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 There have been huge disputes over the naming of this article. Per multiple discussions, yoghurt has been established as the spelling to use, most often due to lack of consensus. Please, barring a change in the rules of the Manual of Style, avoid bringing up the spelling as redundancy has already aggravated some users.

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Name of article

I was told that user Danielfolsom violated Misplaced Pages policy (or guidelines or whatever) by engaging in a concerted "get out the vote" effort.

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Danielfolsom. Focus in particular on the period around 2007-05-16T02:01:25.

I was surprised that so many of the people who voted against changing to the sensible name (Yogurt) both 1) always show up on votes where they can keep a Commonwealth or British spelling (like Jooler), and 2) gave, as reasons, things that didn't make sense. (Note, I was also contacted about this vote, though I had already seen it.)

I don't think punitive action should be taken against Danielfolsom, but the name issue should be dealt with fairly. The reason the issue keeps coming up is that the current name doesn't make sense. The solution isn't to get your orthographic anti-American friends together to shut down the polling process, but to take the question of the right name seriously. --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-23 18:02 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to censor any comments, so I'll leave it here, but I urge people not to respond to this: we've already wasted too much time talking about names. Sorry Cultural Freedom. —METS501 (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

(No need for "sorry," I understand where you're coming from, though I disagree.) I urge people not to allow disgruntled tyrants to close down discussion on something that hasn't been allowed to reach its proper conclusion. If we address the question seriously, and without violating any Misplaced Pages guidelines, the issue can be put to rest once and for all, because it will have been put to rest in the right way. If we, on the other hand, allow irrational people obsessed with their favorite spellings to break rules and/or violate basic protocols of reasoned discourse, WP is harmed. --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-23 18:15 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I support reopening discussion, the whole discussion efforts were blindsided by impropriety as soon as Danielfolsom began to manipulate the straw poll, absolutely childish. --65.206.50.97 18:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it will not happen. We have debated many, many, many times, and we're not doing it again. Please, just work on improving this article or another. —METS501 (talk) 18:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I also support reopening the discussion and completely agree with Cultural Freedom's argument above. It is a hallmark of Misplaced Pages that decisions, through consensus, are ultimately made based on logic and reason. That has not happened here because of the "disgruntled tyrants". All of the logic and reason with respect to the naming of this article supports the most common name used for this subject, and original name of this article: yogurt. Anyone who genuinely wants the debate to end would support the name change, which is consistently shown to be the opinion shared by the majority of editors involved in these polls. --Serge 20:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Wait a second - what policy did I violate - I went through each previous discussion and just told people that voted that there was a discussion - I alreted both people that voted for yogurt and youghurt. That's absolute B.S. that your pushing there - Misplaced Pages is not a democracy - there are no votes, only discussions - so even if I did do a "get out the vote" thing, it wouldn't matter. Because you said exactly that I violated WP policy because I did a "get out the vote" thing, then I can assume that you don't have a specific policy to back you up.danielfolsom 22:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Second - per Misplaced Pages's policy on Consensus - you can't just do another discussion to try and get consensus - so you trying to push another debate is really worthless, because obviously anything could be reverted per policy.danielfolsom 22:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow I'm not even done - just to let you know IP address - A) again, WP is not a democracy, it was not a straw poll but a discussion, per WP:NOT, B) just out of curiousity - who are you? Because I noticed that the comment you just made was your first edit. Ever. So frankly either your talking about things that you probably don't understand - which by the way is "absolutely childish", or you forgot to sign in, or your acting as a sockpuppet - because no one's first edit is on a talk page.danielfolsom 22:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh and ahh ... one more thing. There's a huge difference between policy and guidelines - and the fact that you don't know the difference throws your argument out the window.danielfolsom 22:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

K Really now last but most important thing - did you tell the guy who told you about the debate that he violated WP Policy - because he did the exact same thing i did, only I did it to more people.danielfolsom 23:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

