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Montenegrin or Serbian

Here, I'll start a topic for the discussion, then. Figure something out, you two, because this daily reverting is silly. And play nice. --CrnaGora 10:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd gladly discuss over. Personally I thought that presented sources in the article themselves speak enough.

However I don't know to what extent is Critika1's good will. He called 5 times users so far "Chetniks" (racist ethnic slur), including me, ignores all warnings and you well alone know what he's doing at the Montenegrin language article. --PaxEquilibrium 14:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Argument

First off, I want to say that I don't see what precisely makes the Balshics "Montenegrin". Sure, they are a part of Montenegrin history, but they most definitely do not historically belong to that part (perhaps the Crnojevics do, but he does not). I myself do not understand the division of Montenegrins on "real Montenegrins" and "Serbs" and think that the 200,000 Serbs should return themselves to what they were (Montenegrins) before they ticked "Serb" on the 2003 census, to end this troublesome rift amongst the Montenegrin people, but who am I to tell people who/what they are? It's just as so that I cannot see that sometimes, the Serbian identity that is cannot be separated from Montenegrin history is openly denied (nationalist arguments if Montenegrins are "really Serbs" do not speak in support of this - anyone is whatever he wants to be, and I'm convinced that most of us will have Illyrian blood, rather than Slavic!)

To point at the beginning - the Balsics were obviously of non-Slavic origins. The theory on the Vlach origin is perhaps the most true one - in which case the family was Slavicized due to the impressive culture of the Serbian Kingdom/Empire (Vlachs were easily subjected to assimilation).

In the times of dying-out Doclea and the age of Zeta, there were 4 peoples altogether in Montenegro, as testified by King Stefan Milutin, by Jelena Balsic, by Stefan Decanski, by Ivan Crnojevic, by Djuradj Balsic, by princess Milica and by Stefan Uros: Serbs, Albanians, Latins (sometimes called Romans) and Vlachs. Taking to granted the Balsics were Vlachs, then they probably assimilated into Serbs.

Next point: Đurađ I of Zeta was the one who convened the Council of the Serbian Orthodox Church in 1375, "disappointed in the lack of organization in the Serbian people".

Critika expressed how they cannot be Serbs because they separated from Serbia - I'll answer with a counter-question: Why did Kosovo under the Brankovics separate Serbia? Why did Moravia under the Lazarevics separate? Why did in the feudal anarchy all that remain remained Macedonia of the Mrnjavcevics?

I'll upload the coins that the Balsics forged (I think I have a photo of one somewhere) and it says "Serb Lords, the Balsics".

In the very end, the Balsics desired a reunification of Serbia and Balša III left Zeta in heritage of the Serbian Despot, whom he saw as the possible re-forger of the lost Serbian realm.

So if nothing, it makes at least insane to remove the categories from the article.

P.S. I do not now what is more weirder, this which is Critika1 doing in here - or User:Nikola Smolenski removing Montenegrin from Nicholas I of Montenegro. --PaxEquilibrium 15:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Quoting Encyclopedia Britannica:

Although the Serbs have come to be identified closely with the Eastern Orthodox tradition of Christianity, it is an important indication of the continuing marginality of Zeta that Michael, the first of its rulers to claim the title king, had this honour bestowed on him by Pope Gregory VII in 1077. It was only under the later Nemanjic rulers that the ecclesiastical allegiance of the Serbs to Constantinople was finally confirmed. On the death of Stefan Dusan in 1355, the Nemanjic empire began to crumble, and its holdings were divided among the knez (prince) Lazar Hrebeljanovic, the short-lived Bosnian state of Tvrtko I (reigned 1353-91), and a semi-independent chiefdom of Zeta under the house of Balsa, with its capital at Skadar. Serb disunity coincided fatefully with the arrival in the Balkans of the Ottoman armies, and in 1389 Lazar fell to the forces of Sultan Murad I at the Battle of Kosovo.

