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Revision as of 19:28, 8 January 2025 editCommunityNotesContributor (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers10,861 editsm →Requested move 8 January 2025: fmt← Previous edit Revision as of 19:29, 8 January 2025 edit undoCommunityNotesContributor (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers10,861 editsm →Requested move 8 January 2025: fix wlNext edit →
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] → {{no redirect|Social media influencer}} – The original name is short for the more precise name. The precise name clarifies the subject and distinguishes it from a host of other types of influencers. This page has moved back and forth between these two names for 2 round trips. This page is slated to appear on the ] in the ] section. I don't want the page name to become contentious while the page is prominent without having established a procedurally correct consensus. I would like to have a robust discussion and develop a formal consensus regarding the page name here now.{{Ping|CommunityNotesContributor|InfiniteNexus|Nnev66|Polyamorph|CFA}} ] <small>(] / ] / ] / ] / ])</small> 17:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC) ] → {{no redirect|Social media influencer}} – The original name is short for the more precise name. The precise name clarifies the subject and distinguishes it from a host of other types of influencers. This page has moved back and forth between these two names for 2 round trips. This page is slated to appear on the ] in the ] section. I don't want the page name to become contentious while the page is prominent without having established a procedurally correct consensus. I would like to have a robust discussion and develop a formal consensus regarding the page name here now.{{Ping|CommunityNotesContributor|InfiniteNexus|Nnev66|Polyamorph|CFA}} ] <small>(] / ] / ] / ] / ])</small> 17:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' Influencer is unequivocally the common name (). We have ] for other uses. <small>''''']''''' (])</small> 18:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' Influencer is unequivocally the common name (). We have ] for other uses. <small>''''']''''' (])</small> 18:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per ], ], and opinions in ]; namely that not all influencers are social media influencers, such as "traditional influencers", see ] topic. ] (]) 19:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' per ], ], and opinions in ]; namely that not all influencers are social media influencers, such as "traditional influencers", see ] topic. ] (]) 19:28, 8 January 2025 (UTC)


== Student athletes section == == Student athletes section ==

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Definition of influencer

Here is a description of influencer I would use for a page. I wanted to stay away from dictionary definitions. I'll keep reading up on this. Nnev66 (talk) 21:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Influencers are opinion leaders who independently shape audience attitudes through content like blogs, tweets, and other social media posts. Unlike traditional endorsers, influencers are perceived as more authentic and credible because they build trust by positioning themselves as experts in specific niches. They interact closely with their followers, fostering a sense of familiarity and forming what is known as a para-social relationship, which makes their recommendations more persuasive. Nnev66 (talk) 21:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I edited the article today with a different but related definition for influencer/social media influencer. Was hoping to have a more expansive one rather than a dictionary-style one, but if the consensus is to go with shorter we can leave it at that and return to it later. Nnev66 (talk) 03:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  1. Johne, Jane (2023). "Introduction". Effectiveness of Influencer Marketing. Springer Gabler. doi:10.1007/978-3-658-41297-5.

Did you know nomination

( ) Cavinder Twins in actionCavinder Twins in action Adrien Nunez as a basketball playerAdrien Nunez as a basketball player Moved to mainspace by TonyTheTiger (talk). Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 369 past nominations.

TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:38, 9 December 2024 (UTC).

Article name

I saw the “Influencer” page was moved to ”Social media influencer” by InfiniteNexus who also changed the opening sentence to start with "A social media influencer,..." instead of "An influencer,...". The page was then moved back to "Influencer" by Polyamorph and moved again by request to ”Social media influencer”; I asked why it kept changing and it's been moved back again to "Influencer".

Below is a list of opening sentences for the article.

  • Original (by TonyTheTiger): Influencer is a term traditionally associated with someone who influences others using inspiration and guidance, however, more recently the term has been associated specifically with people who influence and guide the interest of others using social media (also referred to as a social media influencer).
  • Changed to this (by CommunityNotesContributor): An influencer, also referred to as a social media influencer, is a term traditionally associated with someone who influences others using inspiration and guidance.
  • A more recent variation (also by CommunityNotesContributor): An influencer, also referred to as an online influencer, social media influencer, or social media personality, is a term traditionally associated with someone who is considered influential.
  • Most recent (by InfiniteNexus): A social media influencer, or simply influencer, is a type of Internet celebrity who is influential and well-known on social media.

