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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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About User:Rbj's chronic incivility again

This seems to be a once every two week topic here, but would someone please keep User:Rbj from abusing others thusly; He's previously been blocked twice for incivility and harassment but continues to insist on attacking others. Odd nature 18:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The edit you cite is indeed unfortunate, but generally admins only take admin action on WP:CIVIL matters that are really a lot more severe. While I appreciate that doing so is a thankless chore, I think that (if he has, as you say, a pattern of harassing and uncivil behaviour) an RFC or RFAr would be the next step. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a cas of chronic incivility. He's rude, he engages in personal attacks, he gets blocked, he behaves decently for a while, and then the cycle repeats. This is about the third time in the last two weeks or so that I have been aware of. I'd say a community block is in order, but then I think I said that when he made the anti-semitic attacks on User:Orangemarlin last week...or maybe it was the week before when his name was brought up here for personal attacks the week before that... Guettarda 19:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

In other words, while the AGF concept is nice and all that, r-b-j needs to g-o as the likelihood of remediation is roughly the equivalent to that of a blizzard in the Amazon basin. •Jim62sch• 20:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you all follow the steps in our Dispute resolution guidelines. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no dispute, Morven. What on earth is there to discuss? If you're suggesting an Rfc, all I can say is it would take days to paste all the diffs for personal attacks and hostility and disruption for this user, who has been asked politely, asked more pointedly, told outright, pointed in the direction of the civility and personal attack pages for his edification, and blocked repeatedly, most recently by me (for calling other editors stupid and lazy) - and although I certainly hope he takes my advice and reads up on civility and discussing the content, not the contributor, and applies it in his discussions with fellow editors - but I'm not holding my breath. The OrangeMarlin incident has never been resolved satisfactorily, and he used the attention on his talk page as a good audience for yet more snarky digs and outright abuse. There are times when an Rfc is simply a lot of time spent so people can say "Look, we followed dispute resolution - we knew it wouldn't do any good, but we also knew if we didn't act like Process Wonks no one would take action" - and this is one of those times. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 01:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

If you feel a RFC or mediation would be pointless or has already been attempted, you can skip those steps so long as you justify them. Arbcom does accept cases that have not gone through those steps if the reason why not is argued well, or when the problem has been around for a long time without resolution and is clearly beyond RFC or mediation. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 03:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom? I wasn't planning on wasting their time any more than I was planning on wasting anyone elses. I suggested community ban when the OrangeMarlin incident happened; see here. I note Avi felt the admins involved were terse, but it wasn't like it was his first offense, or his twentieth; check his block log - and trust me, he hasn't been blocked nearly as often as he could have been. KillerChihuahua 11:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Rbj is about the most uncivil editor I've ever seen, you needn't spend more than 5 minutes reviewing any discussion section of any article he chooses to edit. He's rude, anti-semitic, crude, dismissive, condescending, and an all around disruptive element. I've seen the administrators here do more for a lot less problematic editors. He claims he's protected by Jimbo Wales, and given the lack of interest in dealing with this person, except by administrators who have either been the brunt of his uncivil behavior, or have directly observed it, I'm wondering if it is true. Yes, I'm still angry about what I believe is blatant anti-semitism. I even filed a complaint, but of course, Rbj doesn't even get his pinky slapped. This is really frustrating. Orangemarlin 05:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we get some diffs for each of these offenses? Thank you. ThuranX 05:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I did diffs. It was ignored. I give up. Orangemarlin 05:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you link to that, then? I'm not an admin, i'm just reading along, but I doubt most admins will spend half an hour crawling through things to find the problems. At least this time, someone's reading. ThuranX 05:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to spend the hours looking up everything that he's done. But here's the diff to my ANI regarding Rbj. No one commented. Orangemarlin 06:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

(Undenting) Here is the last version of that section before it got archived. Lots of people got involved. Lots of people commented, including me. Please don't misrepresent things like that. ThuranX 06:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. I missed ALL of this commentary. I checked once or twice, saw nothing, and it's impossible to watch since there are so many posts to this area. By the time I checked back, it was archived, and I couldn't find it. Thanks. Still, nothing happened. Orangemarlin 06:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I just spent 5 minutes reading over the comments on my previous ANI. I do not know how I missed all of these comments, but it still bothers me at the lack of resolution to this matter. I know that several editors and admins dealt with the matter in a very direct manner. But Rbj's attitude was petulant and moved from borderline to distinctively anti-Semitic. I quit reading his responses to the matter, but now that I've looked into it more, the comments that he made in response were offensive to me. How dare he make any commentary on my religious beliefs, whether it was real or not, or whether I did it to make a point to him. I always use G_d in talk space, and have since I've seriously started editing here. And in my private life, I always spell it that way. If I make an edit to the article, it always uses the full spelling, if I must. It is my belief, and I find it offensive on how he chose to respond. But I am just one tiny target of his dysfunctional behavior. He needs to go. Orangemarlin 07:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Since I'm bored, let me list out my favorite attacks from this editor:

1. Get an education
2. Accusations of lying
3. Jimbo protects Rbj
4. Passive aggressive behavior
5. Still the most despicable statement from his fingertips

Orangemarlin 07:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Came by to see this thread around, so I'll comment a bit. User:Rbj's actions gave me a bitter taste in my mouth during my encounter with him about the situation regarding the banning of User:Nkras. —physicq (c) 06:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

So did my experience with him on the Marriage article. I'm sure I could go back through that and find all manner of him cursing out Bainer and Coelacan, and I believe some others as well. I see very little has changed since then. Seraphimblade 08:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Now that i've slept, I can reply to OM's comments above. OM, I read the last thread, and I think you're right, he's being a jerk. I also think that the lack of action last time has led to this editor escalating, as a result of a feeling of safety. As an involved(in wiki, not in this problem) regular editor, I'd like to see some action taken against Rbj. ThuranX 13:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

What action(s) do editors feel are appropriate? I've suggested cutting thru the process mess and simply community banning, but no one has responded - would there be any objections? KillerChihuahua 17:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Despite many warnings and chances given he appears chronically incivil and clearly the community has about lost it's patience with him, so continuing as-is is not an option. A community topic ban seems a reasonable solution, and one that I would support. FeloniousMonk 17:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

A topical ban at least, if not a complete ban; at this point those would be the only options in my view. Is anyone suggesting that an overall ban is too harsh, and that we should just stick with a topical ban? Jayjg 17:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately the behavior occurs on every topic Rbj touches. Before Intelligent Design it was going on at Talk:Homophobia, which even led to Rbj vandalizing someone's userpage. ··coelacan 19:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

A community ban is the only remedy for someone who is beyond normal remediation. Enough of r-b-j, one of the most tendentious, disruptive, disrespectful editors I have ever had the displeasure of running across. •Jim62sch• 23:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Looking a bit deeper into his contributions, this bit of incivility, calling other editors' work "dog-shit", saying "you guys think your own shit don't stink", threatening meatpuppetry, and characterizing another editors' arguments as "bullshit" are all completely over-the-top unacceptable. OK, I'm convinced; support a full indef ban. FeloniousMonk 00:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure if my $0.02 is worth anything more than that, because I'm not an admin, but I want him banned forever. But he does claim support from Jimbo, so I hope this isn't temporary. Orangemarlin 01:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

He doesn't have "support" from Jimbo. He was unblocked by Jimbo once because Jimbo didn't think that Rbj's reversion of the deletion of Nkras's legal threats itself constituted making legal threats. (Was that clear as mud? Sorry.) Long story short, if Jimbo feels that a community ban is fairly executed, he won't undo it. ··coelacan 07:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I know he doesn't get protection. But RBJ thinks he does. See above. Orangemarlin 23:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

In fairness, the last time I raised this "threatening meatpuppetry" thing, at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive234#User:Rbj, he argued convincingly enough for me that he was not doing that. I would support a ban on all other counts here, but not that one. ··coelacan 07:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no position on meatpuppetry, and did not suggest community ban for anything but his hostile and disruptive attacks on all and sundry. I see no objections to community banning this eeditor, but he has made only one edit since he came off block, and oddly enough, managed not to insult or attack anyone in that edit. I suggest we take the position that there is community support for a ban, and should he disrupt or attack again any administrator should indef block, pointing to this discussion. KillerChihuahua 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I just indefinitely blocked the user, but reversed it after reading KillerChihuahua's comments. The repeated incivility is a major concern; the fact that everyone here seems to be fed up with him was the whole reason that I hit "block" in the first place. But, as KillerChihuahua pointed out, his one edit since coming off his block wasn't too bad, so I'm willing to give him this final chance. EVula // talk // ☯ // 00:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I would have supported your block, and concur this needs to be a very final and last chance. This editor has had more than enough chances, and hurt the project and its volunteers enough. KillerChihuahua 02:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course, that is part of his pattern - once Rbj is blocked, he tones dials things down a lot. His level of incivility seems to be a function of the amount of time since his last block or series of blocks. Guettarda 12:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Once again, I'm not sure if it's my place to comment, but Rbj has had numerous "chances". His incivility will return, according to his pattern. To expect otherwise is just tempting fates. Orangemarlin 14:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Guettarda is right, experience shows that these quiescent periods part of his pattern to avoid a block. As a frequent target of his incivility I support an immediate block: He's been given plenty of such chances, and if things are left as they are in a week or two he'll be back to violating WP:CIVIL/WP:NPA. 151.151.21.101 23:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

EVula has already told him that this is the very last chance. It would be inappropriate to ban him right now before he squanders that last chance. I agree with you that we're past the point of WP:AGF, but if Rbj can keep it together from now on, no block is necessary. If he does it one more time, the blocking admin should go indef and link to this conversation (which will hopefully be archived by then) in the block log, so there's no mistaking the fact that a community ban is endorsed already. ··coelacan 01:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

My guess is he's monitoring this ANI, and reading that he's been given one last chance, he'll cool it until another ANI is filed, and he's given the fourth or fifth last chance. Yeah, I'm not assuming one gram of good faith, because he doesn't deserve any more. I'm opposed to his getting one more chance because frankly his actions are pretty much unforgivable from my vantage point, but since I don't get a vote in the matter, I presume he gets to stay. Orangemarlin 07:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

2 comments which seems uncivil.

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Enough of this tomfoolery—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 20:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Tony Sidaway made this comment earlier today on another discussion on this page which is higher up. It is old and will most likely be archived soon so I will bring it up in a new discussion. Quote: "This is unacceptable. The editor in question obviously has no inclination to work on Misplaced Pages and the account should be blocked for that reason alone." (The "editor in question" is User:AmendmentNumberOne) Earlier he even said "Please don't waste anymore time on this idiot". He called AmendmentNumberOne an idiot. Seems like a violation of WP:NPA right there. Also, by his logic WP:SPA is a policy and violating it is worthy of an indefinite block. Funpika 19:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems to be a very long-winded way of saying "I don't like Tony Sidaway". – Steel 19:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

More like "I don't like Tony Sidaway's comments". What would lead you to believe "I don't like Tony Sidaway" is my reason for this? Funpika 19:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

My user talk page is over there: ---> --Tony Sidaway 19:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

(after EC) No it isn't, but it isn't really relevant here either. (It's saying that Tony Sidaway is often uncivil, which is a different thing.) What admin action are you requesting, Funpika? I don't think that making these comments merits a block, and I am quite sure that Tony Sidaway knew that the comemtns were less than polite when he made them. You could try a user Request for Comment I suppose, or Dispute resolution, or even file an ArbCom case, but soemhow i doubt it will go anywhere, on past history. In any case it doesn't really seem like an ANI matter. DES 19:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I am starting to think that this is better on his talk page...I don't know if the 2 person RFC threshold can be met. An arbcom case would be going too far. Funpika 19:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Calling someone an idiot is no grounds for anything whatsoever. The Land 19:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I notice that this fellow AmendmentNumberOne still hasn't edited a single article. In short, he's a waste of time. --Tony Sidaway 19:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no policy that says he should be banned for not editing. Mayby after being called an idiot and having false alligations made up about him he does not feel like editing. Guess what tony, thats perfectly ok for him to do that. AmendmentNumberOne has not done anything wrong and he DOES NOT HAVE TO PROVE HIMSELF TO YOU. The block was overturned because he did nothing wrong, you on the other hand violated wp:civ. 20:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Bollocks. People who aren't here to build an encyclopedia can be gently and courteously told to fuck off with our kind blessing. --Tony Sidaway 20:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Stuff and nonsense. If you edit here but don't contribute productively, you get kicked out sooner or later. Moreschi 20:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony: yes, precisely that. Here to push an agenda using a single purpose account? Piss off then. We have more than enough troublemakers who provide some nett benefit to the project, we have no need of additional troublemakers who don't.

Guy (Help!) 20:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"you get kicked out" for multiple violations of wikipolicy, show me in diffs how this user has violated policy. This should not be such a hard job if you believe there is enough evidence of wrongdoing to support an indefinite block.Hypnosadist 20:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

While I'd say it a bit differently, I have to agree w/ TS's take on the user in question. If his comments were baseless, then we'd all be over him like simile on metaphor, but, despite the colorful way he's put it, Tony seems to have accurately summarized the group consensus regarding AmendmentNumberOne, a disruptive SPA that appears to exist only to push a single item agenda in talk pages and has not brought a net improvement to the project by being here. We have a responsibility to identify and deal with situations where an inordinate amount of time is being invested in tip-toeing around abusive users (who drag everyone down and create reams of paperwork and suck up volunteer time like there's no tomorrow). While we roll our eyes at Tony's choice of language, it.... does seem accurate. It's almost physically painful to acknowledge, but... there it is. Would I hire Tony to be in a customer service position at my company? No. Does his grating, chainsaw like typing-voice cut to the chase regarding Misplaced Pages problems? Yeah. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

For the third time! Have you any diffs showing AmendmentNumberOne being disruptive? Hypnosadist 20:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• If SPAs pushing PoVs can be blocked with no showing of disruption, then half the editors of the various mid-east topics can be blocked, and a quarter of thsoe editing US politicial topics, at least. If SPAs with no mainspace edits can be blocked, I wonder how many others would be incluced. In short, Tony does not speak for any consensus that includes me on this issue. I also depore the tone and incivility of his remarks, and i said do when they were first made. But there is really nothing to do about that except try to convince Tony to change his tone, which has been tried before with no success. He is convinced that he is acting correctly, i gather. DES 20:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

  If Tony is convinced his incivility is acceptable by wikipedia policy and he has been talked to about it then a short block would seem in order but thats up to an admin, of course if he does not edit for 12 hours we could block him for that! Hypnosadist 21:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

  If they're not building an encyclopedia, of course they can and should be blocked. --Tony Sidaway 20:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

  Some people seem to get very confused about what we are doing here - this is not a talking shop which also happens to have an encyclopedia attached - he's a SPA who seem to have no interested in editing encyclopedia articles - he has no purpose here. I agree with tony 100% --Fredrick day 20:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

  Then get consensus to change the blocking policy to that effect. I don't see such consensus at the moment. DES 20:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

  Agree with tony all you want but wikipedia has rules called policies. Until wp:work or be banned is created and accepted there is no policy that says because he has not edited in the less than 12 hours since his unblock he must be reblocked. Hypnosadist 21:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I was the reviewing administrator on the second block of User:AmendmentNumberOne. Opinion on this page was divided and no consensus was reached, so I exercised my discretion in favor of unblocking, for reasons discussed exhaustively on this board. Since the unblock, AmendmentNumberOne has made exactly one edit, which was here on ANI to thank me for unblocking him. He certainly hasn't done anything that could be considered as disruptive since his record was discussed and this matter was resolved yesterday. The user said in the comment that he planned to make further contributions, but he hasn't yet. If he does, and they are problematic, I or any administrator will evaluate them. In the meantime, I have absolutely no idea why we are having this discussion. Newyorkbrad 20:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

A bad call. You should have kept him blocked because this is an encyclopedia with discussion pages, not a discussion forum that happens to have an encyclopedie section. --Tony Sidaway 21:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

*editconflict* Then why don't you go to WP:VPP and try to make it policy! It isn't at the moment FYI. Funpika 21:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is. It is frustrating to see Newyorkbad ignoring, and you blatantly denying, the nature of Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 21:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say "Any user who does not contribute to the encyclopedia will be blocked indefinitely" then? Did I miss part of the blocking policy perhaps? Funpika 21:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

NYB, your grounds for unblocking seem a bit shaky. Heck, even your letters are all wobbly and look like they're going to fall over! Heck, an unblock is probably fine, but wasting a lot of time arguing about this user is a shame. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I have trouble taking the initial complaint at face value when the first quote they provide is merely Tony giving his opinion. That said, I'll agree with others that Tony is not as smooth as, say, practically anyone else, but I don't see an actual problem with that, as regards his adminship. Regardless of the merits of the block (don't want to get in the middle of that particular shitstorm), I wouldn't consider it as much a personal attack as it is a "potentially excessive expression of opinion". EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Pathetic. This is an account registered specifically to argue for undeletion of That Number, has zero edits to mainspace, zero edits to mainspace Talk, a deliberately provocative username (which in passing misses the point that Misplaced Pages is not free speech), has spent most of the last fortnight trolling, and getting us trolling each other, and now it's unblocked to carry on its merry game. It's a sockpuppet! A blatant sockpuppet, used outside the permitted uses of sockpuppets! Guy (Help!) 21:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• I truly don't understand the obsession with this user. AmendmentNumberOne has had the opportunity to make exactly two substantive edits, contributing to a DRV. For what it's worth, I found the edits strident and unhelpful, but that's a far cry from block-worthy. Since then, every one of this user's edits has been a function of the drama caused by the blocks themselves. We have no idea what, if anything, this editor might have said or done if he hadn't been blocked twice for little reason. In any event, now that he is unblocked, AmendmentNumberOne will either (1) not contribute any more, (2) contribute usefully, or (3) contribute inappropriately and be blocked, probably by myself. Um ... which of these outcomes is problematic? Newyorkbrad 21:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• "has spent most of the last fortnight trolling" no he has not thats the point! He legetimately made an unblock request, NewyorkBrad brought it to ani for discussion. Now this second discusion on the incivility of Tony was started by Funpika. AmendmentNumberOne has not trolled, civily complaining about a block is not trolling and claims that it is are very troubleing to me. Hypnosadist 21:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• A "blatant sockpuppet" JzG? Well then who is the sockpuppeteer!? It seems that because WP:SPA is only an essay, we can only block for being one by ASSUMING it is in violation of WP:SOCK. Funpika 21:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• Who is the puppeteer? Who cares? It's irrelevant. No brand new user masters Wiki process that fast. If it was any subject other than That Number he would have no supporters whatsoever. Guy (Help!) 23:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope this is not about the Number (your mind reading/bad faith is wrong in my case), this is about following wikipolicies of when to block and when not to block. And this section is on the incivility of tony sidaway, so can he or i for that matter go round wikipedia calling people idiots or not? Hypnosadist 23:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

• It is possible for someone to figure all this out as an IP editor and be able to use that knowledge from the beginning if he/she decides to create an account. Funpika 23:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm quoting this again, because people continually keep bringing up the totally unfounded accusation that the editor in question is "incivil", "whining", "trolling", "disruptive", "acting in bad faith", and "an obvious sockpuppet" - claims which have been made repeatedly with absolutely no support, rationale, or basis in any evidence:

Well, if you look at his contributions you can see that he registered, set up his user and talk pages, commented on deletion reviews, and then was blocked with the reason single-purpose account that has served its single purpose.

His next edit after being blocked was then to request being unblocked, where he asserted My edits have been made in good faith and represent a legitimate attempt to communicate my opinion on the titular subject of an article that I feel is important to Misplaced Pages. I believe the blocking admin has incorrectly and without reason assumed bad faith on my part. The block was then reviewed, and declined, with the argument User clearly acting in bad faith.

He then proceeded to argue on his user page that he was not acting in bad faith, and cited policy repeatedly to justify this. He was then replied to by User:Yamla, who was the reviewing admin, who accused him of deliberate attempt to get Misplaced Pages sued by posting information you know will cause the MPAA and asserted this was a clear indication that you have no business being allowed to edit here.

The user then replied, on his talk page to this comments, calling them unwarranted and in bad faith. He asserted he was upset about being accused of disruptive actions, and demanded an apology from User:Yamla.

He then, apparently following the blocking admin's actions, posted a response to accusations made against him on another talk page, which he was unable to edit - namely that user was banned for making a lot of (now-deleted) articles containing the HDDVD string, and for tantrumming about how Digg was being an Evil Awful Censor. As he notes in his reply, this is totally untrue. After no reply for a number of hours, he requested help from any editors, especially to post on this noticeboard. After no action, he commented again, requesting help.

After, apparently, a comment was made on this page, the blocking admin replied here, stating More to the point, I freely admit that I may have misspoken as to the precise nature of the infraction, but he showed up with a Frea-Speach (sic) name and immediately started fussing about in the HD-DVD Decoder String Deletion Review. A single-purpose account if I ever saw one, and I've damn well seen lots of them. The user then replied on his talk page, questioning why he was blocked if this was the rationale, and asking what he did wrong. He continues to comment about his block, citing policy, and asking for justification for his block, and posting related information to his talk page. Days later, he requests help again. He then write a letter to the blocking admin, summarizing his few. A few minutes later, he was unblocked, with the reason Fine. Let's see if you behave.

He then thanked involved users, who agitated on his behalf, and opened an informal complaint on this page, asserting that he was blocked for no reason, and asking for remedy to protect other users from the same treatment. He then reverted a couple of User:Ryulong's reversion of his pages. He was then blocked, with the reason I have blocked this account indefinitely for having no impetus to contribute to the encyclopedia at all. This was created solely to raise issues with the encryption key debate and has not made a single edit to any page outside of the Misplaced Pages or User spaces.

