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==Actors and filmmakers== ==Actors and filmmakers==
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{{Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Ammu_Ramachandran}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jonah_Chapman}} {{Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Jonah_Chapman}}
{{Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jack C. Mancino}} {{Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jack C. Mancino}}

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Actors and filmmakers

Ammu Ramachandran

Ammu Ramachandran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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No lead roles in any of these notable films; fails WP:NACTOR, and the sources are blogs, unreliable, and PR material. Also fails WP:GNG. GrabUp - Talk 08:45, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Jonah Chapman

Jonah Chapman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Sources currently cited consist of IMDb and some YouTube channels published by the subject. Searching the name alone turns up unrelated individuals; with some other specifying material added, some promotional material from an agency turns up, but nothing which would indicate notability. Seraphimblade 00:11, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Jack C. Mancino

Jack C. Mancino (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This article about an Hungarian-born British artist, actor and musician is poorly sourced. Large sections of text are unreferenced. There are seven inline citations, of which five are to IMDb. The one to the Chicago Tribune is geo-locked for me. The other just says "Feszültség és szabadság Lisszabonban", and has been tagged as needing a full citation since 2020. Googling the phrase led me to https://holdkatlan.hu/index.php/szemle/lapszemle/3559-feszultseg-es-szabadsag-lisszabonban which doesn't appear to mention this person, although I do not understand Hungarian. The list of external links doesn't include any reliable sources which could be added as references. I have carried out WP:BEFORE for Jack C. Mancino, Jack Mancino and the alternative name given, Balogh Csaba, and not found references to add. There is an artist called Csaba Balogh who may be notable, but his year and place of birth are different. I don't think this article demonstrates that Mancino meets WP:GNG, WP:ANYBIO, WP:NARTIST, WP:NACTOR or WP:NMUSICIAN. Tacyarg (talk) 18:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi! 1. please clarify which "Large sections of text are unreferenced". The newly inserted sections are films and music will be sourced soon. IMDb is a good source for referencing filmographies. Can Soundcloud, Amazon, Spotify or Apple Music or any other streaming site for music be used for referencing discographies? Thank you for helping. 2. It is possible that the owner of the referenced link has changed their site that was correct when it was inserted. This page has been on Misplaced Pages more than 15 years. Karlmayer5000 (talk) 20:39, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
Hi. The whole of the Biography section is unreferenced, as is the sub-section Early classical stage under Work, and the sub-section Music in the section Acting credits and accolades. IMDb is not a reliable source: see WP:IMDb. The other sites you mention are not reliable sources, but I don't believe discographies need sourcing - as with bibliographies, the existence of the works can be assumed. Tacyarg (talk) 21:00, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
thank you very much. Can you please point me web platforms that qualifies as good source of references to understand the policies. Karlmayer5000 (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Please read the reliable sources link and the guidance on your Talk page. The teahouse may also be helpful. Tacyarg (talk) 07:53, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Jack C. Mancino has written several comic books. Can I link them as references in the section I am about to make on this page called: Author?
Source link: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jack-C-Mancino/author/B0BZJGN477?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true NorAnditoth5 (talk) 10:28, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
Amazon is not a reliable source. If there are reviews of these books in reliable sources, those would be appropriate references. Tacyarg (talk) 10:42, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
In the Chicago Tribune article he was mentioned by the writer in connection with a Hollywood photographer's art painting collection and in the article Mr. Mancino's works were positively compared to Jean-Michel Basquiat who was one of America's most iconic abstract artists. 37.76.13.207 (talk) 09:49, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Please log in and only use a single account when commenting. (Assuming you are User:Karlmayer5000 and/or User:NorAnditoth5) The artist was only mentioned in a single sentence. A brief mention by a photographer is a clear example of trivial coverage, nowhere near the significant coverage requirement for a source to count towards notability as Misplaced Pages defines it. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 20:34, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
I have a message from Wiki not to comment with Karl Mayer,,,I dont know the reason. You guys look like just want to delete the article anyway so go ahead! Karlmayer5000 (talk) 07:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
wikipedia cant accept bio from the artists own mouth, that really needs an update, this article was created in 2009 used by wikipedia, there are many articles with much fewer sources still on wiki. Wiki must be about info and not about notability. Not every artist pays for mainstream articles to get attention. 2001:4C4E:28C4:3000:5DBE:155A:35DD:2FCE (talk) 08:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Delete I am unable to find reliable sourcing for the biographical or artistic claims made in this article. Source assessment of current sources below. --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Source assessment table
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTK2uNBdUZE No No No self published interview ✘ No
Feszültség és szabadság Lisszabonba incomplete citation ? Unknown
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2013/05/18/working-art-3/ paywall ? Unknown
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14840232/ No No No IMDB ✘ No
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8503240/ No No No IMDB ✘ No
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13094566/ No No No IMDB ✘ No
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/148014120-felix-gruber No No No Goodreads listing ✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
The source is by the Hungarian Ministry of Culture and Innovation. They probably need an update on this detail (they probably will correct this) because, before he turned to abstract art, Mancino started studying the Renaissance era (though he didn't belong to that era, he was born in 1968) He only learned from the artists who belonged to that era and used that experience in his early works, so he was compared to those artistic works in the early stage. They probably wanted to say (or just got lost in translation)," he was like a Renaissance man from the Renaissance era." NorAnditoth5 (talk) 08:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I take the point that there may be translation issues, but still doubting the source. It also says (again, subject to translation issues), that "As an influential Renaissance architect, Jack S. Mancino had a significant impact on artists and innovators, including Hungarian artists. Among them, Géza Mészöly and Viktor Madarász stand out as prominent representatives of Hungarian art life, who could draw inspiration from Mancino". Both of those artists died before Mancino was born. Tacyarg (talk) 08:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Like I said they need to update that section. Neither Mancino nor Misplaced Pages aren't responsible for typos or inaccurate sentences that appear in articles. The source is still from the Hungarian Ministry of Culture and Innovation. The two artists mentioned by you didn't learn from Mancino himself but rather also from the Renaissance era. I understand your concern and you are making a great job but I hope we're not playing world wide web typo police here. NorAnditoth5 (talk) 09:25, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Tyner Rushing

