Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:35, 2 December 2024

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Conservative Party (UK) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7Auto-archiving period: 3 months

	Conservative Party (UK) was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 16, 2008 Peer review Reviewed January 5, 2022 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This  level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Politics of the United Kingdom Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics: Political parties Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Political parties task force (assessed as Top-importance). Conservatism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Section sizes Section size for Conservative Party (UK) (62 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 31,268 31,268 History 439 142,731 Origins 2,768 2,768 1867–1914: Conservatives and Unionists 4,592 4,592 First World War 1,980 1,980 1920–1945 2,086 2,086 1945–1975: Post-war consensus 81 8,115 Popular dissatisfaction 675 675 Modernising the party 5,332 5,332 1965–1975: Edward Heath 2,027 2,027 1975–1990: Margaret Thatcher 7,041 7,041 1990–1997: John Major 7,190 7,190 1997–2010: Political wilderness 6,772 6,772 2010–2024: Austerity, Brexit, and the pandemic 7,587 37,928 2010–2016: David Cameron 5,909 5,909 2016–2019: Theresa May 5,373 5,373 2019–2022: Boris Johnson 8,025 8,025 2022: Liz Truss 6,376 6,376 2022–2024: Rishi Sunak 4,658 4,658 Economic policy 3,813 3,813 Social policy 12,513 12,513 Foreign policy 11,669 11,669 Defence policy 5,070 5,070 Health and drug policy 3,426 3,426 Education and research 3,593 3,593 Family policy 3,274 3,274 Jobs and welfare policy 5,443 5,443 Energy and climate change policy 3,845 3,845 Justice, crime and security policy 1,622 1,622 Transport and infrastructure policy 4,743 4,743 European Union policy 2,574 2,574 Constitutional policy 2,235 2,235 Organisation 20 32,260 Party structure 2,970 2,970 Membership 5,336 5,336 Prospective parliamentary candidates 2,232 2,232 Young Conservatives 2,654 2,654 Conferences 252 252 Funding 4,855 11,204 Financial ties to Russian oligarchs 6,349 6,349 International organisations 3,121 3,121 Logo 4,471 4,471 Party factions 3,069 11,204 One-nation Conservatives 2,014 2,014 Free-market Conservatives 3,301 3,301 Traditionalist Conservatives 1,659 1,659 Relationships between the factions 1,161 1,161 Electoral performance and campaigns 2,050 20,661 UK general election results 18,611 18,611 Notes 1,075 1,075 Associated groups 106 2,798 Ideological groups 1,032 1,032 Interest groups 431 431 Think tanks 226 226 Alliances 467 467 Party structures 536 536 See also 409 409 Notes 74 74 References 33 33 Further reading 6,678 8,176 Historiography 1,498 1,498 External links 2,112 2,112 Total 252,801 252,801

Directly Elected Mayors Count

The article lists 2 Conservative mayors but there is only 1 92.40.218.87 (talk) 22:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC) At the foot of the infobox they claim to have 9 Conservative mayors in combined authorities, including Mayor Of London. Somebody please correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.236.81 (talk) 08:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Cambial — foliar❧ 17:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Right-wing to centre-right

This makes no sense.

Should be centre-right to right-wing like other pages. 2A02:C7C:75BE:B300:1C07:226B:DF20:61B3 (talk) 01:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: The greater weight of reliable sources supports the term "right-wing", thus it appears first. Other pages, such as Electoral history of the Conservative Party (UK), use the same. Cambial — foliar❧ 06:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources for 'right-wing'

Cambial Yellowing I would have appreciated you offering some refutation to the reasoning behind my edit removing certain sources describing the Conservative Party as right-wing in part or whole.

As stated in my edit summary, the Tories are in some of the present sources labelled 'right-wing' in a comparative way that assigns similar labels to other parties which are not broadly adopted on Misplaced Pages (CDU as right-wing, Labour as left-wing). It cannot be argued that this source's description of the Tories or CDU as right wing conveys the same meaning as the definition of right-wing as being beyond centre-right. This source was rejected by another editor when I raised it at Talk:Labour Party (UK).

It is important to note that some of the sources also implicitly acknowledge the party's centre-right elements, some implying it to be the default for the party.

In any case, there are needlessly many sources to justify that there are right-wing elements in the Conservative Party, particularly when some of these sources are evidently being mis-applied. I will re-attempt my original edit a couple of days from now if there is no dispute.