The rest of this brings us here. Now, frankly, if that is "whining" or an inappropriate use of a user's time, then we have a much more serious problem. I know that if I was blocked for no apparent reason for days, before being unblocked without any serious acknowledgment of what went wrong, my first move would be to bring this up here - and for exactly the reasons he brought it up. I see no reason to categorize this as "whining" or as any sort of conduct that is worthy of a block. We should not expect users who are understandably upset at being blocked for no apparent reason, and then unblocked without any acknowledgment of a mistake to just "roll with it" and move on. --Haemo 07:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

There has never been any evidence to back up charges of disruption, or sock-puppetry. Accusations of "trolling" and "whining" are based solely on the fact that the user advocated to be unblocked on his talk page, and disagreed with the blocking admin. In fact, accusations of "non-contribution", which is not even a justification for blocking, amount solely to the fact that some users do not believe commenting on deletion reviews serves a "constructive" purpose. Frankly, the continual name-calling, and assumptions of bad faith on the part of other users towards this editor really stretch the bounds of assuming good faith and being civil. --Haemo 22:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm lost here... did we block the time-waster or not? If not, when are we going to? Should we tell him where he can open a free blog, just to be helpful? Because Misplaced Pages is, as Tony succinctly put it, not a forum with an encyclopedia, its an encyclopedia with discussion pages. And Haemo, AGF doesn't mean we should pretend this "editor" has made any useful contributions, because s/he hasn't. KillerChihuahua 02:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion about what "useful contributions" are. I happen to believe that deletion, and deletion review, discussions are important parts of the encyclopedia, and that contributing to them is a contribution to the encyclopedia. I also believe that making admins accountable, by bringing up incorrect actions on their part is contributative. Other people believe that only mainspace edits count. Regardless of who is right, or who is wrong, non-contribution is not a reason for blocking. Editors should not have to meet some arbitrary, undefined, undocumented, and subjective definition of "contribution" in order not to be blocked. --Haemo 07:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Disruption is a reason for blocking. KillerChihuahua 11:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

For the Fifth time any evidence of disruption, please provide diffs! Hypnosadist 12:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I certainly hope you're not addressing me, although your visit to my talk page makes me think you are. What diff do you want from me, the one where disruption being a reason for blocking was added to the blocking policy? I think that was added around mid-2005 or so, and I'm certainly not going to dig through the history of the policy to find it. As all I've stated was that Disruption is a reason for blocking, which is easily found on the blocking policy page, you can have no reason for demanding diffs of me for any other reason. KillerChihuahua 12:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I am addressing you, provide me a diff of Amendmentnumberone being disruptive to back up your claim that he should be banned for disruption. Hypnosadist 12:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You're confused: demanding I provide a diff to prove a case I never made is silly. You failed to post a diff where I "claim that he should be banned for disruption". As I haven't done so, I am now done with this conversation, which seems to be as much of a time-waster as anything Amendmentnumberone may have done. KillerChihuahua 15:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

<----- where you say disruption is a reason to block. Any diffs to back up this claim or not! If you don't please stop wasteing time and claiming editors should be blocked without evidence.Hypnosadist 16:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

How simple can I make this for you? I said disruption is a reason to block. It is. I also said I have no intention of digging through the history of the blocking policy to find when it was added, and I don't. I never claimed an editor should be blocked without evidence, and I never stated that Amendmentnumberone should be "banned for disruption" as you seem to think I did. The entire discussion is here in this section. You are attributing to me statments which I did not make, therefore I do not need to provide diffs for statements which never happened. To claim otherwise is complete and utter nonsense. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 16:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not about when the concept of disruption was added to wp:block! It is in there and should be. This is about you saying "did we block the time-waster or not? If not, when are we going to?" and when challenged as to why he should be blocked by Haemo you say "Disruption is a reason for blocking.". OK now are we clear what you said. Now provide me some diffs of Amendmentnumberone's edits that you claim violate wikipedia policies. Hypnosadist 16:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The result from Luigi30's Non-sequitur Machine: Tony should stop being a WP:DICK, and people should refocus on editing an encyclopedia. Luigi30 (Taλk) 12:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

AmendmentNumberOne is disruptive, no matter how you try to gloss over it. It's an SPA for the sole point of pushing a POV, has by newyorkbrad's own admission only made unhelpful substantial edits, and is contrary to the goals of wikipedia. Lay off Tony's nuts, and let's focus on the ral problem here. ⇒ SWATJester 18:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

For the sixth time! Show me the diffs of AmendmentNumberOne being disruptive! Hypnosadist 18:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You mean blocking an editor for violating an ESSAY!? Those aren't policies you know. Funpika 18:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Why are we continuing to discuss this? Newyorkbrad 18:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Because some people still seem convinced that this guy should be blocked but are failing to give good reasons. They just say "disruptive" over and over but never give diffs. Funpika 18:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's just drop the issue and move on. Some overworked admins made a mistake, a new user refused to accept an apology, he's unblocked now. If ANO creates a large enough history where he clearly has no other purpose than to disrupt, we can revisit the issue; otherwise, this is all a waste of time while ANO hasn't done much of anything. Tony called someone an idiot? Warn him and move on. Phony Saint 19:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It comes down to this, blocking requires disruption (or one among a short list of other antecedents). To claim disruption requires diffs (you must have evidence to support your claim). No one is providing diffs because disruption has not occurred (other than two unsupported blocks). DragonflySixtyseven's apology was not accepted because he did not acknowledge what he did. Rather, he blamed haste. The diffs show otherwise. DS also gave some throwaway commentary at the same time that indicated he did not take gagging another editor seriously. Surprising, since the editors who came to advocate on his behalf seem to feel strongly. Tony Sidaway has been warned before. Not treating new accounts civilly and as acting in good faith is a real problem. The short-circuited deletion process with respect to the number deserved comment.-AmendmentNumberOne 03:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

So what in all of this requires administrative action, that it should be taken here? The admins made a bad judgment call, it's been reversed. Unless it becomes a recurring habit, the users and admins get a warning and everyone moves on. Admins don't typically get desysopped, nor are normal editors blocked, for a single incidence of assuming bad faith or incivility. Phony Saint 03:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this idiot still here? Somebody block him please, he's done absolutely nothing for two weeks now except waste our time. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia with a community, not a community that just anybody can join and not contribute. --Tony Sidaway

Please link to the policy which backs up that block. Funpika 10:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Tony stop violating wp:civ and wp:npa!!!! Hypnosadist 13:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it ok now for all editors to call other editors "idiots" without being subject to sanctions for violations of WP:CIV and WP:NPA, or is it limited to administrators? How about telling others to "fuck off?" Does one have to be an admin or just have a certain edit count for the civility expectation to be lowered? Are all editors equal in this respect, or are some "more equal" than others? Edison 19:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Take to Tony's user talk or WP:RfC/U, as it states in WP:CIV#Caution the offender. Tony's actions and words don't need to be reviewed here. Phony Saint 19:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Note that my comment was not a complaint about the one admin. It was a question about the ability of others to use the terms in comments. Can others expect to be able to use the terms without warnings etc for personal attacks and incivility? Edison 20:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

What needs to be reviewed here is the failure of every other admin that has seen these comments and done nothing about it. Hypnosadist 20:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As per your instruction Phony Saint i have warned Tony Sidaway on his talk page about abiding by wp:civ. Hypnosadist 20:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Accusation of murder

This whole rant is a tissue of lies, but I believe that the accusation of murder, reference to a police cell and the call for a lifelong ban are all breaches of WP policy, requiring admin intervention, please. Note also the same users previous defamatory edits made using sock puppets. Andy Mabbett 22:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks to me as if Lewisskinner needs some education and possible support dealing with a Wikistalker, not banning. Guy (Help!) 23:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You appear confused; I'm Andy Mabbett, not "Lewisskinner". Andy Mabbett 23:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone appears confused. You linked to Lewisskinner's post and objected to it. --Masamage ♫ 23:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the accusation of murder here. --Haemo 00:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I took it, and I may be wrong, as 'killing' the participation of a wikieditor, not of outright removing the pulse of a living human. ThuranX 00:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

that's how it seemed tome also. DGG 03:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

From the cited diff. "He has already murdered another wikiuser". Andy Mabbett 11:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that as literally accusing anyone of murder, given that he specifically couched in the context of an analogy. --Haemo 21:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, let me identify myself as lewisskinner, using an IP here, and only here to defend myself (having been blocked, see beow). Of course, feel free to block this IP too after posting.

Secondly, why Pigsonthewing, did you not think to notify me of yet another AN/I complaint made against myself by yourself? (from the top of this page - "As a courtesy, you should inform other users if they are mentioned in a posting"). But congrats in finally getting what you wanted!

Thirdly, the accusations of sockpuppetry are a) false, as explained, and b) Irrelevant in this particular incident. But hey, I expect to get that thrown in my face everytime Pigsonthewing has a dispute with me!

Fourthly, to defend the comment, it was a direct quote, as cited on my talk page. Twice

Finally, why does Pigsonthewing seem so averse to coming on to my talk page and requesting retraction of my comments? I can think of only one occasion in which he's ever posted on my talk page, and that was in response to user:Adambro gallant but ultimately (and always destined to be) futile attempt at mediation at User_talk:Lewisskinner/Archive_May_2007#Regarding_User:Pigsonthewing. Why will you not sort these problems out in private Pigsonthewing? Why must you always go to admins? It only wastes their time, our time which we could be spending editing articles rather than screaming each other down and trading insults, and other user's time who have to come here having been dragged in by the insults. I'd have retracted/reworded the comment if you'd asked! 91.105.170.205 03:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it acceptable for a user to evade a block in this manner? Andy Mabbett 10:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/91.105.170.205. That was the only edit, so I don't really think it was evasion, do you? L.J.Skinner 02:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

(info) I blocked Lewis for 48 hrs yesterday for this; the murder comment, in or out of context, was uncivil and inappropriate. If this is felt to be inappropriately harsh feel free to unblock (he's got an unblock request up now). I did not see it as an analogy; if Lewis meant it that way, he should communicate in a manner less prone to interpretation as accusations of physical violence. Neither threats nor acusations of that should ever be taken lightly. Georgewilliamherbert 23:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Pigsonthewing/Andy Mabbett is currently involved in another dispute on this page . Is he involved in any other ones? -- Kleinzach 01:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to imply anything positive or negative about this editor, but maybe some history would be helpful.

I've seen him on this board a few times in the past, and gave my opinion once or twice: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive228#False accusation of stalking. While looking for this post I found another archive where a search revealed a couple of other threads: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive227. Anynobody 05:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There are more cases here, many of which are instances of Pigsonthewing misusing the AN/I board:

• • ArbCom
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive243#Misleading_and_provocative_edit
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive243#Infoboxes
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive238#vandal & dubious user name
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive237#Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers ownership issues
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive235#Abusive and aggressive post
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive234#Abuse-only anon user
  • Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive234#Wizofdahood = vandal only —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.105.146.190 (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC).

Note that the above, unsigned lie was posted from the same IP-block as the above, block-evading edit. The only other edit by the user in this case was to vandalise an article I have previously edited. Andy Mabbett 22:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this intended to be another false accusation of sockpuppetry against me Pigsonthewing? If so, please stop, it's getting tiresome. L.J.Skinner 02:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It can't be, since there have been no preceding false accusations; you were sock-puppeting. Andy Mabbett 09:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Where is the lie? How is the second part relevant? Where was the vandalism?

• • Also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Composers#Infobox Discussion —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.105.146.190 (talk) 23:55, 16 May 2007.

Lewis, it is not credible for you to expect that an IP address in a block from which you have sockpuppeted extensively in the past to come here and edit like that and for us not to conclude that it's you. Knock it off. Georgewilliamherbert 18:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Legal-related question (re Philippine general elections, 2007)

Hello! I'm not sure if this is the proper place to write this. A fellow Filipino user from the Philippine regional notice board (also known as the "Tambayan") informed us that a Senator sent him an email and said that because of a particular election-related law, we were "obliged" to include the unofficial tallies for the recently concluded Philippine general elections, 2007 and not push through a currently-debated proposal to have it deleted from the election article. However, I double-checked the law that was being referenced in the email and could not find anything related to Misplaced Pages (or for that matter, any website other than the COMELEC's official website), nor was I able to come up with something that could be construed as relating to Misplaced Pages (since most information was related to print and traditional broadcast media). Anyway, my head is running with questions, but the first one I'd like to ask is: in a tricky legal situation like this, is Misplaced Pages bound only by US laws (and the laws of Florida in particula) as the Wikimedia Foundation was incorporated there? In a situation like this, what recourse do Wikipedians have? Thanks! --- Tito Pao 08:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a lot of hot air, to me. The cited law has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, whatsoever. I'd wager this is either a bit of dodgey business, or a Senator who doesn't know what he's doing. --Haemo 10:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

We're not bound by Philippine law, if that's what you're asking. It's a load of nonsense. ⇒ SWATJester 18:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Err, Philippine law is? Or the demand? Hornplease 09:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Threat of physical violence against Abu badali

I missed this when it happened, but it strikes me as rather serious. User:TechnoFaye threatened to physically assault User:Abu_badali with a baseball bat: . I think this should be taken very seriously. —Chowbok ☠ 17:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for a month. If someone thinks it is not enough please feel free to change the duration. -- FayssalF - 17:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Indef would be entirely justified. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

My problem with these situations is the underlying causes of vented frustration. In that spirit, perhaps an admin should look into Abu Badali's actions as well? I'm not addressing the offer to brain him, TF's words are violent and stupid, and he needs a good long cool off, but did the actions of abu badali incite him through continuing escalations? and if so, shouldn't that be addressed as well? ThuranX 20:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

See generally, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Abu badali. Newyorkbrad 20:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That is why i stopped right there. Abu badali is already at the ArbCom for the moment. Whatever the case is, personal attacks especially threat of violence got no justification. An indef would have been too harsh as the climate surrounding the ArbCom case is hot and maybe that what added to TechnoFaye's behaviour which was unacceptable but i don't believe it merits an indef. -- FayssalF - 01:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I may be the only person that's going to say this, but the comment was written... on May 2. Blocking him for 1 month on the 15th knowing that the Arbitration is undergoing and he's cited as a party doesn't strike me as making a lot of sense here. - Penwhale | 07:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note Penwhale. I have no problem unblocking the account in order to give the owner the opportunity to participate at the ArbCom case. -- FayssalF - 10:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Conditionally unblocked

I've just unblocked TechnoFaye in order for her to be able to participate at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Abu badali. I made this clear to her at her talkpage and the unblock edit summary. I also sent an email informing her of this. -- FayssalF - 16:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Please exercise some restraint

Some information, take it as you will:

1. User:TechnoFaye is functionally autistic. She is ordinarily a very good contributor and a perfectly decent person in my eyes.

2. There is an open ArbCom case against User:Abu badali for widespread wikistalking, targeting the contributions of individual editors who have disagreed with him, and other misbehaviors.

3. User:Chowbok is hardly an innocent bystander, simply "bringing threats of violence to the attention of administrators." This editor has been accused of some of the same activities as Abu badali in the past and has an open ], although note that he's nowhere near the level of Abu badali. TheQuandry 14:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input TheQuandry.

1. Well, the point is that making exceptions is not the best option. The policy is quite clear: Attacks that are particularly offensive or disruptive (such as physical or legal threats) should not be ignored. I've had a look at her contribs before i executed the block and found out that she is a good contibutor. As usual, i perfom a block log check for double checking. Alors là i found out that she got involved in two cases of uncivility. So this was her 3rd one. 1 month block is not 48h but it is not 6 months as well. If it wasn't because she is a good contributor the block would have been much longer of course.
2. I am aware of the ArbCom case and she is free to participate on it as i explained above. It is not an exception but a necessary thing. Her input there is essential to the case. Abu Badali is having his case there but does that justify TechnoFaye's personal attack involving physical threat? She could have just expressed her distress in a civil way instead of doing what she's done.
3. As for if Chowbok is innoccent or not, i consider that an irrelevant issue as anyone could have reported the incident. Maybe he's involved in causing her distress but that should be dealt w/ at other venues or here in a dedicated "Chowbok causing TechnoFaye's distress" thread. Not to defend him but i just found out this: Chowbok, good work. Do not let this RfC dissuade you fron continuing. --Jimbo Wales 14:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC) -- FayssalF - 16:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Cherokee

There's an edit war going on at Cherokee primarily between User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey (contribs) and User:Kebron (contribs). Both have violated 3RR, it appears (Merkey: , , , ; Kebron: , , , ), and there are other edits in dispute as well. This is part of a larger dispute about claims of North American native tribal membership; see policy proposal and related discussion at WP:NATIVE. I have been involved in the discussion at the last location, and would appreciate it if some admins could have a look at these pages. There have also been some accusations of bad faith and trolling, and an objective viewpoint would be helpful. Thanks, alanyst 17:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Alanyst, I appreciate you bringing this here. I am citing an article from a news station kotv.com and he continues to remove it. --Kebron 18:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The citiation listed (go read it) contains none of the statements attributed to it and should be removed. It's speculation and unsourced statements. There is no 3RR with vandalism from a troll account. As for Kebron, he is an SCOX Troll with an account here merely to engage in trolling, wikistalking and harassment of me. He follows me from article to article simply to revert edits and harrass. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 21:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

You can read what about these trolls antics on the SCOX message board. Todays activities are at this link. They should remane this message board "MerkeyX" instead of "SCOX". Al they do is plan forays to disrupt Misplaced Pages and troll me. http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/mb/SCOX?action=q&board=SCOX Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 23:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, these people are stalking your wikipedia edits there in real time - thousands of nasty posts. It's creepy. I've blocked one account who's only edits for a year and a half were negatively related to you - no significant content contribution.

Kebron, from your edit history it's starting to look like you're only interested in following Jeff around and goading him. --Duk 03:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You know what, I give up. You deal with Merkey. Check his record. He is a pathological liar. I will leave him to you. --Kebron 03:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Kebron, I don't think you get it. It's not your job to "deal" with anyone, nor is it mine. Editors will stand or fall on their own work, given enough time and eyeballs. But a prerequisite for this is that they get treated fairly. Stalking and goading someone isn't part of the equation. --Duk 03:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I honestly do not care what you think, care or do with him... he is all yours. --Kebron 10:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You're edit history says otherwise. --Duk 18:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine, whatever... he is yours from NOW ON. --Kebron 18:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Tagging for non-free logos (formerly: Betacommand appears to be at it again

Betacommand appears to be at it again; this time their target (at the rate of several edits per minute) is all images which they perceive to be logos lacking a "fair use" rationale for use in the articles about the companies that the logo represents.

Now I'm not a Wikimedia Foundation copyright lawyer, but this seems to me to be a pretty safe "fair use", and I would expect that most companies would actually LIKE the use of their logos to decorate their articles. If this is true, then someone needs to rein in Betacommand. If not, then I think we need to either:

1. have someone draft a boilerplate fair use rational that covers this exact case, or
2. tell us exactly why this doesn't fall under fair use.

Atlant 18:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If the issue is that the images do not contain the fair-use rationale, then the burden is on the uploaders to fix the situation. The images are not embedded in articles, they are resources that are linked to as needed. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Why did you bring this here first as opposed to Betacommand's talk page? --Iamunknown 18:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Because I wanted advice and guidance before taking action. Atlant 18:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. --Iamunknown 19:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

that is the problem Boiler plate templates are not fair use rational. if people would actualy follow policy and take the time to write a one or two sentence explaining what the image is and why we need it the problem would be solved. as it is images need valid FU rational and templates dont do that. Betacommand 18:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand is acting quite correctly in this case. We require individual rationales for all fair use images, not a boilerplate one. Its not a matter of whether the companies would like us to use their images, its a matter of Misplaced Pages's policy on unfree content. We only allow copyright content in a very narrow range of circumstances. In particular, images must be free not only for Misplaced Pages to use but also for anyone else to use for any purpose. If this is not that case, a valid individual fair use rationale must be provided. Images are unlikely to be fair use if merely being used to decorate an article. Betacommand has approval to tag all images that do not contain a fair use rationale, either by himself or using his Bot account. If they are not added before 7 days after the uploader has been notified by the Bot, they will be deleted. WJBscribe 18:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe Betacommand is doing the necessary this time. -- FayssalF 18:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I concur. This is needed and necessary work. -- ChrisO 18:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

(e/c) While the edit rate is a little high (4-5 edits/min) but not quite bot speeds, FU images need a fair use rationale and a source. He isn't quite saying they aren't fair use, just it isn't explained how they are fair use to fully meet Misplaced Pages fair use criteria. Commenting them out in the artices can help as well to encourage readers to add the info after thinking: "Where did the image go? I better do what th tag says." As opposed to just seeing a redlink for an image after a few days "Where did the image go? I better upload it again." Mr.Z-man 18:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The first step in dispute resolution is to....contact the user involved. Swatjester 18:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• One problem is that many images were uploaded at a time before it was made clear by Jimbo and/or Misplaced Pages policy that a justification beyond the template was needed. Rather than tagging at bot-like speeds, it would be better if someone could go through individually to check fair use images. If there is no justification but a good one could be made, then write it. If the image violates fair use policy, nominate it for deletion. Crotalus horridus 19:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

  Bots are for large scale operations like this. Atlant wants someone to either draft a boilerplate (not a good idea, rationales should be written on a case by case basis) or "tell us exactly why this doesn't fall under fair use." The latter is obvious: if nobody has written a rationale for using a non-free picture, then fair use cannot be justified. We have had these images on-site for years now in such cases, and nobody has bothered to justify their use. Time to get rid of them. --Tony Sidaway 20:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Bots are impersonal and rarely even describe the problem adequately. I've had at least one bot that never really gave me specific pointers in a peer review, just a general dump list of what needed to be done period. And in that list, I actually fulfilled 75% of the list. Even if you added a human element, we'd still have problems. --293.xx.xxx.xx 20:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
• I've always wondered why people, instead of tagging en-masse and causing problems, don't simply create the fair use rationale. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • There is certainly something unclear here, not so much about the policy but about what people think the consensus about its interpretation is. Do we believe that the practice of routinely having a logo image on each company etc. article is justifiable? In that case, a single type of valid fair use rationale could be devised that would apply to all these images in pretty much the same way (and the demand of having it written out individually in each case would be not much more than an enforced symbolic bowing down to policy but of little practical value, and we could really just as well have that standard rationale templated.) Or do people think that logos should be used on company articles only in special cases, for instance where the design of the logo was of particular encyclopedic interest? In that case individual rationales would be crucial but, first and foremost, 98% of all existing logos would have to be deleted. This is a real question. What, in people's opinion, would be a valid fair use rationale for a company logo? I honestly don't know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Creating a fair use rationale takes time and thought, tagging random logos with a no rationale tag cuts out the latter requisite. The greater concern is to make sure that logo usage complies with Misplaced Pages:Logos. In my experience, simply deleting an image is unlikely to deter anyone from uploading a poorly sourced duplicate. So why not create a blanket rationale for the majority of cases? Asking individual contributors to cobble together a rationale that complies with policy as well as copyright law ignores the fact that the majority of users are not too well familiar with either. If we assume a janitorial role with image uploads, then lets address our own concerns. ˉˉ╦╩ 20:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Per Anetode. If WP:LOGO is appropriate then I don't understand the problem against a boilerplate FU rationale specifically for those logos (I thought there used to be a pulldown choice for uploading logos, which was implied FU, before they rearranged all that stuff). If we want to be more hardass about refusing FU images (an idea that I sympathize with) then the problem is WP:LOGO, which would need to be redone with the result of getting rid of almost all of the logos in the encyclopedia. I don't see the need for a handcrafted FU rationale message for each logo given that the actual usage is about the same in almost all cases. This particular bot operation looks ill-advised. I'd add that backlogs of stuff like this get large precisely because of the thought required to handle them correctly. Stuff that can be crunched through mindlessly usually gets taken care of quickly, either by hand or with software. So bots are usually the wrong way to deal with a backlog unless there's consensus to abandon hope of dealing with the backlog properly. 75.62.6.237 07:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

um there was no bots involved. Betacommand 07:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Then that's even worse. You could have left messages on linking articles' talk pages very easily, asking that the relevant images be tagged in accordance with the latest policy whim, and not cluttering main article namespace history. Instead, you simply commented each image out of each article, which is disruptive and at the very least vigilante justice, if not one step short of outright vandalism. VT hawkeye_{talk to me} 21:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand, that's amazing. I counted up to 7 edits a minute for hours on end. I wish I could do a neat trick like that without a bot. Nardman1 06:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not inappropriate to use something like AWB, or just old-fashioned tabbed browsing, to speed up the laborious process of mowing through fair-use images. It's a simple thing: if a page has no rationale and needs it, tag it with the appropriate tag and notify the uploader. It cannot be our job to write a rationale, which would require us to examine the image's use in every article in search of the critical commentary required by Misplaced Pages:Non-free content#Images. That job has to fall to the uploader. (ESkog) 16:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it can be your job. It's not like only one person can come up with a fair use rationale. To not do due dilligence - check the image to see if it's appropriate, and then fill in the gaps if it is - is poor editing, and using an automated tool to go through the images - thus assuring there's no actual human review - is insulting to editors working on these articles and images. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

