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First sentence of second paragraph currently reads "Hezbollah also confirmed the death of Ali Karaki, Commander of Hezbollah's Southern Front, along with other senior commanders." The link on "Southern Front" links to a defunct group from the Syrian Civil War not tied to Hezbollah. I recommend the link be removed and "Front" be changed to "front" to indicate that he was a regional commander, not a member of a separate militia group. ] (]) 19:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC) First sentence of second paragraph currently reads "Hezbollah also confirmed the death of Ali Karaki, Commander of Hezbollah's Southern Front, along with other senior commanders." The link on "Southern Front" links to a defunct group from the Syrian Civil War not tied to Hezbollah. I recommend the link be removed and "Front" be changed to "front" to indicate that he was a regional commander, not a member of a separate militia group. ] (]) 19:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

:Great catch, thanks. I have left the capitalization as is because that's what the source uses. ] ] 19:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

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Requested move 27 September 2024

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It has been proposed in this section that 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike be renamed and moved to 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks.

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2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike → 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks or 27 September 2024 Beirut attack – While Israel states it only targeted the Hezbollah headquarters, several RS say the attack lay waste to "Several apartment blocks" or "multiple high-rise apartment buildings". Given such an immense destruction of civilian infrastructure, we should not put Israeli claims that this was a "precise strike" on just the Hezbollah HQ in wikivoice (violation of WP:POVTITLE]), and instead pick the most neutral title. VR (Please ping on reply) 21:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Had the attack only killed/injured Nasrallah and those close to him, I'd have agreed with you. But the amount of collateral damage is immense and reducing it to one person, is quite POV. Also, there is precedent: consider the 1981 Iraqi embassy bombing in Beirut whose stated target was Iraqi PM Tariq Aziz or the Brighton hotel bombing, whose stated target was British PM Margaret Thatcher.VR (Please ping on reply) 22:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
@AntiDionysius:, fyi, I have changed the proposed title from "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks" (notice the plural).VR (Please ping on reply) 01:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose with multiple additional attacks on Beirut weapons storage locations in the evening of the same day, but not on Hezbollah HQs, a better title might have to be the 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks (plural, not singular). This is going to take a few days to sort out what all these multiple attacks did, and how many Hezbollah & Iranian operatives may have been targeted in the attacks, before a WP:COMMONNAME can really be chosen for the longer term. N2e (talk) 00:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
You're right about the plural: "The series of massive explosions sent huge clouds of smoke soaring above the densely populated Haret Hreik neighbourhood in Dahiyeh, southern Beirut, around dusk on Friday." France24's headline is also "Terror, panic as Israeli strikes wipe out Beirut buildings". I'll change it.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
That can be its own thing, the most notable thing here is the killing of Nasrallah, and that needs its own article. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Ultimograph5 can you clarify? It seems there were multiple strikes in the same location. For example, France24 says "The strikes killed at least two people and injured 76, Lebanon's health ministry said in a preliminary toll." Notice the plural.VR (Please ping on reply) 03:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Vice regent I suppose the word "strike" is confusing, France24 seems to be defining "strike" as one bomb while I was referring to the whole event which lasted like a minute. My definition is in line with other articles like Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus but I'm not sure there's any standard Ultimograph5 (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Ultimograph5 to clarify then, you'd be ok with "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" as opposed to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks"? VR (Please ping on reply) 04:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Now that it is confirmed he is dead, it still matters that potentially hundreds are dead from airstrikes on apartment blocks in a densely populated suburb. This article probably should just be called Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah (as it actually was when I first replied, IDK why), as I can't think of a not-unwieldy title that incorporates the civilian casualties in it, however we should have another article that goes in depth on the potentially hundreds dead.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont />
Killing is confirmed now but still think we need a separate article on the bombings. Selfstudier (talk) 11:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I think this should be its own standalone article too, yes. Although I think we can incorporate both the attack and the assassination in the same article perhaps? Otherwise two separate articles are okay too IMO. TwistedAxe 11:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Note: This was actually the title of the article when I first !voted, did someone move it and then it got reverted whilst this RfC was going on? </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 13:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the page was moved by a new user. We could just revert that but best to just let the RM work itself out. It appears we are approaching SPEEDY. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah. A bombing attack or any kind of hit that kills and injures many people among whom happened to be a well known military, political, ideological person could never be named "assassination ". Here, however, the overwhelmingly evident target was one single person, Nasrallah, a fact confirmed by both sides; no one argued that his death was incidental to a bombing attack against Beirut. What it all quite clearly came down to was an organized attack against the life of one specific person, an assassination effort that also resulted in a significant number of collateral casualties. This was an assassination, albeit a very bloody one. We should make of "2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike" a Redirect to the Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah. -The Gnome (talk) 11:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose - no reliable sources that I'm aware of are actually disputing the stated Hezbollah targets. Damage to many buildings doesn't imply much about what the targets were. The neutrality argument seems based on a hypothetical controversy about targeting which hasn't actually occurred. Also oppose Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah - my understanding is that assassination doesn't have a standard definition in IHL, but generally implies unlawful killing. A title focused on Nasrallah could make sense, but I would suggest Killing of Hassan Nasrallah, which seems more clearly accurate and neutral while also matching Killing of Osama bin Laden etc. — xDanielx /C\ 03:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    Why do you think it implies unlawful killing and what of the any number of reliable sources that has assassination? Who said this was an international law topic anyway? nableezy - 03:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    I guess there's plenty of precedent for both in reliable sources. Most sources seem to say both "assassination" and "killing" at some point. I did notice which say "killing" only; I didn't notice any which say "assassination".