Also, the initiator of the section above is correct. 'Centre-right to right-wing' is the norm for a largely liberal conservative party or a broad church party on the right of the centre. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 04:59, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

“The norm” is determined by the weight of up-to-date reliable sources, not editor’s views on what they perceive the party to be. The scholarly sources do not state the party has right-wing “elements”, they characterise it as a right-wing party. There are no sources “being mis-applied”, and you give no indication of what led you to perceive this to “evidently” be so. There’s simply text reflecting what scholarship says about the topic. The greater weight of scholarly sources characterise it as right-wing, not as centre-right, hence that characterisation appears first in the description in running text. “Other stuff”-type arguments about a different article carry little or no force. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cambial Yellowing The application of 'right-wing' to the Tories in two of the sources is not being done to differentiate it from the centre-right, but rather – and only – to differentiate it from the left of centre. In one of these sources, the same sentence that invokes the Tories also refers to Labour as a left-wing party. Another refers to the Tories and CDU in one sentence as right-wing parties. This is apparent shorthand for a more apt description (right of centre i.e. centre right to right wing). I challenge you to contend that this is not the case.

Another of the sources only notes "an increasing turn to the Right" within the party. This is relative and factional. It is being misapplied and it implies the existence of a more centrist position within the party as well.

Another source (Bale) notes that trends in right-wing parties are evident in the Tories. Also note the source discusses the Tories in somewhat hypothetical terms ("any transformation on the part of the Conservative Party from a mainstream centre-right formation into an ersatz radical right-wing populist outfit"). No serious source would contend the Tories are a "ersatz radical right-wing populist outfit". The source is clearly being misapplied. It is not stating this is what the party is, but it is discussing a perceived trend.

Note also in many of the sources party ideology is not directly related to the primary subject. They can be expected to lack precision on this point as such, and clearly, some of them do.

Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 09:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Your speculation about the authors' purpose in characterising them as a right-wing party is a very weak argument. "the same sentence that invokes the Tories also refers to Labour as a left-wing party" - so what? This is apparent shorthand for a more apt description (right of centre i.e. centre right to right wing) - this is an entirely evidence-free claim about the source.

Rather than taking a battleground mentality of laying down an amusing "challenge" to other editors, you would need to make a persuasive argument, not merely make baseless claims about the real meaning of the sources that apparently only your special skills can decipher.

As to your claim that "No serious source would contend the Tories are a "ersatz radical right-wing populist outfit", that's precisely the topic of the book, and given it's written by a subject-matter expert at a leading institution, published by an academic press, and well-reviewed in both journals and the daily press, it is itself a serious source.

clearly, some of them do - the "clearly" in that sentence once again a product of your personal opinion. It's not persuasive, and it has no relevance to how we treat sources and represent them on this site. Cambial — foliar❧ 19:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cambial Yellowing You are correct concerning Bale's book, which I apologise for – I was relying merely on the provided quotation from the source.

The evidence for the misuse of the first two sources identified is established through their method of describing other parties, and their academic purpose. Going by the quotations, the only positions they identify are 'centrist' and '-wing'. There is no 'centre-right'. The sources differentiate the party from the left of centre but not from the centre-right. Note how the title of one of these sources refers to conservatism (a term just as well associated with the centre-right) whilst the quotation & bio use the term 'right-wing' – there is ambiguity baked into the language. That source weaves between discussing the centre-right and the right-wing but for its purpose establishes common terms for both, so it isn't applicable for the purpose that it is being used for here.

A source noting "an increasing turn to the Right" is once again relative and factional, but looking at it further it is simply a case of bad quote selection. Another source I located (2019) notes an opposite relative trend a few years prior – "Theresa May's party produced its most left‐wing manifesto since 1964".

More broadly, there is an excess of sources for 'right-wing' and a lack of academic sources provided for 'centre-right', though plenty exist. A series of neutral searches (insofar as the difference between centre-right and right-wing) revealed the following sources:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1853909 (see abstract)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1853903#d1e249

"Specifically, the centre-right contains Christian Democratic parties such as the German CDU, Conservative parties such as the British Tories or the French Gaullists, and classically Liberal parties such as Venstre in Denmark or the VVD in the Netherlands."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1853901#d1e349 (interesting to note Bale is one of the authors)

"Hard-line stances on immigration and increased political salience can be electorally helpful to a centre-right party if it can win, retain or regain ownership of the issue, as in Hungary, in the UK, and in Austria, where the renewed emphasis and restrictive stance facilitated by a fundamental change of leadership bore fruit despite the existence of a strong and established anti-immigrant radical right."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1853909#abstract (Bale)

"The British Conservatives – one of the world’s oldest and most successful centre-right outfits – are a prime example of a party that began politicising immigration long ago."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1776596#d1e225

"Although more moderate than either the BNP or UKIP, the center-right Conservative Party has been consistently more restrictive on immigration than other mainstream parties, namely the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats."

'Centre-right' is the standard ideological positioning for the Conservative Party.