Tyner Rushing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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WP:BLP of an actress, not properly sourced as passing WP:NACTOR. As always, notability for actors is not automatically passed just because they've had acting roles -- the test doesn't hinge on listing acting roles, it hinges on showing reliable source coverage about them and their performances to establish the significance of those roles. But this is referenced entirely to unreliable sources that are not support for notability -- IMDb, a YouTube clip and a Q&A interview in which she's answering questions in the first person -- with absolutely no evidence of third-party coverage about her shown at all.
Obviously no prejudice against recreation in the future if and when she has a stronger notability claim than just existing and better sourcing for the significance of her career, but working actors are not automatically exempted from having to pass WP:GNG just because they exist. Bearcat (talk) 17:21, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Hey thanks again for helping me make the page more credible. To sum up, I added about 10 references - credible news coverage showing she is an actress of notability and needs a Misplaced Pages page. She is a lead on my favorite Apple TV television show. I propose we remove Tyner Rushing from the deletion discussion list. Slamdunkeroo (talk) 18:47, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Tina Albanese

Tina Albanese (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This person doesn't seem notable enough to me. I cannot find any news coverage about her. Aŭstriano (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Peggy Batchelor

Peggy Batchelor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Contested draftification of an article on a non-notable actor. There is no reliable source for the WP:OR claim that she was the oldest-ever actor who had appeared in Doctor Who (not that that is even a claim to notability). The source for this claim appears to be a Doctor Who wiki. She fails WP:NACTOR as her handful of roles appear to be minor parts, and they are sourced to IMDb, an unreliable source. She fails WP:GNG/WP:NBIO for lack of coverage in independent, reliable sources. There are a couple of articles in a hyper-local village newsletter (, ), another WP:SPS (), and a self-published as-told-to quasi-autobiography. As for WP:ANYBIO #1, I looked into her Fellowship in the Royal Society of Arts, but it's not a rare honor (there are 31,000 active Fellows) and can be acquired by online application and payment of a fee. Dclemens1971 (talk) 14:58, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

