sazman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq declared that the revolution had been betrayed, took up arms against the Islamic Republic, and, setting up bases outside the country, turned into a cult resembling medieval Shi'i sects. Its leader elevated himself into an infallible imam with the power to determine policy and reinterpret thirteen centuries of Islam.
6. Vick, Karl (21 June 2003). "Iranian Dissident Group Labeled a Terrorist Cult". The Washington Post.
7. Axworthy 2008. "From exile, at first in Paris and later in Iraq, the MKO kept up its opposition and its violent attacks, but dwindled over time to take on the character of a paramilitary cult, largely subordinated to the interests of the Baathist regime in Iraq." sfn error: no target: CITEREFAxworthy2008 (help)
8. Moghissi, Haideh; Rahnema, Saeed (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 300. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. After the revolution, they followed their eclectic ideology, mingling some socialist ideas with their interpretation of Islam, were brutally suppressed by the clerical regime and were reduced to a religious cult based in Iraq but with a large following in other countries outside Iran.
9. Goulka et al. 2009, p. 60. "In 1985, Rajavi announced that he had appointed Maryam Azodanlu, the wife of his close associate Mehdi Abrishamchi, as co-leader of the MeK. She would soon divorce her husband and marry Rajavi. Together, they would launch a new “ideological revolution” that would, over time, transform the MeK into a cult group." sfn error: no target: CITEREFGoulkaHansellWilkeLarson2009 (help)
10. ^ Cohen 2009, pp. 44–46. sfn error: no target: CITEREFCohen2009 (help)
11. Cite error: The named reference Saeed Kamali was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
12. Goulka et al. 2009. sfn error: no target: CITEREFGoulkaHansellWilkeLarson2009 (help)

RAND weight in section "Cult of Personality"

Currently the section "Cult of Personality" has 323 words, of which 102 words (about one-third) are attributed to just one source, RAND. There are dozens of sources available in this topic so the weight given to RAND is undue. Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:16, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

The RAND report is probably the second most cited publication about the MEK in academia, after Abrahamian. So it is due.I think Abrahamian is way underrepresented in the section, and even RAND is underrepresented. Major aspects discussed by both sources are not covered. I don't think any of them should be covered less in absolute terms. MarioGom (talk) 12:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom, where can I verify that RAND is "probably the second most cited publication about the MEK in academia"? Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Also note that I didn't say RAND was not due, I said that it's over-represented because its content makes up about one-third of the entire section. If WP:NPOV requires that editors paraphrase from various reliable sources, then why not do this here? Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:14, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

You can verify this by actually reading the most cited academic sources within the article, as well as the most relevant tertiary sources such as Oxford Reference entries. I'll post a bibliographic review here. This will take some time. MarioGom (talk) 13:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll be waiting for your bibliographic review, but kindly prioritize the central issue. If WP:NPOV requires that we paraphrase from various reliable sources, what is your justification for attributing one-third of the entire section to only RAND when there are dozens of sources available? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

As I said, RAND is one of the most cited, not in this article, but in academic publications. I get that you will not check this, but please, understand that preparing a bibliography review for you will require quite some effort and time. About the extension, I did not advocate for RAND to take one-third. What I said is that is should be well represented, and that other sources, especially Abrahamian (which I hope you will not dispute as being the most important author in this area), need to be represented more. So my guess is that a well written section will have less than one third specifically attributed to RAND, not because reduced representation, but because the most reliable sources (currently underrepresented) will increase in weight. MarioGom (talk) 17:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello MarioGom, note that I did not say RAND was an unreliable source, I said RAND is being over-represented (and it is). A workshop should be set in place now so that portion of the section complies with WP:NPOV through additional sources. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:45, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Would you endorse such a workshop? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:58, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure. I've been reviewing bibliography and drafting some material and I'll be happy to post it here for further discussion. MarioGom (talk) 20:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• I have not been involved in this topic recently. But there was a time when I would read about MEK day and night. Based on my research, MarioGom is correct in saying "The RAND report is probably the second most cited publication about the MEK in academia, after Abrahamian."VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 08:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Workshop:RAND and WP:NPOV through additional sources