    It seems prevalence leans slightly toward "killing". I still feel "killing" is preferable since it's unquestionably precise, whereas there could be questions about whether "assassination" is precise. Is there a particular concern with "killing"? — xDanielx /C\ 04:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    Precision. nableezy - 09:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    My understanding is that assassinations are only illegal under national laws, but not always illegal under international law. In this case, I highly doubt it was legal under Lebanese law to kill Nasrallah. If you want examples of articles called "assassination" when they targeted the leader who was at war, here are some: Assassination of Rajiv Gandhi, Assassination of Ismail Haniyeh, Assassination of Lord Mountbatten, Assassination attempts on Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler etc. VR (Please ping on reply) 05:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    There does seem to be plenty of precedent for both, both in the media and in related article names. Do you have a particular concern with "killing" though? Unless there's some problem with it, I think we should prefer the name whose accuracy is beyond doubt. — xDanielx /C\ 18:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    What source is doubting the accuracy of assassination? I have seen none questioning it. nableezy - 18:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    Well, AFAIK there's simply zero analysis in reliable sources of what language most precisely describes this particular subject. So that doesn't favor any particular name, it just means that we're on our own here. So yes, my argument is original research, but original research is okay in naming discussions, and is often unavoidable.
    Let me elaborate on what my OR argument is. While I don't believe there's any formal legal definition, this article by Michael N. Schmitt can help us see how "assassination" is generally understood in the context of armed conflict specifically (rather than peacetime assassinations). Schmitt defines an assassination as a "treacherous" and "perfidious" killing; it's not clear Nasrallah's killing fits that.
    I'm sure there can be arguments that Schmitt's definition is not universal, or that perhaps Nasrallah's killing was in fact perfidious, or what not. But this seems like a good enough reason to prefer "killing", the accuracy of which is beyond question. — xDanielx /C\ 19:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    What source disputes Nasrallah specifically was assassinated? Not what source do you feel defines the term to not include what you feel happened. nableezy - 23:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
    As I said we're on our own here, and must use original arguments, as there's no reliable source (as far as I'm aware) which takes any explicit position on what language is most appropriate to describe the event. That doesn't weigh in favor of either name. — xDanielx /C\ 01:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
    no, that makes no sense. If several reliable sources outright say he was assassinated and no source disputes that then on Misplaced Pages it is a fact that he was assassinated. nableezy - 01:25, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
    It seems like you're trying to invoke WP:V here, but in naming discussions we evaluate arguments on their merits, not based on the technicalities of content policies which we're not bound to here.
    I would argue that Schmitt's in-depth expert analysis of the term "assassination" carries much more weight. Journalists' use of a word in passing, with no discussion of its meaning, isn't compelling evidence that the usage was precise and not subtly wrong.
    In any case, your argument cuts both ways, with at least as many sources using "killing", so it doesn't weigh in either direction. — xDanielx /C\ 04:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
    all assassinations are killings, so no that doesn’t cut both ways, and absent any source that disputes this was an assassination it is an undisputed fact that it was an assassination. And no, a 2021 article has literally nothing to do with this article or its title. The idea that an RM has nothing to do with what the sources actually say and can instead revolve around editors individual views on esoteric topics loosely related to the article is not one I can really wrap my head around, so I’ll stop trying to. nableezy - 12:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose any moving. The strike was on the headquarters, and is a significant event in and of itself. There is nothing to stop other pages from linking to this page with a different heading, or to put in a redirect, but the strike was on the headquarters. This wasn't a sniper on a grassy knoll somewhere. TimeEngineer (talk) 07:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Nope. The strike was indeed on a specific place but the stated target, per sources, was a specific person: Namely, Nasrallah. One can trivially locate numerous statements by the Israeli government and the IDF explicitly and clearly confirming this. You will find not one single claim to the effect that the attack targeted Beirut in general or the Hezbollah headquarters in general. None, and we cannot have an article bearing a title that is not supported at all by our sources. On the other hand, we have a plethora of sources stating that this was an operation planned and executed to assassinate Nasrallah. (And there was no sniper on the grassy knoll). -The Gnome (talk) 19:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
For the record, ToI did write Israeli strikes targeted the Hezbollah military headquarters. They don't explicitly attribute that to the IDF, so maybe it's just their interpretation. The majority of sources do seem to describe Nasrallah as the (purported) target. — xDanielx /C\ 04:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
The statements made by Israeli members of the government along with the statements made by IDF's Chief of the General Staff are quite clear and leave no doubt or uncertainty about the intended target. -The Gnome (talk) 10:07, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