@Dclemens1971: Hello. I understand. However, what I do not understand is how some articles such as this one are accepted but not others. This seems like discrimination. There are people as notable as Peggy Batchelor or less notable than her who have pages. Please explain. Spectritus (talk) 15:04, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not discrimination in any way. It's about independent, secondary, reliable sources. IMDB isn't a reliable source. Wendover News is not likely an independent source. Peggy Batchelor's as-told-to, self-published autobiography is not a reliable, independent, or secondary sources. Pointing to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS doesn't make Batchelor any more notable. Dclemens1971 (talk) 15:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
@Dclemens1971: Doesn't the fact someone wrote a book about her make her notable enough? Also, may I ask how users are supposed to find sources if Misplaced Pages condemns almost all of them?
The author wrote a book "as told to" her, which means it's basically Peggy Batchelor talking about herself, and thus not independent. And the biography was published by AuthorHouse, which is a vanity press and thus it's a WP:SELFPUBLISHED source and not reliable. English Misplaced Pages does not condemn almost all sources; it has specific standards, and the ones you used in this article don't meet them. If you have questions about individual sources or sourcing more generally, please visit WP:RSN. Dclemens1971 (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Delete: Zero coverage found for this individual, acting roles are minor, would not pass notability for actors. A voice role in Doctor Who isn't the stuff of notability. Oaktree b (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Delete She was featured in only 1-2 episodes of each TV show she was in and played relatively minor roles in films. The article itself seems to be fixated on the (likely original research) trivia of her having once been the oldest person who had been a cast member of Doctor Who, which as we discussed in this AfD, isn't particularly relevant or notable. Waddles 🗩 🖉 01:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Note I agree this would be better in draft space. She also had a stage career, which has not been included in the article yet. I am sourcing and adding references and information, and will then consider whether she meets notability guidelines. If she is, the article needs editing, as it reads more like a eulogy than an encyclopaedic entry. RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:14, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
    Thanks. Spectritus (talk) 10:39, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
  • Keep Having found and added sources, I think that she does meet WP:BASIC. There are multiple, independent sources, some substantial, some less so, but they add up. There is coverage across her life in both national newspapers and local papers around the UK (around England, and also Northern Ireland and Scotland). The article could still use some work - I'll work on the lede and info box. RebeccaGreen (talk) 02:55, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, I cannot view the many British Newspaper Archive links you added since I don't subscribe and it's not available through the Misplaced Pages Library. However, I looked at a few of the other links you added and they don't seem to add up:
    None of these adds up to WP:SIGCOV. Can you better characterize the British Newspaper Archive sources so editors can properly evaluate them? Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:09, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
    As I wrote, I think that she meets WP:BASIC - "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability." The number of times a source is referenced gives an idea of the amount of detail in the sources - the profiles of her published in newspapers in Tyne and Wear and Cambridgeshire are particularly detailed, while the Belfast source has a bit less. There is more detail in The Stage article about the drama school she founded in Essex that I have not included. There is coverage over many years - 1925, 1938, 1947 all deriving from her appearances at the Wembley Tattoo; 1946-1966 in stage shows; 1970s-1980s as founder of a drama school and as a nationally recognised adjudicator.
    You mention that being a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts is not a rare honour. Being a Fellow of the Guildhall School of Music and Drama is - information online states "The Guildhall School offers the following honorary awards for distinguished services to the School and to the profession: the FGSM (Fellow of the Guildhall School of Music and Drama), awarded to distinguished professors, examiners and past students and the Hon GSM (Honorary Member of the Guildhall School of Music and Drama), awarded for services to music or drama and to the Guildhall School. Limited to 100 holders at any one time." That is an indication of her professional standing, in addition to the news coverage about her.
    I am not suggesting that all the sources contribute to notability - 3 of those you link to provide evidence of facts in the article (her appearances in two radio programmes; the date she left the drama school she founded; the facts that she taught at drama festivals as well as adjudicating, and that she worked at drama festivals in Wales as well as England and N. Ireland). RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Eddy Maday

Eddy Maday (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable actor with roles in only one notable film. None of the sources are reliable, and I found none with significant coverage online. I initially BLARed this to Presence (2024 film)#Cast, but it was reverted by the article's creator. ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Charlotte Barker