I think the article name “Influencer” makes more sense as "Social media influencer" is a subset of this term. Also, I think the opening sentence should begin with "An influencer,..." (perhaps the most recent version using this structure) to be consistent with an article name of "Influencer". Can this please be discussed to see if consensus can be reached? Nnev66 (talk) 23:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

@Nnev66: Happy New Year, and thanks for starting this discussion. Looking at the page history, it looks like Polyamorph reverted my BOLD move at Jack Lennon Robbinson's request, but then this was re-reverted by CFA because JLR was a sockpuppet, and then again reverted by CFA following your request on their talk page. Although it was within your and JLR's rights to request that my BOLD move be reverted per WP:BOLDMOVE, "undiscussed move" is not a valid rationale per WP:BOLD, WP:IMPLICIT, and WP:CCC, as it does not say anything about why this title is problematic and consensus is not permanent. I invite you to share your reasons if you believe influencer is a better title. Both you and JLR cited past discussion in support of "Influencer" as the page title, but I see no record of this on this page; could you point me to that discussion?In any case, I stand by the rationale I cited for my initial move to "Social media influencer": influencer, in the context of this article, is merely a shortened form of social media influencer, similar to how a pickup truck is sometimes shortened to truck or the World Wide Web is often shortened to web. By itself, influencer is a generic term that simply means "a person or thing that influences another", and the term is also used in marketing to mean something else entirely. A social media influencer is a specific type of influencer that this article exclusively covers, and just because some have taken to using influencer for short doesn't mean this is the more formal and accurate term. For example, we still use disc jockey rather than its less formal but arguably more "popular" short form, DJ.I am happy to open a formal WP:RM if need be, but I hope this can be speedily resolved through this discussion. InfiniteNexus (talk) 07:32, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
I concur that the proper page name is more likely the long form for the subject of this page. We are not really talking about people who use their name, image and likeness to endorse over the radio, on TV, in print or other manner/media with this article.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:14, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks @InfiniteNexus: for explaining why you wanted the page moved to "Social media influencer". I hadn't realized the page was mostly about SMIs. I still prefer "Influencer" as I see the term more as described in the Definition section, but if you and the authors of the article prefer "Social media influencer" I won't object now that I better understand your rationale. Note I don't like the article's introductory sentence so when I have time I plan to work on revising it and adding to the article. I'll try to do things in chunks that can be easily reverted if there's disagreement. Nnev66 (talk) 20:36, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Nnev66, if you intend to make significant changes to the WP:LEAD, please try to do so with haste. This page was originally scheduled to make a main page appearance in WP:DYK on January 7. I asked for a slight delay because the page name and contents seem to be getting discrepant reactions. I am hoping to have interested parties resolve conflict so that people protecting the page will know what they are suppose to be protecting. Since Queue 3 has places that remain open, it may be put back in that slot for January 7 if things seem to settle down contentwise. Thus, it would be best if you tried to make LEAD changes sooner rather than later.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:10, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
I expanded the lead sentence of "social media influencer". If you don't like this sentence feel free to revert, and I won't edit the article for a couple of weeks until it clears DYK. Nnev66 (talk) 03:51, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
User:Nnev66, I must say that I chuckled to look at your User page talking about working on female scientists and rabbis and finding you here cleaning up Influencer. I am looking for content in the article about female scientist and rabbi influencers:-! The WP:LEAD is now a total mess in the sense that it is in no way a summary of the article. At the DYK stage, it is of course not important to have an exemplary article and we are just trying to get things ready for a main page appearance at DYK. However, a LEAD is suppose to be a summary of the article. Nothing should be mentioned in the lead that does not have greater or equal detail in the main body of the article. Right now the LEAD has a lot of stuff that is not mentioned anywhere else, which means that stuff should be moved to the main body with at least as much detail if not more. Some of this is my fault and preexists your involvement. However, you added to the issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
:) I’ve been participating in AfD’s the past six months and the term “influencer” keeps coming up so I went down a rabbit hole. In August I’d planned to work on it but I had other pages more in my interest area. I think my lead sentence is better but if you want to revert it that’s fine for now. I can come back to this after the DYK as I’d like to add to the body as well while trying to keep everything coherent. Nnev66 (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
I've moved it back per the consensus here. Future move requests should be handled through WP:RM. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been away for the past few days, so I missed the messages above. I am perplexed by this talk of there being "not enough" consensus for the move; consensus is implied if there is no opposition, not necessarily through explicit !voting on a talk page, and consensus doesn't have to be strong and clear for an action to be made. I already acknowledged that it was the two users' right per WP:BOLDMOVE to request that the initial move be reverted; however, the first user was a sockpuppet, and neither provided an actual reason for opposing the move and merely did so on procedural grounds. I then elaborated on my rationale on this talk page, and multiple users expressed agreement, indicating consensus. No new opposition has emerged, not even from you two (Polyamorph and CNC). As I wrote above, I will gladly open a formal RM if there is no consensus for the move, but as it stands now, we basically have unanimous consensus as no one has raised an objection (other than on procedural grounds citing a lack of consensus, which is a circular argument — you are saying that you believe there is no consensus because you oppose the move based on the fact that you believe there is no consensus). InfiniteNexus (talk) 09:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

