Talk:Factory farming: Difference between revisions

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	:::No matter what the reasons, it was appropriate for Localzuk to seek some consensus before making such a radical change to this highly contentious talk page. This was not an emergency and could have waited a day or so. I'm not dwelling in the past, just trying to point out that your methods as of today are not working to build any kind of trust. ] 20:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)		:::No matter what the reasons, it was appropriate for Localzuk to seek some consensus before making such a radical change to this highly contentious talk page. This was not an emergency and could have waited a day or so. I'm not dwelling in the past, just trying to point out that your methods as of today are not working to build any kind of trust. ] 20:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

			::::My strategy is to keep us moving forward, not looking back, and to encourage everyone to compromise, because the arguments of the last few days have been very damaging, very toxic. I hope you'll help me with it and assume good faith. ] <sup><font color="Purple">]</font></sup> 20:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:18, 24 May 2007

Talk:Factory farming/Archive 1
Talk:Factory farming/Archive 2, April 4 — May 24, 2007: dispute about title(s) and number of articles.

Page title

I suggest that people write here what they think the title(s) should be, and why, preferably using sources to back up the argument. Please write no more than one short paragraph each, preferably no more than 150 words. No threaded discussion; just let each person have their say, because we may agree more than we realize.

SlimVirgin

My preference is for us to have one article, which should include crops and animals. I don't mind what the title is: factory farming, intensive farming, industrial agriculture, or intensive agriculture, because mainstream sources use these terms interchangeably (e.g. the BBC using the terms "factory farms," "factory farming," "intensive agriculture," and "intensive farming" in one article to refer to the same phenomenon). If others want more than one article, I'm willing to see two articles: one about crops, one about animals. I'd prefer the animal one to be called "factory farming" because it’s commonly used (e.g. Washington Post, CNN, BBC, CBC. As a compromise, I'd be willing to see Intensive farming (animals) and Intensive farming (crops). I'd be unwilling to see three articles (Factory farming, Intensive farming, and Industrial agriculture), unless someone can show me mainstream reliable sources who use the terms differently and who make clear what the difference is; so far, no one has done that. Misplaced Pages must not create distinctions that do not exist for reliable sources. SlimVirgin 20:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Crum375

I agree with SlimVirgin above. My main concern is that this topic may degenerate into POV forks, and the best way to avoid that is keep it all in one article. If that is impractical, then I could live with one for animals and one for crops, at most. I think a single combined article would still be the most informative and efficient, since many of the issues and controversies are the same or similar. Crum375 21:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Coroebus

Sorry, I'm very busy at the moment so I won't be able to engage in this issue in much detail. In brief, I think that intensive farming is different from industrial agriculture because there are non-industrial agricultural methods that are still intensive, particularly historically (thinking enclosure, that sort of thing). I would be inclined towards a single article called industrial agriculture covering crops and animals but I think that practically speaking this might be unwise as I think there will be overemphasis and conflict over the animal aspect and associated animal rights issues. Therefore I would favour a short article on intensive agriculture with a very short summary section on industrial agriculture that points you to the industrial agriculture page, which in turn has a short summary section on factory farming which is also an article that expands on the confined animal rearing aspect, and spells out in the intro that factory farming is here taken to mean confined animal rearing but that it can also be used to mean industrial agriculture (with, obviously, a wikilink). --Coroebus 21:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Haber

Single article is fine. Ideally everything will be lumped under Intensive agriculture, which is a very neutral term and used by the USDA and BBC. Intensive farming would also be acceptable and is neutral, but sounds less encyclopedic to me (matter of taste, and I see the two terms as nearly equivalent.) Also supported by USDA. Industrial agriculture shows up in a negative context,, and should be avoided. Factory farming is a propaganda term that evokes images of sows in gestation crates. Although activist sites and some media outlets use this term, Misplaced Pages should not buy into their agenda. I could also see possibly two articles: Intensive ag and Industrial ag, but at present I don't see that there is enough material and would rather lump everything under Intensive for the time being. Haber 23:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC) I think it goes without saying that I think that the assertion Intensive ag = Industrial ag = Factory farming is false, but I'll say it again just to avoid any confusion. Haber 12:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

