Talk:November 2024 Amsterdam riots: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 19:45, 8 November 2024 editIOHANNVSVERVS (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users5,457 edits →Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024 (4): To edit in the Israeli-Palestinian topic area on Misplaced Pages accounts must be at least thirty days old and have at least 500 edits. This includes editing talk pages, with the sole exception being for very specific edit requests, which should be in the form of "change x to y for reason z".← Previous edit		Revision as of 19:48, 8 November 2024 edit undoThe Cheesedealer (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users517 edits →Edit Request: Add mention of "Amsterdam Pogrom" as an alternative naming: ReplyTag: Reply Next edit →
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	:::::{{talkquote\|as it is used by the mayor of Amsterdam}}		:::::{{talkquote\|as it is used by the mayor of Amsterdam}}
	:::::What is used by the mayor of Amsterdam? Because she said it reminded her of pogroms, that means we should use "Amsterdam pogrom" as a title for this article? ] ] 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)		:::::What is used by the mayor of Amsterdam? Because she said it reminded her of pogroms, that means we should use "Amsterdam pogrom" as a title for this article? ] ] 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
			::::::Furthermore, I don't believe politicians are reliable sources — '''] '']''''' 19:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
	:::{{talkquote\|feel free to remove my post from the talk page}}		:::{{talkquote\|feel free to remove my post from the talk page}}
	:::Which post? ] ] 19:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)		:::Which post? ] ] 19:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

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Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: There is already another article about this, Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam.

GrabUp - Talk 04:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I responded on my User page to your comment. I also started a Talk page on the Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam article to initiate a discussion about what to do about it. Cheers. N2e (talk) 04:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:ARBPIA

@Nythar: Should WP:ARBPIA apply here? GrabUp - Talk 06:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@GrabUp: It very likely does because the attacks are directly related to the current war and involve Israelis and pro-Palestinians. Nythar (💬-🍀) 06:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Requesting to protect: Daniel Case, Liz. Thanks. GrabUp - Talk 06:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel Case: Also other title in the same incident: Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam. GrabUp - Talk 06:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Are antisemitic attacks ones whose pages are protected? The New York Times writes: "Israeli and Dutch officials described as antisemitic attacks." And that "Prime Minister Dick Schoof of the Netherlands ... said in a statement early Friday that there had been antisemitic attacks on Israelis in Amsterdam, calling them “completely unacceptable.”"

If the answer is yes, at least can someone put those quotes in the article? Thanks.--184.153.21.19 (talk) 07:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The statement about the authorities has been added to the lede. ToadetteEdit (talk) 08:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Small change in the background section.

In the background section it currently reads “ The Maccabi Tel Aviv vs. Ajax match”. In european football the home team is mentioned before the away team, the current text therefore indicates that the match was played in Tel Aviv.

” The Ajax vs. Maccabi Tel Aviv match” would be the correct wording. Jjoonnii (talk) 08:40, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jjoonnii, thanks for spotting that! Will be changed shortly. ToadetteEdit (talk) 08:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Who did what?

The Maccabi fans attacked people, fought with police, and set off fireworks yet the article says they're the victims? What is going on here. LamontCranston (talk) 09:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@LamontCranston: Please cite reliable sources. GrabUp - Talk 09:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FOVHJx4HSpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPsIV3ZS6f4 LamontCranston (talk) 11:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Israeli fans provoked the attack

Reports are also coming from sources that Israeli fans first chanted anti-Arab slogans, vandalized private property, and even attacked a local taxi driver, confronting law enforcement. We should cover both viewpoints, not just label this attack against Israelis due to media bias toward Israel. GrabUp - Talk 09:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

There are also numerous reports that the attack was premeditated, prior to the game, with hundreds of perpetrators reportedly organized and blocking off alleyways and streets. This would debunk the entire biased narrative, which attempts to shift blame onto the victims of an atrocity. It is not customary for Misplaced Pages to engage in such rhetoric.