User:InfiniteNexus, I was the page creator and have nominated this article at WP:DYK. I am trying to button up this page before it appears on the main page through DYK. I don't want it to be in prominent display and then have contentious issues related to its page location and then have no procedural basis to say there is a consensus in order to quiet things down. I would like to thus go through the formality of a WP:RM, which I think will relocate it to this name, but who knows. The proper way to go through an RM is to start at its original name when all the disputes began and then nominate it. That is why I asked if you would kindly revert it back to the original location. I know it sounds like unnecessary hoop jumping, but it will give us a basis to claim consensus should things become contentious when this is in prominent display on the main page. Regardless of where the page is now, I don't think there is anything wrong with finding out where it would end up if we followed procedure, which requires reversion back to the original page location. Circularity aside, it would be good if you would be kind enough to facilitate proper procedure.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 09:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Just to clarify from my end, true I did not oppose the move within the discussion, though I did support it's reversion (which does not require explict !voting or commenting on this talkpage either it's worth noting, even if helpful in hindsight). This was because the bold move had already been opposed and reverted, the reasons why being irrelevant at the time, because I didn't expect in a month of Sundays for the page to be boldly moved again to the same target without an RM. Especially by an experienced user who is very familiar with the process of WP:BUILD. If this was any other editor, it's more likely I would of raised objections or concerns earlier, had I thought the same editor would move the page again. I'd otherwise request that you move the page back to the status quo and create an RM for broader input and consensus. Beyond the procedural norms of why, the other reason is because I'm far from convinced you moved the page to the correct title. Even if 90% of the content is based on SM influencers, it misrepresents the 10% that are not SM-based influencers, such as traditional influencers. Hence "influencers" is the catch-all WP:COMMONNAME, whereas "social media influencers" falls just short of that imo. CNC (talk) 09:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Also what about sports influencers? I realise they are mostly on social media, but the reason they are not called "social media influencers" is because the reason they are influential (usually) does not primarily come from SM, but instead the sport they play. The entire basis of naming an influencer X, Y, or Z, is based on where/how they draw their influence (ie, sports, fashion, makeup, etc), rather than the medium of platforms they use to influence others. Hopefully that adds more context here. I realise there is a lot missing in the article, but the title should be based on WP:SCOPE, not the article quality itself, which remains extremely low. CNC (talk) 09:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Apologies for triple replying here, here are otherwise my thoughts on the article and it's scope #Types of influencers and scope, which is directly related to the discussion over the article name. Thanks. CNC (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
I view sports influencers as celebrity endorsers and normal brand ambassadors. They get paid to advertise on traditional media where they are recognized for their sports excellence and cross over to social media pay for hire because their sports excellence has gotten them a following. Social media influencer is a new thing where a person builds a social media following and then gets companies to pay to market to their personal following. I feel that this article should be about the latter. We don't need a new article to talk about celebrity endorsers. However, this should all be hashed out at a formal RM which could happen if someone would just move this page back to the original location.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
This is part of the point at #Types of influencers and scope, I'm not 100% sure on what types of influencers this article should be about. Potentially as you put it, it would only be social media influencers as that is where the notability lies. However historically influencers have existed prior to this, and while it wouldn't be due a standalone article per WP:N, it would be a relevant part of the history here (as touched upon to some degree in article, but not really enough or indepth). This is why a formal RM with broader input would help to settle the discussion, and also help me to make up my own mind in the process ideally. CNC (talk) 16:01, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I don't feel there is a strong consensus for the current location. I think an WP:RM is warranted. On the advice of @Polyamorph: and @CommunityNotesContributor:, I have requested the page be moved back so that a formal RM can happen. I have been at User_talk:CFA, User talk:InfiniteNexus WT:RM, WT:DYK and here to try to get someone to just move the page so we can have an RM with formal resolution of the page name. Can someone just move the page so we can have a formal resolution.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    I see now there's something called WP:BRD, which refers to a "Bold, Revert, Discuss" cycle, but I wish it was BDR, i.e. discuss first before reverting after the WP:BOLD move. I just had a question for the latest page mover, who was CFA, to find out what was going on but wasn't expecting them to revert it, i.e. I didn't understand my question constituted contesting the page move. InfiniteNexus's explanation helped me understand that the way the term "Influencer" is used today usually refers to a "Social media influencer"; the term "influencer" while used historically before social media times, wasn't used nearly as frequently as it is today. I'd recommend anyone moving a prominent page name to put a note on it's Talk page so that folks like me with questions can ask them and avoid what happened here. I can understand TonyTheTiger wanting to make sure no one else comes out of the woodwork to protest the name of the "Social media influencer" article, but hopefully now that there has been discussion about it, if someone had an opinion they would have jumped in here by now. Just to be clear, I do not oppose keeping the page name "Social media influencer" instead of "Influencer". I don't fully understand the WP:RM process and whether this discussion here can stand in for it or if something formal needs to happen. Nnev66 (talk) 15:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
    BRD is how wikipedia works. For page moves, a formal RM is required regardless of the reason a bold page move is contested. It's far from clear why we should use a title that isn't the common name. After the formal RM a page mover or admin will assess consensus neutrally and close the discussion. RM discussions are always marked prominently on the talk page when they are closed, whether the result is moved or not moved. Polyamorph (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
  •  Done page moved per Tony's request. Please open a formal WP:RM if you want to change the title. Polyamorph (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Requested move 8 January 2025