VT hawkeye before calling someone a vandal why not read the Policy I was enforcing. leaving notes on talkpages doesnt get the job done. Commenting out the image and notifing the up-loader get a lot better feedback and results. as for Nardman1's issues its not a bot but a tool like AWB that I have written for FU image review. if anyone would like the code Ill give it to them as soon as I debug my most recent code change. Betacommand 13:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of the policy, thanks. I'm disagreeing with your method of enforcement. Common courtesy (not to mention common sense) appears to be rapidly disappearing from WP, and this didn't help. VT hawkeye_{talk to me} 15:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

maybe if uploaders did what they were supposed to do, per policy and copyright law this wouldnt need done. but because users are lazy/dont know policy it needs done. this is the best method of getting results. if you think just placeing a template or notice does it your sadly mistaken we have articles that havent had sources tagged since 2005. since this is a legal issue i thought a more direct action is needed. Betacommand 16:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe if you actually reviewed the images and tried to fix the problem instead of tagging 7 images a minute following numerous concerns about similar edits, this wouldn't be an issue. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

hay jeff before making comments why not double check your facts. I dont tag 7 Images a minute, most of the edits are removing them from the mainspace and notifying the uploader. Betacommand 16:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

hay beta i did double check. If you're simply removing/tagging/notifying at a high rate without any real consideration, you're not really doing people a service. We allow fair use here, so if there's a fair use image being used that lacks a rationale, see if you can create one before tagging and removing. That's hard to do when you're making near-bot-speed edits. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I am, for someone not involved with either the image and related pages it would take 20-30 minutes to figure out where and why its needed. on the other hand someone who is familiar with the issue can do it in 2 minutes. also having only one person doing this would take years to review, on the flip side we remind users that FU images need rationale's and then they take care of that for all of the images they've uploaded. now jeff tell me what makes more sense one user checking and adding FU rationale to 360,000 images or having the community do it? Betacommand 16:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What makes more sense? Getting a bunch of people together to actually review the images as opposed to tagging them willy-nilly, undoubtedly. We are here to improve the content, after all. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• I have to agree with betacommand here. Simply tagging the images, and hoping that someday, it will eventually get fixed per m:Eventualism is inappropriate in this case. This is a legal issue; we need fair use justifications, not just tagging it as being copyrighted. Leaving ourselves exposed to this sort of problem can potentially have serious impact on the project. Betacommand's actions are putting teeth into it. We might not like the teeth (even I don't like seeing some fair use images removed for lacking rationale) but it does have the effect of encouraging people to do it right in the first place. --Durin 17:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• First, it's extreme copyright paranoia, not a legal issue, and has no legitimate long-term, short-term, or any term impact on the project, let's stop fooling ourselves here. Secondly, no one's saying "simply tag the images," I'm saying actually review the images and attempt to fix the problem rather than throwing our hands up and insulting editors along the way. Make an effort, y'know? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, Betacommand just ripping through pages is not much short of vandalism. It is no wonder that hard working page/subject editors are giving up posting in droves when someone is ripping through their work. If you are that concerned about fair use rationales for something which are obviously sporting logos, then why no add the rationales yourself rather than wrecking the pages. How to wreck an online community in one easy lesson. If people get genuine pleasure in their self imposed task of correcting other people's image 'errors' at a rather alarming rate(each to their own), then why not be constructive and source the rationales. I for one know my subject, but not the in depth workings of Misplaced Pages and am not remotely interested. Instead of wiping images, why not form, for example, a sports logo rationale those of us who write about our chosen sport. A sports logo is a sports logo. Hammer1980 17:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• If doing this work is vandalism, then I suggest you have WP:CSD#Images.2Fmedia criteria 6 removed from that page as a blatant case of vandalism. --Durin 17:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That may as well be in a foreign language to me mate. Hence the reason instead of ripping pages to shreds, how about putting in these rationales instead. A sports logo on a page is not likely to be targeted for copyright violation on Misplaced Pages when just being on this project increases awareness of the clubs/organizations concerned. It 'is' paranoia. Hammer1980 17:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• de-indent You consider it extreme paranoia. Myself and others do not. There are droves of lawyers whose sole purpose in professional life is to go after people who violate copyright of their clients. I'm not terribly interested in running afoul of these people. We've tried for *years* to get people to appropriately tag their images without effect. If such an effort actually yielded results, hey I'd be all for it. That's one of the joys of Misplaced Pages; group effort. But, the group effort has categorically failed in this instance. We're long past the time when we should sit around and wish for it to happen with our hopes dashed. This is a legal situation even if you don't want to feel it's a potentially dangerous one. The right thing to do is to make this situation go away. Since group effort isn't working, deleting is a way of fixing it that will actually work. If you are offended by this, then by all means *please* form a group of people to go after these images that are tagged and fix them. But, I'll virtually guarantee you nobody will want to do the work. That's why this tack needs to be taken. --Durin 17:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• No, it merely postpones the issue and pisses people off, not to mention actively harms the quality of the project and the product we're providing. If our paranoia is so great that we somehow think that a possible (not even probable) DMCA request is going to be leapfrogged for a lawsuit on a site that's been high-profile for over a year, I'm not sure what to say. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I know, I was being tongue in cheek. I've learned my lesson on civility from my recent failed rfa so I was just trying to use a little humor. You might want to fix your script a little, it's leaving comments in image page code indicating that you are BetacommandBot (when it lists the pages the image has been removed from). Nardman1 16:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If Jeff is so all-fired desperate to keep these images, why doesn't he round up a bunch of people to perform the review which he seems to think would be so simple and quick? Put your time and effort where your mouth is, Jeff. —Phil | Talk 17:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I do it where I see it, quite honestly, which isn't entirely often because I don't generally work with images. I also know that our extreme paranoia on copyright isn't nearly as urgent as about a hundred other things. More to the point - if there are people who actually see image patrolling as a valid use of their time, there's an effective way to do it that improves the project, and a lackadaisical approach that only stirs up more ill will for no good reason. If we can promote the former, we're better off. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I was really taken aback by the thoughtless way Betacommand stuck two boilerplate messages on my talk page yesterday, and then ignored me when I left a response on his own talk page. He should learn some manners. I also agree with Jeff that Betacommand would be better employed providing fair use rationale. RupertMillard (Talk) 18:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Advice sought: User:Ron liebman socks and Baseball articles

We have a moderately prolific sockpuppet family Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Ron liebman running which is making moderate rate (10s/day) edits throughout primarily baseball related articles, making changes to statistics and various other details which are believed to be falsified information. It appears that the vandal is impersonating people off a list of members of the SABR baseball statistics society based on the accountnames, but is also using IP addresses.

Query 1 to the assembled peanut gallery: Is it worth semi-protecting the articles which Ron's socks are repeatedly hitting?

Query 2 to the peanut gallery: A large fraction of the edits appear to be coming from the New York City public library system. Would this volume of problem justify an IP range block on those IP addresses (for a few days to discourage?), or is that unreasonable overkill?

We are able to continue spotting and manually whacking the sockpuppet moles as they arise (1 to a few per day), however this is time consuming and has been going on for a week now.

Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 19:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection is probably the way to go. The problem with range-blocking the NYC public libraries is that presumably a huge number of people use the computers there. For that reason, semi-protection of the involved pages is probably the best way to limit the damage without freezing out too many contributors. Just my 2 cents. MastCell 22:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense. Georgewilliamherbert 02:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Black Harry et al.

Perhaps an admin can take some action to deal with the incivility at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of the writings of William Monahan (second nomination). User:Black Harry has now referred to another user as a "stupid S.O.B." and charged him with "incest".. Likewise, another user, on Black Harry's talk page, has described the other user as a "scumbag". My suspicion is that this will only get worse unless an admin steps in with a block or the like for some period of time.A Musing 20:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I blocked 24 hours for gross incivilty and personal attacks. Hopefully when the block expires, he'll be more careful about what he says. John Reaves (talk) 20:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.A Musing 20:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Last time I mentioned who I believe to be this user here, it was archived without comment. I figure this last incident is worth mentioning the possible sockpuppetry again. Also, please note that Mrscottjackson added Black Harry to the NBA WikiProject, which to me points towards this being yet another sock. --OnoremDil 00:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser. John Reaves (talk) 00:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I have looked at WP:RFCU, but thought this issue fit more into "Vote fraud where the possible sockpuppet votes do not affect the outcome of the vote". The solution they have there is to list on WP:ANI. --OnoremDil 11:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:AlistairMcMillan Incivility

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No administrative intervention warranted. Suggest pursuing dispute resolution. MastCell 20:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:AlistairMcMillan has been getting very emotional at the Apple inc article, and done, what I feel to be incivil treatment.

The use first stated here that I am "yet another person who doesn't really have anything useful to contribute to Misplaced Pages" then went on to swear at me about reading:

User:AlistairMcMillan 13:46, 15 May 2007 diff here "My edits also come from actually reading the ***** sources."

I am heavaly offended by not only the use of this word but its context when User:AlistairMcMillan refered to my worth. there are so many words that could have been used, but the one used is also threatning in nature. combined with this editors use of my first name in the comments to follow the one about my worth:Here and Here As my first name is not listed anywhere in my talk page or my user page, I question where they got this info. If he is following outside wiki websites to locate me... Is this not stalking?--Zeeboid 20:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

To anyone reading this, please note Zeeboid's first edits to Misplaced Pages were an attempt to write an article about himself. The article was deleted. The AFD still exists if anyone is interested. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/ThePete AlistairMcMillan 20:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Alistair, I'm failing to see how it's relevant? He created an article on himself, and!? Matthew 20:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Its relevant because Z is complaining that AM knows his name; Am is pointing out how William M. Connolley 20:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This complaint is just trolling/pointless/hopeless/whatever. Z's "heavily offended" cannot possibly be taken seriously, compare his own behaviour William M. Connolley 20:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see where Zeeboid's name is used, and bloody is just a British way of swearing. Phony Saint 20:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Frankly I believe Alistair is only using the editors first name to get to Mr. Zee. I've seen that Alistair is generally an uncivil person, so I can understand that this user is slightly miffed. Perhaps Alistair should apologise and they should both move on. Matthew 20:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"generally uncivil"? Because three months ago I pointed other editors to our policy that says articles about fiction shouldn't just be plot summaries? On an article that three months later is just a great big long plot summary? AlistairMcMillan 21:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're referring to the use of "Paul Roberts", that's the person who wrote one of the source articles here. I see no indication of using Zeeboid's name, unless he happens to be the author of that article. Phony Saint 21:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In edit comments I said "Reply to Pete". I dislike using made up names. That's why I have my full name everywhere. AlistairMcMillan 21:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. It's not helpful to others in the debate to refer to someone by a non-obvious name, but he did reveal his name publicly. Phony Saint 21:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Read "emotional" as "extremely frustrated". Pete kept citing two sources to prove the statement "multiples sources criticized". I kept telling him the two sources were pointing at the same article on two different websites and removing one leaving the original. He kept restoring the duplicate. AlistairMcMillan 21:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

So then, My actions justify an administrator using a violent swear and upon the first alteration to what you had done (an undiscussed major overhaul of an article section), saying I am "yet another person who doesn't really have anything useful to contribute to Misplaced Pages" and the use of my first name, which you had to hunt for to find? I reverted your changes, because upon the first change you used insulting personal reasons instead of policy or fact. Your emotional state started before I made any reverts to your changes.

I am not the one that resorted to swearing and claiming an editor's worth to be zero. that was way beyond the line of Civil. we can go back and forth on the use of my name, which if I used reciently, I can understand, but you had to hunt to find it from Oct 16 2006.--Zeeboid 13:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I said you had an obvious chip on your shoulder about Apple. You obviously do. You even created a userbox category just to tell everyone that. You want a criticism section in the Apple article, simply because you don't like Apple. You've spent three months arguing with other editors over it. Even gotten mediators involved even though other editors are bending over backward to work with you. You constantly object to the content you adding being editing, even after other editors take the time to explain that they are doing so because the content you keep adding is breaking Misplaced Pages policy. Even now, how many times did I have to tell you the InfoWorld and PC World articles were exactly the same article before you actually listened? AlistairMcMillan 16:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Do my actions justify your offsive and violent use of language and your commenting about me bing "yet another person who doesn't really have anything useful to contribute to Misplaced Pages"? Did my edits force you to swear and to comment on me not having anything useful to contribute? No they did not, and as an administrator, you of all people should know better then to do what you did. Your actions even now, trying to change the topic to justify what you have done are not very "assume good faith"--Zeeboid 17:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Assume good faith about what? You don't like Apple, so you edit articles accordingly. You don't believe in global warming, so you edit related articles to conform to your position. Ninety something percent of your edits relate to these two positions. In the three months you've been actively editing, you managed to pick fights with nearly every editor you've come across. And in the last month you've been blocked twice. Our "assume good faith" policy clearly says it "does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary". AlistairMcMillan 19:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you point out to me where I said I don't like apple? I didn't, and we can talk all day about what you think I like or what you think I am all about, but that does not change the offensive language and the talking down to me you have been doing. Your off the cuff agression over the apple article and your vulgar and violent choice of words is what this is about. I ask again, Alistair: Do my actions justify your offensive and violent use of language? Do my actions force you to belittle me? Do my actions make you log into your computer and type the incivil things you have recently? I can't believe you are trying to turn this around to some type of reason to spread your hate. If I would have known trying to add a critism section to a company website, inline with microsoft or Nestle or Dell, would have forced you to speak in vulgar swears, I would have edited that in the first place. And as an administrator, you Alistair, should be setting an example for others.--Zeeboid 19:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to take great offense to my use single of the word "bloody" to express my frustration, go ahead. That isn't going to let you use two links to the same article on two different websites to claim "multiple sources". That's my final word on the matter. If you want to prove me wrong but making some constructive contribution to Misplaced Pages please by all means go ahead and prove me wrong. AlistairMcMillan 19:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest archiving this thread. There is no incivility here that rises to the level of requiring urgent administrative action. For the record, "bloody" in this context is not horribly offensive. Saying you have "nothing to contribute" in the context of a heated discussion is uncivil; the best approach is to point it out to the user in question, refocus the discussion on content issues, and move on. AN/I is intended for things that require urgent intervention; I'm not excusing incivility, but no admin is going to take action on the basis of one instance of mild-to-moderate inciviility in the setting of a heated discussion. This is more of a case for dispute resolution, if that. MastCell 19:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree if Alistair had not started his conversation on the apple article or the apple talk page in such a heated way. The article talk had not been heated for some time until this administrator decided to use profanity and his insult as to my value. between this and using my first name (after hunting for it) to get to me, I can not believe that an administrator would be alloud to be so offensive to an editor. I also don't understand how his vulgarity can set a good example of how to help in the growth of Misplaced Pages. Others (Matthew above) have seen this user as uncivil, and I just wish I didn't have to fear AlistairMcMillan for his sudden burst of anger in this case. As someone who has been editing apple articles since July 2004 I hope other editors who edit apple related content are not treated in such an offensive manor when AlistairMcMillan does not agree. If he was sorry, I would accept that, but Alistair is only trying to turn this around away from him. Please Alistair, can't we settle this and get back to improving Wiki?--Zeeboid 20:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't the forum to "settle things"; that would be dispute resolution. The first step is to disengage, which I'd suggest here. It sounds like you both want to put this behind you and get back to editing; why not do that? If that fails, consider the more advanced steps listed in dispute resolution. MastCell 20:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Abuse of administartive abilities to edit protected pages by Steward/Admin Drini

Greetings, I was shocked to discover an immense amount of articles which transclude {{spoiler}} frakked up. The aforementioned user edited the template at 22:16, and was promptly reverted by DESiegel five minutes later citing guidelines. This is also not mentioning the fact there's no consensus for this edit. I am personally so shocked by these edits I would like the user to relinquish their administrative abilities. The user then reverted (in another language) to their version, which I believe to be stating: "Don't just revert" Matthew 21:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a bit early in the game to be asking "the user to relinquish their administrative abilities". _InBC 21:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Just ask for the reasons Drini had to make that change. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

User has made them quite clear on the talk, from my understanding I interpret it as: Because it's not used how I like it, you should all fix it to my liking. Matthew 21:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The sequence is Bold, Revert, Discuss, not Bold, Shoot Editor in Face. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, not: Bold, Revert, Revert, Revert, Talk. Matthew 21:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, this isn't so bad, just ask him what he's up to next time. Majorly (talk | meet) 21:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I left him a mesage about this, then saw the reference to this. It's a bad idea, he's NOT a bad editor. I don't want that spoiler system reinstated, but I think wiki'd lose out to UNinstate Drini. Should've asked? Check. Bad application of BOLD? Check. baby with bathwater? No Check. ThuranX 21:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

/me can't parse stupidity. Did you know about WP:BOLD, go ahead and try new stuff? Don't be afraid of making mistakes? I guess that mindset is gone, and they lynchmob has replaced it.

First pages looked wrong for a second, (since endspoiler tempalte took a few seconds more to save after spoiler one. So I reverted again jsut to see how it looked. People didn't like my changes, fine, put things back. But this is just insane. Now I remember why I barely edit on english wikipedia, I'm gone again. -- drini 21:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Endspoiler isn't obligation. Bold went out the window the moment you reverted to your version. Matthew 21:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, shooting in the face time NOW. Hipocrite - «Talk» 21:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

(ECx2)Uh, I CITED BOLD... But you're a steward, and an admin. YOu know about sandboxes. really, that's about it. Please use them more. YOu clearly confused lots of people by the sudden change in the spoiler template, and how people read the pages. All we're all saying is that somethign that basic, as an admin and steward, get a second opinion. Not a massive consensus, but find a good admin, and say, hey, check out this sandbox idea. would it work, does it break a policy? But no one here's saying leave wiki, man. Just... remember you're the exemplar for the rest of us as an admin and steward. ThuranX 21:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This incident report is unwarranted and should have been submitted if the situation escalated. I think it's clear that the system worked itself out, with editors filing complaints about the formatting and the admin in question desisting his activities. I don't necessarily dislike his idea, but it's a major change for a lot of media-related articles and should've sought a consensus. From what I've seen in the past, we've gone through a lot of spoiler-related discussion already, and there should have been one for this template update. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 21:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there a way to move to pull the report, so as not to drive Drini away? --Ckatz_spy 21:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think soem people here are overreacting. I did revert, twice, becaue ther changfe was undiscussed, was opposed by many on the talk page, and the edit summary on Drini's second revert said "don't kneejerk revert" which seemed to imply an intention to retain the change, not discuss it, (but that may have been a failrue to WP:AGF on my part, and because the tempalte is widely used. But i donm't think one edit or set of edits is enough to go flinging accusations of "abuse" around. DES 21:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

other spoiler-related edits today

In a possibly unrelated matter, but it seems like a coincidence, there have been some other contentious edits involving the use of {{spoiler}} today. User:David Gerard removed it from many articles, citing "rm gratuitous spoiler warnings - should not be on anything not recent release" as his edit summary in most cases. many of these changes have since been reverted. he also edited Template:Spoiler/doc to add the bolded instruction "This template should only be used on very recent or unreleased works of fiction. Be sparing in its use" without discussion. I reverted. Another editor has since added a different but equally undiscussed instruction. i have not reverted, but have tried to start talk page discussion. i wasn't going to bring this here, but since the thread on the template reverts is already started, I think I should mention it. I don't think this kind of mass change without prior discussion is a good idea, this is a case IMO where "Bold, Revert, Discuss" is a mistake, and 'discuss" should come first. DES 22:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

While I was typing this out a thread appeared! Apologies if anything is repeated.

Today I am seeing strange things happen with Template:Spoiler. Removal on the grounds "patronising - of course a 'plot summary' will tell people the plot". Removal on grounds of "rm gratuitous spoiler warnings - should not be on anything not recent release" . This latter change seemed at that time to be supported by Template:Spoiler, but only because this change at 19:03 today apparently added this clause, 5 minutes after the previous change. This is not isolated to the one article I am watching. It tends to irritate me when previously uninvolved editors drive past an article making changes to some undisclosed agenda, so I have been reverting it.

Requests for clarification on Template talk:Spoiler and on User talk:David Gerard#Spoiler tags get no reply. On Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Spoiler tags there is the suggestion that this proceeds from some off-Wiki discussion.

Then we see Template:Spoiler changing rapidly. Four times today, in fact, adding, then removing code to hide the contents of spoilers, with corresponding complaints of messing up countless articles.

Well, normally I'd write this off as a content dispute, but just about everyone involved seems to be an administrator. Indeed, the template is fully protected, so not everyone can play.