See these articles by DPA International and the Jewish Press, which claim that Israeli authorities had pre-warned the Dutch authorities, as well as this article by DW, which claims that Israeli authorities had already pre-anticipated tensions. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Neutral Editor 645: Can you provide WP:RS to back your claim There are also numerous reports that the attack was premeditated, prior to the game, with hundreds of perpetrators reportedly organized and blocking off alleyways and streets. GrabUp - Talk 17:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"There are also numerous reports that the attack was premeditated, prior to the game, with hundreds of perpetrators reportedly organized and blocking off alleyways and streets. " This is untrue. 152.193.72.78 (talk) 19:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

References

General question: Are Middle East Eye and TRT World trustworthy sources? I mean, we also don’t cite Al Jazeera here on Misplaced Pages, don’t we?--FPSalman (talk) 11:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they are reliable sources. Who told you we don’t cite Al Jazeera? GrabUp - Talk 11:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@FPSalman: Even Israeli news outlet confirmed this. GrabUp - Talk 11:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, Al Jazeera is Qatar’s governmental propaganda channel. I always thought Misplaced Pages was professional, but okay.--FPSalman (talk) 11:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@FPSalman: BBC is also a British government-funded channel, so is it also a propaganda channel? Frankly, yes, BBC is a biased news outlet towards Israel. GrabUp - Talk 11:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not just TRT and middle east eye, Times of Israel , Wafa, BBC all reported the same too Stephan rostie (talk) 12:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

TRT is a state-owned enterprise, and Middle East Eye has been criticized for bias as well. Generikuser (talk) 15:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Generikuser: What about BBC? Is it not state-owned? GrabUp - Talk 15:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a clear difference between TRT and BBC. TRT has been cited here (WP:TRT) as being unreliable in cases of COI. As the topic matter at hand involves Israeli citizens, Turkish government could be construed to have a conflict of interest. BBC has been cited here as being reliable as per consensus on Misplaced Pages.

DarkSpartan (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@DarkSpartan: They were not talking about what Misplaced Pages accepts or not; they were saying TRT is state-owned, so I gave the example of the BBC, which is also state-owned. Consensus can be changed, but that’s not what we are discussing here. Even the BBC mentions what TRT and the Middle East Monitor have stated. GrabUp - Talk 15:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@GrabUp: can I see the BBC link/s in question? DarkSpartan (talk) 16:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

There is no question about the BBC’s article here. GrabUp - Talk 16:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I ask for this as you may not use those sources (TRT or Middle East Eye) as they are both unreliable. You can use BBC source however, as it is reliable. DarkSpartan (talk) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@DarkSpartan: You can’t say that TRT and Middle East Eye are totally unreliable. Aside from TRT’s status, can you provide any RfC or consensus where Middle East Eye was considered unreliable? GrabUp - Talk 16:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Replying to the IP: I don’t have to get consensus for that, because sources like BBC, CNN and Times of Israel also mentioned that Israeli fans first chanted anti-Arab slurs, attacked private property, assaulted a taxi driver, and pulled down a Palestinian flag. GrabUp - Talk 16:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, CNN reported that Israeli fans were chanting racist slurs BEFORE the game:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/08/world/video/amsterdam-israel-maccabi-soccer-attacks-digvid

"Tensions were high before the game, with multiple social media videos showing Israeli fans chanting anti-Arab slurs and praising Israeli military attacks in Gaza." Fahimh (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it worth embedding a video of the violence in the article?

Reuters have confirmed footage showing Israelis being beaten up by rioters https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cwyge1587e5t?post=asset%3A714a11c4-6387-40f5-9b6c-483a712424ba#post now that there is a credible news source using footage rather than just social media, should we include it in the article? שי - LionFireKing404 10:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Does the video footage add any information to the article that isn't better conveyed as text? --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 10:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

in a similar vein as to how in the pager explosions article there is a video to better illustrate the text, there should be a video here too for context שי - LionFireKing404 10:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The video in the pager explosions article is from CCTV so can be used much more easily as it doesn't require compliance with WP:NFCC. The video you're referring to seems to come from X and seems to have been recorded by a person and there's no indication it is available under a free licence. Therefore it can only be used if it complies with NFCC which is quite difficult for a case like this unless it's particularly iconic. Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

add antisemitism to the "Motives" box

Many politicians and sources have cited that the attack was antisemitic as well as antizionist, it should be included in the "Motives" section שי - LionFireKing404 10:22, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You'll need to provide the relevant RS for this to be considered. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Number of people hurt in the attacks

The article now says "at least five." The NYT, updated a few minutes ago, says "The police in Amsterdam said in a statement on Friday that ... five people had been hospitalized ... Israel’s Foreign Ministry said at least 10 Israeli citizens had been hurt in the violence and two others were missing.... The police did not comment on the reports that people were missing." This is consistent as to the number injured with the two refs in the article currently.