What happened on October 8?

Please see this discussion, and participate there, and then whatever is decided should be replicated here. Currently there is a WP:V violation in the article.VR (Please ping on reply) 12:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Are there still any violations in September_2024_Lebanon_strikes#Background? If not, the first part of the Background here should almost be the same. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah this looks good. We should also remove the POV tag from that article's background if there are no further objections.VR (Please ping on reply) 13:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Vice regent, I made a bold edit and transferred the relevant text from that article here. Everyone, please let me know if there are issues with this. Bitspectator ⛩️ 13:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Your edit was partially reverted in a way I don't agree with. Hezbollah had explicitly cited the killing of women and children as a reason for continuing its attacks. If we can say Israel's reasons for killing Nasrallah is his attacks on Israel, why can't we say what are Hezbollah's reasons for attacking Israel? VR (Please ping on reply) 15:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, agreed. The reasoning that we could also talk about rape during Oct 7 doesn't follow because it isn't part of the stated justification for either party in this specific war. Not sure if I'm allowed to re-revert. I do appreciate trying to trim down Background though. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
  • PeleYoetz undid the changes and introduced WP:V errors in the article. This, in spite of constant discussion.VR (Please ping on reply) 20:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
    The source says "Hezbollah and Israel exchanged fire on Sunday, with Hezbollah firing missiles on Israeli positions in Shebaa Farms, which is claimed by Lebanon and was captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, in “solidarity” with the Palestinians." So we should also state "solidarity with Palestinians" as per the source.
    Also PeleYoetz said "bombing not mentioned in the cited sources", but that's false. The AJ source given says "More than 500 Palestinians, including women and children, have been killed in Israeli air raids on Gaza since Saturday, with thousands of others wounded."VR (Please ping on reply) 21:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

POV issues

Lead pov

Very much like, we currently have NPOV violations in the lead. If we're going to put in Netanyahu's comment that Israel "yearns for peace", we should also put the Lebanese PM's comment that "Israeli aggression on Lebanon is a war of extermination". VR (Please ping on reply) 12:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. This war is between Israel and Hezbollah. We can put what Hezbollah leading officials say on this Galamore (talk) 13:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Israel destroyed 6 apartment buildings in the middle of the Lebanese capital. I think their reaction carries as much WP:WEIGHT as the Israeli one.VR (Please ping on reply) 13:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Lebanon's PM is severly weakened due to the massive influence of Hezbollah in his country (largest than the national army, a state within a state, etc.), I'm not sure how weight should be given for such statements. As a country, Lebanon is not really a side in the conflict, at least at this point. Galamore (talk) 13:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Yet his views are widely quoted and republished even in Israeli newspapers. Clearly the world — and most importantly RS — are interested in his reactions.VR (Please ping on reply) 14:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Vice regent it appears the POV tag was removed by @Prodrummer619 without any significant changes to the flagged section. -> Link to diff <- Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Background POV

