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Revision as of 03:15, 27 June 2007

Biography B‑class

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Notability Again

If BC is not in itself notable what are we to make of the WP:NOTABLE guideline "The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines." ? If this is so, the general notability policy is applicable to articles rather than particular items within them. This dispute has dragged on because criteria applicable to articles has been applied to sentences within articles. It reminds me of the wisdom of Aristotle who said that we should be aware that judgements are only as precise as the nature of the subject matter allows, and of Wittgenstein's assertion that philosophical problems are fictions generated by grammar. Or perhaps it is a Rylean category mistake. These analogies are not precise. A minor issue has been treated as though it were a major one. Editors have been using sledgehammers to crack a nut. It doesn't much matter whether SB's lack of BC is included or not. And Misplaced Pages guidelines are just guidelines. Not laws which, like Colonel Nathan R Jessep's orders, are always obeyed. All consensus should take is goodwill on the part of a few good men. robert2957 14:01, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I belong to a sizable group of editors who think that the notability guideline is useless and will rarely quote it in discussions. (Notability itself is not unimportant; the problem is the guideline itself.) Regardless, the part of the notability guideline you're quoting says that the guideline does not apply to the individual facts/etc. that make up an article. It does not say there are no other reasons (or even notability aspects for that matter) that may prohibit/allow/require the inclusion of specific facts/etc. -- it can't say so, since a guideline does not trump policies.

For the full range of arguments, most of them not based on the notability guideline, see the discussion above. Interestingly, one argument states that we need secondary sources to help us assess if it's a nut or something requiring a sledgehammer. When in doubt, don't include = when in doubt, use a sledgehammer?

Just as interestingly, opinions vary from "Barrett wants it in the article" via "trivial" back to "insidious attack". A number of editors seem to think it's eminently important to include it in the article. Others seem to think it's eminently important to exclude it. AvB ÷ talk 15:30, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

PS I have proposed to remove an equally trivial fact (the license thing) as a kind of trade-off, where the other party ends the otherwise endless attempts to include the trivial BC thing. It feels nicely symmetrical to me. Although within a month a new consensus will alter everything we agree on now, so in that respect it really doesn't matter what we do. But WP:BLP forbids this eventualist attitude in BLPs... Perhaps you can quote us a philosopher who shows us that this is the way out? AvB ÷ talk 15:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully we lay out the facts and logic clearly enough to achieve some stability this time. And next.

I'll paraphrase. Based on the notoriety, aggressive statements including websites, broad declamations, numerous denunciations, litigiousness, previous expert claims, medical, science and health commentaries & related claims, the current article misrepresents the known qualifications of Dr Barrett by omission(s) - a significant public health-related commentator in the late 20th century based on his long running & fairly successful PR efforts (and legal strategems) to *project* his MD (and opinions) as *the* voice of "mainstream" science and medicine in the 1970s through the 1990s.

A more factual article would clarify and dispel confusions that last to this day, a fundamental service of encyclopedias.

The "license thing" helps dispel scurrilous sounding claims by partisans where I note even QW-related sites have over a dozen webpages that discuss "de-l'd" directly using the newly minted hyphenated "word"(ahem) and dozens of webpages graced with at least one particular partisan (treated like a dread disease - say, like TB :). (go to QW's "Search Our Affiliated Sites" and enter the hyphenated "word" or partisan's name). This is not to mention their (both sides) ongoing legal and political warfare. (I am weaseling with "scurrilous-sounding" because I have seen comments & questions about the continuity of the license between 1993 and now, but no evidence either way, and observe BLP in reference to any partisans who might be just as "sensitive" or litigious).--I'clast 21:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It's very simple.

• The "delicensed" claim, which you some editors want to include in the article, is a lie. Best evidence is that he retired in good standing.
• The "not board certified" claim, which you also want to include in the article, is merely misleading. You claim that its absence is also misleading.
• Neither claim is supported by a reliable secondary source. The first is not supported by any reliable source.

— Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Question: do you mean the first or the second? Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 12:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong about me and my intent, Arthur. I have never supported "de-l'd", I only explained the situation without using Google searchable names and inflammatory words. (Given "... "incomplete data, obsolete data, technical errors, unsupported opinions, and/or innuendo", asmong others, I do, however, see some irony.) The "not board certified" is complex but I disagree; the legal studies part is the clearest omission. I earlier said I am doing something about getting a more reliable secondary source for the "not board certified" discussion (...if dead trees will move less slowly) that should help the suddenly fastidious. I think sometimes some editors confuse me with parties that are quite dissimilar with much different backgrounds, interests and personalities.--I'clast 22:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It's amazing where OR and especially SYN, will take you. Shot info 03:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Probably unwittingly, I'clast is trying to make Misplaced Pages into a crystal ball by making it say what they see in their crystal ball. It could be true. It might be happening. When it comes to a certain scientist (no, not Barrett) I (almost) can't wait to infuse Misplaced Pages with what my crystal ball is telling me. (My crystal ball = what I view as my superior talents/skills/experience/etc of science, politics and mass psychology in a specific area and most others as a "true belief"). But that isn't how it's done here. AvB ÷ talk 12:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no crystal ball in observing the common types of biographic data discussed in this section, just uninformed readers when we fail. I have no idea what (which parts) shot_info is commenting on here, it could well be Arthur's mistaken SYN about me, other than similar edits by shot seem to follow me around.

As far other places, I do make note that popular political beliefs are often substituted on science issues (and I do take action). That's not a crystal ball, that is usually an extra helping of WP:V on various science matters, sort of a Misplaced Pages NPOV-SPOV that bulldozes a lot of common bs here. I have actually had better luck collaborating with many mainstream doctors about this than most non-medical editors. I am not saying it is easy, it's hard work technically but I often have been able to dig up the current research (past few years, decade) from authoritative sources (well ranked medical school sites, govt authorities) that still surprises the less currently informed or those relying on more (convenient) proprietarily influenced sources (e.g. pharma detail staff, heavily advertised articles & journals).--I'clast 13:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We're probably on the same page in terms of educating docs etc. on "controversial" issues. But it takes time. What is learned or accepted by individual physicians rarely percolates back through the system; what is needed is (painting with a very broad brush) such things as (1) awareness (among students) of the other side in (real) controversies (2) in the longer run, for the controversial to become mainstream, enter textbooks, etc. (Even the most partisan attackers have a place in this process, cf. e.g. AIDS activism). However, WP editors can't do much re Semmelweis type paradigm shifts when it's too early. Misplaced Pages policies are based on the assumption that once such a shift has materialized and an "authority figure" ignores it, anything from consumer organization to reliable sources will be writing about it. If this doesn't happen, it's time to go and discuss policy and community standards. Not to fill the Barrett talk page with wishful thinking.

-- stepping off soapbox now, resolving not to discuss this here for a while apart from the occasional oneliner, or the long-awaited advent of new acceptable sources. AvB ÷ talk 15:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Pls note, what I am discussing for the Biography section doen't require a crystal ball or a paradignm shift - just a basic description of his educational and professional background, legal and medical, skipped in the rush toward highly detailed, and occassionally less independent or substantial, accolades.--I'clast 00:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to make it clear that I have never supported saying that Stephen Barrett was "de - licenced". I don't want to get mixed up in that contoversy. I am saying this because a post from me heads this section. I have never questioned the good faith of Stephen Barrett. And finally, I shall be retiring from editing this article for the time being. It is taking up too much of my time. In a couple of months time I shall come back to editing the Misplaced Pages. I believe there are changes to be made to the articles about Neville Chamberlain and atheroma, to name but two. →До свидания товарищи! robert2957 07:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Integendeel! Tot (spoedig) ziens, kameraad! AvB ÷ talk 12:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I corrected my comment about "de-licensed". It wasn't I'clast, who I was replying to, or Robert. However, there are still differences between that claim and the Board Certification question, and I believe there can be good faith arguments on either side. In fact, I've made arguments on both sides. There cannot be good faith arguments on "de-licensed", at this point, as reliable primary sources indicate it's incorrect. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. How do you feel about the fact that the Bio section, first para, contains a defense against the de-licensed nonsense? Like board certification info (and certainly a lack of it), this is not information we routinely add to bios, and seems to somehow acknowledge the bogus de-licensed criticism. Its only function is to debunk that criticism.