The most accurate statement as to the number injured would seem to be: "at least 10 Israelis were injured, with five of them hospitalized." 184.153.21.19 (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Why trust a foreign body for the amount of injured when much more reliable local sources state it was 5? This isn't an attack perpetrated by the police so there's no reason to believe they're wrong, the IFM hasn't provided how it could have a more accurate figure than the country that runs the hospitals. Galdrack (talk) 16:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

BBC: Some Maccabi fans were "looking for a fight" according to witness

A witness reported seeing Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters on the Amsterdam metro "going up and down the carriages three or four times looking for a fight" according to the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyge1587e5t). An experienced editor might want to add this info to the article. Wikimicky1 (talk) 11:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

this article from Israel Hayom shows that the attacks against the Maccabi supporters might have been premeditated - מהתארגנות נהגי המוניות הערבים בטלגרם ועד גניבת הדרכונים: תיעוד מהאינסטגרם של אחד המחבלים | ישראל היום שי - LionFireKing404 11:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@LionFireKing404: Israeli news outlet also confirms it. GrabUp - Talk 11:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

the link I attached quotes "hang palestinian flags in the city, they will come like rats" as a message on a WhatsApp chat שי - LionFireKing404 11:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit request: change to neutral language

in the leading paragraph change :

but this was later denied

to:

The Israeli government has walked back on sending an IDF rescue mission to the Netherlands

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-government-walks-back-plan-to-send-idf-rescue-mission-to-the-netherlands/ 109.64.104.168 (talk) 12:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Pogrom

Pogrom label does not belong in opening paragraph, as much as it does not belong at the opening paragraph of Huwara rampage. Also why were all the paragraphs recombined to one? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Belligerents

The description of "Amsterdam locals" in the infobox is a bit too vague and generic. Does someone have something more on point it can be changed to? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone please provide context and neutrality.

The way this article is currently framed is that the Israeli fans behaved poorly and then as a postscript, there happened to be a riot and they were attacked. The lede now is all about what they did wrong and next to nothing about the actual riots. Could someone please straighten this out with some context and neutrality. The Maccabi fans interrupting the minute of silence wasn't nice but that's in the lede?? MaskedSinger (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the instigating aggressive and racist behavior by the Israeli fans prior to the eruption of violence should indeed be mentioned in the lede. Though i agree with you that booing during the minute of the flood victims isn’t that important or much related here.

As for the reason that there is not much said about the violent incident details itself is that there is not much things to tell, just a violent riot that caused 10 injuries after a football match, thats all. Stephan rostie (talk) 13:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of 2024 antisemitic riots in Amsterdam into November 2024 Amsterdam riot

Two articles, one topic. Wikishovel (talk) 13:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 November 2024 (4)

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected redirect at November 2024 Amsterdam attack. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Remove the motive in the infobox as no reliable source warrants mentioning the motive in wikivoice

And change "Pro-palestinian mobs" into "Pro-palestinians" to serve NPOV — 🧀Cheesedealer 14:04, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

Template:Infobox military attack appears to be the wrong type of infobox; can we change it to something else? BilledMammal (talk) 14:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I would go with Template:Infobox civil conflict. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@EliasAntonakos See when I said Go to the talk page and attempt to generate consensus for this; it's not obvious that this was an attack on only one side; there's no RS for Amsterdam's National Monument; no RS for car ramming; "mob" is POV?

Do not unilaterally revert multiple times. Please undo your most recent edit and join the discussion. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Perpetrators: Fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv, Pro-Palestinian groups

Defenders: Fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv, Amsterdam residents, Pro-Palestine groups

Motive: Alleged Islamophobia, anti-semetic and anti-Zionist sentiment

@Smallangryplanet @WikiJunkie Trying to fit both of these in a one-tab infobox results in an abomination. This is clearly a clash between two groups. Can we use Template:Infobox civil conflict? Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That makes more sense, yes. I'll go ahead and make that change now. Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:16, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed, good shout. Was trying to figure out which template would suit better, not sure how I missed civil conflict! Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@WikiJunkie we've discussed this change here, please comment rather than unilaterally reverting this edit. Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:00, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Move made without consensus

The Move of the article—from November 2024 Amsterdam attacks to November 2024 Amsterdam attack—made by User:Qhairun in this edit (diff), was made without prior consensus, and should be reversed until discussion is had and consensus is formed. Nearly all the sources used in the early editing of this article showed that multiple attacks occurred, in various parts of the city of Amsterdam, and thus the earlier article title with the plural "attacks" is quite appropriate; but changes should be done by consensus.