Will Thorpe (talk) 05:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I've just inserted these sources into the article. I repeated one in the above list twice. I didn't realise earlier but these all come from the same journal, though they represent a number of different collaborating authors (even if Bale is present across three). Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 07:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The bizarre test you've invented for sources, seemingly created specifically to bar sources of which you dislike the content, is not a standard for verifiability on this site. The test is whether a source explicitly states what the article content states. The scholarly sources do indeed explicitly characterise the subject as a right-wing party. Your subjective opinion about what the sources "differentiate the party from" is not a useful or appropriate test. Furthermore, the fact that the sources you added all come from the same journal whose focus is a narrow issue only tangentially related to the article subject, gives them less weight in aggregate than the broad spectrum of academia represented by the consensus understanding of the subject as a right-wing party. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:28, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cambial Yellowing I'm frustrated that ours are the only opinions in this discussion.

I apologise for the arrogant manner of my earlier engagement – particularly to "challenge" you to disprove my assertion. The matter here is what in fact the sources are trying to convey and is a better dedication of your effort than attacks on my good faith and flippant dismissal of the question altogether. You are, with the full respect you deserve, an experienced enough editor (indeed twice as much as me) to know better. And likewise I ought to have been.

This is not a matter of original research; it is a matter of the correct interpretation of the sources – are their definitions of right-wing politics inclusive of the centre-right? Following, are they apt to differentiate between 'centre-right' and 'right-wing?', the sole purpose of their employ here? Each of these sources describe other parties in ways which are not supported on this encyclopaedia, and while every article is different, this is still instructive in how we understand the sources. They are engaging only in the dichotomy between left and right – which parties are on which side of the centre but not how close they are to it. You can read the sources for yourself. Two of them make no provision for the centre at all and the other one makes no provision for centre-left or centre-right. Their definition of right-wing is right of centre and that is all that is relevantly being discussed within those sources. Will Thorpe (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Some may define the centre-right as separate to the right more generally, others may define it as part of the right. We do not know how all these authors characterise it. We cannot guess, as you do above, as to whether they are engaging only in the dichotomy between left and right. We might just as well suppose that the authors in the Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies are seeking only to find a way to discriminate between the relative positions of, say, the British National Party (to which one article compares the article subject), and not to indicate how it is perceived on the political spectrum more generally. . That is, your criticism of the sources can be turned around and applied from the opposite perspective. This is possible because you are discussing subjective and relative interpretation of the sources (and, coincidence or no, your interpretation all biased to support the change you want to make the article) rather than simply reflecting what the sources explicitly state. It is not necessary to ping me on every reply. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

It is not a guessing game. The difference between the source that refers to the BNP and those others is that the former makes provision for the centre-right, the others only for left and right (and, for one, centre).

At this point, there are an equal number of sources for each descriptor, notwithstanding the arguable flaws in some of the sources for 'right-wing' and the lesser number of unique journals for those denoting 'centre-right'. This could keep going and so at this point little is or will be proven in this way. Will Thorpe (talk) 14:22, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

You write that "The difference between the source that refers to the BNP and those others is that the former makes provision for the centre-right" - exactly so. That source uses the term "centre-right" as a way to differentiate from a far-right fascist party to which the author compares the article subject.

Regarding this edit summary, the aim here is not "equalise" the sources in number but to simply reflect what the spectrum of sources say about the topic. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I think having ten or eleven sources for both reflects a failure. This shouldn’t be necessary and it will be possible to find more sources for both. I’m not sure what there is left to do other than look at other articles on Misplaced Pages, particularly with reference to which claims in which sources are accepted there. While every article is different, a game of finding more sources to top off an already excessive number doesn’t prove anything. Will Thorpe (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

May open an RfC shortly. Will Thorpe (talk) 23:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

finding more sources to top off an already excessive number doesn’t prove anything. This we agree on. Cambial — foliar❧ 23:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment on order of spectrum position

In the article lede, should the Conservative Party be described as 'centre-right to right-wing', 'right-wing to centre-right', 'centre-right', or 'right-wing'? Will Thorpe (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Right-wing as Centre-Right is part of the Right-wing spectrum. It's simpler just to use the broad term. TarnishedPath 13:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think you might have misinterpreted the question, as this is about the order of the terms rather that which terms themselves. Nonetheless, it is useful to distinguish where on the political spectrum a party sits in accordance with the sources. — Czello 14:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  There's no misinterpretation in TarnishedPath's comment, they simply looked at the question – should the Conservative Party be described as... – and found the options provided to be wanting. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Cambial Yellowing, precisely. It is always open to those participating in an RFC to arrive at answers outside of the defined set of the RFC question. TarnishedPath 01:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough. — Czello 11:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

• Anything more granular than "right-wing" is false precision. Policies, perceptions, points of comparison, &c., all vary and change. In general it is fair to say the party is right-wing. I think it is unhelpful to assign parties "centre-" and "far-" designations except where they use these terms themselves, since they often obscure both substantial policy overlaps and departures from strict orthodoxy. Regulov (talk) 13:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think that in common parlance there is a difference between 'right-wing' and 'right-of-centre'. Will Thorpe (talk) 05:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'd dispute that there is any differentiation in common usage. Anecdotal as it may be I generally see the terms used interchangeably. TarnishedPath 01:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

