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Revision as of 17:08, 21 December 2024 editRemsense (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Template editors62,140 edits Analog and Digital Computers← Previous edit Revision as of 20:22, 21 December 2024 edit undoAndy Dingley (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers160,451 edits Analog and Digital ComputersNext edit →
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::Is it the actual fact you believe shouldn't be stated in the article or the way I worded it which should be factual and I doubt any computer scientist or physics expert would say otherwise. ] (]) 16:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC) ::Is it the actual fact you believe shouldn't be stated in the article or the way I worded it which should be factual and I doubt any computer scientist or physics expert would say otherwise. ] (]) 16:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
:::No, the point is to tell you what is the case, and only what is pertinent. Usually that does not require explicitly ruling out everything that is not the case or misconceptions not potentially implied from a plain reading of the text. You think a distinction one could identify is interesting, but that does not deserve to be extrapolated out to a primary point of focus for readers because you've decided to confuse yourself on purpose about it. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC) :::No, the point is to tell you what is the case, and only what is pertinent. Usually that does not require explicitly ruling out everything that is not the case or misconceptions not potentially implied from a plain reading of the text. You think a distinction one could identify is interesting, but that does not deserve to be extrapolated out to a primary point of focus for readers because you've decided to confuse yourself on purpose about it. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 17:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
::* It's not a misnomer. Digital computers are digital, they work by digital electronics.
::: ] ''is'' fundamentally analogue. Aspects such as signal ]s, ], ] and (into the time domain) ] are all analogue and crucial to good design of their circuits. But once these low-level circuits are designed, they can be assembled into larger architectures with little thought as to their analogue behaviour, or at least by codifying this as some basic rules to follow. From that point on, they can be ''treated'' as digital functional blocks, without having to consider the underlying analogue implementation.
::: Once we're into computers, then we're even further abstracted. We no longer see signal levels or logic families, we're reduced purely to a 'bit' or 'word', because we'd never get anywhere otherwise. ] (]) 20:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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To-do list for Computer: edit·history·watch·refresh· Updated 2022-10-18

This article needs to be more focused on the topic. Here are good sources for people willing to improve it:

  • Code, by Charles Petzold

(feel free to add more books on the overall topic, not specific aspects)

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minor: “See also”

“Glossary of computers” and “Glossary of computer hardware terms” both point to the same page. Maybe one should be removed? I can't yet do that because I'm not verified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rafaelbeirigo (talkcontribs) 01:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Done :) OliveYouBean (talk) 01:34, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Linguistics in the Digital Age

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2023 and 11 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NNXXLLXX (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Nurbekyuldashov (talk) 01:52, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2023

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Image Colossus.jpg has wrong footer. Please change:

Computers and computing devices from different eras.
Top row: automatic mechanical calculator (1820) (difference engine), first-generation computer (Colossus computer)
Middle row: early vacuum tube computer (ENIAC), supercomputer (IBM Summit)
Bottom row: video game console (Nintendo GameCube), smartphone (LYF Water 2)

to

Colossus, the first electronic digital programmable computing device, was used to break German ciphers during World War II. It is seen here in use at Bletchley Park in 1943. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oriowiki (talkcontribs) 12:07, May 30, 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Paper9oll (🔔📝) 13:05, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2023

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remove \| from link to category \\] to \\] Robert Wünsche (talk) 15:29, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

@Robert Wünsche:  Not done: It's not clear, but I assume that you're referring to the line ] - this is not a link, it is a category; the evidence is in the rendered page where it shows in the category box at the bottom, and not as a rendered link. If you are asking to remove the pipe and space, these are intentional: see WP:SORTCAT and WP:SORTKEY. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Tim Berners-Lee

Hello. I was surprised at the absence of a mention of Tim Berners-Lee in this article, in the section about the internet. Having said that, I'm a perennial novice when it comes to computers, so I wonder if I've been misinformed that he 'invented' the internet (?)/the world wide web (?). I did recheck on Google and it seems that he did, but I'm aware that Google is not God, and I did only glance at the first few results. Paulb2210 (talk) 10:30, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