He did it to one person, you did it to dozens! Why don't we agree that all the people "illegally" told about this discussion won't put their preferences ("vote") up the next time? That would be fair by me. --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-25 01:28 01:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The discussion to move this article is closed as yet another no consensus for the move. In return, some of those who wanted it moved describe those who voted oppose as "disgruntled tyrants". Furthermore, a claim is made that those who opposed the move had no merits to their arguments, and that if they truly wanted to end the arguments about it they would support the move. We apparently fail to see that the American English spelling is the "right" way, and we are accused of Anti-Americanism. The person closing the debate is accused of closing it too early (apparently 6 days of debate isn't enough). Finally, the person who laboriously went through the past debates about this naming change and notified all voters of the new debate is accused of "manipulating the straw poll" somehow, even though he notified people on both sides of past arguments. If you feel that all these absences of respect for other Wikipedians is alright, then you need to take a good, hard look at yourself. - Mark 07:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Furthermore, Cultural Freedom isn't explaining what's more "sensible" about the other spelling. The point of the AmE/BrE ceasefire is that both spellings are perfectly sensible, and that's why we need to stop arguing about it. Nobody will be remotely confused, misled, or misinformed by either title, so let it die, already. -GTBacchus 15:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

1) What's more sensible about the "Yogurt" spelling has already been explained. 2) "Letting it die" is not the appropriate word choice. It was "killed" by an active effort on the part of Daniel_Folsom to gather votes from people he knows always unthinking vote against American spelling.

What I'm suggesting is that we have a serious discussion about this. We should not let orthographic imperialist tyrants "kill" open, free discussion. We should strive to make Misplaced Pages better. Most of the reasons given for those voting against the change were clearly absurd. Given that Daniel F. made a concerted get out the vote effort and the Oppose votes were NOT overwhelminginly in the majority, I think it's clear the wider WP community would support this move. Let's give them a chance to consider it, fairly this time! Then, if it's been considered in fair way, the result will be more "stable." If tyranny is what's largely responsible for the closing of a discussion, it will just keep coming up again. --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-25 01:26 01:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If it's already been explained why it's "more sensible", perhaps you can point me to it? I've been paying attention, and seen no such explanation. Second, please don't refer to other editors as "orthographic imperialist tyrants". It's very unlikely to be productive, as is generally the case with name-calling. Thirdly, what you say is "clearly absurd" is not so clear to others, it seems. Perhaps you can explain what's so clear about it, keeping in mind that I have read the arguments. As far as I can tell, in my honest estimation, I've fairly considered both alternatives, and the sensible arguments I saw were for leaving the article where it is. If you want a fair discussion, perhaps you could start by characterizing the opposing side more fairly. It sounds as if you'd rather call people "tyrants", and get your way. I've never seen such a strategy lead to progress. -GTBacchus 01:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is honestly bullshit. Seriously did you even look at who I told. You do realize I told near everyone right? I even told schmucky the cat - who was one of the strongest contributors to the yogurt side. Your making completely false accusations. By the way - I love how you ignore 90% of the real Misplaced Pages policies and flaws in your accusation that I mentioned abovedanielfolsom 01:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Daniel, You are quite right, at least a few of the people you told about the vote had previously voted for the "yogurt" spelling. I didn't look into every single one of them because of time constraints. Either way, my understanding is that directing people to a vote is a WP violation. If the outcome was a "no change" before, and the same people vote again, the outcome is not likely to change. That's (as I understand it) the rational behind not doing any kind of "get out the vote" effort, even an effort that isn't one-sided. I think the rationale makes sense. --Cultural Freedom talk 2007-05-25 04:11 04:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

And we just closed this debate with a clear no consensus - there's no way we should re-open it.danielfolsom 01:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