It has been proposed in this section that Influencer be renamed and moved to Social media influencer.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Influencer → Social media influencer – The original name is short for the more precise name. The precise name clarifies the subject and distinguishes it from a host of other types of influencers. This page has moved back and forth between these two names for 2 round trips. This page is slated to appear on the main page in the WP:DYK section. I don't want the page name to become contentious while the page is prominent without having established a procedurally correct consensus. I would like to have a robust discussion and develop a formal consensus regarding the page name here now.@CommunityNotesContributor, InfiniteNexus, Nnev66, Polyamorph, and CFA: TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Student athletes section

@Thenewwave: You reverted, so per BRD I guess let's talk about this out here. I don't have a huge stake in whether the article mentions the section or not, but I'm puzzled as to why it should stay in when the cited source doesn't verify half the content or even explain why student athletes are relevant to this topic. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:05, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

user:theleekycauldron, I just added some sourced content.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:17, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I appreciate the new content! However, it doesn't really fix the problems with the original content, and also, I'm not quite sure how one can use the name, image and likelness of their personal brand as influencers? theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:35, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
user:theleekycauldron, First off, I have fixed the typo. Thx for noticing and pointing it out. Secondly, you have just prompted me to read Personal branding. Let me absorb this and consider how to address your concerns. Would you care to chime in at WT:DYK whether this page should maintain its current slotting to run on the main page in 3 days or whether we should ask for it to be pulled for a week as I have requested. As experienced as I am at DYK, I rarely am involved in content discrepancies in the final days before a DYK run and you may have a different perspective than me on this issue.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:59, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
The first of the four citations I added says: "college athletes can now earn money from sponsorship or public appearance". For starters, I read sponsorship to mean influencer for hire. Further, it is the name, image and likeness that is being transacted for.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:25, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
I understand personal brand to be the strategy behind the way one presents one's name, image and likeness. For example, Nunez' brand is humorous and carefree, often presented in the context of hip music with in scenarios that sometime involve dancing. His brand is also conscious of the confusion involved in interpreting how perceptions of actions are interpretted in the context of a significant relationship. His brand is also fashion conscious. Other celebrity endorsers might decide that their personal brand presents name, image and likeness in contexts that focus on fast cars, makeup, fashion accessories, modern technology, family, home decor, sporting activity or whatever.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:40, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
user:theleekycauldron, I see that you did remove this from the January 7/Queue3/Prep3 position. I am certainly open to any thoughts regarding my interpretation of sources and the content that is included. Feel free to speak up if I am not thinking clearly or seem to just be wrong.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:13, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
I have just swapped in better sources for Nunez, that address your points a little more clearly.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
user:theleekycauldron, Although I don't think it should be required for DYK, I am wondering if you want to comment with any suggested wording change. Maybe I need to change a proposition or something minor.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:23, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
Hi, may take me a bit to respond here, but have read :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 06:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
To clarify, I only reverted due to a new account reverting with no edit summary (which is rarely ever a good revert). I've since read WP:BRANDNEW, and am not invested in the content after helping to assemble this misshapen article. CNC (talk) 18:29, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Types of influencers and scope

Based on the topic above, #Article name, I thought it'd be worth some pre-RM brainstorming regarding the WP:SCOPE of the article, that based on previous consensus (albeit weak consensus imo) that the scope is "Influencer".

As this subject has become my nemesis in regards to finding reliable sources, I'm adding sub-topics that require expanding or including into the article based on such scope. Please reference any RS if you have them.

  • Social media influencer  Done, referenced in article, could do with expansion/distinguishing
    • Fashion influencer  Partly done, referenced in lead, no summary of child article in body
    • Travel influencer  Partly done, referenced in lead, no summary of child article in body
    • Virtual influencer  Partly done, referenced in lead, no summary of child article in body
  • Sports influencer  Not done, no reference, requires reliable sourcing
  • Traditional influencer  Not done, no reference, requires reliable sourcing

Are there any others I am missing? I won't bother referencing TikTok influencers or Instagrammers, etc, as these would all come under the bracket of social media influencers that doesn't require further distinguishing. CNC (talk) 10:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

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