I have no view on whether this spoiler tag is a good thing, and I would plead with anyone replying to this not to start debating that; it doesn't seem to be the place. What I would like to understand is what process is being followed here: what consensus was reached, and if so, where it is to be reported, whether the consensus is such that it overrides any local consensus of article editors who - when they chose this tag, did so in good faith and according to then prevailing instructions; and finally what editors should do faced with something like this, where templates and the instructions on how we are to use them are changing with dizzying rapidity, and what is going on doesn't seem to fall under any kind of normal warning template I might use when faced with disruptive editing (even assuming that warning administrators is a good idea). Notinasnaid 21:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I attempted to discuss my edits, but i won't revert on this matter further now, so there is no need to warn me. As to where consensus was reached for these changes: nowher that I saw, which is why i did so much reverting. I didn't, however, revert removals of spoiler templates in the few cases whre I personaly thought they probalby wern't needed anyway. DES 22:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeing a budding {{spoiler}} fight over on Blazing Saddles. It was started by David, and after its revert, the cause was taken up by User:Eclecticology, who is on a similar bender (check the contribs). EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, things become clearer. A guidline relating to the 'spoiler' tag is proposed for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. If it isn't stretching WP:AGF too far, it may be that some editors believe that (a) the result is a foregone conclusion and (b) that deleting the guideline will lead to the deletion of the tag and (c) that they might as well start before the conclusion of the debate. This would hardly be worthy of mention here except that, so far as I can judge, those involved may well be administrators. Notinasnaid 23:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

• Actually what's happened is this: a number of admins including David Gerard (I think probably David first, he was the first to bring it to my attention anyway) noticed that there were huge numbers of utterly absurd spoiler warnings (including the Book of Ruth, some 1st Century Greek texts and so on. Mostr spoiler warnings appear in a section "Plot details" or some such; it is hardly a stretch of the imagination to realise that the section on plot details might contain, you know, details about the plot, so if you don't want to know about the plot, don't read it. In fact, if what you're looking for is a book review that doesn't give away details of the ending, you are probably in the wrong place anyway. So, large numbers of absurd and inappropriate spoiler tags were and are being removed. And the project will be a better place for it, I reckon. You need a really powerful reason to include a spoiler warning in an encyclopaedia article. This is not a fansite or book review collection, remember. Guy (Help!) 09:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Of course what Guy states as fact here is only one view in a heated discussion. See Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning for the full monty. --87.189.124.195

Raul654 issues

Hello there. I am coming here reluctantly, as I certainly would not like to have to reprimand a user of such stature, but there have been many recent problems with this user that I have noticed. Raul654 has recently been discussion with other users here the problems he has with the Today's featured article (TFA) requests process. I have certain problems with what he is suggesting (and certainly think that it is not within reason) but that is not why I am coming here.

We have been having good quality discussion recently about how the process is not working and how it should be fixed. Raul asserts that the idea of requesting dates is not good because he is getting too many complaints from people who do not get what they request for a TFA. Fine, whatever. But my problem is that the discussion on his part has not been civil and he constantly bashes any ideas or proposals of him stepping down as the sole TFA selector (which other users think would be a good start to fixing the problem). But this still is not the reason I am here.

I'm not sure when, but very recently, Raul deleted two templates which go on talk pages of TFA requested articles: {{Main Page request}}; {{Mainpage date requested}}. Now, he gave no notice of deleting these, no edit summaries as to why he did so, and had removed the template from every page it was on without discussion. Now, he certainly knew what was going on at TFA requests and certainly there would be some disagreement with the deletion of these templates, so I come here to report that Raul has exceeded his duties and thinks that his position places him higher than everyone else in the community. I urge this entire situation to be looked into further, and, again, it was not my wish to come here and complain, but I felt it was my duty because of a wrong doing to everyone here. _└┘t  22:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Jared has taken it upon himself to cause as much trouble for me as possible. (And has publicly said so: "I'll have to figure out the solution to the obvious problem of having only one person as FA coordinator myself."). The templates were discussed here, where everyone who commented on the matter expressed great dislike for them. Furthermore, as anyone who looks at the templates can see, they serve (literally) no useful value except to direct people to the requests page to vote for their article (which is prohibited by the directions on that page). Jared above claimed I gave no notice of deletion - this too is false. Basically, this is Jared's attempt to stir up trouble for me. Raul654 22:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Err, actually Raul, I must be missing something, but why do we even have a featured article director? I'm sure there is some reason for it, but I've just never seen it. Thanks ahead of time :) —— Eagle101 22:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Because when we switched from an all-text main page to the 4-pane view, some form of decision making was needed to allocate limited main page FA space. After 6 months of me doing it all by myself, a troll tried a breaching experiment and challenged my informal authority. A poll was taken, and (by near unanimous margins) I was given the title of featured article director. I also set up the FA criteria, FAC and FAR pages, set their policies, 'etc. In short - I more or less set up the whole show and since then, I give order to the process. Raul654 22:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I find it interesting how my next statement in that first diff there (supposed to be bashing me) was "If you would still like to help work out a solution, feel free to contact me." Seriously, I do not want to cause him any trouble; it's too much trouble for me (and I have a lot of homework I could be doing right now, but I am choosing to ensure that this problem is righted). Anyway, I don't feel it was appropriate for Raul to just delete the template because there were adequate reasons not to delete it. It also didn't formally go through the process for deleting. Templates shouldn't just be removed from pages at a person's will. Overall, I don't think Raul was in the right to delete this and I would just like comment on this. I repeat that I am not looking for him to get into trouble, I would just like to right an obvious wrong. _└┘t  22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Mmm ok, I can go with that. :) If the community is some how unable to figure this out on its own and it requires one person, fine. Though honestly I do think at this stage, the community is mature enough to think about maintaining the main page itself, but I won't go there :) As far as the templates, if you feel process was violated , we have deletion review for a reason :) —— Eagle101 22:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking of going to DRV, but I quickly realized that my issue was more about the ideas behind the deletion than the deletion of the actual template. Plus, it would be too much work to revert all the edits he made to fully remove the templates from all the pages. Again, I don't think this is just a deletion issue; I think it is an abuse-of-power issue on a small but growing scale. _└┘t  22:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me see if I understand this correctly... You're forgoing doing your homework because you feel Raul654 is being a dick by deleting a template on article talk pages that says that a specific date is being requested for a featured article to be on the main page? Exactly why is this a big deal that requires administrator attention? Grandmasterka 22:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The issue, if you've been following it, is not straightforward at all. It all, however, stems from the fact the Raul is in a position where he has been given the sole rights to do whatever he deems necessary to ensure an article appears on TFA each day. The latest problem was, yes, the deletion of these templates. But certainly there have been other problems, including a poor attitude, a lack of ambition to work with others to fix problems that may (or may not) exist, among other things. I really am not sure myself what I'm looking for here because I certainly don't think he should be blocked or desysopped or anything else. I just want to have other administrators assess the situation because I think his actions are going unchecked. (And FYI, the homework reference was for effect. Haha.) _└┘t  22:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest that if "the community" wants to have some sort of conversation about how long the "Featured Article director" appointment lasts, this isn't the right venue for it. It's not clear to me what admin action is needed here. Jkelly 23:01, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the comment "If you would still like to help work out a solution, feel free to contact me." is a clear statement by Jared that he wants to take over from Raul, and given the manner in which this is being pursued, Jared replacing Raul is not in the best interests of Misplaced Pages. -- Nick 23:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: I certainly don't want the position. It is too high stress and time consuming for me. I do, however, think it is worth the time to think of a logical solution. Please dismiss this whole thread if you don't believe there is anything an admin can do to fix the situation. If you can fix it, please do. If it is an unfixable situation, though, I we can leave this issue be right here. _└┘t  23:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I think you're trying to fix something that isn't broken. Raul654 does a superb job keeping that whole thing organized. It's a potential problem any time someone's article doesn't get promoted, or doesn't get promoted when they want, or if it doesn't end up on the main page at the right time or at all. All that can reasonably be expected is that he handles it gracefully any time there is a bone of contention. It might be wise for him to have an interim coordinator ready in the interest of cross training, but that is nothing that belongs on this page. --Spike Wilbury 23:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that too many interests are at stake to solve Main Page problems individually by consensus--everyone just argues fervently for their favorite article. There are two possible solutions: employ a rigid system, which is the solution for pictures (they appear in the order they were featured), or have a director. Since we've never had any kind of consensus about what the rigid system would be if there were one, we're left with Raul. It's imperfect, since people bug Raul constantly and he gets (understandably) grouchy about that, but it's the best compromise we've got so far, and Raul stands in the way of total chaos. Chick Bowen 00:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the discussions were going fine on the various talk pages in question. The deletion of the templates could have been done at TfD, but there are arguments for db-author and WP:IAR in Raul's favour. Not too much to discuss here. More input at Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article/requests would be more helpful. Carcharoth 00:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

On the note prior, Jared couldn't be the FA director even if he wanted to be, as he hasn't been given the trust of the community to edit protected pages at this time. Daniel 05:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse Raul654. Oh, wait, that wasn't the question ws it? Oh, no, I see it was. Endorse, then. And also endorse application of the Wikitrout to Jared if he continues this silliness. It ain't broke, and even if it was, this would not be the place to fix it. Guy (Help!) 10:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Please note that there definitely are some problems, but I am definitely not trying to solve them here. That's what the talk pages are for. What I was trying to do here was right a wrong whereby Raul deleted something with little to no community support, knowing darn well there were active objections two sections below. That's what's really irking me here. I just think he thinks he's able to do whatever he wants in regards to the FA/TFA process, and I think he's sadly mistaken. Sure he was ratified as TFA coordinator, but that was a long time ago, had a limited group voting, and frankly, times have changed since then. I was just hoping that someone here could have some sense to talk to him admin-to-admin, telling him that he has overstepped his limits because apparently he doesn't think he has any, or at least that's the impression I get from him. And once again, I not, have never, nor will ever wish to become the TFA dictator; the whole idea of doing so would be against what I've been fighting for for the last couple days. _└┘t  10:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• This is a procedural issue. Any further discussion of the way FA and TFA is handled should take place at Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates, Village Pump, or a similar venue. nadav 10:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Huh? This is nothing to do with Misplaced Pages talk:Featured article candidates. Raul's only involvement with WP:FAC is to carry out the promotions based on the community discussions there. I think you meant Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article and Misplaced Pages talk:Today's featured article/requests. The template discussions could take place at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion and Misplaced Pages:Deletion review. The Village pump is also not the right place to discuss these issues, though a link there advertising the discussion might be appropriate. No offence, but if you are going to direct discussion somewhere else, at least try and link to the right place. :-) Carcharoth 12:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
    • or a similar venue was a catch-all for any place but here. Jared has very controversial ideas that would radically affect a component of Misplaced Pages that has become fundamental: the whole featured content scheme. My point was that discussion of those ideas should take place somewhere where there is a lot of room for long debates, strawpolls, etc. nadav 02:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• I'm not seeing any real issue here. Jayjg 16:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

66.215.28.84 inserting false information?

I've blocked 66.215.28.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for six months for what appears to be repeatedly inserting false information over a period of time, with several blocks in the past for it. The information is usually in video game articles. I'm not sure if I should blindly revert everything- some of the edits appear legit. --Wafulz 01:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow. That's the longest non-indefinite ban I've ever seen. Does it need to be so huge? --Masamage ♫ 01:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Six month blocks are not uncommon, particularly for school and other public IPs. --Wafulz 01:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been keeping an occasional eye on this troublemaker since October (that I recall), over this and one or two other IPs on the same network, one of which shows this behaviour as far back as August. Every time, as soon as the block expires, the same crap. It'll start again in six months exactly, mark my words. Next time, take it to the ISP.--Drat (Talk) 12:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User possibly tried to put Misplaced Pages in trouble with MPAA

User Kirbytime (talk · contribs · block log) has put a secret HD-DVD encryption key that the MPAA has been trying to erase from the web (see news article) and has also pursued legal action in order to prevent publication of the key. This is a bad faith edit, meant to put Misplaced Pages in legal problems. For example from the news site:

DMCA take down notices have been issued to sites like Spooky Action at a Distance and Digg.

The Digg users who published them have even had their accounts closed by mods.

This user's edit and the diff (including my news link, if possible) should be deleted and made inaccessible to protect Misplaced Pages from any possible legal trouble. By the way this is the same user who last week wrote the words "fuck you" in a hidden comment and edit-warred with admins who rightfully tried to remove it. Last week he got blocked for 3RR, abuse, disruptive editing and his block expired today. --Matt57 02:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that is needed, since the key is in the AACS encryption key controversy article. That is certainly worse then a hidden comment. Prodego 02:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh ok. I see, we are safe then. thanks. --Matt57 02:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I just deleted it as "silly keyspam nonsense", which indeed it is. It's pretty close to WP:POINT - Alison ☺ 03:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

kirbytime indef blocked

I'm done with him. I don't care whether the key is on Misplaced Pages or not, but he is just trolling by inserting it in his userspace as a comment. It may be acceptable fair use in the article, it's not fair use in his userspace. I've blocked Kirbytime indefinitely; I don't think he's here for the encyclopedia anymore, if he ever was. If another admin wants to undo the block, I won't scream about it, but unless there is a clear sign of an intent to turn this behavior around, I think it would be ill-advised. ··coelacan 03:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, good call. _InBC 03:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

He's posted an extremely pleasant unblock request. . I don't really understand this whole situation with the key itself; however, it's quite clear to me that Kirbytime posted this as an act of trolling. I will not object to this block given Kirbytime's history of disruption. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 03:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse. We have got to learn the difference between people who are here to help, and people who are not. The former, when they misbehave, get all manner of opportunities to reform, and rightly so. It is too bad we fritter away so much goodwill and energy by extending the same to the second group. Hesperian 03:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

After looking at the block log, I endorse the block. He should have been gone a long time ago. User:Zscout370 03:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

And note the subsequent (not very) veiled threat to sockpuppet. I should say that Kirbytime has just given his block the strongest possible endorsement. Hesperian 03:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep. As long as it's agreed this is a community ban, any puppets can be blocked and reverted on sight. ··coelacan 03:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• I disgree with indef block. The code is certainly not supposed to add anything to encyclopedia but it is not vandalism either. First of all, it is his own userpage. Our contributions to our own userpages are not supposed to be of encyclopedic value in the first place. Having said that, addition of the code on that page was quite unnecessary. BUT it doesn't deserve an indef block. For just adding a hidden message to personal website. It is true that Kibri have had some blocks over "request" for some sex related pics which I don't approve but I think he has stoped that (or please prove me wrong).

I suggest for an indef block, his case should be submitted to Arbcom. --Aminz 03:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Nobody WP:OWNs any pages on Misplaced Pages, including the userpages connected with their accounts. Userpages are not required to be encyclopedic content they way articles are, but they are to facilitate work on the encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is not Myspace, as the saying goes. And trolling on one's userpage is definitely blockable. 75.62.6.237 05:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not a question of encyclopedic content or not; but a question of copyright infringement. It may be fair use in the article, and there are reasonable arguments that it is allowable in the article under WP:NFCC. But that explicitly does not extend to userspace. ··coelacan 03:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

What does fair use have to do with this? --ElKevbo 04:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, but Ctrl-F for "I consider it blatant trolling" below, as I believe the block stands on Kirby's intent, regardless of the exact legality. ··coelacan 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Coelacan, I still don't see how a copyright infringment can justify indef-block. It is too harsh. Indef-blocking of a user means that the user doesn't satisfy even the lower standards expected from a user. --Aminz 04:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. ··coelacan 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the result of an extended pattern of behavior, not just this single issue. _InBC 03:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

agree Kirbytime obviously wansn't indef blocked for the MPAA copyright issue. He was blocked because of a whole series of problems. Neither Misplaced Pages, nor any decent human being, should ever tolerate pedophiles. The FBI keeps files on people who try to search pictures of child pornography... --ProtectWomen 08:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• I disagree with an indefinite block as well. — MichaelLinnear 03:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The problem is that we didn't block the user just for pasting the code; there were plenty of other blocks issued in the past feew weeks for causing disruption, including asking for NSFW images at articles, including Child pornography. I feel like we gave this user way too many chances. User:Zscout370 03:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Zscout370(edit conflict), Kirbitime was asking for addition of pictures but as far as I am aware he has stoped it for awhile (please correct me otherwise). I think it is best to be addressed through RfCs and ArbCom. On the surface, issuing an indef block for some hidden addition to a personal userpage really seems unjustified.--Aminz 03:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Would you prefer if I unblocked and reblocked indefinitely for threatening to sockpuppet? Because he's done that already now. ··coelacan 04:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This kind of case is a waste of time at RFC and a waste of ArbCom's time. Once a troll, always a troll. Editors that take actions like this are not welcome to continue editing here. --Spike Wilbury 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Coelacan, it is his objection to "indef-block" for adding something to personal userpage. I think we are moving too fast. --Aminz 04:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

MichaelLinnear, this is not a vote. Please explain your objection. ··coelacan 03:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It is overly harsh. — MichaelLinnear 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

For the sake of discussion, as you may be able to convince another admin: if the block were reduced, when would we be free from his trolling? When would the games stop? Do you have reason to believe that he's going to improve his behavior? I don't mean to pick a fight or anything; if there's answers to these questions that I and others are overlooking, someone should put them on the table. ··coelacan 05:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

May I conclude that a more appropriate reason for blocking is "exhausting the community's patience"? —Kyриx 03:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you please list User's faults. Please note that I agree that Kirbitime's instance on porn image was disruptive but did he continue this? I think he stopped it (please correct me otherwise) --Aminz 04:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking to me or Coelacan? —Kyриx 04:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

To you actually :) --Aminz 04:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I never expressed an opinion supporting or opposing the block. The above was just a conclusion drawn from observation. So I don't quite get your request. —Kyриx 04:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that :P I misunderstood your comment. --Aminz 04:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Aminz, do you really want me to make a list of his diffs? I'll have to probably split it into 3 columns to prevent the page from getting lengthy. Here's one group diff though: edit-warring with admins. You should support better users of Misplaced Pages. Realize that you will be helped more if you have good users working with you; at the least not anyone who edit wars with admins, requests child porn, writes the words "Fuck you" in a hidden comment, gives a link to Piss Christ and so on. --Matt57 04:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't say that kirbi satisfies the highest standards but that he doesn't fail the lowest ones. Some of these edits may not be justified but may be explained. Aside from these you don't have a good editting record either Matt. --Aminz 04:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with high or low standards of editing, and everything to do with incessant trolling behavior. ··coelacan 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

We all realize that indefinite doesn't mean infinite right? John Reaves (talk) 04:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I hoped to make that clear at the beginning of this section; if another admin honestly thinks he's going to shape up, they can reverse the block. For what it's worth, he's now saying he copied the number there through a sort of misunderstanding. You'll have to read his talk page. But I think the threats of sockpuppetry speak well enough for his intent here. ··coelacan 04:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I would consider unblocking if I could take Kirbytime's protestations of innocence seriously. But his history makes me unable to believe him. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

John Reaves, i think indefinite means infinite. It means that the user fails the minimal standards. --Aminz 04:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't mean infinite. It mean an undefined period of time, i.e. it could eventually be reversed. John Reaves (talk) 04:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I think in practice it means the same thing. --Aminz 04:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. I've seen indefinite blocks overturned. —Kyриx 04:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Heimstern, indef block seems too harsh. Some of the previous blocks were related to asking on the talk pages for porn pictures which was bad but as far as I am aware the user has stoped that to best of my knowledge. --Aminz 04:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Concur with indef. Too much trolling. - Merzbow 04:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I support this long due indef block. This is one of the strongest trolls I've ever seen. The longer you keep this user in, the more trouble he will create for users and admins (edit-wars with admins) and the more you'll keep wondering why he wasnt blocked before.--Matt57 04:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You are far from an impartial party in this. — MichaelLinnear 04:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

For whoever says this is copyright infringement, this is not; it might be a violation of the DMCA, but you cannot copyright a 128-bit number. At best, it qualifies as a trade secret, which means that once released to the public like it is now, it is no longer controllable legally. The DMCA is the only law that applies here, most likely. "Fair use" is irrelevant, from what I know. —Dark•Shikari 04:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The (bad) idea is that it's a circumvention tool and thus subject to the DMCA. I agree that it's daft and that fair use has nothing to do with it. --ElKevbo 04:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, while I will not express an opinion on the block, I would suggest that any block made should be specifically made for the user's incivility and attacks, not for posting a number which has been run in many major news sources such as Wired, Yahoo News, and so forth. —Dark•Shikari 04:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The block should be applied because he deliberately makes edits like this to cause maximum chaos; his history is full of such behavior. - Merzbow 04:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I consider it blatant trolling, the same as if he had written expletives in his html comments (as he did last time). The intended purpose is disruption, even if the action was not a violation of US law. It's WP:POINT either way, and he's given us enough of that. I don't think he's here for the encyclopedia so much as for a "game" inside an encyclopedia; I stand by my block. Again, other admins have the prerogative of reversing the block. I will not. ··coelacan 04:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Merzbow, writing hidden stuff on his personal userpage doesn't harm wikipedia nor produce chaos; I assume he is blocked and he is free at home so he started playing with his userpage. The main problem is with the article not userpages (and even then hidden writings). User pages are not supposed to add anything to the wikipedia.

coelacan, I am not saying he satisfies the highest standards but that indef-block(i.e. failing the lowest standards) seems harsh to me. But that's only me. --Aminz 04:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this "failing the lowest standards" stuff is. An indef block represents my appraisal that the net effect of Kirbytime is more trolling than benefit, and that he's exhausted the patience of too many other editors. How many times has he been on ANI in the last month? How much time have we wasted running around this guy? I'm hoping that when this thread is archived, the answer will be "no more". ··coelacan 04:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the edits he made adding the key, for what it's worth. Might also be worth noting Kirbytime's reasoning for inserting it (I have my doubts - the key was inserted with ":" after each two numbers. This was done presumably to circumvent the blacklist, because I can't think of any time I've seen the key formatted like that...) Ral315 » 04:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It's formatted like that on a couple of websites. — MichaelLinnear 04:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I can't say I have a problem with the block. My only interaction with Kirbytime was the ANI thread where he claimed to be confused about what kind of images constituted child pornography. If someone can demonstrate that he's made recent positive contributions to the encyclopedia, I'd reconsider, but this user seems like a determined, long-term troll to me. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

As far as I am personally aware, the user had stopped that. --Aminz 04:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Because he was blocked for it. So he moved on to other things, like revert warring and html comment games. ··coelacan 04:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not aware of "html comment games". Would you please explain it. Thanks --Aminz 04:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"HTML games" refer to the user putting thing in <!--hidden comments-->. John Reaves (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

One example is this edit. You can't see them just looking at the page, but they show up when you edit. Phony Saint 05:00, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This editor appears to be an unrepentant troll. I was around for his requests for child porn. While he finally gave up that effort he didn't do so quickly. I see some editors here saying he wasn't that bad but I don't see anyone pointing to positive contributions to offset his disruption. On the whole, I think Misplaced Pages is better off without this user's involvement. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 05:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Those who want to review Kirbytime's recent ANI history can see archives 240, 239, 230, 227, 221, 221. ··coelacan 05:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Good block. We don't have to put up with this nonsense from obvious trolls.--Jersey Devil 05:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

an indefinite ban is excessive for vandalizing your own talk pages imho, if he is to be blocked indefinitely it should be done by the arbcom Bleh999 05:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose This block doesn't make sense as the key is out in the open in the Misplaced Pages article on the subject and Jimbo Wales has said there is no problem with posting the key to Misplaced Pages. The indef block for this non-"offense" is totally improper. That said, I am unaware of his past history, just that this latest offense doesn't appear to be an actual "offense." --Abnn 05:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Shall I unblock and reblock for threatening sockpuppetry, instead? Would that make things clearer? ··coelacan 05:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

He didn't actually threaten sockpuppetry from what I read, rather he suggested being unfairly banned drives some to do so, I doubt he would admit he was going to sockpuppet and thus expose his intentions Bleh999 05:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how you can read "It's almost like you guys are asking me to sockpuppet" any other way than "I will sockpuppet". ··coelacan 06:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• I can't comment as I don't know. In all honesty, I can't knowledgeable oppose or support a indefban based on an analysis of his overall behavior as I am not familiar enough with him and this territory. --Abnn 05:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record, he has been helpful in the past: I first met him and encouraged him to help us out on WP:PNT, where we needed people who could read arabic script at the time. He did handle a few cases. But I understand the sentiment behind his indef-block due to his behavior since then and I don't oppose it. Grandmasterka 05:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the block, the editor has been warned several times. (If one considers previous blocks warnings, which I do). block log Anynobody 05:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Kirbytime now threatens "revenge". I don't have enough AGF kool-aid in my cupboard to continue entertaining the possibility of unblocking. Later, ··coelacan 06:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Hos is that athreat of revenge? Viridae 06:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Threat or not, it crossed the line into trolling... again. I have now protected his talk page. Hesperian 06:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

For those that don't know, it is a quote from the Merchant of Venice by Shakespeare: . --Abnn 06:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I knew it was a quote, but it doesn't appear to be a threat - the context of it says that even more. Viridae 08:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Kirbytime had contributed for a year without major problems - I recall him being at some times reasonable and at others contentious and not really standing out in this respect - but recently has for whatever reason gone totally rogue. I was amazed to see him resume edit warring to push a completely ridiculous image (since deleted) immediately after coming off a 24hr block for…well, edit-warring, and having only minutes earlier assured others (sort of) that he wasn't going to immediately resume edit-warring after his block expired.