O yeah and by the way - stop using the word 'majority'. Misplaced Pages is not a democracy per WP:NOT (that's what an actual policy looks like by the way, slightly different than on that you just make up so you can attack other editors huh?)danielfolsom 01:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Mark, the issue isn't about American English vs. British English. It's about whether we follow Misplaced Pages policies, or not. Misplaced Pages editors have worked out rules to resolve these conflicts in order to avoid ongoing arguments like this. The reason this one won't die is because we are not following those rules, guidelines and policies. I would not be defending the AE form of a name on an article that was originally created using BE, even if it was switched to AE for a significant amount of time before anyone who cared noticed. The reason we can't achieve consensus for the change is because many BE supporters are voting against the change simply because they prefer the BE version, and not because of WP policies (evidence: dearth of policy based reasons listed in polls for "keep 'yoghurt' side"; preponderance of such reasons listed for "restore original name" side). For those opposed to restoring the original name, it is about AE vs BE. For those who favor restoring the original name, it's about following WP policy in order to resolve conflicts. --Serge 02:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Serge wrote: "The reason we can't achieve consensus for the change is because many BE supporters are voting against the change simply because they prefer the BE version, and not because of WP policies (evidence: dearth of policy based reasons listed in polls for 'keep "yoghurt" side'; preponderance of such reasons listed for 'restore original name' side)." I think this is the crux of the matter. Add to that the fact that many Americans or users of American spelling (like Mets501) are kind people who would rather avoid conflict, and the balance gets tipped slightly in favor of the less sensible spelling. In the case of theater/theatre, which parallels this in many ways (though there, the case for theatre was weaker, in my view), but where the -re spelling was the one that was judged to be more universal, the change was made, again, because there are more "Can't we all just get along" Americans than there are "Can't we all just get along Brits," and the mellow Americans tipped the balance. (Note, if the U.S. were a shrunken empire, the situation would of course be different! I'm not saying Americans are inherently more kind than Brits. The British are forced into a defensive position, and this makes big-heartedness difficult.) Anyway, instead of focusing on getting along, or restoring the British Empire, I think we should focus on WP policy.

Serge, I'm sorry, but there simply isn't one unambiguous reading of policy on this matter. You can try to dictate to me what my motivations are, but I oppose the change even though I'm American and prefer American English. I oppose the move because I'm doing my level best to follow Misplaced Pages policy as I understand it. I'm ready to explain this at length, but I won't be dismissed while having false motives attributed to me. That's no way to have a discussion. -GTBacchus 03:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Just let it go. Seriously. I speak American English, and would clearly personally prefer it to be spelled Yogurt. But it's not. Seriously, people, we need to move on. —METS501 (talk) 02:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, I did look through the people that Daniel Folsom invited and they seemed to include most people who voted both for and against the change previously. This issue has come up and will again, in my opinion, because the argument to keep the spelling boils down to 'there has long been consensus on this article...or at least no one bothered to revert to the original spelling so it the status quo should prevail'. Needless to say (and yet I will say it), most editors of Misplaced Pages are not much for traditionalism and believe that the quality of the edits and not seniority of the edit or editor should determine which edits to retain. I think this sort of spelling issue is a social problem that can be solved by technology, in this case by applying Template:SP, so readers who care about spelling can set their preference and everyone else can focus on other things. Antonrojo 03:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

We reached a similar conclusion when discussing BC/AD vs. BCE/CE, namely, that a technical solution would be the best. Until that gets implemented though, the ceasefire seems to be the best solution. If everyone just agrees to stop messing around with date formats (or in this case, spellings of yogurt), then we can stop pouring energy into a stalemate. The whole idea is to stop worrying about it, not to figure out which spelling each article "should" have according to somebody's reading of policy. -GTBacchus 03:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Goat-soybean yoghurt

User:Ecoinus has been adding a section on "Goat-soybean yoghurt", which discusses a (published) research project by a Taiwanese graduate school student. This product does not seem to be commercialized or widely used. Ecoinus, could you please explain why you believe this product is worth mentioning in Misplaced Pages? Without some evidence that it is more than a research project, I don't think it belongs in the WP Yoghurt article. Thanks, --Macrakis 18:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

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