Yemeni attacks

Yet again, the background is POV. It mentions Yemeni attacks on Israel, but says nothing about Israeli attacks on Gaza, where it has killed 40,000 people. We've been over this at Talk:September 2024 Lebanon strikes#More background issues.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

The attacks are already mentioned. Cambalachero (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:V and NPOV violation in the background again

I added the WP:V violation tag as there appears to be consensus that the claim that Hezbollah attacked Israel on October 8 is unverifiable. See Talk:2024_Hezbollah_headquarters_strike#What_happened_on_October_8 and at Talk:2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions#WP:V_violation. The consensus version of the background is here, that Bitspectator and I agreed to and is based on discussion with Lewisguile and Selfstudier here and here. People should really not be adding unverifiable information into an article that is on the main page.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Another option is to use the following as per my latest edit:
"A day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel and Israel began bombing Gaza, Hezbollah joined the conflict, claiming solidarity with Palestine. Since then, Hezbollah and Israel have been involved in cross-border military exchanges that have displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to buildings and land along the border." Refs as per 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike#Background.
I've posted this on the other talk pages, too, for convenience. Lewisguile (talk) 07:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The recent version uploaded a few hours ago is much better than this. It is much better aligned with that the leading sources say on the war's development between Israel and Hezbollah, and context from Iran's crucial role in the actions of Hezbollah, its leading proxy HaOfa (talk) 10:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
That one (which you have now reverted to) had some issues. I listed them briefly in my revert and also on the user's talk page (now deleted by them) here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?diff=1248409627&markasread=327733742&markasreadwiki=enwiki&oldid=prev&title=User_talk
In the interests of avoiding an edit war, I have now edited the text to make it more acceptable. I have moved the op-ed down to Analysis and given it appropriate in-line attribution. Lewisguile (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Tagging @האופה and @EnfantDeLaVille re this. Take a look at the latest version:
In Background:
"The day after Hamas's 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel, Hezbollah joined the conflict with Israel, claiming solidarity with the "Palestinian resistance". Nasrallah said Hezbollah aimed to "strain Israel’s resources" by forcing it to fight on two fronts." (Then continues as before.)
And in Analysis:
"Writing in The New York Times, Farnaz Fassihi said the assassination of Nasrallah eliminated a key figure from Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's inner circle, as Iran had spent forty years developing Hezbollah as a frontline defense against Israel. Fassihi said that Iran had, over time, activated a broader network of militant groups, including Hezbollah, to open multiple fronts against Israel, aiming to create regional chaos and pressure both the U.S. and Israel into negotiating a ceasefire with Hamas."
Hopefully this is more acceptable to everyone.

Lewisguile (talk) 12:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@Lewisguile the source, which says "Nasrallah, Hezbollah’s leader, explained that the campaign was intended to strain Israel’s resources...Yet Nasrallah instead chose a middle-ground approach of incremental escalation". Also, importantly it doesn't seem to include Hezbollah's main reason that they've repeated stated as the reason for joining the conflict: to stop Israel's attacks on Gaza. They've explicitly laid that out as a ceasefire condition. Hezbollah's and Iran's messaging constantly revolves around the human death toll in Gaza. Hezbollah warned it would escalate "because Israel is increasing its aggression against civilians and killing more women and children".VR (Please ping on reply) 01:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Feel free to add that in; I would support that. The source is an op-ed, and personally I wouldn't have relied on it at all, but its opinions do represent a significant subsection of people and someone else added that text in, so I was trying to iterate it rather than just reverting it. You can revert it if you'd prefer.
However, some of the things you mention about Hezbollah's aims are already in the background in one form or another. You don't need to refute the opinion in the Analysis section; just add other perspectives in there if you want. The reader can make their own conclusions. Lewisguile (talk) 07:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
The section already says "Hezbollah has stated it will continue attacking Israel until Israel halts its operations in Gaza.", so the issue should be fixed now then. Cambalachero (talk) 12:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes it is. I only pasted in the changed portion of the text, but that has been in there for a while. Lewisguile (talk) 12:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
It seems we've agreed on a version. We are trying to harmonize the background versions across the article. I'd request any feedback on the version go here, so we can keep the discussion in one place.VR (Please ping on reply) 23:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