The Internet is the network of computers themselves and the underlying protocols that make basic communication possible. The Internet was first developed in the mid-20th century, culminating in the the Internet Protocol we presently use first veing published in 1974, authored by Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn. Berners-Lee was instead the primary inventor of the World Wide Web in 1990, which is the specific later technology that uses the Internet to share hypertext documents. It's a relatively common error to confuse the two. Remsense ‥  11:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, Remsense. Do you think Berners-Lee is worthy of a mention in the article for being the primary inventor of the World Wide Web? Paulb2210 (talk) 13:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't see him as a glaring omission from this article, as he only invented a particular piece of network software, rather than directly impacting the computer itself. Remsense ‥  02:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. But it wasn't 'any old' piece of software, was it? How might the computer have developed without it? I'm guessing the majority, or at least a significant percentage, of computer users use their computer for social media and streaming entertainment; do those rely on the WWW? Or would those be possible without it? Paulb2210 (talk) 14:06, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
How might the computer have developed without it?
Desktop and laptop computers were in essentially the same architectural state in 1990 than they are in now, including network capabilities. I concede that the web mattered a lot for the development of mobile computer form factors, but I still think it is okay that we do not mention Berners-Lee by name, given we do not mention Cerf or many other important figures in the history of the Internet, and we only have so much space. Remsense ‥  14:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, Remsense. Paulb2210 (talk) 15:26, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
How might the computer have developed without it?
Hypercard stacks were already doing most of it, hypertext, scripting, integrating Quicktime VR in the 90s to give a Google Street-view -style perspective (as seen in Myst) and we already had eWorld so without the WWW we likely would have just seen eWorld host more interactive content via Stacks. It may have led to wikipedia earlier considering that wikipedia is ideologically like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and technologically like Hypercard.
I'm guessing the majority, or at least a significant percentage, of computer users use their computer for social media and streaming entertainment; do those rely on the WWW?
Some such services are available both by using web-browser protocols and by using their own independent API that's independent of the web. Some are served only via public web and others only via private API. I can appreciate that streaming cat videos is likely subjectively salient at the moment just as not getting killed by bombs was the benefit "the majority, or at least a significant percentage, of" people got from computers mid last century. I very much doubt Turing envisaged computers would be used to stream videos of cats, so I very much doubt that we can accurately speculate what computers will do in the very near future.
There are other computer technologies "the majority, or at least a significant percentage, of" people do or will depend upon daily whether that's automatic transmission systems in cars, autopilots in aeroplanes, microwave ovens, pacemakers, hearing aids, et al and I just don't think the article would benefit from citing the names of the people who invented cars, human flight, cooking, medicine, etc. Turing's point is that if a process can be reduced to calculations, it can be automated -- and that's a lot more than just streaming cat videos. 49.195.26.187 (talk) 12:24, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Cleanup request

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I just read the History section and a few segments seemed pretty rough / poorly formatted:

  1. In 1831–1835, mathematician and engineer Giovanni Plana devised a Perpetual Calendar machine, which, through a system of pulleys and cylinders and over, -- if content was deleted from "and over" it should be restored; otherwise "and over" should be deleted.
  2. after working on his difference engine he announced his invention in 1822, in a paper to the Royal Astronomical Society, titled "Note on the application of machinery to the computation of astronomical and mathematical tables", he also -- a comma cannot do that; change to "tables. He also" as a new sentence.
  3. The metal–oxide–silicon field-effect transistor (MOSFET), also known as the MOS transistor, The MOSFET invented at Bell Labs between 1955 and 1960, It was the -- merge several run-on sentence fragments here into a genuine sentence: "The metal–oxide–silicon field-effect transistor (MOSFET), also known as the MOS transistor, was invented at Bell Labs between 1955 and 1960 and was the".
  4. SoC, and the flash memory is usually placed right next to the SoC, this all done to improve data transfer speeds, as the -- this is already a long run-on sentence by this point so begin a new one: "next to the SoC. This is done to".
  5. modern SoCs (Such as the Snapdragon -- there is no need to capitalise "S" in "Such"; change to "such".

Thanks. 49.195.26.187 (talk) 11:39, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done That whole section could use more care, but thanks for identifying some of the more egregious stuff. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Analog and Digital Computers

I think there should be a paragraph on digital computers in relation to the fact that currently all what we currently call digital computers are in fact analog computers simulating a digital computer. Too many people think they are actually digital rather than analog with tolerances to infer a digital behaviour. Suggested paragraph...

"While often referred to as 'digital computers,' modern computing devices are, in reality, analog computers that simulate digital behavior. These devices rely on analog components, such as transistors and electrical signals, to process information. By carefully controlling the tolerances and thresholds of these analog components, engineers can create the illusion of digital behavior, where discrete binary values (0s and 1s) are processed and manipulated. However, it's essential to recognize that this digital behavior is an abstraction, built upon the underlying analog nature of the physical components." 2405:6E00:2229:7BB:112A:78DC:C83D:41C4 (talk) 15:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

That's completely missing the point and would be a bad change to make to the article. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:20, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Actually explaining misnomers is very educational and should be in every article. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be all factual, and so many people grow up not realizing facts because of such and wikipedia is becoming more and more the source of truth for a lot of people.
Is it the actual fact you believe shouldn't be stated in the article or the way I worded it which should be factual and I doubt any computer scientist or physics expert would say otherwise. 2405:6E00:2229:7BB:112A:78DC:C83D:41C4 (talk) 16:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
No, the point is to tell you what is the case, and only what is pertinent. Usually that does not require explicitly ruling out everything that is not the case or misconceptions not potentially implied from a plain reading of the text. You think a distinction one could identify is interesting, but that does not deserve to be extrapolated out to a primary point of focus for readers because you've decided to confuse yourself on purpose about it. Remsense ‥  17:05, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
  • It's not a misnomer. Digital computers are digital, they work by digital electronics.
Digital electronics is fundamentally analogue. Aspects such as signal noise margins, output impedance, fanout and (into the time domain) gate delay are all analogue and crucial to good design of their circuits. But once these low-level circuits are designed, they can be assembled into larger architectures with little thought as to their analogue behaviour, or at least by codifying this as some basic rules to follow. From that point on, they can be treated as digital functional blocks, without having to consider the underlying analogue implementation.
Once we're into computers, then we're even further abstracted. We no longer see signal levels or logic families, we're reduced purely to a 'bit' or 'word', because we'd never get anywhere otherwise. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:22, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
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