Re his latest behavior, this explanation strains credulity, and who knows what we should make of this Shakespearean reference? ("And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?") Besides the vague hints of a threat, this continues his very odd line of am-I-Muslim-Jewish-or-atheist identity trolling which like too many of his recent contributions seems designed to draw others into pointless discussions.

Were this block infinite and irrevocable, I suppose I might oppose it, but indefinite is a different matter: he is and should be free to petition for an unblock at some point in the future (say, a couple months from now) if and when he's regained his senses and is prepared to admit to his missteps instead of pretending he doesn't understand why the community is pushing back. In the meantime, I counsel Kirbytime to step away from Misplaced Pages for a bit and not make the situation any worse by sockpuppeting; see User:DavidYork71 for a user who dealt with this situation exactly the wrong way, and a result has probably blown his chances to come back.Proabivouac 07:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I endorse the above statement... He's been okay in the past and we should leave the door open a crack barring further problems. Maybe one problem of his led to another and he let himself snowball out of control... Just a thought. Grandmasterka 08:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• My patience with Kirbytime is certainly exhausted, though my patience is pretty exhaustible these days. I would think that if he asks nicely after a month or so away form the project, to regain his perspective, we would be quite likely to let him back in, but right now he's looking like a time-sink with no obvious payback for the project. Guy (Help!) 09:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow. I didn't know that too many editors are following Kirbi's edits... :D --Aminz 09:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

His name pops up rather too often. I have left a note on his Talk. Guy (Help!) 10:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• The problem with the key is that the consensus over at the controversy article talk page seems to indicate that it should only be presented in the article and nowhere else (that's the primary reason it was added to the spam blacklist-- it was being spammed). - Penwhale | 09:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Kirby deserves a long break (i'd say something like 6 months) to review their behaviour and understand that wikipedia is not a game. Instead of editing the encyclopedia we end up having long discussions that we could have avoided. But indef is surely a harsh block. At least they've contributed plenty of stuff. For me, it should have been 6 months, no more no less. We have had trolling, desruptive and pointy cases much more worse than that but people are still present in the project, probably because they changed their behaviour. For me, it should have been 6 months, no more no less. In brief, if there is someone i totally agree w/ in this thread is Proabivouac. Excellent analysis and synthesis. -- FayssalF - 11:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be considerable support for unblocking at some point in the future if Kirbytime doesn't sockpuppet. So, do we leave the indef on and let him ask after X months, or do we reduce the block now to X months? ··coelacan 21:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I prefer reducing it to 6 months. As i said above, it is too harsh compared w/ many other cases. I don't want to bring names but that is the middle ground i believe. In case of sockpuppetry it will become an indef if not a ban. -- FayssalF - 01:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable.Proabivouac 03:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"too harsh" ? This user was requesting samples of child pornography for Christs sake. Kirbytime not only doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages- he probably belongs in jail. At the very least, he ought to be under some kind of internet equivalent to Megan's law. Too bad we don't have a way to enforce something like that.

FayssalF, you are implying that other users have done worse things than Kirby- if you can name one action worse than trolling for pictures of child porn, please tell me. I'd really like to know.--ProtectWomen 08:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I personally like following structured process when dealing w/ such issues. This is my method as an admin. It could satisfy many people as it could bother many others.

Let us be fair and avoid being emotional. We are not a real-life law enforcement body to put people on jail. We do block and ban users from Misplaced Pages. That is all we can do.

Let's avoid being subjective. As far as the child porno case in concerned, my memory tells me that this issue was considered closed and he got punished and blocked for 48h though it should have been at least a month or that he could have been indef blocked at that time. Since then, he hasn't brought that child porno subject again. So why are we bringing it again and again?

Now, we are talking about his general and overall behaviour. Is is a troll? Yes in many occasions he showed signs of being one. Has he made points? Yes in many occasions. Many have done the same and worse in overall. So i believe now when i say it is too harsh it certainly makes sense and therefore there's no need to bring names because i consider their cases as closed as well until further notice. -- FayssalF - 13:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Um, no, many have not "done the same and worse overall". Anyone who has is permanently blocked. Jayjg 16:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong support for indefinite block. Jayjg 16:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

But what about...

User:Matt57? This post and similar ones derive from stalking Kirbytime, and in some cases it seems Kirby trolled to see if someone (always Matt) would notice it. While I myself can 'monitor' troublesome users at times, Matt's cross the 'stalking' line because he is obviously "hunting" Kirby. Besides, Matt57 is an obvious tendentious editor (anti-Islam direction), which is detrimental to the community. I don't know all of the details as well as others may as I have relatively few dealings with this editor (and they have been unsatisfactory), but I definitely think that doing something about Matt57 is a good idea at this point. Any ideas? The Behnam 15:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how Matt57's actions are relevant in this incident, unless Matt57 is directly inciting Kirbytime to troll. It seems to be the other way around, from what you say. Phony Saint 16:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I definitely think Kirbytime needed a big block awhile back during the porn images thing. I'm just suggesting where things should move next. You know, when you have two problems it is good to get rid of both of them instead of just one. The Behnam 16:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

If Matt57 is really a problem editor, his name would be appearing here in relation to other editors and incidents, and not just with Kirbytime. — MichaelLinnear 23:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Uh, Behnam, what did I do wrong? If someone asks for Child Porn, does it mean I stalked a person if I reported this to admins, or reverted their disruptive edits (for which Kirby was blocked 1 week ago)? Perhaps you think that Chris Hansen is also a potential stalker of Kirbytime. No sorry, and I do have my eye on yours edits () like we all do on everyone else's. Please keep your accusations of stalking or disruptive edits to yourself. --Matt57 17:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Matt57 had been inciting Kirby to do what he's done but that is irrelevant. We cannot prevent/punish people basing on assumptions. -- FayssalF - 16:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Faysal, no I didnt "incite" anyone here. I'm not responsible for Kirbytime's actions of asking for Child porn, wiki linking of Piss Christ, edit warring with admins and all that stuff. Good god. No thanks, I havent done anything wrong except go after him, revert his disruptive edits, report him for trolling and all that. The admins made a mistake to let this vicious troll wreck havoc here. The big question I wonder is: How much damage do you let a troll do before he gets blocked? As for the block time, this user should be blocked for atleast 6-9 months regardless of their request to unblock. I doubt he will change though so he's likely to get blocked again, but then again, all you need is good judgement to see that this user is not here on this website for anything good. He does his work on the Reference desks to cleanse himself of the guilt or to use it as an excuse or 'proof' of his good intentions. Then he goes and interwikis to Piss Christ or edit wars with admins. This is trolling par excellence, as a user said above - pretty obvious. Its simply amazing how much time of the admins this person has wasted.--Matt57 17:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

We just said the same thing Matt. I said it briefier than you. I haven't said you did it. "Maybe" means "suppose" in that sentence. I think you thought i was talking about assumption related to Kirby. No i was talking about the assumptions re you "inciting" him. -- FayssalF - 17:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Matt57 17:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Support - This user should have been gone after the child porn pictures debacle. Instead, Kirbytime was allowed to troll repeatedly with several more blocks until the final (long overdue) indef block. Kudos to coelacan for stepping up todo the right thing --ProtectWomen 16:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
• Second that. Finally, someone gets out the troll spray. I support coelacan's block - as she said earlier, the net effect of Kirbytime was more harm than good. That's justification for a block if I ever saw one. ♠PMC♠ 23:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly support coelacan's bold action. Guy said it best; Kirby is a timesink and his contributions here are not valuable enough to outweigh the community's time that he wastes. Indef is the way to go here. Perhaps it could be lifted in the future if Kirby demonstrates that he understands the apropriate way to behave, but I don't see any reason to just slap an arbitrary time limit on this block and hope he gets a clue in that time period.--Isotope23 17:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Evidence?

I find it shocking that KirbyTime is blocked. He was such a resonable editor. In anycase, was there ever an RfC filed? Is there any compilation of evidence (edits) the KirbyTime has been trolling? Has KirbyTime been allowed to respond to these arguments?

It seems to me the block has come out of nowehere. Can someone clarify this. Thanks.Bless sins 23:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I think if you read the above thread, and Kirbytime's talk page, you will find the answers to all your questions. ··coelacan 23:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Talk page?

If Kirbytime is indefinitely blocked, how is it that he is still able to edit his talk page? Just curious. ---Cathal 18:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism by User:58.71.21.66

This editor has made unsource, controversial edits to Alan Peter Cayetano (among others) and because of this, the said article was noted on the running breaking-news account on the in the Philippines. I submitted a RFP for this article, but soon after this user again vandalized the same article. I've placed warnings on this user's talk page. Thanks! --- Tito Pao 06:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The user has been blocked for 48 hours.--Jersey Devil 06:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! ^___^ --- Tito Pao 06:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Art Dominique

Banned user Art Dominique is evading his ban again by using sock puppets: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Art_Dominique. --Whiskey 08:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• Dimitri Harlamov (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) shows nothing in the block log. But I can't block; MediaWiki tells me the user is already blocked. I imagine Fut. Perf. has blocked, but does anybody know more about this bug? ··coelacan 21:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

  Unblocked and reblocked just so we know it sticks—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Freedom of speech

I admit that i don't understand what the recent link added to Freedom of speech is actually linking to, but it appears to me that linking from an article to a user's talk page — User:Advocates For Free Speech — is, at the least, unusual. Someone want to take a look? (And if possible, explain what the h... this is???) thanks, Richard Myers 10:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Advocates For Free Speech's link has been removed, but what concerns me more is his userpage and talk page, if he attempting to be a "wiki-lawyer"? Ryan Postlethwaite 11:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it may also be a role account. Advocates, "Our purpose", "We defend", "We inform". --OnoremDil 11:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This guy is presumably a sock (role account or not) of indef blocked User:Bully-Buster-007. The way, the truth, and the light 11:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

already blocked as a sock. Ryan Postlethwaite 11:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

In his defense(?), I did find "The virus in the sandbox" section of his page interesting in a "can anyone really be that stupid" way. --MediaMangler 11:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Was still being nonsensical (reverting block notices etc.), so page blanked and protected. Review welcome. Daniel 13:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Some background references:

1. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam/2007 Archive May#workforall.net
2. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam/2007 Archive May#Requestion
3. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam#The workforall.net spammer meets the sandbox fire-parrot -- for everything else, there's Mastercard (Permanent link)
4. User_talk:Requestion#workforall.net_linkspam (Permanent link)
5. User_talk:Requestion#Please_stop_indiscriminate_mass_destruction (Permanent link)
6. User_talk:Ioannes_Pragensis#Can_You_help_against_vandalism_.3F (Permanent link)
7. Talk:Economic_data#Workforall.net_external_link
8. User_talk:Kuru#ciber_bullying (Permanent link)
9. User_talk:Bully-Buster-007#Welcome.2C(Permanent link)
10. meta:Talk:Spam blacklist/Archives/2007/04#workforall.net linkspam (Permanent link)
11. User talk:Jitse Niesen#80.200.73.228 (Permanent link)

--A. B. 16:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I put his talk page back up. It doesn't seem to do any harm and may stop him from creating another sock for the same thing. It's protected now anyway. The way, the truth, and the light 11:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Now it's a copy of User talk:Bully-buster-007. The way, the truth, and the light 11:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

As the victim of the majority of workforall.net's abuse I just want to say that it's fine by me if the comments / propaganda are reinstated. As User:A. B. mentioned, it might prevent future re-creation of the same thing. The discussion at User_talk:Bully-Buster-007 might also be a useful record of the events that transpired. I leave this up to your better judgement. (Requestion 17:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC))

User:Nembard

This user has been maing useless edits malignig some of his friends and even created a new article for this purpose See contribs: A block would be helpful.--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 11:32, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

All edits reverted and warned. Ryan Postlethwaite 11:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

MDS International / MDS America conflict bothering Misplaced Pages

→ See also: MDS International section on Conflict of interest/Noticeboard

Ok. We've been here before. I know it has much to do w/ WP:COI but the latest developments have gone beyond that. Believe me, i consider this case the most difficult one i've handeled so far and that's why i need help. This is the situation in brief:

1. MDS America is in a legal conflict w/ MDS International (based in France). Notice that MDS Intl. redirects to MVDDS dispute as its article has been deleted twice (went thru DRV).
2. Both MDS America employees (User:Bhimaji, User:WizardOfWor, maybe User:Macrhino as well though i am not sure, but of course many IPs hailing from Stuart, Florida where the company is located. Also User:72.19.4.235 claimed once that he is the CEO of MDS America who already got an article called Kirk Kirkpatrick) and MDS Intl User:Jeanclauduc aka User:83.206.63.250 (claiming he is the CEO of MDS Intl) ones have been editing in wikipedia and they have been edit warring of course and in many occasions personal attacks and uncivility have been noticed.
3. On The account User:Fabrice10 has been created on May 2nd. His first edit was at the AfD page claiming he is the son of User:Jeanclauduc and that he is still a shareholder of MDS Intl while cooperating w/ MDS America. What we can get from that is that the alleged father and son are engaged in a family business conflict as well!!!
4. I've tried to mediate between the two sides as you can get from the ANI link above (because User:Jeanclauduc speaks French but poor English) but he stopped cooperating after i asked him a few questions for clarification but he never contacted me again.
5. On May 15th, User:83.206.63.250 has personally attacked and threatened User:Fabrice10 to divulge personal info about their family affairs. In fact he has already done it in French. As a result User:Kuru blocked him for 31 hours. His alleged son Fabrice10 has just divulged on my talk page some info about him which i've just removed.
6. Editors User:Nadav1 and User:EdJohnston as well as User:Ronz and User:zzuuzz have tried to sort this mess out but in vain.
7. For more information please refer to this case at WP:COI/N

Maybe i missed some facts/incidents but all i want is a community opinion. Blocking Jeanclauduc indef would not fix the problem as we have the COI stuff going on here w/ employees of a company are editing many related topics. -- FayssalF - 12:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I want to personally thank FayssalF for having the patience and fortitude for dealing with this very complicated case. The file over at WP:COIN has been open for over a month now, and while some progress has been made in sorting out the COI issues, there is still much to be done. What has made this saga especially difficult for me, and perhaps has also tried the patience of other editors who have tried dealing with this, is the constant bickering and personal attacks that have continued to appear on the talk pages. Some of these attacks, namely those emanating from the presumed JC Ducasse, have grown especially viscious as of late. I hope other editors can suggest some sort of solution to this whole mess. nadav 12:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

How about soft-protecting the two articles and their talk pages? I've never seen talk pages protected before, but it would stop or at least heavily reduce the bickering there. Maybe merge MDS America into MVDDS dispute first as proposed? --Ronz 18:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

That won't solve the problem radically. There a conflict of interests in play. I believe a RfC would be the best option for now. But let's wait for some feedbacks here and see. -- FayssalF - 19:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ronz's solution could work. It would at least stop the barrage of anon IP's. Currently, there is little non-disputed material in MDS America: despite repeated pleadings from the regular editors, all the effort from the SPA's has been channelled either into the fighting, or else into technical discussions that are unsourced and probably don't belong in the article anyway. Kuru has been trying recently to direct the parties' attention towards improving the article rather than fighting, but this has been tried before and has not worked. I added citation needed tags for the material in MDS America some time ago, but nothing has been forthcoming. MVDDS dispute and MVDDS are basically the only articles for which there are secondary sources out there. Since the parties seem intent on using the talk pages as a battle ground despite our perpetual warnings, I am tempted to agree that talkpage semiprotection is the cure. nadav 06:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Your summary is both inaccurate and insulting, nadav. I am not "intent on using the talk pages as a battle ground." I have been attempting to have a reasonable discussion on the topic matter. Any objective reading of the edit history will show that Jean Claude has been intent on battling on any talk page he can find.

Regarding your claim that the talk page contains too many "technical discussions that are unsourced and probably don't belong in the article anyway," I've been attempting to answer questions from un-involved editors about some of the technology. If a neutral editor is interested enough in the article to be asking questions of me, I feel that it is appropriate for me to spend my time helping them understand the technology. Hopefully this will allow them to edit the article as they feel appropriate from an NPOV.

Regarding the citation tags you mention: I should have noticed them sooner. The first one is for material that is actually in the MVDDS article. The second one is a request for a citation indicating that we don't buy our systems from Jean Claude's company, MDSi - I'll see if I can find a citation, but Jean Claude's edit history here should make it quite obvious that we don't have an ongoing business relationship with him. The third citation is in-progress - we're going to release the network diagram for an operational system.

Perhaps it's true that some people from MDSA are too easily trolled into responding to Jean Claude. Personally, I find it difficult to criticize somebody for responding to a threat to distribute pornographic pictures of their wife. The fact that Jean Claude is permitted to continue his diatribes on Misplaced Pages is the fundamental cause of the problem. It is challenging to have a civil and productive discussion when such insults are the most frequent diffs you see.

If you'll look at my own talk page, you'll note that at least one NPOV editor felt that my edits on the MDSA article were good. I'm not trying to brag, I just feel that I am being unfairly criticized by nadav. Bhimaji 13:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't take his criticisms personally. It is a fair statement that both parties are involved in an edit war, but your own, personal responses have been level headed and patient. I'd like to try this one last attempt at ferreting out the actual conflict with the article, if there is one. I've proposed refactoring the talk page to remove all the off-topic crap - if there's no serious objections. If this fails and turns into a edit war/rant, then we can go nuclear. Kuru 13:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I am Fabrice, I have been dealing with my father for years. Up to now, no one (MDSA or various editors) has ever insulted my father or criticized him in these talks. Whatever anyone is writing, JC Ducasse (JCD) will argue forever. Up to now everything he wrote is incorrect. Say black, he will say white; say white he will say black. The only way for cooling him down is to let him say anything he wants and no one should answer or comment what he say (at all). Eventually his comments could just be removed without bringing any comment.
We could argue with JCD forever, but has all his claims are not correct it will be a loss of time.
But just as an example, for arguing against the KU band broadband solution that I designed in 1996 and later improved with MDSA, JC Ducasse is mentioning in these talks a "patent" that he say having filed in 1985
But this is not a pattent and it has no relation with what we are alking about.
JC Ducasse is referring to the document available on MDSi Web site http://www.mds.fr/patent/patent.html
It is not a patent it is what is called an “enveloppe Soleau”. (i-DEPOTs ?)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/Enveloppe_Soleau
http://www.ipr-helpdesk.org/newsletter/6/html/EN/howToProtectYourInvention.html (in English)
The purpose of this "envellope" is just to show that the writer knew the process before any patent can be written.
The process for registering this "enveloppe" is the following : JCDucasse wrote 2 envelopes and sent them to the intellectual property (IP) office in 1987 (not 1985). Then the IP office keep one envelloppe and send the other one with a date stamp to JCD.
Then, if someone else patent the same process, the owner of the enveloppe can use the process for his personal usage (not commercial).
Once the enveloppe is OPEN (like on MDSi web site), then it became null. It has to be opened during a court case in front of a judge.
In addition, the Soleau Enveloppe of JCD is not mentioning any Internet or broadband at all. In 1987 the Internet was not popular enough for being known and mentioned by JCD.
The "envellope" is just describing the american MMDS process (70s) and is mentioning “ ANALOG TV broadcast (video and audio) using hyperfrequencies” (No satellite sharing, No digital, No internet, ....). It was demonstrated during Northpoint trial that such process couldn’t be patented.
In addition, MMDS was already existing before JCD wrote the Soleau enveloppe. By renaming the "enveloppe Soleau" into "Patent" JCD creates a confusion and is feeding the debates with incorrect information which are very difficult to control.
Sorry for this long message . --Fabrice10 16:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:Wc systemic vandalism

• The welcome committee's main greeting page is looking like it's in an edit war and has apparently become a vandalism target here. Can someone(s) add it to thier watch list, and if this goes on, perhaps throw a page protect on it for a few weeks. It's been hit so hard, it bounce me out to my homepage when viewing on MSIE6 as reported WT:WC#Vandalism_or_Our_Page_Problem. T'would be appreciated. (this page is currently doing that same old tired IE6 dance too! Sigh!) // FrankB 12:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
• Someone should probably oversight-away this edit with personal information: —dgies_c 14:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Pikimon Vandalism

This user struck again at WP:AR2. Can an Admin halt this? Bearian 12:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any recent vandalism there. That user's last edit to WP:AR2 was in March. Resurgent insurgent 13:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ditto. If I'm missing something, please let me/us know. A diff link is a quick way to point us in the right direction, if you need to. – Luna Santin (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Block review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Libsmasher (talk · contribs) blocked indefinitely; block supported by commentators. MastCell 20:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Libsmasher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an account which, as the name suggests, exists solely to "correct" Misplaced Pages's liberal bias. Or rather,m to quote his user talk, To me, there is nothing more satisfying than crushing the myths that a liberal lives by, i.e., that FDR solved the Great Depression, that JFK actually WON the 1960 election, or that LBJ's war on poverty, the cost at over 30 TRILLION dollars, was effective. No prizes for guessing, then, what happened to this editors contributions to Mike Farrell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Ed Asner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and so on. This choice one, for example: , which includes a link to a right-wing site on Mike Farrell with the link summary Critical article on Farrell's involvement in left-wing ANTI-AMERICAN politics - Libsmasher's own capitalisation. It's highly likely that this is the same individual as made these anonymous edits: , and so on. Libsmasher's provocative username and tendentious edits to biographies of living individuals seemed to me to be grounds enough for a block, but Libsmasher disagrees. From his emails to me:

I love rubbing the face of people like you in the dirt. You have a little power and turn into a censor-nazi. Just because Britain is like that, doesn't mean the rest of the world is. I am the frigging KING of open source intelliegence and here is the date and page number of the article from the LA Times.