PROPOSAL: Move the article back to its original name November 2024 Amsterdam attacks. Move will need to be made by an administrator with privileges to do the switch over a name that is currently a redirect to this article. N2e (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Qhairun changed it from "attacks" to "riots", and @BilledMammal changed it back to "attack" here . I think they probably just made a typo.

Support it being returned to November 2024 Amsterdam attacks. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixed BilledMammal (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to both commenters on the proposal, and to the OM (OrigMover?) for changing the article back to the original name so quickly! Sometimes Misplaced Pages can do these things quite well and expeditiously. Would be okay to just archive this Talk page section now. N2e (talk) 15:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of Hakim Ziyech's response

under the "reactions" section, you could mention Notable People, former Ajax player and current Galatasaray player Ziyech posted on his instagram story, with footballer Eran Zahavi responding - see article - Zeish mocks Maccabi Tel Aviv fans: "When it's not women and children, they run away" שי - LionFireKing404 14:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Islamophobia in Infobox

Thesource for this doesn’t support the claim - it’s also probably given too much weight, given this allegation is a very minor aspect compared to the allegations of antisemitism. BilledMammal (talk) 15:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Per that article and many others, the Maccabi fans were doing "Anti-Arab" chants, seems pretty cut and dry to me as well as a significant aspect of why it happened. Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Probably Anti-Arab racism, not Islamophobia, then. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That would be closer, but to avoid WP:OR or WP:SYNTH issues we would need a source saying it is that - we can’t determine that ourselves. BilledMammal (talk) 15:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

How could "Anti-Arab" chants not be "Anti-Arab racism"? (Sincerely asking!) Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a very good question. It would seem that anti-Arab chants are definitely anti-Arab racism. Simonm223 (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:OR, to include a statement we need a source that explicitly supports the statement. That means that source would support us stating that anti-Arab chants occurred, but not that anti-Arab racism did, because that requires interpretation.

While the interpretation is reasonable, it is still forbidden, unless we can find a source supporting. Also, I still think we are giving it too much emphasis - it probably shouldn’t be in the infobox, and definitely shouldn’t be the first listed, given the lack of coverage of it. BilledMammal (talk) 15:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

So you're saying that anti-Arab chants can possibly not be racist?!??!? That seems like something of a stretch. Simonm223 (talk) 15:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m saying that per policy we need a source explicitly saying "anti-Arab racism". Do we have any such source? BilledMammal (talk) 15:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

No, that's not what WP:OR says. It would be one thing if RS mentioned 'chants' by the fans of the team and we SYNTH'd it into "Anti-Arab racism". But RS repeatedly mention 'Anti-Arab chants', and so unless you think there is some way that is not explicitly saying that these were Anti-Arab chants, I don't understand the complaint. Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

But just for you I've gone out and found a source! Content warning...

As reported by the Clash Report, the Maccabi fans, who were protected by police, “chanted anti-Arab slurs and a genocidal song in Amsterdam”, including lines such as “there are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left”, “Let the IDF win to fuck the Arabs” and “Fuck you Palestine”.

(https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-hooligans-cry-foul-after-instigating-riots-amsterdam) Smallangryplanet (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

a. Okay, here's a British state media outlet saying the same and an American state media outlet, plus plenty more.

b. Please explain to me in detail how "anti-Arab slurs" are not "anti-Arab racism"? Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we have that for this being "caused by" antisemitism, and being "part of" antisemitism during the Israel–Hamas war? I'm genuinely asking. I don't doubt that there could be sourcing for this, but I don't see it now. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"Per WP:OR, to include a statement we need a source that explicitly supports the statement."

This is not true it states: On Misplaced Pages, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists.