And it seems the compromise was reverted. @Lewisguile can we stick to the agreed upon version? In the other discussion, I did provide evidence that Hezbollah explicitly stated Gaza casualties, including women and children, as justification. It seems POV to only include their "two front" statement (of which I can't find the actual quote), but not the explicit statement of "women and children", which was widely repeated in RS. Sources here again:

  • Hezbollah says its attacks aim to support the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, where nearly 18,000 people – most of them women and children – have been killed by Israel in two months. Al Jazeera Dec 2023
  • in a BBC interview, Hezbollah's deputy leader warned Hezbollah would escalate because "because Israel is increasing its aggression against civilians and killing more women and children."

Above, Bitspectator also agreed that their stated justification should be included.VR (Please ping on reply) 17:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy for you to re-add that. I swung for a compromise to avoid a future revert but the original wording we agreed is, of course, better. Lewisguile (talk) 17:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
@Galamore, can we get your eyes on this discussion too? I'd like to avoid constant back and forth, so if we can get you to agree to text, too, that makes it easier. Lewisguile (talk) 17:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Al Jazeera, Ahram, Voice of Nigeria... I am sure we can find better sources. In those I have seen - NYT, TWP and the likes - they don't use casualities when describing Hezbollah's statements. They usually describe them as "standing with Hamas", "standing with the Palestinian resistance", etc. If we gonna start describing casualities we should describe those who died from Hamas terror attacks on October 7, and more. I don't think we really want to get into this. Galamore (talk) 18:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
We had an RfC, and we found AlJazeera to be perfectly reliable. We can take this back to WP:RSN if you disagree. BBC is also a prolific source. Happy to take both L'orient le jour and Ahram to RSN too. And again I didn't remove the two front thing, rather I added the casualties thing. NYT saying "standing with Palestinian resistance" doesn't contradict Hezbollah saying "because Israel is increasing its aggression against civilians and killing more women and children." VR (Please ping on reply) 18:19, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
What if we just mention the civilian casualties in Gaza and just leave it at that? I personally don't think the women and children part is essential, because it's the same as Israel saying they have a right to defend themselves—i.e., it's just the usual sloganeering combatants make when they want to bomb each other, and it doesn't really mean anything. But personally, I'd also remove that stuff from all sides, so we should be consistent. If we can maintain that balance throughout, it's enough to say that Hezbollah entered the conflict because they wanted to show solidarity with Palestine and the rising casualties (though the casualties weren't actually 40,000 at that point, so we can keep it brief). Lewisguile (talk) 18:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree the 40,000 number wasn't around at that point, so sticking to statements, we can remove the 40,000 number and keep what Hezbollah said. We can even give the quote if need be.
I'm not at all opposed to mentioning Israel's right to self-defense. I interpret WP:NPOV as presenting all significant views, as opposed to removing all significant views. I think both Israel's and Hezbollah's views should be presented.VR (Please ping on reply) 18:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. Stroul, Dana (2024-09-23). "Israel and Hezbollah Are Escalating Toward Catastrophe". Foreign Affairs. ISSN 0015-7120. Retrieved 2024-09-29.
  2. "Hezbollah bombards Israeli positions in disputed area along border with Syria's Golan Heights". AP News. 8 October 2023. Retrieved 27 September 2024.
  3. "Hezbollah Fires on Israel After Several Members Killed in Shelling". Al Jazeera. 9 October 2023. Archived from the original on 1 November 2023. Retrieved 28 September 2024.