TV Doctor From `MASH' Scrubs Up For Salvador Surgery: by MARJORIE MILLER. Los Angeles Times, Aug 11, 1985. p.17.

Under heavy police guard, Farrell and neurosurgeon Alejandro Sanchez worked for 2 1/2 hours to restore use of the right hand of Nidia Diaz, a commander of the Revolutionary Party of Central American Workers, a faction of the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front.

Now unblock me and quit freaking messing with my posts on Farrell.

Keep it up and I'll see about getting your admin status ended.

I've emailed the situation to people further up the food chain to have me unblocked as well as removing your admin status. It cost me ten bucks to have the microfiche of the story researched at the LA Public Library but well worth it. BTW, vice wiping my posts, you should have stream-lined them as per Wiki rules. Have a nice day and reast assured, my next email goes to the co-founder on this.

I take this as garden variety rouge admin abuse bullshit, but invite review of the block anyway. By co-founder I assume he means Larry Sanger, much good may it do him, though if it's Jimbo perhaps he'll have done the world a service by giving the God-King a belly laugh to relieve the 09:F9 foolishness. Guy (Help!) 12:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I personally consider edits starting w/ stuff like "Mike's work seems to be enabling terrorism, especially against the USA" as BS. Libsmasher argues that it is referenced and the source was FrontPage mag. Of course there is a BLP issue here as the edit is so inflated and biased. It sounds as if Libsmasher jumped to a conclusion that even the FP mag couldn't do.

However, the indef is too harsh especially that it was his first. Can they learn from their mistake if he'd have gotten a month block?

No way, i've just see the "I love rubbing the face of people like you in the dirt" stuff. Well done Guy! -- FayssalF - 13:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup. That degree of bias and aggression is generally not reformable. Guy (Help!) 13:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all, he has made no edits outside his talk page and yours since December of 2005, so blocking him would not seem to be much of a problem for anyone. He has been 'contributing' as 147.103.49.141, but what he added on Mike Farrell and Ed Asner violated the biography policy. Adding 'Liberalism' under 'See also' at Non sequitur (absurdism) was clearly not a good-faith attempt to improve the encyclopedia. He seems not to care, and to intend to continue doing what he came here for - telling The Truth about liberals - so the blp violations and vandalism will continue unless he is blocked. Looks like a good call to me. Tom Harrison 13:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup, good call, Tom said what I wanted to better than I was going to. _InBC 13:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block. The user's only apparent purpose here is to push an extreme POV (as admitted by the user). Rack it up as a disruption-only account, even without the threatening e-mails. · jersyko talk 14:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block. Such disruptive users seldom reform. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block per not a battleground.Proabivouac 15:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You do realize that if we indef-block him, the terrorists win? MastCell 16:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC) Sorry. Support indef block. MastCell 16:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block - Having a point of view is one thing; POV-warring openly and proudly is short trip to long ban. Bye bye. Georgewilliamherbert 18:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block. Nothing positive is going to come from this user. -- ChrisO 18:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Obviously we don't want wankers like this wasting our time. This was a good block. --Tony Sidaway 18:19, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No need to resort to name calling, even towards disruptive users. _InBC 18:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, I was referring to a troll who had made about seventy edits in total over a period of eighteen months, was devoted to abusing Misplaced Pages in order to pursue his virulent hatred for those he regarded as his political rivals, including Cher, Mike Farrell, and Ed Asner. His edits sometimes descended to blatant vandalism, and he was quite clear about his intentions. Let's not dignify him with the name "user". --Tony Sidaway 20:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. I think we're done here. MastCell 20:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Request

I think you should take a look at this and this SDas 15:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

All that needs to be done is reverting and warning the anon. If he continues after warnings, you go to WP:AIV. Phony Saint 15:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I did revert. But I don't think I can risk warning. Besides, adding expletives and nonsense is the clearest case of vandalism. The author's intention is evident. SDas 15:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about that. Anyone can warn in cases of blatant or clear vandalism. Just make sure you are using the appropriate template. This link list all the templates related to warnings. -- FayssalF - 15:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I put a warning on his talk page. Even in a clear case of vandalism, he won't be blocked unless he's been given warnings first. Phony Saint 15:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I placed a warning on the other IP, although they clearly belong to the same person. SDas 15:53, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, he might be, if the blocking admin is WP:ROUGE enough, but yes, except in ridiculously blatant or recurrent cases it is certainly best to warn first. Guy (Help!) 21:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

WP is communism

Has there been a resurgence of WP = Communism vandalism lately? Or did it ever really subside? I just blocked 128.6.175.61 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for making a series of edits similar to this one. Just wondering if this is part of a trend. · jersyko talk 16:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a fan or something? The problem is that the IP hails from the Rutgers University as you've found out and i am not sure what Misplaced Pages can do apart from contacting the university! -- FayssalF - 16:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Need a second set of eyes

They call me Mr. Pibb (talk · contribs) has been blocked repeatedly for WP:NPA violations and edit warring. He was originally blocked by me for edit warring on Metromedia. He subsequently was blocked by Alphachimp on April 8th for disruption, personal attacks, edit warring. I blocked him again last night after he started making personal attacks again. He's left some choice words on his talk page, and on my talk page, under an IP here, which reveal some misunderstandings about basic policy (for example, he wasn't banned, he was blocked, and he was warned repeatedly before anyone ever blocked him). In cases where a user has made threats of ongoing harassment against another user, and has shown no ability to keep civil, refrain from making personal attacks, etc, I'd usually block for a while, but as I'm the dude he's threatening to harass "over and over and over and over and over and over again", I'm no longer an uninvolved party. There's also the question of possible sockpuppetry going on over at talk:Metromedia. Mr Pibb wasn't active until a flare-up between other editors, and he suddenly reappeared on the page, within hours. I've already blocked the IP that made the comment on my talk page (no other contributions from that IP before), but there are other IPs involved. Thoughts? Firsfron of Ronchester 16:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I've indefinitely blocked the Mr. Pibb account... I see an escalating example of unacceptable behavior on his talk page, and his threat to continue harassing you leads me to view this as entirely preventive. Given the abuse of his talk page, I'm going to protect it as well. I'll recommend that if he wants to be considered for unblocking, he email unblock-en-l since he won't be able to use the {{unblock}} template. If rotating-IP harassment becomes an issue, you could go to checkuser/Requests for IP check. Thoughts on the appropriateness of this approach? MastCell 18:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review and block. So far, no other problems have popped up. If they do, I can take it to CheckUser. Best, Firsfron of Ronchester 04:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

FatherTree

This user is harrassing me, and other editors, despite being asked to stop. He is also making false accusations. His comments and style are remarkably similiar to that of Sarner, who was blocked on several occassions for similiar behavior. Exmples of Personal Attacks and harrassment can be found in the following diffs:

1. . ]
2. . ]
3. . ]
4. . ]

The dispute is about the Attachment Therapy article, and also involves two other editors who are making false accusations and Personal Attacks, StokerAce, who has had problems before in this regard, and Fainites. See diffs: False Accusation: ] ] ] RalphLender 17:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC) And who appear to be working in concert regarding this issue. ] ] RalphLender 17:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Related previous disputed include the following: ] ]

I am not sure how to pursue this. I really think some direct administrative action is necessary. If you can direct me about how to try to resolve this tangled dispute, I'd appreciate it. RalphLender 16:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a contentious issue. I just protected Attachment_Therapy due to edit warring. However this has been going on a long time and may involve conflicts of interest. - ·:·Will Beback ·:· 17:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ralph, I honestly don't see any personal attacks or harassment in those diffs. Mangojuice 17:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

OK. given the level of edit warring and past history here, and the number of single-purpose accounts (relatively new editors who only edit this article), I do think Administrator intervention would be helpful....If you could become involved that would help. (Maybe Will_Beback, since you have already been involved by putting on the much needed freeze) I am concerned that a small group, mainly single-purpose new users, don't want to even consider mediation....Your help or advice on how to proceed would really be a big great help. Thanks. RalphLender 18:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Now the group (Maypole, Fainites, FatherTree, and StokerAce) are refusing mediation and demanding Arbitration...but I thought one had to try mediation before going to that step. I see this as another attempt by them to avoid trying to find a consensus and agrement. RalphLender 19:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I can assure you that all of those mentioned are happy to find consensus. The problem is, at this stage RalphLender,DPeterson and others are objecting to things like fixing broken links and tracking down relevant peer-reviewed articles. It makes things very difficult. StokerAce 21:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Given StokerAce's history of conflict on this page and that his is largely a single-purpose account, I think it very important to get Administrative support to work to consensus or have an admin decision made...In any event, Attachment Therapy needs a second set of eyes and some intervention...perhaps mediation. RalphLender 21:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I tried to edit by consensus for weeks. I made no edits at all to the actual article until agreement was reached on each paragraph. I put up with the rudeness and unreasonable demands of the dominant group and their constant polls. When we finally reached consensus I posted the results, only to have it almost instantly perverted to include yet again, another promotional push for Becker-Weidman, contrary to what was agreed. Forgive me therefore for being a little cynical about your happiness to reach consensus. As for your complaint about Father tree, you have been asked many times to fix the links for your edit about organisations position statements. I fixed one for you, but couldn't find your other sources. When the broken or missing links were brought to your attention, this was the response ] 00:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello all. I think I'm a relative outsider to this. AT is a new subject to me as I came here with an interest mostly in hypnotherapy. I can see that some of the arguments above are a little inaccurate factually. I don't see much in the way of personal attack anywhere. People have been reminding each other of any known possible biases though. I do think arbitration would be helpful though I havn't been through one before. I don't think anyone is refusing mediation. Some may have voted no, but thats not exactly a refusal in my mind. I am undecided about mediation. There does seem to be some resistance to improving the article from some members and perhaps thats where mediation might help. I'm happy the article has been frozen. There are some glaringly obvious improvements to make that some have reverted already and I find that rather odd. I wish to get to the bottom of it. There do seem to me to be sockpuppets pro-DDP. They also seem to me to be arguing from the position of that of interested parties. Well, I like to do one project at a time, so I will be happy to persist with getting all relevant views into the article at some point. Balance and weight will have to be something for us to work on together. Arbitration sounds fine, mediation may possibly be helpful. Maypole 06:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

TTN

This User Merged Spongebob Squarepants With the Simpsons! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sethdoe92 (talk • contribs)

You're Dead! is not an acceptable message to leave on someone's page, and TTN did not merge Spongebob with the Simpsons. --OnoremDil 17:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Just blocked Sethdoe for a week for that behavior. Mangojuice 17:56, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the message here, as attacks are allowed to be removed. Acalamari 18:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

207.28.221.97

This user returned from a temporary block and vandalised several pages today including the Did You Know. Canuckle 18:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Not a very fast problem, but nothing but problems for awhile. Blocked for now. You may want to report future such vandalism problems to WP:AIV for faster response, in the future. :) – Luna Santin (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Pietras1988

This user (contribs) appears to have been canvassing for a long period of time, though it apears that no one has complained before. His canvassing request states that he would like the user to create an interwiki link for the Kurów article (which, I guess, is his hometown), and includes external links to what appears to be other wikis that aren't Misplaced Pages-sponsored. After warning him on his talk page, he blanked the page. --Jhortman 18:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

... and, shortly after my first post here, left a personal attack on my talk page and re-blanked his talk page. (diff) --Jhortman 18:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

"I hate you" hurts, but it's not quite a personal attack. I'd agree that something should be done about him, though. Phony Saint 18:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You're probably right... I probably should have called it "uncivil" and referenced WP:CIVIL instead. I think my initial point is valid, though. --Jhortman 18:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Pietras1988's edit summary ("revert after fucking vandal. Please about ban for him") when removing Jhortman's warning was definitely uncivil and, IMHO, a personal attack. I would recommend a short-term block if further incidents occur as warnings do not seem to be terribly effective. --ElKevbo 19:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's also worthy of note that the user also blanked an NPA warning that ElKevbo put on his talk page with the edit summary "not important." (history) I'm seriously not trying to "go after" this guy or anything... it just seems to me like he's being pretty blatant. --Jhortman 06:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Macedonia-related disruption

Sysin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a hardline Greek nationalist with a history of POV-pushing and edit-warring, particularly concerning issues relating to the Republic of Macedonia, which is controversial in Greece. In recent weeks he's continued to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point and push a nationalist POV by repeatedly deleting references to the country's name and recreating deleted templates, for which he has already been warned by myself and Andrwsc. The most recent episode has been edit-warring over Template:European Union Labelled Map, in which he has repeatedly deleted the spelled-out version of the acronym "FYROM" , even though it's already been explained that acronyms should be spelled out (as per WP:MOS#Acronyms and abbreviations). He has done the same in Via Egnatia, replacing the country's name with the acronym FYROM. I've seen this sort of thing before - it's a standard tactic among Greek ultranationalists who reject the country making any use of the word "Macedonia".

I'm not going to block Sysin myself since I've been trying (apparently without success) to explain our standards and guidelines, but given his persistent disuptive behaviour, edit warring and POV-pushing I believe a block for WP:POINT violations would be in order. I'd be grateful if an uninvolved admin could implement the block.

In the meantime, the issue of Macedonia-related terminology is under discussion in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). Comments would be welcomed. -- ChrisO 18:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

They've only done 8 edits in the last week; the FRYOM issue is clearly contentious, but the only other recent apparently controversial thing is a translation spelling issue on which they have some other editors agreeing with them. This doesn't look like it needs ANI intervention to me. Georgewilliamherbert 20:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It may be worth asking User:NikoSilver to have a word. Jkelly 20:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

My response is already posted on the Talk page for the template.

1) ] clearly is intended for text and not on maps, where design and space considerations are critical. See Template:World Labelled Map and Template:United_States_Labelled_Map where the use of both acronyms and abbreviations is a high multiple of that in the tamplate in question. On clickable maps, a simple click or even a hover will quickly explain any acronym.

2) I have no political objection to spelling out "the former ..." as I often do so myself. I would, for example, object to anyone trying to fully spell out or footnote Luxembourg on the map, as it will crowd the map and ruin its design. In this case, the footnote that ChrisO wants to add appears like a label on the map (since it is placed where a label would normally be, and there is no other label to draw focus away from it). The map of the EU is then, at first look, labeled as a map of one country.

3) It is interesting that ChrisO only objects to the FYROM acronym, and not to other abbreviations on the map ("Lux.", "Neth."), which clearly demonstrates that he cares little about the MOS and this is just a lot of self-serving hand waving.

sys < in 09:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Australian Gov't IP?

Came across the following request for unblock for 58.169.25.55 (talk · contribs). The claim in the unblock request seems credible. Perhaps it should be switched to a soft block? Pastordavid 18:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Why does it appear this is going unnoticed? If this is really part of the Australian Government would we have to report that to The Wikimedia Foundation Communications Committee quickly? The Australian government isn't on the government ip list. But we haven't bothered to put Australian government IPs there. Funpika 19:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

It already is a soft (anon only) block, and the IP appears to be Telestra (a big generic ISP) rather than a government IP. There is no general need to pay special attention to government IPs anyway. The reason the US House and Senate IPs are listed is because of publicity surrounding negative editing of Congresscritters' bios by other Congresscritters' staffs. There are probably millions of government IPs that we don't make any special fuss over. Thatcher131 19:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Telstra is "a big generic IP" but is also majority owned by the Australian Government, and some employees there would still class themselves as working "for the government", but not in an equivalent sense to the US examples above. I'd concur that no special treatment is needed in this case (and I was the blocking admin). --Steve _(Stephen) 22:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem, that's why I posted it here - so that people who know more about these things than I do could give it the once over. Pastordavid 22:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Another account gone comprimized?

It has come to my attention that Kaori (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been vandalizing pages as though the account has been comprimized ("I have hacked Misplaced Pages..."). It has been blocked, but, what is happening? --24.136.230.38 20:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The password was reset and the account unbocked. Probably the new password was mailed to the user's registered e-mail address. Thatcher131 20:39, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

More spoiler nonsense

In this edit User:Doc glasgow blanked {{spoiler}} although it was speedy kept not deleted at a recent TfD, and there is now a general discussing on the sue of spoilers at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Policies/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning Blanking this template (which is protected) before consensus on the use or non-use of spoilers is achieved seems little short of vandalism, particularly given the many pages thus affected. i have reverted. DES 21:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but whatever happened to assuming good faith? I, for one, think Doc's edit, which he explains on the talk page as temporary, is a good idea because it will prevent fighting over it in article space. You, however, have misused the rollback tool, and your "speedy kept" at tfd comment is a falsehood; the debate was postponed because of the rfc. Picaroon (Talk) 21:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I speedily closed the TFD to centralize discussion. That was not a "keep" decision, but a "debate elswehere" decision. Kusma (talk) 21:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me explain. and DES should have considered discussion before he machine reverted me as a vandal and accused me of bad faith. The MfD/RfC demonstrates that there is currently no consensus for the policy of using {spoiler}. Indeed there is probably an outright majority against it. Despite that removing these templates even from articles like Mary Poppins can been reverted claiming their is a 'standard policy'. There is evidently no such thing - there is no consensus. I blanked the template as a temporary measure until policy is clarified. If there is shown to be a consensus for the use of such things (which I think is hightly unlikely) then fair enough. But don't let these unencyclopedic things stand without consensus.--Doc 21:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This does seem rather odd. Perhaps I'm not in full possession of the facts, but it seems to me that yesterday there was a spirited debate about this in the form of an MfD, which was finally closed because this was not the place to discuss policy, and not because a clear consensus was reached. Today, the template is suddenly blanked. It is protected, so only administrators can participate in this game. But the reason given "I am blanking this temoplate. The MfD/RfC on the policy page, shows there is no consensus for its use. Rather then delete it, I shall blank it until consensus for its use is arrived at" seems odd. Is this the norm: to delete things while there is no consensus for its use? Since equally, there is no consensus for changing things, and no consensus for removal. I don't care about the template particularly, but I don't really like to see what seems to be a fait accompli victory for one particular "side" in a debate that wasn't concluded. The use of adminstrative powers in this dispute does seem to raise it above a content dispute; the admistrator involved doesn't seem to be a disinterested party, seeming to have strong views in the debate. If this is considered to be proper, then at least be tidy and blank the end-spoiler template too. Notinasnaid 21:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The template was long-time protected to prevent against vandalism. There is nothing to stop an admin editing it. It was not protected due to any dispute. So the use of admin tools is not relevant. The point is that people are enforcing the use of this template on classic fictional works without any consensus and making the encyclopedia look ridiculous. I took the view that given the lack of consensus for its use - I would remove pending further discussion. Unfortunately, DES rather than discuss with me assumed bad faith, used his vandal rollback, and engaged in personal attacks. But there you go.--Doc 21:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There is, in fact, a dispute going on -- the reverts yesterday on both the template and many pages that use it make that painfully clear. if the page had not been previously protected due to vandalism, particularly because it is a high-usage template, it would surely have been protected yesterday because of the current dispute. Since you have been quite active in expressing your views in the dispute, and at least somewhat active in disputed edits over the placement of spoiler tags, i knew perfectly well that you knew about the dispute. Editing with the summary "improving the encyclopedia" does not sound like something intended to be a "temporary" change. I ask again, why the rush to judgment? If you are convinced that consensus is against the use of spoiler tags, why not wait a week or two and see what develops from the discussion now at hand? Do you really claim that blanking a widely used template, that is at the center of a large ongoing dispute, without waiting for consensus to form one way or the other is editing in good faith? I note that you blanked it again and were reverted by another editor. It appears that I am not alone in thinking that this is an unwise edit at this time. DES 21:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

And the wisdom of my action is a matter for discussion, not assumptions of bad faith and personal attacks. I am happy to be though wrongheaded - but I'm not happy to be insulted. AS for my second revert - I reverted you - since you had had the discourtesy to use a vandalism rollback tool without explanation. When another editor disagreed and reverted - I let the revert stand. Discussion continues. But refusing to assume good faith, using personal attacks and then bringing the dispute here is not the way to go.--Doc 01:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• My memory was mistaken about how the TfD result was expressed, i apologize for that error. While it is probably true that there is currently no consensus, certainly no clear consensus, for the continued use of the spoiler templates as they have been sued for several years, There is equally certainly no clear consensus not to use them at all. Given all this, I do not see how blanking a widely used protected template with the edit summary of "improving the encyclopedia" can be seen as anything but an action taken against the previous consensus, without waiting for a new consensus to form, which is not how I thought good-faith edits to the project were supposed to be conducted. What is the rush? why not wait until there is some sort of resolution to the discussions now in progress? DES 21:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Oedipus kills his father and marries his mother; Sydney Carton dies; Frodo lives, and the Rhinemaidens swim off with ring. Tom Harrison 01:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ed's wife commits suicide while awaiting trial for the murder of her boss (who was actually killed by Ed in self-defense). After the road-head scene, Ed is arrested for the murder of the dry-cleaning pansy (who was actually killed by Ed's wife's boss in retribution for the $10,000 blackmail, which was actually committed by Ed). Ed dies. —freak(talk) 02:18, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

And Little Bo Peep lost her sheep. Quick, add the spoiler tags! Picaroon (Talk) 02:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

And Timmy fell down a well! —freak(talk) 04:55, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

User:68.194.0.108

The IP has vandalized List of Backyard Kids even after a final warning was given. Deletion Quality 22:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC) :He did not vandalize after a warning. You didn't even bother to tell him the consequences of vandalizing. Funpika 22:10, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Whoops looking at wrong ip. Funpika 22:13, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep the ip you mentioned DID vandalize after final warning, unlike the one that I mistook for the one you reported. This seems better on WP:AIV. Funpika 22:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Review request

Can someone who knows the free and open source software industry take a look at the contributions of 74.116.118.230 (talk · contribs) since 21:35 UTC (the edit to Bill Kristol adminst four edits to Leonard H. Tower Jr.. He made a bunch of changes, many of which were reverted by User:Lentower. He then edited Leonard H. Tower Jr. (yes, the editor is the subject of the article) that violated BLP. I saw this in my watchlist, rolled it back, and looked at the rest of the IPs contribs from today, and rolled them back as they were changing references and links consistently in a way that changed the meaning. I cautioned on the IP talk page (though not about the BLP issue), and they went away for an hour. I came back, and saw the BLP violating edit to Leonard H. Tower Jr. had been repeated. So I've rolled that back again. But are the rest of the edits good or vandalism now? Beyond my expertise, so I request review (and a block if appropriate). Since I am a personal friend of Len's since well before Misplaced Pages existed, I shouldn't be the blocker even if the BLP violations alone merit one. GRBerry 22:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Realizing news sources would be unlikely to print the "K word" in reporting the incident, I did watch a video of the heckling, and I did not see or hear anything to corroborate the assertion that Kristol was called a "dirty kike", unless of course it had been muted out as profanity. However, he was clearly called a traitor and equated to Goebbels by various spectators. Good revert. —freak(talk) 01:54, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

The software-related edits are mostly POV-pushing, changing "free software" to "open source" and then in some instances revert warring over it. There is some inflammatory political stuff too, at Rupert Murdoch and Neoconservatism. Almost all the edits are small (1 or 2 word) injections of POV terminology rather than anything substantial; for the Rupert Murdoch article, a few-word-long unsourced allegation is added ( not supported by the cited article). Bad user and possible troll. 75.62.6.237 07:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing by BillDeanCarter and WhiteKongMan

Hi, I would like an administrator to look into possible violations of WP:CANVASS by BillDeanCarter and User:WhiteKongMan:WhiteKongMan, in the recent Bill Monahan Writing's Debate.