• I would agree - except that we describe the Labour Party as "sits on the centre-left of the political spectrum". So we would need to lose the center- if we wanted to avoid false precision there. Let's keep it simple - as has beeen said. But let's keep it consistent.Lukewarmbeer (talk) 14:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Centre-right to right-wing to have parity with other articles. — Czello 14:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Right-wing so as to avoid false precision and to represent the broad spectrum of academic statements on the topic. Right-wing to centre-right is a second, inferior option. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Centre-right to right-wing. Both are cited, so this is therefore fair and balanced. It’s also consistent across Misplaced Pages that we state the position closest to the centre first. Helper201 (talk) 20:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
• Centre-right to right-wing is best, given that as far as I can gather 'centre-right' is the dominant and most apt description. 'Centre-right' on its own is a reasonable second option, with further elaboration later on in the lede. 'Right-wing' on its own would be the least ideal, unjustifiably separating the Conservative Party from other mainstream conservative parties like it in the Anglosphere; a false in-equivalence if you will. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 06:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Centre-right to right-wing. Per what Helper201 and Will Thorpe said above 13:40, 15 November 2024 (UTC) Michaeldble (talk) 13:40, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
• Centre-right to right-wing per above Kowal2701 (talk) 22:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
• Centre-right to right-wing per WP:NPOV given the content of the article. -- DeFacto (talk). 11:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
• Right wing or right is the ideology of the political spectrum associated with conservative political thought. Anything more specific would be false precision and lose out from representing the ideology of some members/voters of the conservative party. Rigorousmortal (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

  'Right-of-centre' would be more acceptable. 13:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC) Will Thorpe (talk) 13:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Centre-right to right-wing As per the reasoning presented above. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Rename the article to "Tories (British political party)"

Per the common use reasoning in WP:MOVE, this proposal is a sensible proposal. It could be argued that from the position of the existence of the page on the historical British political party of the same name, it isn't overprecise or otherwise would cause confusion to alter the article in this way. However, it remains the case that Tories is more commonly used by reliable sources in the English language, that it is the most recognizable, natural, concise, and consistent name for the article. It is again its common name and is often referred to as such when referenced in other articles. This is therefore a double proposal: this article should take the mantle of "Tories (British political party)"; and the article which presently exists under that name should also be renamed to avoid confusion. Something to the effect of "Tories (historical)" would likely be sufficient.

I mentioned that this move would not just be recognizable, etc. but consistent with the naming conventions for other articles pertaining to political parties vis a vis their common English names. The Misplaced Pages community has a glowing example of a party's official name being disregarded in favour of its common name: the article titled Chinese Communist Party. This is obviously not the name of the party in any official capacity; the party's name in English is officially the Communist Party of China, but for the same reasons listed above its official name is disregarded for its colloquial name in the title, while its actual name is referenced within the article. There is no well considered policy reason for the Conservative Party (UK) to be a unique exception to this stance from the Misplaced Pages community. SuperUltraMegaDeluxe (talk) 04:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

nope...Tories (British political party) Moxy🍁 06:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I would ask that you read the argument before responding and appeal to specific Misplaced Pages guidelines and precedent. SuperUltraMegaDeluxe (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

You claim that it is more commonly used, but over no evidence to support that.

Actually, my worry is that your purpose here is not to improve Misplaced Pages by renaming this article, but to make a point about your wish to rename the Chinese Communist Party article. Please don't waste other editors' time in this way.--Escape Orbit 18:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's the BBC referring to the party as the Tories in an article today, as well as the Guardian and Bloomberg. Financial Times also typically refers to them as such. The three articles referenced also quote Labour party's Keir Starmer referring to them as such. The BBC has this article from a number of years ago about the distinction, and how the party itself doesn't admonish the moniker. If UK outlets commonly using the term aren't sufficient, I would assume party members themselves doing so would be. If the name being rather obviously prominent, used by UK and other news outlets, the party, and its opposition is insufficient, I rather don't know what would be sufficient evidence. SuperUltraMegaDeluxe (talk) 01:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

No per WP:COMMONNAME. — Czello 18:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. I rarely see them referred to as anything other than the Tories. Terrible Beast (talk) 02:20, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

• Former good article nominees
• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages articles that use British English
• B-Class level-5 vital articles
• Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in Society and social sciences
• B-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
• B-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• Top-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Mid-importance politics articles
• B-Class political party articles
• Top-importance political party articles
• Political parties task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class Conservatism articles
• High-importance Conservatism articles
• WikiProject Conservatism articles