FNMF

Concur with Corobeus's conclusion: "a short article on intensive agriculture with a very short summary section on industrial agriculture that points you to the industrial agriculture page, which in turn has a short summary section on factory farming which is also an article that expands on the confined animal rearing aspect, and spells out in the intro that factory farming is here taken to mean confined animal rearing but that it can also be used to mean industrial agriculture (with, obviously, a wikilink)." FNMF 23:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it seems to me that if an editor creates an article (e.g. industrial agriculture), it is illegitimate for another editor to simply change it to a redirect (e.g., to factory farming). Changing the article to a redirect is a de facto form of deletion, and thus an attempt to bypass AfD. If somebody creates an article, then it can be contested by other editors who consider it engages in original research, but this must be done through process. One cannot "in advance" decide that an article is OR and therefore summarily change it to a redirect. I have raised this point before, with no response. Denying the right of other editors to create articles without a legitimate justification seems like an attempt to unfairly control the process. FNMF 06:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Localzuk

Agree with SV and Crum, preferably one article (not too bothered about the title, as all of them would redirect here) or two (one focusing on crops and one on animals, with the 3 titles pointing to a dab page or similar). I wouldn't want 3 articles as this would lead to POV forks and create distinctions where there are grey areas.-Localzuk 09:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

NathanLee

Just read the exhaustive list or here or perhaps even the section on proposed new lead. SV's version makes claims that terms are the same: they aren't and no reference backs that. The SV version is wrong in the body too because it mentions crops (merged from intensive agriculture) and no article exists to link crop farming with factory farming. It disagrees with the dictionary and encyclopaedic entries referenced in the newer version on that regard. Hence "original" (e.g. SV's ) research. NathanLee 14:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC) (copied here by WAS 4.250 10:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC))

WAS 4.250

Combining these three is like combining articles on jews, zionists and israelis. Related but different. Even if some people don't get that. But until the content grows enough to force hiving off, factory farming could be a section within indusrtial farming which could be a section within intensive farming, but farming is a big subject - we just currently lack content due to lack of interst by contributors. They will eventually be seperate articles. The real issue here is an attempt to control not only the articles but also the discussion about the articles. Including asking a contributor to not contribute. That is wrong. That is controlling. That is contrary to an honest open thoughtful discussion. That is not helpful in finding consensus. I am against gagging any contributor. I am against deciding against the creation of other articles. No to censorship. Let the articles grow organigally rather than trying to tightly control their development. There is a lot more to farming than controversy. WAS 4.250 10:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

jav43

Since we're dealing with three distinct topics, we should have three distinct articles. Jav43 18:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

One article would work if it clearly explained that it merged three distinct topics. Jav43 20:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Analysis and suggestion

SV wants one article, but could live with two (one on animals, one on crops). Does not want three. No preference on titles.
Crum wants one article, since he feels the issues are the same and because he fears POV forks. No preference on titles.
Coroebus would like three articles — intensive agriculture, industrial agriculture, and factory farming — and could live with one combined one called industrial agriculture.
Haber would prefer one article called intensive agriculture or intensive farming, in that order of preference.
FNMF would prefer three per Coroebus: intensive agriculture, industrial agriculture, and factory farming.
Localzuk would prefer one article, but could live with two (one on crops, one on animals), but not three. No preference regarding titles.
WAS 4.250 would like to see three articles: intensive farming, industrial farming, and factory farming, but could live with one called intensive farming.
Jav would like to see three articles; no preference regarding titles.

In other words:

One article called intensive agriculture or intensive farming: Five editors (SV, Crum, Localzuk, Coroebus, Haber) would either prefer, or could live with, one article, and the only preference expressed for its title (by Haber) is "intensive agriculture" or "intensive farming," in that order. I think WAS 4.250 would also be able to live with one article called intensive farming.
Three articles called intensive agriculture, industrial agriculture, and factory farming. Two editors have asked for three articles and expressed no second preference.

Could the editors who would like to see three articles say what they would be prepared to accept as a second best choice? The aim is to find out whether there's enough common ground between us to proceed without further argument.

For example, could those editors accept one article called "intensive agriculture"? This would explore the history of intensive farming/agriculture (e.g. along these lines ); it would move on to the industralization of agriculture as society in general became industralized; and it would deal in separate sections with the issues raised by the industrialized production of crops, on the one hand, and animals on the other.

If the article became too large at any point, then we could think about creating separate articles for some of the sections, per summary style (so long as this doesn't appear to be POV forking), but we've not reached that stage yet. On the contrary, quite a bit of the content of the three articles was repetitive when I last checked. SlimVirgin 18:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)