BillDeanCarter left the following message:

"(username), would you mind chiming in with a Keep again? This list unfortunately 9 days later has been renominated for deletion.-BillDeanCarter 22:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)"

He left this message on the talk pages of all users who had voted KEEP in the first debate:

The messages can be found at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7

Soon after, WhiteKongMan left the following message on the talk pages of user who voted to delete in the first debate:

"Hey, this stupid list is up for deletion again. As someone who voted on this issue previously, please feel free to express your opinion again. Also, billdeancarter has taken the liberty of notifying those who voted to keep in the first debate, so I am doing this to be fair. WhiteKongMan 13:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)"

He did this on the following pages; 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12.

I'm not sure if either necessarily violated the canvassing policy, but I think its important that Admins be made aware of it.

Thanks, Black Harry (T|C) 23:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You accuse others of canvassing... yet the top of your user page contains canvassing... Matthew 23:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe that canvassing is when one contacts others repeatedly. What Black Harry has on the top of his user page is not canvassing, but is still somewhat inappropriate—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Just removed it, thanks for reminding me Black Harry (T|C) 23:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Newbie biting by JSpung (talk · contribs)

I'm a bit concerned with JSpung's vandal fighting technique. He seems to be giving level 4im and uw-bv warnings for every instance of vandalism he reverts lately. I left him a message on his talk page about this, but it was removed with no comment. . He does not seem to make much distinction between clearly bad-faith vandalism and assumed-good-faith test edits. He reverted this (the anon's only 2 edits) on Declaration of independence and gave the user a uw-bv warning. While most of his warnings are fine, I'm concerned about his ability to WP:AGF and not WP:BITE. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 23:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that JSpung is a newbie himself, but a closer look at his contributions makes it bloody obvious: it's not his first rodeo. —freak(talk) 00:31, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

RodentofDeath revert warring in Angeles City

RodentofDeath (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) repeatedly deletes a well-annotated sentence on prostitution on Angeles City, typically with misleading edit summaries.

He's been warned about various incivility and 3RR-type behaviors in the recent past and has now advanced to disputing pretty much every source on the Talk page , then removing without consensus. Discussion has become lengthy, and I don't think further discussion will be productive as he removes the material regardless.

Other new, single-issue editors have joined in the deletion. Rodent came up clean in a recent SockPuppetry investigation, so I can't say with certainty these are him.

• 208.52.112.70 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 67.141.228.251 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Rodent has been on related campaigns of article reversion and harassment toward editors. The Angeles City article was protected for a while due to revert warring between RodentofDeath and Susanbryce (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) over references to slums, and references to Welfare organizations and human rights monitors. Rodent's general campaign has been to remove anything perceived as unflattering.

I've considered mediation but I have trouble believing any good will come of it. Ditto RfC. I'm not sure where to go with this. What is recommended? / edgarde 00:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I've been watching this particular case with some interest. From what I understand, the issue is essentially more of a POV dispute between two parties who, like it or not, have strong biases on the topic (take note of the lengthy discourse on Susanbryce's main user page). If you ask me, this isn't exactly a one-sided issue; both Rodentofdeath and Susanbryce have their fair share of conflicting issues and concerns that badly needs to be resolved. I'd also suggest that you leave a note at the Philippine regional noticeboard (talk page) so that other Filipino editors can also share their thoughts about this (some of the regulars are also admins, btw) and better explain why this could be a POV issue. And, yes, I think mediation is long overdue. --- Tito Pao 03:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know about Philippine regional noticeboard, and it sounds like a good resource. Thanks.

Susanbryce may have dropped out by now. If I get a reply to the mediation suggestion I left on User talk:Susanbryce, I'd be pleased to see a mediation begin.

What I'm seeing now is RodentofDeath is the last one standing and has taken an obstreperous WP:OWNership of the page. I got involved fairly late, and am mostly in it for this one edit. / edgarde 03:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a longer version of this incident in WP:TAMBAY. / edgarde 04:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with comments by edgarde, what's happened is that RodentofDeath has pushed out neutral editors such as Phaedrus86 and from there has attempted to own the article. Addhoc 08:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I started adding the content on welfare orgaizations in the Philippines and the Human Trafficking trade due to my experience in these aseas. Im not an educated person, and I made a lot of mistakes in what I posted. But with the help and guidence of more experienced Editors such as Phaedrus86 and Adhoc, the artilces have been well sourced, well written and a valuable addition. I have always abided by the advice of the more experienced Editors. I feel im being stalked by RodentofDeath who has attacked and deleted most everything I have posted. Even a simple post that mentions charities is attacked and deleted. I have requested more senior editors to engage and they have and I have abided by their guidence. I have dropped off because im tired of the constant abuse RodentofDeath aims at me. With that said, ive mostly made the additions to Misplaced Pages that I wanted to and am basically happy with the current articles as they are. All im seeking now is to maintain those articles. Kind Regards, Susan Bryce.Susanbryce 15:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Unblock of User:Heatedissuepuppet

I am concerned that User:Heatedissuepuppet has been unblocked by User:Viridae. The user was originally blocked for disruption by User:JzG after this original request , who said:

Your username and behaviour make it abundantly clear that this is a single-purpose account, almost certainly operated by an experienced editor, set up and operated for the sole purpose of disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. I have blocked this account. A sample review did not turn up a single productive edit, and your edit warring over the closure of a frivolous merger proposal was the final straw.

The user admits he 1. created the accout to deliberately target User:Sparkzilla and has used the account for extended editwarring over trivial issues, such as the length of time a merge discussion was open, and not allowing such discussions to be closed. He has created a "heated issue" where there was none and has not made a single constructive edit to the pages.

Details of the block are at User Talk:Heatedissuepuppet

Why, when there is a consensus to keep blocked (two admins and myself oppose this unblock) should a disruptive user such as this be unblocked? I would like more advice and opinions on this situation. Sparkzilla 00:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The first step is usually to ask the person in question themselves. Any reason why you haven't spoken to Viridae first? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 00:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Since when did merging a frigging article become so bureaucratic? If in doubt, an article remains un-merged. That having been said, if a user is being disruptive, block him for that (and of course, block him indefinitely IFF there is evidence his other account is still active and being advantageously used in the same foray). —freak(talk) 01:05, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Firstly I wasn't aware of the previous discussion. Secondly, per WP:SOCK a sockpuppet account may legitimately be used to deal with heated issues to stop them affecting the persons main account. Yes, there was edit warring, but the block reason is not in my opinion legitimate, because the sockpuppet was created under a legitimate policy quite obviously for the purposes of seperating normal issues from those which may erupt, as shown here. Yes, he has been edit warring (and issue I haven't really looked into very deeply, mainly because it wasn't denied) but as such he had both accounts blocked (block and autoblock) for 2-3 days - which is a fairly normal cool off time in the case of a first block for something like edit warring. I asked the user to email me with the name of his other account, and I have verified that the other account is not being used for the purpose of edit warring - or for that matter interaction on any of the articles/issues that the heatedissuepuppet account has been used for. Summing up I am now confidant that this is a legitimate use of a sockpuppet account (provided he doesn't continue to edit war with it) and time served is sufficient punishment/cooling off for the edit warring offence. Viridae 02:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Also see User talk:Heatedissuepuppet and User talk:JzG (where I notified Guy, the blocking admin, of my unblock). Viridae 02:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the account is clearly labeled for what it is, and since you've confirmed that he's not making abusive use of multiple accounts, and since his disclosure to you makes it significantly less tempting for him to do so in the future, I'd say there's nothing left to see here, folks. —freak(talk) 02:25, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

This is what it says at WP:SOCK#Keeping_heated_issues_in_one_small_area

Some editors use different accounts in talk pages to avoid conflicts about a particular area of interest turning into conflicts based upon user identity and personal attacks elsewhere, or to avoid harassment outside of Misplaced Pages. A person participating in a discussion of an article about abortion, for example, might not want to allow other participants an opportunity to extend that discussion or engage them in unrelated or philosophically motivated debate outside the context of that article.

In other words sockpuppets can be used, in some cases, to protect a user's identity. This is not the case here. This editor is not using the account to protect himself from attack, but using it to attack. Sparkzilla 03:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

When delving into a heated issue or one that may become heated it may be preferable to use an account such as this to stop disputes spilling into your other editing, and I believe this is what is happening here. It is unusual, sure but per that policy I believe it is allowed. Viridae 04:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think you have the right to unblock when two other admins and myself do not think the account should be unblocked. There is no consensus to unblock, so the account should stay blocked until such a consensus is reached. Sparkzilla 04:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Well for a start, I was (as previously stated) not aware of the other discussion, I merely answered an unblock request. Secondly the unblock occurred BEFORE this most recent discussion, in which several people have supported the user being blocked and at least one apart from myself have supported the unblocking. As such there is no way he could remain blocked untill consensus in this discussion was reached because this discussion didnt start untill after he was unblocked. Might I add that I unblocked him after careful consideration of WP:SOCK and the contributions from both accounts. Even if the consensus reached is for that account to be reblocked, as it was a good faith account - ie made in line with policy (or he believed so) autoblock should NOT be enabled, to allow him to edit from his other account in peace. Viridae 04:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no knowledge of the content dispute, but I do not think that this is the proper use of a second account. They are not intended to allow an user to edit war and keep there original account clean. To me this is abusing a sockpuppet account because it gives the users an advantage over other users that must settle their disputes using our dispute resolution process. I have commented about this to Heatedissuepuppet and asked him not to use the account. FloNight 03:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I second FloNight's opinion and actions. Which is Heatedissuepuppet's main user account, by the way? Cla68 04:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

He asked me not to reveal that, so I won't. You can either ask him yourself or ask for a checkuser - but given the nature of the account (ie an account to keep heated issues away from his main account) I am biding by his request for me to not reveal the other account name. Viridae 04:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What's your mother's maiden name? —freak(talk) 04:16, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

If you have a problem with using an account to keep heated issues away from the main account then you had better propose a change to policy on WP:VPP. If you don't like the use of an account like this in such a manner, I believe he has learnt his lesson - heated subjects occasionally bring editors into arguments which result in eit warring. They usually get blocked for a short amount of time to cool down - and since this is exactly what has happened in the long run (ie he was unblocked after 2-3 days) I believe that that time served is enough, provided he doesn't repeat the offence of edit warring. Viridae 04:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sure I am not alone in thinking that it is very poor form to unblock a user without looking at the original dispute and user history first. Problems with this user are outlined here: User Talk:Heatedissuepuppet#User_behaviour

If the user has been involved in any previous edit conflict with me, and is using the account to hide that fact in these disputes, then I do not think that is a fair use of this puppet. If he has not been involved in any edit conflict with me before then perhaps the use of a puppet is reasonable. Could you confirm this?

I can accept that his primary account be unblocked, but I would like to ask that this user does not use the puppet account to try to deliberately target and disrupt any page on which I have posted in future. Sparkzilla 04:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If by "target and disrupt" you mean "make any edits to", it would help to remember that you don't OWN your contributions, or any pages for that matter. That may need reminding, given the rather narrow scope of your edits.

As for confirming or denying that it is a user with whom you have previously interacted, a decision by Viridae (or a checkuser-er) to do that (and only that, for now) would probably benefit everyone involved. —freak(talk) 04:50, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

My history makes it clear that I am happy to work with any editor that does not make frivolous and timewasting edits with the intent to disrupt. I don't really know much about the checkuser process -- can you help? Sparkzilla 04:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. On the other hand, it could just as easily get shot down as fishing expedition. —freak(talk) 05:01, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

I think it is fair enough to say that if the user has already been in conflict with me that he has no need to use such a puppet. Perhaps Viridae could enlighten us? Note, I am not interested in finding out the user's main account. Sparkzilla 05:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed the contributions of the main account back to july last year and see no evidence of interaction/dispute. Viridae 05:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

In perusing his contributions, forgive me if I've overlooked an egregious violation, but I did not see where he has attacked anyone. I don't know his other identity, obviously, but it could be that account was registered under his real name, or could easily be traced to his real identity by anyone wishing to do so. As far as I can tell, nobody would have pegged him as an "alternate account" if he didn't volunteer that fact himself, specifically by choosing a name containing the word "puppet" (which, in itself, would severely limit the owner's temptation to use it for vote-stacking or tag team reversions, I would think!). If he had been doing anything untoward, I doubt he would have revealed himself to Viridae. —freak(talk) 04:16, May. 17, 2007 (UTC)

I second freak's comment - I can't find any evidence of a so-called attack. In fact user Heatedissuepuppet has been a model of civility, even during edits in which the same courtesy was not reciprocated. David Lyons 06:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• A single-purpose account registered solely in order to argue on contentious articles, in fact mainly to pursue an agenda against a single publication and a single editor (Sparkzilla). I don't see that as one of the permitted uses of puppet accounts myself. It's not about containig contributions to a contentious area, it's about limiting the damage an edit war and transparent vendetta would do to his main account. Would have been nice to be consulted in some respect before my block was undone, too. Do we really need single purpose accounts that exist solely to pursue an agenda? Guy (Help!) 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

"To pursue an agenda"... I have a perfectly good reason for that "agenda". Most people have a reason for getting involved in a specific article/conflict - may it be to counter off-site canvassing which is damaging an article, or the obvious bias of another editor - "to pursue an agenda" is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as there are good reasons for that agenda to be pursued. A legitimate use of a "heated issue puppet" will most likely end up being a SPA, with ONE agenda - but how is that not in accordance with the policy on the matter?

I have evidence that I think will satisfy most that Sparkzilla IS Mark Devlin (the owner of disputed company/magazine). My purpose has only been to make sure that Misplaced Pages is not used as a vehicle for promotion for his company/magazine, which it currently is, I'm afraid to say. As Viridae can vouch for, I have not previously been involved in any conflict with Sparkzilla, so calling it a "vendetta" is obviously untrue. I have only strived for the upholding of Misplaced Pages rules and for that purpose, I created an alternative account. I'm certain most will agree with me when I've posted about this problem at the WP:CoI noticeboard, and I'm also certain nobody will refer to any of my edits as disruptive. I do however understand that those who haven't looked into the conflict and just hear these allegations of "edit warring" might doubt my motives. That said, I'd also like to point out that any edit-warring from my side has been extremely small-scale and limited, and has practically always ended with me being reverted by sparkzilla one time too much, resulting in me letting it be. I've kept well within the boundaries of what's allowed on Misplaced Pages, and I've avoided resorting to any incivility, which David Lyons and others can vouch for (unfortunately, the same is not true of Sparkzilla, see my talk page, below the unblock request, for links). I will try and post on CoI today, but before that, I am prepared to share my evidence with anybody interested through e-mail.Heatedissuepuppet 08:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Btw, I'm not about to revert any of Sparkzilla's edits to the disputed articles (something I haven't done since 3 May, if I'm not mistaken - those who accuse me of "abusing" this account, please look into mine as well as Sparkzilla's edit histories), so don't worry, I'm not about to engage in any edit wars of any kind. I'm just gonna re-post my comments on the Nick Baker RfD (removed from there by Sparkzilla, without any support in actual policies/guidelines), and post a CoI later on today. Heatedissuepuppet 09:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It is pretty clear from the above statement that this editor is using his SPA as a way to to attack me. If he was really interested in improving articles he would find proper sources and not indulging in editwarring, trivial reverts and posting of poorly-sourced negative information. The addition of this threatened CoI proves that the editor is only interested in further harassment. I ask for the block to be reinstated. Sparkzilla 09:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If you are innocent of CoI, you don't have anything to worry about. If you indeed are innocent, I don't see why it would be harassment to have it investigated at the CoI noticeboard. Heatedissuepuppet 09:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Using CoI as a way to influence content disputes is not allowed. CoI clearly states "attack the article, not the editor". You simply did not have good enough sources for inclusion. It is incredible that you are being allowed to continue your harassment, when you have made no positive contributions with this account at all. Sparkzilla 09:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to accuse me of "harassment", please provide "diff links" sustaining these allegations. Heatedissuepuppet 09:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You are sock puppet with the single purpose of demonstrating that Sparkzilla has an undeclared conflict of interest. Could I politely suggest you present your evidence on the COI noticeboard instead of continuing this debate. Addhoc 09:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, what kind of a comment is that? That's exactly what I've suggested I will do, but I do not see why I shouldn't have the right to respond to unsustained accusations by Sparkzilla?Heatedissuepuppet 09:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record, this is not a "sock puppet account with the single purpose of demonstrating Sparkzilla has an undeclared CoI", it's a sock puppet account with the single purpose of making sure Misplaced Pages isn't used as a vehicle for promotion. I did not originally strive to "demonstrate" that Sparkzilla had a CoI (even though I did ask him once, politely, if he were Mark Devlin or a close associate of his), but rather to deal with the problematic nature of the Metropolis/Crisscross articles. The way things have escalated (esp my indef block), I doubt that there's anything I can do about the situation but go to CoI. That's why my "single purpose" now is to demonstrate Sparkzilla's undeclared CoI. Heatedissuepuppet 10:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Summary of your actions so far: User_talk:Heatedissuepuppet#User_behaviour. I will not respond further to you here. As they say, don't feed the trolls. Sparkzilla 09:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no involvement or interest in the dispute between Sparkzilla and Heatedissuepuppet. But I do believe that the use to which the Heatedissuepuppet identity has been put is clearly legitimate and within policy. In fact, it is explicitly within policy. I also find it somewhat disingenuous that Sparkzilla writes with such outrage about being attacked, given how hard he is working to have the block reimposed. It is clear to me that the attacking in this situation is at the very least mutual. FNMF 11:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The policy does not give an user the right to a second account to edit war with another user and keep their main account clean. That is exactly what is happening here. FloNight 11:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

You do not know the full extent of my reasoning behind the decision to use an alternative account, so I think the categorization you just made is really unfair. If you saw my main account, you'd see I'm not afraid to "dirty" my talkpage with long-winded protests from disruptive users. One thing I am prepared to divulge about my reasoning, is that it is FRIGHTENINGLY easy to find out my real name if you know my main account. I've recently had problems because of this, but it is related to an incident I cannot describe further as it would reveal too much about my identity.

Finally, I think it's worth mentioning that I've had an account on Misplaced Pages for almost 2 years and this is the one and only time I've decided to use an alt. Heatedissuepuppet 11:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

First, if your real name is trivially identifiable and you'd rather it were not, then consider changing WP:RENAME or dropping it altogether. Second, if you want to use an alt in certain subject areas it's probably best if you don't start by being gratuitously contentious and pursuing a battle with another editor, because as FloNight (an arbitrator, in case you hadn't spotted) notes above, there is no right to use multiple accounts, and they are only permitted (in the sense of not being blocked on sight) where their use is not disruptive; avoiding scrutiny seems to be your main aim here and that is not listed in the permitted uses, nor is wikilawyering about the permitted uses a good way forward. This use has been seen by several people ad disruptive. It is expected that any user will have a balance of edits, not just pursuing an agenda. Accounts which do nothing but pursue an agenda tend to get kicked off, sooner or later, whether they are alternate or sole accounts. Guy (Help!) 12:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Note the sad irony of an editor who doesn't want his identity revealed, desperately trying to reveal that of another editor. BTW, what is Misplaced Pages policy regarding HIP's attempts to expose a user's identity? Sparkzilla

I'll note that I also see use of a secondary account for areas known to be in dispute to be explicitly authorized by Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Legitimate uses of multiple accounts, provided the primary account does not edit in those areas. Viridae's actions of confirming the primary account to not be active in the same area(s) is correct action. So sockpuppetry is not a basis for a block here anymore. Edit warring itself is a separate problem, and I think (from comments here) that both Sparkzilla and Heateddissuepuppet are engaging in this type of problematic behavior, and I think either or both of them could end up with sanctions if they don't start working better together. GRBerry 13:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I just want to inject a little common sense here. Can we stop focussing on the legitimate vs. illegitimate use of an alternate account here? It seems like if this account is being disruptive, it's an illegitimate use and it should be blocked indefinitely. If the account is not being disruptive, then it seems like the use must be legitimate per the WP:SOCK policy. Yet, there has been very little examination here of whether Heatedissuepuppet's behavior is disruptive, or merely involved in a controversial issue. Can we focus on that a bit more? Mangojuice 14:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

User Batman2005 Ad hominem attacks and uncivil behavor

In the discussion page for "Freddy Adu" Batman2005 started off with Ad hominem attacks, saying that I would be uncivil(which was baseless) To the contrary he had multiple posts which consisted purely of trying to create arguments where there were none, posts that were purely ad-hominem attacks, and posts that contained ad-hominem attacks.