Charlotte Barker (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This has existed for 18 years without a single source which is actually about the actor, and I can't find any sources that are actually about her, as opposed to her being mentioned in articles about her father. Black Kite (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes it's kinder to delete. But I will bite and expand the article and let everyone else decide. (Perhaps there are 5k pageviews in the last month for a reason.) Cielquiparle (talk) 12:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Cielquiparle There is a TikTok "influencer" with the same name. Black Kite (talk) 16:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Right. Plus everyone else with the same name, like the Director of Film Restoration at Paramount Pictures. Cielquiparle (talk) 17:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisted to give Cielquiparle and RebeccaGreen a chance to dig up more sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 13:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Kurdish cinema. Vanamonde93 (talk) 02:01, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Karzan Kardozi

Karzan Kardozi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The director doesn't seem to be famous enough to own an article on Misplaced Pages. NameGame (talk) 17:32, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you define what "doesn't seem famous use Enough?" mean and what standard you go by? If you delete articles by the "doesn't seem famous use Enough?" reason, more than one third of articles in Misplaced Pages will have to be delete. Naderjamie6 (talk) 17:50, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
And how much "Famous" is enough for a Kurdish filmmaker to have its own article on Wiki? Can you provide rules and regulation for such "Fame?" Naderjamie6 (talk) 17:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
The reason given "doesn't seem to be famous enough" is not enough to have article deleted. The filmmakers is Kurdish, what kind of fame would required by Misplaced Pages standard to have article listed? Wendy2024 (talk) 18:03, 27 December 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE Spiderone 19:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a Kurdish Filmmaker and it is important to stay as part of Misplaced Pages. Citation and required link provided to verify the identity of the filmmaker. If this is deleted, then most of the other article about Kurdish Filmmakers will have to be deleted also if the reason giving is "Not famous enough". Joreannorde (talk) 18:25, 27 December 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE Spiderone 19:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep. He has written and directed dozen books and film in Kurdish, in US, UK and Kurdistan, and still active. Also many citation to show him as being known be it in Kurdish or English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BonitueBera (talk • contribs) 00:33, 29 December 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE Spiderone 22:22, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm not really finding much out there in reliable sources. This, paired with the large amount of sockpuppets, makes me wonder if the director should be mentioned on Misplaced Pages at all. There are some things like this, but so far it's really slow going. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:02, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
  • 'Merge per Mushy Yank. There just isn't much out there about this guy. There are a handful of sources here and there, but not really enough to show firm notability. I do think that he deserves to be mentioned somewhere, so the Kurdish cinema page is a good landing spot. If a non-sockpuppet can find enough sourcing I'm open to being persuaded. As far as the socks go - please stop. This is extremely counterproductive and actually makes it more likely that a page might get outright deleted and the person or topic not mentioned on Misplaced Pages at all. People will also become far more skeptical of the sourcing as well. The reason for this is that historically, topics plagued with sockpuppetry tend to be more likely to only have coverage in places engaging in paid journalism (ie, the person paid for someone to write about them). I've seen cases where good sources were questioned as unreliable. This is why it's such a bad idea - sometimes it can result in the exact opposite of the intended purpose. Rather than sockpuppetry, it's better to make a strong case with solid sources. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:12, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 00:24, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Karl Dominik

Karl Dominik (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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No WP:SUSTAINED notability here and highly promotional Amigao (talk) 17:20, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, China, Poland, and Canada. Spiderone 17:21, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Delete: I am unable to access the Shanghai Daily source in the article (source 2), and the other sources are all unreliable primary sources. By googling the subject's name in Chinese (凱洱), I found only one article mentioning him as part of the cast in a 2023 film called Variant. Even searching for the subject on Douban shows that he has appeared in only eleven roles, most of them are just cast extras and none of which seem significant. Fails GNG and NACTOR. —Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 05:54, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
    • This is the China Daily source that was also printed in the Shanghai Daily (it is a passing mention):
      • Hodges, Matt (2014-06-26). "Shanghai's star turn". China Daily. Archived from the original on 2024-12-30. Retrieved 2024-12-30.

        The article notes: ""I like the fact that most of the roles I've been playing recently are the good-guy roles, not the stereotypical 'bad foreigner' that seems to be all too prevalent in Chinese productions," says Karl Dominik, who owns Constellation talent agency in Shanghai. "I am daunted by the amount of Chinese I have to learn, but I love a challenge." Another of Shanghai's top foreign acting talents, Englishman Charles Mayer, had a high-profile supporting role in Yip Man 2 (2010) as a corrupt police sergeant in wartime Hong Kong. It was exactly the kind of racially charged role people like Dominik are eager to avoid."