A bibliography review focused on paraphrasing from various reliable sources. I'll share my review soon. Hogo-2020 (talk) 10:22, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• I'd be curious to see how frequently each source was cited. For comparison, the RAND article has 33 citations according to google scholar. And the source is both entirely dedicated to MEK, and covers the MEK comprehensively. The first is important, because it assures us all the citations are indeed MEK related. The second is important for establishing relative WEIGHT.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 08:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello VR. Wildfried Butcha's Who rules Iran? : the structure of power in the Islamic Republic (which ellaborates on the MEK thoroughly) is not cited in that section ("Cult of personality") at all and has 390 citations according to Google scholar, while almost of a third of the entire section remains attributed to only RAND. That's obviously against WP:NPOV. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

That source fails the first criteria that the "entirely dedicated to MEK". How many of Butcha's 390 citations are about the MEK? Likely a small minority. However, we can be confident most, if not all, of citations to Abrahamian are regarding the MEK.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The "first criteria" that a source is required to be "entirely dedicated to the MEK" is being imposed by you? I tend to follow WP:POLICIES, and Wildfried Butcha's book (published by a reputable publisher and provides extensive coverage of the MEK) appears to comply with policy. But since we're in this topic, I have found two other papers entirely dedicated to the MEK: Raymond Tanter's Terror Tagging of an Iranian Dissident Organization: A White Paper, and James A. Piazza's The Democratic Islamic Republic of Iran in Exile. The Mojahedin-e Khalq and its Struggle for Survival. Hogo-2020 (talk) 10:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

No, its not imposed by me, its imposed by WP:COMMONSENSE. Given, Butcha's book is not dedicated to the MEK, can you indicate how many of its 390 citations are about the MEK? I went through the few citations in google scholar and didn't find a single citation to the MEK. It seems Butcha's work is well received for its scholarship o Iran in general, but not necessarily the MEK.

Raymond Tanter's book looks to be WP:SELFPUBLISHED (its published by IPC, of which Tanter himself is president). Piazza is better, as its published in Digest of Middle East Studies, a peer-reviewed journal. But it has only 4 citations on google scholar, so its not as widely regarded as RAND.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:24, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how many of Butcha's 390 google scholar citations are about the MEK, but his book does provide extensive coverage of the MEK. Are you suggesting that book can't be used because it isn't entirely dedicated to the MEK? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, and I'm not sure where you got that from. We can definitely use Butcha's book, giving it WP:DUE weight. All I'm saying is that google scholar number of citations for Butch's can't be compared in an apples to apples way to the google citations to RAND or Abrahamian. Thus, RAND and Abrahamian remain the most scholarly publications on the topic, but again Butcha can be cited with WP:DUE.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 14:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

In any case, what material from Butcha did you want to cite? I notice he accuses Rajavi of a "dictatorial leadership" (p 113-114) and goes into details about MEK's "propaganda machine" (p 114-116) and then also calls it a "political religious sect" and says it is run like a "totalitarian, single-party dictatorship" (p 116).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:10, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

• Ronen Cohen's The Rise and Fall of the Mojahedin Khalq has 24 citations according to Google scholar (also missing in that section). Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  Cohen is indeed a good source! From what I see, Cohen says But Rajavi went beyond that: he raised himself to the rank of an Imam-Zaman, thus effectively founding a new religion: Mojahedinism/Rajavism. The new religion required blind obedience and total submission to the ideological leader (i.e. Rajavi alone) (page 46).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Marxism removed from the lead

Hogo-2020 I disagree with this change you made in the lead. You removed: "The group's ideology is rooted in "Islam with revolutionary Marxism""
and replaced it with: "The group's early ideology asserted that science, reason, and modernity are compatible with Islam."