Infobox issues

Minor infobox note

Shouldn’t the little infobox blurb include that this was also a part of the September 2024 Lebanon strikes? The Wikimonger (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Infobox civilian attack

Is there a more suitable infobox than "civilian attack"? —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 14:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@St.nerol. The similar Killing of Osama bin Laden uses "Infobox historical event", do you want to make the transition? Galamore (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I just found the Infobox military operation, which is perhaps even better. We have the same issue at 2024 Lebanon pager explosions. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 15:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree, military operation should be used. LuxembourgLover (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Given that the attack flattened 6 civilian apartment buildings, I'd say the infobox is not inappropriate.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Which infobox would you prefer, @Vice regent? What about the content of the infobox? The lede and infobox didn't originally mention civilian casualties at all, so have added those in, but is it explicit enough? Lewisguile (talk) 08:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Selective removal of casualties

Galamore selectively removed the casualties from the article. The article said:

Health Minister Firass Abiad said the vast majority of those treated in emergency rooms were in civilian clothing and their Hezbollah affiliation was unclear. Qassim Qassir, a Lebanese expert on Hezbollah, said the attacks mostly struck civilian workers, leaving its military wing largely unaffected. Reuters reported that, according to an unnamed Hezbollah official, 1,500 Hezbollah fighters were taken out of action due to injuries, with many blinded or having lost their hands.

Galamore removed the sentences about civilian casualties, both of which are attributed to named sources, but left the part about military casualties, attributed to an unnamed source. This looks like an WP:NPOV violation.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC) VR (Please ping on reply) 15:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I explained my edits in detail in the edit summaries. Not all verifiable content should be included - it's a question of weight as I wrote in the summaries. Please be nicer and refer to content instead of editors, thank you. Galamore (talk) 15:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
But why are you selectively removing mention of civilian casualties only? Can you explain why it is UNDUE to mention civilian casualties of Israeli attacks, while it is DUE to mention military casualties? VR (Please ping on reply) 15:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Can you further explain why unnamed sources should have more WP:WEIGHT than named sources, such as the Health Minister of Lebanon? VR (Please ping on reply) 15:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
But there is mention of civilians. The article now says: "injured at least 3,500, including civilians." All the rest (statistics, expert views, ways of identifiying people) was totally undue and should go to the explosions article, it is way too detailed for this article. Galamore (talk) 15:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I think that edit is okay. We don't need that much detail on the pager explosions. Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Bitspectator Would it also be then ok to remove the unnamed source for the military casualties too? AFAIK it is really only reported be Reuters.VR (Please ping on reply) 16:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I prefer to leave it in as it's relevant to the escalating tensions between Israel and Hezbollah (in describing the effect of an action of one party on another party) which is what the background is covering. Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
I would also prefer to take it out as it's such a vague thing (an "unnamed source" is not quite the standard we need for an article such as this) but it has been used in other RSes. I think it isn't necessarily needed, since "including civilians" indicates some but not all are Hezbollah fighters. That's probably enough with vague sources involved. But it's not a hill I want to die on. I have reworded "including civilians" to "including many civilians". We could also go with "mostly civilians" instead, but that would add another ref to the sentence, so it may need rejigging a little to over-citing. Lewisguile (talk) 07:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I would agree with Bitspectator. Such amount of details on the pager explosions really belongs at 2024 Lebanon pager explosions § Casualties, not here. — Sundostund mppria 17:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. Chao-Fong, Léonie; Ambrose, Tom; Lowe, Yohannes; Belam, Martin (17 September 2024). "Lebanon explosions 'an extremely concerning escalation', says UN official, as Hezbollah threatens retaliation – as it happened". the Guardian. Archived from the original on 24 September 2024. Retrieved 20 September 2024.
  2. "Despite Gaza battle, Hezbollah-Israel mutual deterrence holds". The Arab Weekly. Archived from the original on 21 May 2021. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
  3. "Thousands of Iran-backed fighters offer to join Hezbollah in its fight against Israel". Naharnet. Archived from the original on 23 June 2024. Retrieved 23 September 2024.
  4. "The exploding device attacks dealt a major but not crippling blow to Hezbollah, analysts say". AP News. 19 September 2024.
  5. Bassam, Lailla; Mackenzie, James (25 September 2024). "Hezbollah's tunnels and flexible command weather Israel's deadly blows". Reuters.