      Cunard (talk) 11:07, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, Cunard! I guess this confirms that there are literally no sources with SIGCOV on the subject and reinforces my !vote. —Prince of Erebor（The Book of Mazarbul） 06:57, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Sandstein 16:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Frank Pando

Frank Pando (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NACTOR with apparently only one notable role rather than the multiple ones called for, and subject apparently requests deletion (see the Talk page), which should give a lean in a marginal case. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

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RJ Sarithiran

RJ Sarithiran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NACTOR, trivial coverage and passing mentions in media. There are zero sources that provide WP:SIGCOV to this personality. Nxcrypto Message 13:31, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Liz 05:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Aaron Refvem

AfDs for this article:
Aaron Refvem (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NACTOR. Absolutiva (talk) 05:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Valley2city (talk) 01:26, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Matthias Kirste

Matthias Kirste (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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An article about a living person without references. A proper way would be to go via BLP-PROD, but some references were previously in the article and were removed, so that I decided to try going here. Apparently the article was created and mainly written by a COI editor, and then almost everything was removed. Ymblanter (talk) 21:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Raegan Revord

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Raegan Revord (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Per Talk:Raegan Revord#Requested move 19 December 2024, this title was previously salted and the subject's notability is doubful. * Pppery * it has begun... 01:44, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