Looking through his history, I see I'm not the first to have this problem with him. Drsmoo 05:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, Drsmoo pushed his pov upon the page in question on several occasions. Including a failed attempt to label me and another user sockpuppets of each other. Only when presented with an overwhelming majority against him did he relent on his position, then he attempted (against wikipedia policy) to delete portions of the talk page which would skew the discussion into his favor. Repeatedly this was reverted and repeatedly he continued to do so. As well, Drsmoo removed on several occasions (against wikipedia policy) talk page discussions on his user talk page. Lets also take a look at Drsmoo, who accuses me of ad-hominem attacks, clearly attacking me .

Looking through his edit history, I see that this is not the first time he's pushed pov and acted against policy by removing information. I find overwhelming irony in the uncivil calling others uncivl.

As of now, I'm going to consider my affiliation with Drsmoo over, yet will continue to revert pov edits, even if they be by him. Batman2005 05:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Note, Drsmoo violated 3RR on Freddy Adu on the 14th. 1 2 3 4 --Selket 05:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that, yet chose to start a talk page discussion about the content, rather than reporting the violation. Batman2005 05:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Oy vey, if anyone actually looks at the discussion they'll see that I agreed it was POV from the start. I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what this guy is getting at. There was absolutely no argument between him and me in that regard. However he decided there was and insulted me as if it were a fight. I welcome admins to look through my history and see that I have never acted uncivil. If you look through Batman2005s history(for example in the Freddy Adu discussion) you will see that he was the only one resorting to Ad-Hominem attacks. Drsmoo 05:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Erroneous. Batman2005 05:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you guys have any real problem. I don't see anything really incivil going on there, and it looks like you've agreed about what needs to be done. Bringing it here is just adding to the problem. I think the best idea is just to walk away. --Haemo 05:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Note my above post where I said that I was going to consider the situation over, yet he then chose to insult me on the talk page. Just another in a long line of policy violations by Drsmoo. Batman2005 05:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This is not exactly "letting it go". --Haemo 05:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Haemo, it'd be better to let it go. But I also think it's important to let other editors know that he has a history of Ad-hominem attacks

The event was insigated by Batman2005 when he posted on my discussion board that "I don't expect you to be able to maintain a civil or constructive discussion on the issue, but as a courtesy...I wanted to mention that such a discussion has been started."

His first message on the board then included "..yet if those were added Drsmoo would delete them immediately and claim I was pushing my pov. I have pushed NO pov in my edits...I have merely acted to eliminate the pov from the existing article. I highly doubt that Drsmoo will engage in any legitimate or constructive discussion here, so perhaps others will have opinions as we work towards a consensus and not just Drsmoo's way or the highway." which was wrong as I was pushing more towards removing POV than anyone else, he continued with comments such as...

"But, you're probably totally unwilling to look at anything Adu related objectively" "And no, I didn't insult you...apparently I was exactly right. You've proven yourself both unable to hold a civil discussion and/or accept anothers viewpoint. There is overwhelming support here for my viewpoint that saying that he is widely regarded as anything is pov. Why can't you just admit you were wrong and get over yourself?" "Shouldn't you be off pushing your pov on other pages and being proven wrong over and over again like you were here?"

"I fail to see Drsmoo, perhaps you can let me borrow the rose-colored glasses you wear."

There was absolutely no reason other than blatant and causeless hostility to be insulting.

That's my last post on the matter, just wanted to let other editors know. Drsmoo 05:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

And my last post will be to let the same editors know of the blatant pov pushing, callous disregard for wikipedia policy and hypocritical ways of Drsmoo. Batman2005 06:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No offence, but this doesn't really seem to be ANI material. Can you two agree to stop this? Flyguy649_contribs 06:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Plagiarism of Misplaced Pages?

I found a site that plagerized directly from wikipedias content and did not give credit. they make people pay to be members also. http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/charis-visionsof-mary.html They are way of life ministries a baptist org.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.48.243.177 (talk • contribs) 05:45, May 17, 2007 (UTC)

You should mention this at the talk page of Misplaced Pages:Mirrors and forks, but it's not really an admin issue. ugen64 07:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it is OK under GDFL . --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 07:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't look that way to me. GFDL requires crediting the original source and also distributing the copied version under the GFDL. That site is not crediting Misplaced Pages and is trying to impose a different set of conditions. 75.62.6.237 08:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I would take this over to Misplaced Pages:Mirrors and forks, but I can't see which content is being taken from Misplaced Pages, and which Misplaced Pages page it's being taken from. ··coelacan 08:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio?

Wasn't sure if this is a copyvio or not. The picture is found on a

It's ok, on both links it says the image is Public Domain. Anynobody 09:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Questionable page protection?

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/List of people by name was, admittedly, a contentious and confusing nomination, not the least of which was its process-questionable dual-nomination in both MFD and AFD. However, we've certainly had more problematic XFDs in the past; Esperanza comes immediately to mind.

Without passing judgment on whether or not consensus could have been established in either direction, I question the way the discussion was concluded. Discussion was "suspended", and the MFD page protected, by admin Jerzy. However, Jerzy was not an "uninvolved administrator". He had previously commented in the discussion, favoring the retention of the material. Additionally, his justification for the suspension seems somewhat lacking, stating that it "involves procedural irregularities too extensive to either tolerate in light of their potential for functioning as de facto precedents, or enumerate clearly in the time i have left to edit in the next 24 hours or so." Although he has suggested that other participants "Please keep the discussion of these measures on Misplaced Pages talk:Miscellany for deletion/List of people by name", he has not done so himself (he is the only contributor to that page as of the linked version).

I don't know that I expected anything at all from this A/MFD, but I can't say I expected it to end this way, especially with such vage explanation. Was this a proper use of administrative tools? And, either way, what course of action should be undertaken to allow examination of the arguments for and against deleting this material?

Regards, Serpent's Choice 09:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have over-ruled the suspension and unprotected the page. See my enclosed comment for detail. Thanks. El_C 10:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The Game (game) (again)

Please see Misplaced Pages: How to play The Game (game) and get your article back - it appears to have been created as a WP:POINT, and I also notice that the creator is threatening to try and take this to arbitration.

Shouldn't this be nuked rather than taken to miscellany for deletion?? --SunStar Net 10:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Been deleted by JzG. Trebor 11:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW, gentlemen, I deleted The Game (game) meme a while back as trolling along the same lines, seems to be a similar sort of scenario. Moreschi 11:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• SunStar Net suggested a page Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Perennial requests - that seemed a very good idea to me so I was bold. Guy (Help!) 11:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

User:S.jensen

Can somebody with enough fuel in their flamethrowers please help to deal with the walled garden of copyviovanicrankspamcruft that is apparently the complete oeuvre of S.jensen (talk · contribs), regarding one Martinus Thomsen and his numerous books on mysticism? Please see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Third Testament for precedent. I haven't yet worked out just how much of it can be speedied. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• I don't see anything eligible for speedy deletion, but I did isuse a delete all opinion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Spiritual science by Martinus which you opened. I think the 5 articles in the AFD nom plus the 14 redirects are all the non-deleted pages to which the user has contributed. GRBerry 14:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfounded accusations

Addhoc Have been accusing his fellow editors of supporting/condoning pedophilia. These accusations are unfounded and a clear violation of policy. I have tried to contact him about it: But he refused to remove his accusation. I hope some action is taken against this behavior. Thanks.

His accusations:

V.☢.B 12:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I find this quite concerning. Unless Addhoc can show actual evidence of this extraordinary claim, that the editors he disagrees with support/condone pedophilia, then this is not just a personal attack but an open-and-shut WP:BLP violation. -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've notified Addhoc (talk · contribs) that this discussion is taking place. MastCell 15:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks MastCell. My original phrasing was 'support', which I changed to 'condone'. I'll rephrase to 'defend' or similar if this is considered a problem. Addhoc 16:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It is a major problem to accuse other editors of supporting/condoning/defending pedophilia, remove any such accusations. If you don't then I strongly urge that a administrator does and block the user at the same time. It will not lead to anything good if such behavior is accepted to roam free. Thanks. V.☢.B 17:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Looking at Jim Burton's user page, I would suggest that he condones or defends pedophilia. His posts to Jimbo's talk page appear to support this view. Possibly, I should rephrase slightly, however I don't think blanking this entire section of an open RfC would be a good idea. Addhoc 17:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Looking at that user page I don't think drawing the conclusion that he condones or defends paedophilia is exactly unfounded, it may not be proven, it may not be wise, but there is certainly some suggestive material there. --Coroebus 17:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Since it is also directed against me I find it very disturbing and very wrong. I don't see how any such accusation can cause anything but problems. I want the accusation to be removed, the other text can remain ofcourse. V.☢.B 17:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Five other editors supported Addhoc's original statement which I think sums up the situation very well. Voice of Britain is under his own Rfc ]. Lots of SPAS's are strongly pushing a pro paedophile view ont he relevant articles as can be seen by their edits so I think Addhoc's comments should be allowed to stand and any apparently pro paedophile SPA editors should be closely watched, SqueakBox 17:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

False accusations should be removed, there is nothing to discuss unless someone has clear evidence that the accusations are true. V.☢.B 17:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a comment from one of the accused users on a talk page in which he states that 50% of victims of child sexual abuse have positive or neutral responses to the abuse . --Dcooper 18:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

False accusations should indeed be removed, and I dont think that applies here, Dcooper's is one of a number of similar edits, SqueakBox 18:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

User 210.56.112.80 Vandalism

Whilst on my WP travels I have discovered that user 210.56.112.80 is persistently vandalising the Dera Sacha Sauda article. The IP address may need to be monitored. Jamie 13:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This way, please! --ElKevbo 14:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Block request...

I would like to request a block on IP - 148.168.40.4. It is a shared IP but is consistently making unneccessary edits and personal attacks. I apologize if this the wrong place for this. Thanks for any help. Strunke 14:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This would be the more appropriate place to report this. You'd probably get a quicker response, too. --ElKevbo 14:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much....Strunke 16:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

using Misplaced Pages as an advertising agency

I think there could be a problem with advertising on Misplaced Pages. I noticed that a user MikeGogulski is using his userpage as a vehicle for advertising. This account is only a few weeks old. On his first day he started developing his user page with an army of userboxes. . These userboxes contain his various skills and services and his personal website. He explained his userpage as follows

"...if you click one of those userbox soldiers on my talk page, a single click more will bring you to a site where I maintain a paid account and profile containing a vast array if personal and commercial information about myself, including a copy of my CV." diff

By the user's own admission his goal is to spread commercial information about himself, and gain free advertising by maintaining this account and userpage. The profile he wanted to advertise and his personal webpage . These contain statements like "I can accept payments in USD, EUR and SKK via bank transfer to US or Slovak banks, PayPal, Moneybookers and e-gold." and similar. While this may not be a major case, if this type of behaviour goes unchecked Misplaced Pages will be flooded with personal userpages advertising every type of service imaginable not just translation. I know that wikipedia has a tough stance against advertising by companies but I'm not sure about individuals offering services, so I'm bringing this to the attention of administrators requiring some type of action to be taken.

This type of commercial exploitation of wikipedia is despicable in my opinion, as wikipedia is not an advertising agency for anyone to gain higher rank on google search. It seems that he is not here to write an encylopedia but for other reasons. It seems he is pretty successful already in advertising his talents and services, already rank 4th on google with a few weeks old account. Olivierdb 14:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• At a minimum, I think you should give MikeGogulski the courtesy of letting him know you're discussing his userpage here. That would give him the opportunity to respond. --ElKevbo 15:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Since Olivierdb did not notify MikeGogulski of this conversation, I did. --ElKevbo 15:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Considering the fact that I can't find evidence of these links to his pages, I'm a bit confused about what action should be taken. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The link is in the "this user has a website" userbox Olivierdb 15:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
    • (e/c) While the talk page diff might show some uncivility (I would need to read the whole conversation first, to see the context) I would hardly call a "This user has a website" userbox advertising. He seems to be a decent contributor, not what is usually seen by advertisers. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 15:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • (After edit conflict) Indeed. Unless I've missed something, MikeGogulski has done nothing wrong. In fact, his user page is pretty toned-down and nondescript as far as these things go. There's nothing wrong with including links to one's own personal sites on one's user page. Mike has plenty of mainspace edits and it doesn't at all seem like his intent on Misplaced Pages is merely to promote himself. His "admission of commercial intent" that you linked looks like a defense against your accusation of sockpuppetry, not him announcing his plans to advertise himself on Misplaced Pages. You definitely should have raised your concerns with Mike before reporting this on the noticeboard, your accusations seem pretty groundless. -- mattb 15:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
    • My main concern is not his userboxes, but the fact he uses his whole account (all his contributions) to advertise his real name, to gain hits from google to his service(translation). If this pratice spreads who out of all Jack Smiths et cetera gets to have the name and the userpage as advertising space? I titled this thread the way I did because also wanted to ask about the general issue of advertising on userpages and account names if it is permissible. My post wasn't about this one user but the issue in general. Olivierdb 15:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, it's a pretty common practice (and it used to be the standard) to use your real name for your Wiki-Username (from Misplaced Pages:Username#Choosing_a_username: "The choice of username might be based on your real name or a familiar Internet nickname..."). Furthermore, all external links not within the "article" namespace are done with the nofollow tag (see ), so he won't actually gain much PageRank from that listing. I don't think there's a problem here. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• Can you please specifically link to where this editor has explicitly said that "his goal is to spread commercial information about himself, and gain free advertising by maintaining this account and userpage." I am not seeing that it in the information you have provided. --ElKevbo 15:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• His user page seems unobjectionable to me. -- DS1953 15:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
• I think that at this point it is worth looking at the contributions of Olivierdb (talk · contribs) instead, in particular this edit. This noteboard section appears to be a bogus charge of advertising aimed at an editor who questioned whether Olivierdb was a single-purpose account created in order to disrupt discussion, by re-making controversial edits that were currently the subject of a lengthy talk page discussion (see Talk:Bratislava#Names). That this is the only editor in that discussion to have strayed from discussing the article onto the subject of other editors' names and user pages indicates that the sole purpose here is to disrupt, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. I suggest that we give our attentions to other matters. Uncle G 16:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Defendant responds Thank you, ElKevbo, for notifying me of the accusation. Obviously my own words on the subject will speak less loudly than my actions, but I will state unequivocally that my work on Misplaced Pages is based on a genuine desire to improve, expand, and add articles in areas of interest to me, and where I feel that I can make valuable contributions to the project. The notion that I suddenly appeared with an "army of userboxes", and that this should somehow be taken as evidence of my ill intent, befuddles me. I've used wiki software in several professional engagements in the past, and was a long-time user of Misplaced Pages prior to starting my contributions here. This included using wikicode I found implemented here on internal company projects. I based my own userbox population primarily on User:MarkBA's user page, and it was MarkBA's contributions which formed a big part of my inspiration to become a registered editor. I choose to edit under my real name for purposes of open and honest attribution. That this has a knock-on effect of potentially increasing my market exposure as a translator is an inevitable consequence, not dependent on me placing a (permitted, small) link to my website on my user page. In agreement with mattb's position above, my motivation to point out my website link as part of the sockpuppetry argument was to provide evidence that my Misplaced Pages identity is identical with my real identity, with the thought it mind that it would be pretty ridiculous for some pseudonymous user to create a sockpuppet in his real name. I'm treating this as controversy for the sake of controversy and nothing more. By the way, User:Olivierdb, thank you for telling us that you're Hungarian by means of the Google link you pasted above; we'll take that into account in considering any apparently anti-Slovak POV in your edits. To your response that "My post wasn't about this one user but the issue in general", well, LOL. It seems to me you're here to start (or perhaps continue) a war, and to do so by sounding reasonable. MikeGogulski 16:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Olivierdb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is obviously a sockpuppet account and no newbie. He/she knows WP:ANI and his/her only edits have been disruptive reverts, not real contributions. As Mike pointed out above, the google links posted by Olivierdb suggest he/she is from Hungary. Olivierdb's POV is to change the names of Slovak cities into a non-Slovak version. He/she abuses WP:ANI to accuse opponents in a POV dispute. I might be wrong, but all three things also characterize the only known Hungarian sockpuppetmaster, banned VinceB (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Olivierdb account was founded just three days after VinceB's last attempt to evade his ban using sockpuppets was stopped by administrators. It may be all a coincidence and Olivierdb may be a sockpuppet of someone else. But even in that case, it seems to be a "bad hand" account, forbidden by WP:SOCK. Tankred 17:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I resent the gross incivility and personal attacks against me above also violating WP:AGF. I find the comment regarding my alleged ethnicity "take that into account in considering any apparently anti-Slovak POV" bizarre to say the least. The same can be said about the "here to start a war" part. MikeGogulski also solicited comment on the talk page of Bratislava urging other editors to defend him, the result of this is Tankred's comment above who is an active editor of Bratislava. I also think the actual advertising taking place is undeniable, indeed he admits it again now a second time above "That this has a knock-on effect of potentially increasing my market exposure as a translator is an inevitable consequence". This time he calls the advertising effect inevitable. The fact that his very first action as a wikipedia editor ever was to construct those userboxes suggests otherwise. I think advertising is a serious issue on wikipedia and when not done by companies but individuals is not taken seriously enough. With that said I accept if the consensus is that nothing really happened here, but I ask others to refrain from off topic personal attacks against me, especially if those were solicited by MikeGogulski. Olivierdb 17:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalizing at Afro

User:71.112.142.5, who has vandalized the Afro page as User:71.112.7.212 and User: 71.112.6.35 is once again vandalizing. This user has been the subject of a RfC, has been blocked several times, and now is using multiple IPs. They engage in disruptive editing and WP:Game the rules so they just slightly dance inside the system. They are continually reverted. A review of their most egregious behavior is found at User:71.112.7.212, but now that they are slipping in and out of IPs, they try to only troll selectively. I'd like to ask for the above IPs to be blocked from Afro or, at the very least, have some admins take note of their behavior and engage them. --David Shankbone 15:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The page has been temporarily protected. The IPs you cite are Verizon DSL addresses. If we block his address today, it is very likely that he can force Verizon to assign him a different IP tomorrow by simply unplugging his DSL modem for a few minutes. The best answer is often to simply revert and ignore, report the IP addresses at intervention against vandalism or ask for page protection at requests for page protection. Thatcher131 16:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Comtheo sockpuppets and John Moyer article recreations.

Hello. 2 days ago, there was an incident with a rather intrusive guy who replaced an article with his own multiple times. It was resolved for the moment, and is archived here. After that, the user created many sockpuppets and article about his hero with them, resulting in the users being blocked and the article being deleted and ultimately protected from re-creation. It went on and on, as administrators were able to delete the articles / block the users when they saw the article as candidate for speedy deletion. Today however, Comtheo is very fast. He removes the speedy template within a very short time period after they are set-up, so i decided to come here again. The current article is John Moyer: comedian by the current puppet ComtheoJR (talk · contribs). Some more info on recent articles and puppets is in the speedy deletion message, which i'll just re-post here:

A7 - Multiple re-creation from John Moyer (comedian), John E. Moyer, John Moyer (writer, comedian), John Moyer (stand up comic) and John Moyer (stand up comedian). (All of that only after vandalizing John Moyer many times over a 2 day period). Author of this article is one of many many sockpuppets of User:Comtheo (here are some of them: User:Comdytheorem, User:JzyDy, User:1277MM, User:ChrisPUT, User:ComedytheoremJR, User:comedytheorem, User:ComtheoJR) - Please delete & protect, and block puppet.

Is there a more permanent way of drawing him off, instead of just deleting the article and blocking the user, forcing him to just register a new account and creating a new article with a slightly different name? ~ | twsx | _cont | 16:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• Nobody's forcing him to keep re-creating his vanity article. In fact, by now, it seems that he is wilfully ignorant rather than just clueless. It cannot posisbly have escaped his notice that we do not want his vanity spam, but when was the last time a Mormon took no for an answer? Guy (Help!) 17:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey

Formerly banned, but reinstated by Jimbo, user User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey is carrying on in a questionable manner, edit-warring on Cherokee (which has required protection of that article), making what borders on legal threats (based on totally preposterous legal theories of his to the effect that Indian tribes can override the First Amendment and ban discussion about them if it goes in directions of which they disapprove), engaging in WP:POINT behavior (creating a category "Massacres by Mormons" with only one article in it because he dislikes a similar category regarding massacres by American Indians), accusing users critical of him of being sockpuppets, and so on. *Dan T.* 17:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

• I left a note. He needs to take a chill pill or he's going to end up blocked again. However, Dan, please resist any temptation to bait him. Guy (Help!) 18:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I interacted with this fellow a while back at Daniel Brandt. Neither of us had a great time, though in my opinion the exercise was largely memorable for this edit. I've not seen anything quite like it, either before or since. Moreschi 18:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for recognizing this. Not all the trolls are from SCOX. I'll refrain from feeding any of them.  :-)Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 18:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Willful or clueless? I vote 2. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Clueless. Someone placed a {{who}} and I thought it meant for someone to say who in the community said it, so I put it in. I assumed if it was wrong, someone would format, correct, or remove it. I'm glad everyone finds it so entertaining. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 18:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, if you're just not quite getting it, allow me to provide you some good, but unsolicited advice. You're not doing yourself any favors by threatening people, mentioning laws, or trying to muscle changes in past anyone. Anyone who spends 10 seconds trying to figure out if you're gonna be able to muscle changes past them is going to realize quite quickly that just a small, well placed, well written whine about you is going to send you back into indef blocked. You, not them, need to tread on eggshells. You're incredibly lucky that this particular whine isn't perfectly written. If the first commenter had stated "Merkey is back to his old gig - threatening wikipedians with lawsuits (diff), editing disruptively (diff), and sticking his nose where it don't belong (diff). Why did we unblock him, exactly? Were we short on POV pushers who like to threaten people?" then I suspect we'd be discussing this from the other side of your block log. I think you're just a tech guy who can't interact with people. You're going to have to learn if you want articles to read how you want them to read. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

JB196 sock

Slazengerbin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Please block, thanks. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Non morir, Seneca...nope, too late. Whacked. Moreschi 18:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

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