Flag salad "Reactions" section

As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. Abductive (reasoning) 00:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I second the no flags thing, as there's actual policy on that, but the list reactions at least are easy to navigate. Putting them in prose can have weird effects when you group countries together. Lewisguile (talk) 08:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
As much as possible, relevant reactions should be limited to countries in the affected region and others that stand to be significantly affected, not some island nation in the middle of the Ocean. Borgenland (talk) 15:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
I suggest to include the reaction of the "crowds from the Idlib region of northwestern Syria" - https://themedialine.org/top-stories/while-opposing-israel-syrians-in-rebel-controlled-idlib-celebrate-nasrallahs-death/ - because these groups of people in this region have been directly affected by Hezbollah over the years, therefore their reaction is relevant. 1.145.26.98 (talk) 01:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
"some island nation in the middle of the Ocean" (meaning, a nation with no interests involved in the middle-east dispute) is unlikely to voice an official comment about this or any other related incident. There's no need to filter opinions ourselves: if they have something to say, the conflict is relevant to them for whatever reason. Government officials are not common X users, even if they use X to release comments, and everything they say, they say because it serves their national interests somehow. Cambalachero (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

"Assassinated" or "killed"?

The article begins saying, in wiki voice, that the leader of Hezbola "was assassinated in an Israeli airstrike in Beirut." But should we say "assassinated" or "killed". An assassination is the murder of a public figure, and a murder is a killing that is both premeditated and unlawful. Public figure, premeditated, it fits. But unlawful? That's a can of worms that should better stay closed, in special in such a visible article (it's in the "In the News" section of the main page). There are plenty of arguments that may be mentioned as to why this death can be considered lawful or unlawful; but "killing" has no such subtle implications and can be used without any problem. I suggest changing "assassinated" to "killed". Cambalachero (talk) 15:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

There is an RM in progress and the consensus appears headed in the direction of assassinated atm. Selfstudier (talk) 15:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
The RM is about the article being focused on the air strikes or the death of the terrorist leader, not so much on the specific wording. And even if the article was kept in its current name, the wording is still used within it. Cambalachero (talk) 12:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Sources mainly use assassination, that's why. Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Most sources do not have a NPOV policy like we do. Cambalachero (talk) 14:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
NPOV IS what the balance of sources say? Selfstudier (talk) 14:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 September 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Please change: "In July 2024, another senior Hezbollah military leader, Fuad Shukr, was also assassinated in Beirut. Late on 16 September 2024, the Security Cabinet of Israel established a new Israel-Hamas war objective: the safe return to the north of residents displaced by the cross-border conflict with Lebanon. This goal was added to the two existing objectives: dismantling Hamas and securing the release of hostages taken during the 7 October attacks."

to: In July 2024, another senior Hezbollah military leader, Fuad Shukr, was also assassinated in Beirut. Late on 16 September 2024, the Security Cabinet of Israel established a new Israel-Hamas war objective: the safe return to the north of residents displaced by the cross-border conflict with Hezbollah. This goal was added to the two existing objectives: dismantling Hamas and securing the release of hostages taken during the 7 October attacks. Rspjr1234 (talk) 16:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Kushner

@OdNahlawi I removed the bit on Kushner because he is a. a private citizen and b. somebody with no expertise on the topic. I dont think that merits inclusion in the article at all, and certainly not as "analysis". nableezy - 14:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree. I mean yes, he is today a private citizen, but he also served in the highest areas of Middle Eastern diplomacy so he knows the scene pretty well. I also saw Aaron David Miller on the Analysis part of 2024 Israeli ground operation in Lebanon and thought it's quite similar, but, okay, I understand. OdNahlawi (talk) 14:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Kushner??...Please. Selfstudier (talk) 14:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Miller is an actual analyst, with actual publications. I may not agree with what he says, but he has the credentials to be cited. Kushner, at best, was a political appointee with zero academic publications. nableezy - 16:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Aftermath: Other casualties

First sentence of second paragraph currently reads "Hezbollah also confirmed the death of Ali Karaki, Commander of Hezbollah's Southern Front, along with other senior commanders." The link on "Southern Front" links to a defunct group from the Syrian Civil War not tied to Hezbollah. I recommend the link be removed and "Front" be changed to "front" to indicate that he was a regional commander, not a member of a separate militia group. SadaharuWhoa (talk) 19:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Great catch, thanks. I have left the capitalization as is because that's what the source uses. Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)


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