  • Keep, but... there is a pending AfC submission at Draft:Raegan Revord. Ultimately, the two versions should be merged; the draft has a lot sourcing given the repeated questions about passing WP:NACTOR. It's a borderline case at the moment, but a bit WP:IAR in this case, as thousands of people a day are looking for an article on this actress who starred in a successful popular mainstream sitcom, and the only star from that show for whom we don't have an article due to it being caught up in WP bureaucracy. The multiple AfC rejections caused the page to be salted, which caused someone to create it at a disambiguated title, and here we are, when we shouldn't be; the procedures have failed us in this case. So, merge the two versions and let's stop failing our users, topic easily passes WP:GNG. 03:32, 26 December 2024 (UTC) Mdewman6 (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
    Per the sources in this article, I don't see it easily passing GNG. People is mostly quotes from her, so is EW. Doesn't make them useless as sources, but not good from the WP:N perspective. WP:BLP-goodness of looper/thetab etc not obvious. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:00, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
  • keep Apart from qualifying for WP:GNG, she seems to have won an award at Family Film Award and a nomination at Young Artist Award thus may pass WP:ANYBIO, merging with Draft:Raegan Revord will be appreciated because the draft is with much information also if this article is deleted per WP:TOOSOON, draft has no reason to still stand ANU 06:05, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Women, Television, Advertising, and California. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:57, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Weak delete -- fails WP:NACTOR due to not yet having that second significant role, so best covered in the Young Sheldon article. The claim of meeting WP:ANYBIO rests on the Family Film Award, which does not seem to meet the "a well-known and significant award or honor" requirement by at least this basic sniff test: there's no article on it. Argument that other people in the show have articles and thus she should have one is basically a WP:INHERITED one. However, Draft status is a reasonable place for someone on the edge of but not meeting WP:NACTOR -- one significant role puts her halfway there. It allows us to maintain it while waiting for that second role. A draft does not cost us much, and it would be silly to delete all the work that has been done on it. If for some reasons this is kept, it would be better to merge with... or really, largely replace it with... the draft version. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 07:59, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep but it's tangled. First off, this is the perfect case why we should not religiously apply the rules. Revord is easily too well-known not to have a Misplaced Pages article, and deleting articles on actors that our readers see on their TVs for years in massively successful shows for the technical reason "that is their only notable credit" is a complete failure to be with the times. It also means popular actors below 18 are arbitrarily barred from having Misplaced Pages entries, simply because it is much less likely to achieve our threshold before you have worked in the industry for some time. Any rule that prevents editors from adding articles on main cast members of top 10 TV shows needs to go away. Second, this article must have become a personal quest for some Wikipedians to stop at all costs. It should have been accepted long ago, and far too many editing hours has already been wasted by me and others on the futile hope these editors would understand that there can be exceptions to the current NACTOR rule and that Revord easily qualifies as such. Sometimes child actors decide to leave the spotlight, and if that happens with Revord, we should first have the article, and then we can remove it, if it becomes clear that Young Sheldon will be her only significant credit for the forseeable future. That other articles with a similar level of notability (take Aubrey Anderson-Emmons for instance) remain unchallenged is likely only because of the arbitrary capricious nature of a process where a few or even a single editor can make it their personal goal to come up with whatever procedural objection that's needed to stop an article, zero common sense required, while not spending any energy on stopping other articles with more or less claim to fame. That this article weren't accepted years ago remains a clear example of Misplaced Pages failure, full stop, and this is our chance to rectify a long-standing mistake. CapnZapp (talk) 12:18, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Also, any argument for/against deletion needs to include everything added to Draft:Raegan Revord, which this article creator seems to have ignored/bypassed entirely. While that's not ideal, if we decide to delete this article, that will set back the acceptance of the draft for even more years, and that is worse than accepting this article (and then merging in the draft). CapnZapp (talk) 12:18, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
"Any rule that prevents editors from adding articles on main cast members of top 10 TV shows needs to go away." Disagree, quite strongly. The internet is bigger than WP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Strong Keep I agree with your arguments (and love your passion). I definitely think the draft should be merged because what's currently there is kind of weak, but a cursory look at the draft looks like it has more information and sources. So, I say keep the article and merge it with the draft. (I'm still semi-new to wikipedia (especially since I don't use it all that often), so I can't say I know all the rules (of which there seem to be many, but I can understand why), but is there something keeping people from just merging the draft right now? I thought that during deletion discussions people could work to improve the article? And incorporating info & sources from the draft would almost certainly improve the article? (I kind of wanted to do that, but I assume there's a reason I can't if no one else is?) MoreWomenOnWiki (talk) 02:33, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Marging is work, and doing the merge now might be wasted effort -- if we choose "delete", it will just get deleted. It's not necessary for evaluating this, since this article is not being evaluated based on its content but on its subject. It seems likely that if the decision is "keep", we will simply delete the article and move the draft version into its place, which is simpler than merging. (Merging is useful when you have two versions that each have worthwhile material that isn't in the other, but last I checked, that was not the case here.) -- Nat Gertler (talk) 03:32, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
  • Comment If this is kept, the draft should be back-filled into the history. As it stands, the accepted version in mainspace sounds nearly identical to the older rejected and multiply-declined draft. Therefore, the draft's history should remain to give original credit for those words. And this also casts doubt on the authenticity of the current article's editors' contributions as being truely their own, vs end-run around the non-acceptance of the older draft. DMacks (talk) 05:18, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. Consider this to be a more succinct statement than what I tried to say in my Keep but it's tangled comment above. CapnZapp (talk) 11:19, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Since there is a general acceptance in this discussion that the draft version is better (whether or not it's sufficient), might the simplest way to handle this if the decision is "keep" to simply delete the live version and move the draft into place? I don't quickly note anything from the live version that would need to be merged in. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 11:52, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep per Mdewman6, ANUwrites and CapnZapp. Subject has been working as an actress for over ten years and has had about 150 credited TV appearances, with most of those in episodes of a top-rated TV series. More than sufficient to establish clear notability for the purpose of having a Misplaced Pages entry. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Comment: Just to clarify, since you included me in your "per": There's lots of people with 100+ television credits that Misplaced Pages rightly ignore, if those are all bit roles. I'm not (strongly) arguing she fulfills the current NACTOR criteria (though I wouldn't be surprised if she is), I'm arguing Misplaced Pages's criteria are wrong if we can't add articles on young actors simply because not only do they need one successful show, they need two. This heavily tilts Misplaced Pages's coverage toward adult actors and away from young superstars, sometimes with massive online presences, that people are interested in but our stodgy project choose to ignore. But child actors aren't simply children whose integrity we should protect above all - these individuals and their parental guardians CHOSE public life. They clearly appreciate publicity more than privacy. (No, you can't be part of Hollywood anonymously unless you're a baby) Also, in this case Young Sheldon was a major show where it just so happened that one of its main cast wasn't bluelinked in the main article... and that was (of course) a female. Gender equality is another heavy argument to maintain an article on Revord. All this to say that if you "per" me, you per "so what she hasn't had a second notable role, here we should clearly make an exception from NACTOR". CapnZapp (talk) 11:17, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
This seems to be arguing that we should have lower standards for child actors than for adult ones, which seems precisely backwards to me. To the degree that a child actor is making any decision, they are not informed maturely in making themselves so public. There are several ways in which Misplaced Pages considers minors worthy of additional protection, and Ms. Revord is still a minor at this point. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 12:00, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for reading but my argument "this rule hurts child actors more" does not mean I want to lower the standards for child actors. I don't have any general issue with the 2-roles criteria, iff we accept that thresholds and rules have justifiable exceptions. The current standards demonstrably result in articles on actors (especially young ones whose careers are just starting) remaining absent until well after they have completed a seven season run of a top 10 show, which is absurd. CapnZapp (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Consider WP:MINORS (that essay is an essay). Having a WP-article is not an achievement, nor does it necessarily do the subject any favors. The older someone is, it's a bit more likely they have WP:GNG-coverage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
GTrang (talk) 15:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I think that's all too complicated. I think we should simply not worry about it for a few days, until this AFD is over. Then we delete Raegan Revord and if the outcome is keep, move Draft:Raegan Revord to Raegan Revord. If the outcome is delete, we just leave the draft where it is, as the draft of something that has a reasonable chance of crossing the notability rubicon soon. There is nothing in the currently-live article that needs to be saved. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 16:00, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
OK, I have added a fourth possibility to my list. GTrang (talk) 17:24, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Agree with that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Reverting non-admin close and relisting as an uninvolved administrator in my individual capacity.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 16:20, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Noting that there was a DRV at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Log/2025_January_3#3_January_2025. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
There is no reason to relist this. The comments above are clearly for the keep. This can be closed immediately. Marbe166 (talk) 17:08, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
You have made your position amply clear, both here and at the article's talkpage. DMacks (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