In this instance reliable sources are showing that they engaged in Anti-Arab chants which are by definition racist, it is not OR to say summarise an event as being racist if it describes the behaviour (but not the individuals) as racist. EG: If a celeb was part of these riots using that as justification to call them racist on their wiki would be OR but to cite that they were present at this riot and that it was racist is not OR. Galdrack (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 8 § Jewish pogrom in Amsterdam until a consensus is reached. मल्ल (talk) 16:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request: Add mention of "Amsterdam Pogrom" as an alternative naming

Given the frequent reference to the Amsterdam attacks as the "Amsterdam pogrom", I request that the opening sentence is reworded to: "The November 2024 Amsterdam attacks, also known as the Amsterdam pogrom, were a series of attacks targeting Israeli fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv occurred in Amsterdam, Netherlands, on the night of 7 November 2024."

The "November 2024 Amsterdam attacks" have also been repeatedly referred to as "the Amsterdam pogrom" - see examples such as these articles by Ynet News, the Anti-Defamation League, the Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle and Der Spiegel.

It is common for incidents to be referred to by multiple names, which are acknowledged in the opening sections of their respective Misplaced Pages articles. For example, see the article for the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, which also acknowledges the alternative namings of "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" (among Palestinians), "Black Sabbath" and "Simchat Torah Massacre" (among Israelis) and "7 October attacks" (internationally). Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

A concensus was already reached in this Move discussion of a alternative name for this article. Wherein the term pogrom would not be considerd applicable in this situation and the recent events that transpired. A pogrom is a specific variety of pre-meditated antisemitically motivated attack with intend to massacre and expel a entire ehtnic group, which has not been proven to be the case here. Using it as an alternative name at the start of the article could lead readers to prematurely assume that this definition applies, which would contravene with Misplaced Pages:NPOV.

Additionally, some sources cited such as the ADL, Ynet News and the Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle for example. May not be considered entirely neutral. This does not represent a consensus among reliable sources to refer to the attacks as a "pogrom". Besides that, Half of the sources mentioned above only reference pogrom in their articles within quotation marks, indicating that this term is not universally accepted or established as the correct descriptor for these recent events. This lack of consensus among reliable sources further supports the position against using pogrom in the lead.

For these reasons, I disagree with this edit request.

Imteghren (talk) 18:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Would you be open to the use of this term outside of the lede, in a section dedicated to news coverage of the attacks, or does your opposition to the inclusion of the term include the entire article?

I do not have ECR editing permissions, but at the time of writing, it is unclear that ARBPIA applies to this article. If a consensus is established that ARBPIA should be applied, feel free to remove my post from the talk page. Thanks! JohnR1Roberts (talk) 18:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

My opposition only includes to the lead of the article or as a alternative name for the event. As for mentioning it (as it is now in the current article) as quotations or statements by a person, state or entity I see no issue with it and it would not fall as a breach of NPOV. As prior context is established.

For example:

Amsterdam Mayor Femke Halsema condemned the attacks, describing the perpetrators as "antisemitic hit-and-run squads." At a news conference, she expressed deep shame, calling the incident "a very dark moment for the city." Halsema expressed that the incident reminded her of pogroms against Jews in Europe, emphasizing that Jewish life and culture were under threat. The city prohibited demonstrations for the weekend and granted police stop-and-search powers.

Seems totally a correct usage even if it includes the term pogrom. As it is a direct quote mentioned by the Amsterdam Mayor. Imteghren (talk) 19:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Support addition as it is used by the mayor of Amsterdam and not just certain media outlets Shadow4dark (talk) 19:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

as it is used by the mayor of Amsterdam

What is used by the mayor of Amsterdam? Because she said it reminded her of pogroms, that means we should use "Amsterdam pogrom" as a title for this article? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, I don't believe politicians are reliable sources — 🧀Cheesedealer 19:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

feel free to remove my post from the talk page

Which post? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I meant to say 'this reply', sorry. JohnR1Roberts (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

No worries. Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

What did the football hooligans actually say?

The description "Anti-Arab chanting" is a bit too vague. We all saw on social media them saying "let the IDF win to fuck the Arabs" which is also a part of the "there are no schools in Gaza because there are no children left" song.

Adding these quotes will help with understanding why the anger boiled so quickly. MiddlePathMonk (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Not done No source provided. Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

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