The MEK is widely known for its early Marxist ideology. It is certainly not primarily known for its positions on Islam and science, as admirable as they might be. Abrahamian says on page 100 that both "classical Marxist theories" and "neo-Marxist concepts" informed MEK's ideology.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:20, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

VR These kinds of faulty generalizations cause confusion and misinformation. Firstly, you're omitting important points from Katzman’s single-paragraph summary. Katzman explains that early MEK ideology (from around 1965 to 1971) is "a matter of dispute", with scholars generally describing it as "an attempt to combine Islam with revolutionary Marxism", while "PMOI representatives claim that this misrepresents the groups ideology in that Marxism and Islam are incompatible, and that the PMOI has always emphasized Islam". Your revision ignores the latter part entirely. And even though you removed him from the lead, Abrahamian explains this point with much more detail, here are a couple of excerpts:

"As the organization argued from the very early days, it was willing to learn from Marxist sociology, but categorically rejected Marxist philosophy. It accepted historical determinism but not economic determinism; the class struggle but not the denial of God; dialectics but not atheistic metaphysics. There are no grounds whatsoever for doubting, as some critics do, the sincerity of these religious declarations. It seems highly disingenuous of observers - not to mention hangmen - to raise such doubts when the victims invariably went to their executions espousing their faith in Islam." (I emphasized the last portion)

"the regime labeled the Mujahedin "Islamic Marxists" and claimed that Islam was merely the cover to hide their Marxism. The Mujahedin retorted that although they "respected Marxism as a progressive method of social analysis" they rejected materialism and viewed Islam as their inspiration, culture, and ideology."

• Second issue is that the group's ideological identity after the Iranian Revolution (to the present) remained Islamic, but your revision suggests that it "became about overthrowing the Government", which describes a goal and not their ideology.

• Third, by your own admission, Abrahamian's dedicated book is a better author for this content (most cited author on the MEK with 259 citations on Google scholar, while Katzman has only 1 citation).

• Fourth, in his book, the first thing Abrahamian writes about the MEK is:

"The Sazeman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq Iran (People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran), generally known as the Mojahedin, is worth studying for a number of reasons. It was the first Iranian organization to develop systematically a modern revolutionary interpretation of Islam - an interpretation that differed sharply from both the old conservative Islam of the traditional clergy and the new populist version formulated in the 1970s by Ayatollah Khomeini and his disciples."

In that same introduction, Abrahamian writes:

"The Mojahedin has in fact never once used terms socialist, communist, Marxist or esteraki to describe itself." Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree that Abrahamian is hands down the best source on early MEK ideology. He talks about it in Chapter 3 "The Beginnings" under "Ideology". He introduces it as:

This ideology can be described best as a combination of Islam and Marxism.

He then goes onto describe that MEK themselves said "no to Marxist philosophy" but "yes to Marxist social thought". MEK believed "scientific Marxism" was compatible with Islam. Regarding MEK denials, Abrahamian says:

Although the Mojahedin were consciously influenced by Marxism both modern and classical, they vehemently denied being Marxists; indeed they even denied being socialists.

He concludes,

The ideology of the Mojahedin was thus a combination of Muslim themes; Shia notions of martyrdom; classical Marxist theories of class struggle and historical determinism; and Neo-Marxist concepts of armed struggle, guerrilla warfare and revolutionary heroism.

I'm open to different wordings for both their pre- and post-exile ideology.

VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 08:40, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

References

1. The Iranian Mojahedin. Author: Ervand Abrahamian. Publisher: Yale University Press, New Haven, 1989. Page 100-101.
2. Iran Between Two Revolutions (Princeton Studies on the Near East). Author: Ervand Abrhamian. Publisher: Princeton University Press, 1982. Page 492
3. The Iranian Mojahedin. Author: Ervand Abrahamian. Publisher: Yale University Press, New Haven, 1989. Page 1-2.

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