David Ayer's unrealized projects

David Ayer's unrealized projects (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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With a recent expansion of what is considered "unrealized", it's really gotten to a point I have realized these articles largely stand to be rather WP:TRIVIA and WP:FANCRUFT. As higlighted by @Erik: at Luca Guadagnino's unrealized projects, "if a so-called "unrealized project" is not talked about in retrospect, it has little value", and as per WP:IINFO, ""To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources." Just a contemporary news article about a filmmaker being attached to so-and-so, with no later retrospective commentary, does not strike me as discriminate encyclopedic content to have". I no longer see these pages being of note, and is just a trivial list of several projects, whether they were notable or not, that never came to be, their development or attempted production not being of vital note. Rusted AutoParts 20:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment: Why proceed with a single AFD case now, as opposed to having an RFC to determine if such articles are appropriate, and with what criteria? Erik (talk | contrib) 20:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
    Given the dialogue with Zander on Guadagnino's, it's become clear these pages are purely just seen as trivia. Some very few unrealized projects are indeed are of interest, but when looking at the page, and it's largely "X announced plans to make X, but never did", it just doesn't scream as being a vital article to have. Terry Zwigoff's unrealized projects is particularly exemplary of this. Rusted AutoParts 20:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Film, Lists, and United States of America. Skynxnex (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep: Perfectly standard. Sources. WP:SPLITLIST applies. -Mushy Yank. 01:32, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    A page having sources doesn’t make the topic of value. It’s a list of films that never happened, or didn’t happen with the person, which makes their involvement with it both not that important to the person, or the project. Why does a list of that need to be on Misplaced Pages as its own page? Where does this end then? Does this open the door towards “Tom Cruise’s untaken roles”? Rusted AutoParts 01:39, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    What opens the door towards "Tom Cruise's untaken roles" is reliable outlets taking "Tom Cruise's untaken roles" up as an in-depth subject. I.e. sources, and sources only - but the sources have to handle the untaken roles as an entity. Standalone articles about individual scrapped projects can't be synthesized to a Misplaced Pages article per WP:SYNTH. An article about a director's turned-down or walked-over direction opportunities survived AFD not too long ago. Geschichte (talk) 10:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
    And in my opinion it probably shouldn’t have. Clearly, what constitutes “unrealized” currently is too broad and thus it has entitled editors to include all these different projects that really don’t fall under “unrealized”. A lot of these articles have sections where it’s just like a sentence or two, and it’s about the director being “offered”, or being “considered” to direct something they never did. Or projects that were announced once and never discussed at all again, or even projects they’re verifiably still attached to and working on. That to me just makes these lists become flashy tidbit factoids that if the project was actually seen through with someone else it can just easily be noted in the film’s article, or the directors article. A whole article dedicated to mostly unproduced films with no notable production history is superfluous. Rusted AutoParts 14:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Offtopic fightpicking.