After the Balsic dynasty died out in 1421, the focus of Serb resistance shifted northward to Zabljak (south of Podgorica). There a chieftain named Stefan Crnojevic set up his capital. Stefan was succeeded by Ivan the Black, who, in the unlikely setting of this barren and broken landscape and pressed by advancing Ottoman armies, created in his court a remarkable if fragile centre of civilization. Ivan's son Djuradj built a monastery at Cetinje, founding there the see of a bishopric, and imported from Venice a printing press that produced after 1493 some of the earliest books in the Cyrillic script. During the reign of Djuradj, Zeta came to be more widely known as Montenegro (this Venetian form of the Italian Monte Nero is a translation of the Serbian Crna Gora, "Black Mountain"). --PaxEquilibrium 15:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Quoting information from "History of Montenegro" recorded by the Metropolitan of Cetinje:

Турски изасланици све казаше своме цару Аркану < Оркану > , који изненада по ноћи на Србље удари: кнеза Вука с породицом убише, и изгибе много српске војске, због чега син му Марко побјеже турском цару, а Србљи поставише кнеза Лазара себи за господара. На овом избору била је сва српска господа, осим зетског и црногорског херцега, који је у то вријеме био Баоша син Страцимиров, а војводство је примио послије Јована Првог херцега, који је пак потицао из породице кнеза Вукана, сина Симеона Немање, и звао се Јован Први Црнојевић.

In the very end (taking to granted the Serbian Church and all), it seems perfectly sane to put "Serbian" in the article, even if their ancestors were one day Croats like User:Red Croat claims. --PaxEquilibrium 16:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Since User:Bbik criticized me (;), I'm gonna try to translate this:

The Turkish emissaries told everything to their tsar Arkan < Orkhan >, who surprisingly in the night stroke the Servians; knez Vuk with his family murdered, and great part of the serbian army killed, because of which son of him Marko fled to the Turkish czar, and the Servians put knez Lazar for their lord. On this election the entire serb lordship was present, except the zetan and montenegrin herzog, who in that time was Balsha, son of Stracimir, and the Dukedom he received after John the First herzog, who descended from the family of knez Vukan, son of Stefan Nemanja, and his name was John < Ivan > the First Crnojevic. --PaxEquilibrium 16:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

---There was no evidence to suggest they wanted to unite with raskia/serbia, they are not serbs, but zetans/dukljans/montenegrins whatever you want to call us, duklja and zeta as well as montenegro have always had independence for long periods of time, and this is because of the fact that montenegrins are not the same as serbs.

But please explain the arguments I exposed...

Do not simply revert on a non-regular basis. --PaxEquilibrium 15:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

4 ethnic groups in duklja, the Dukljans being the "latins" who were slavic-speaking catholics, who were converted by stefan nemanja when he annexed Duklja, i believe todays Montenegrins to be the descendents of these people

The balsici where either albanian or vlach origin, and promoted a independent zeta, you cannot deny this, there is nothing serbian about them, except the fact that they spoke a dialect of it, to me they are a symbol of the present day Montenegrin identity - which is heavily mixed with croatian and albanian cultures(mixing of tribes, croatian names/last names)

All this said I view the Balsici as Montenegrins although in those times they would be "Zetan" or "Dukljan"

First of all it was "Serbs"; or just "Slavs", if you refer to ancient Doclea. Second of all, they weren't all Catholics - a large part of them was Orthodox. Third, Stefan Nemanja did not annex Duklja (what's more he expanded its territories), and he did not convert the Doclean populace to Orthodoxy. And lastly and most importantly - what has this got to do with the Balshichs? BTW, only a small part of present-day Montenegrins descends from the Docleans.

Yes, they are most likely of Vlach origin. However they never created an independent realm - when the concept of a "Serbian Empire" died (in 1395), they very soon annexed their remains to a re-unified Serbian Despotate (in 1427).

However, historiography remembers them as a Serbian dynasty - because that's what they were - as I presented to the up. The Balsics are not a symbol of present-day Montenegrin identity at all; not at all. --PaxEquilibrium 20:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Duklja was in effect "Red Croatia" not-serb whatsoever, so please get your facts straight, thats why today Montenegrins view themselves seperate from serbs, because in effect they are

Not vlach origin, but Albanian origin, "Balshaj" is a common albanian last name and has meaning in albanian, not to mention vlachs are not found much in Montenegro/Zeta, this theory is much more sound and makes sense considering Montenegro's history

History does not remember them as a serbian dynasty, You do, not history or true Montenegrins, They were Zetan/Dukljan rulers and were descended from Montenegrin-Albanians a.k.a Malsores(in albanian), note im not albanian but Montenegrin.

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