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please note that "Perfectly standard" or "No issue in keeping the article" are not guideline-based arguments.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 08:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe not (although common sense should incite us to believe that a perfectly standard page is very likely an acceptable page as standalone list/article.) But SPLITLIST is a guideline, and a solid reason for keeping list-formatted pages. -Mushy Yank. 13:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Mwijaku

Mwijaku (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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After observing the article being too promotional (still is), I moved the it back to draft space hoping for improvement that would follow a regular review at AFC but the original editor moved it back direct to the mainspace also nowhere in the references show subject's (important claims) like date of birth or number of children they have, where did the editor get them? That's WP: PROMOTIONAL, WP:COIEDIT and tries to use wikipedia as WP:SOAPBOX.

No any notable work listed show subject's importance, just a bunch of gossip blogs. Just a reminder, Misplaced Pages isn't a gossip blog/newspaper WP:NOTGOSSIP.

Refs: Only The Citizen is a reliable source, the rest are blogs that cannot be trusted on WP:BLP. ANU 01:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

As the editor of this article, I have made improvements by adding additional information from sources that I believe are credible. Please review it to see if it is satisfactory and help me by correcting any mistakes. 3L3V8D (talk) 20:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 02:13, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: As there is an unbolded Keep here, I don't think that a Soft Deletion is an option.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz 04:53, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. Beeblebrox 23:59, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Keely Shaye Smith

Keely Shaye Smith (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Notable mainly for being Pierce Brosnan's wife. However, notability is not inherited. All reliable references to her exist because she is Pierce Brosnan's wife.

Fails notability guideline WP:JOURNALIST --LK (talk) 09:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

  1. Novakovich, Lilana (August 21, 1989). "Food therapy for GH's Valerie". The Toronto Star – via newspapers.com.
  2. Slewinski, Christy (December 29, 1995). "Keely Shaye Smith turns her green thumb to gold". Chicago Tribune. ProQuest 291082310 – via newspapers.com.
  3. Fabian, Allison (January 1999). "Keely Shaye Smith putting her passion to work". New Woman. Vol. 29, no. 1. New York: Hearst Magazine Media, Inc. p. 13. ProQuest 206658619.
  4. Tschinkel, Arielle (August 5, 2024). "Who Is Pierce Brosnan's Wife? All About Keely Shaye Brosnan". People (magazine).

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The result was redirect‎ to Happu Ki Ultan Paltan#Cast. Thanks to editors who worked to track down sources. In the end though, they were not strong enough to convince other editors to argue to Keep this article. Liz 01:34, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Kamna Pathak

AfDs for this article:
Kamna Pathak (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Looking at the sources, it does not pass WP:GNG even. Mostly all the sources available on google are discussing her replacement in a notable show, see , , . Taabii (talk) 13:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

  • The sources are quite poor and not independent of the subject with claims and interviews. Subject fails the criteria for WP:NACTOR who did not have significant roles in "multiple" notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions; or made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment. RangersRus (talk) 16:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Keep The sources are reliable, and the subject is well-researched with verifiable claims.
𝒮-𝒜𝓊𝓇𝒶 04:06, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting for further discussion on the sources added. Keep !votes, kindly comment based on our P&Gs and after giving a detailed analysis of the sources based on those P&Gs with a clear rationale why the article should be kept, not mere statements saying the sources are good.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Benison (Beni · talk) 19:09, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 00:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. A source assessment would be helpful here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz 02:01, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

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Proposed deletions

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