It seems that no one is interested in my compromise where both the disputed board certification info and the active/retired license info are left out/removed. If so, I'm inclined to work towards moving/including both criticisms (with full context) in/to the criticism section. Detractors say x, Barret says y. For the delicensed nonsense, the Quackwatch site suffices; for the board certification hype (I mean, do detractors really believe that Barrett's being board certified would have changed anything?) that would mean accepting say the Donna Porter article as a reliable source for this item only. A consensus seems possible. Or would the editors currently arguing it's an acceptable source suddenly decide differently? AvB ÷ talk 22:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think including Barrett's lack of Board Certification in the criticism section would be fine, except then it would have to include that he took and failed the Board examination (as that is part of the criticism). What source are you going to cite as Barrett's response to this? -- Levine2112 22:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps editors could be persuaded to accept Barrett's defense on a Misplaced Pages talk page? To tell you the truth, I personally have no problem detailing the whole thing in the criticism section; as I've said earlier, my main objection would be that the section is too long, but if it would end the impasse I'm all for it. Then again, when floated earlier, the idea sort of flopped. AvB ÷ talk 22:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Essentially it would says something to the effect of: Barrett failed his Board examination and thus was never Board Certified. His critics cite that this disqualifies Barrett's claimed expertise; however Barrett responds that lacking this qualification never affected his career adversely. Yeah, it's poorly written, but does this cover all of the points essentially? If so, I don't see why a polished version should be too much longer. This of course is all citable from reliable primary and secondary sources (especially since we are treating this like criticism and thus Barrett's critics are certainly reliable sources of their own criticism). -- Levine2112 22:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll reserve my opinion for now; let's wait and see if others weigh in. (But note that "reliable" in "reliable sources of their own criticism" isn't quite the same thing as "reliable" in WP:RS etc.) I'm turning in for the night. AvB ÷ talk 23:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think one thing which we can all agree on - given how many have written about Barrett's lack of Board Certification being a detriment (the lawsuits, the news articles, the reasearch papers, the notorious borderline libelous press releases - is that this is an extremely notable piece of criticism. -- Levine2112 23:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're both on the right track. ॐ Metta Bubble 00:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

My view on this hasn't changed since the last time I said my view on this hadn't changed. The reasons are the same I've been voicing for months: the dearth of good sources, undue weight and WP:BLP. I wouldn't agree that the criticism is notable simply because the critics voice it; see WP:SELFPUB. I don't foresee my take on this changing until or unless better sources are found. thx, Jim Butler 16:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

So criticism that is self-published is never notable? If that is the case, the Quackwatch can never be used as a notable source of criticism. Regardless, the criticism - Barrett's lack of Board Certification makes him less qualified of an expert witness and a medical critic - has been asserted by many sources. Of the source which I have listed, at least five of them are quoting or summarizing another party making this criticism (so SELFPUB isn't an issue). Please understand that this is an entirely different proposition than what we have been discussing for the past three months; as this is a proposal to introduce this information as criticism (completely in context). Make sense? -- Levine2112 17:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say that self-published criticism is never notable, but sometimes it isn't. We don't go including everything Barrett writes, either. Unless you can provide a non-partisan, reliable secondary source for the criticism you quote ("Barrett's lack of Board Certification makes him less qualified of an expert witness and a medical critic"), I don't see that it passes BLP or undue weight or WP:V. Now, Levine2112, surely you know by now this isn't going anywhere, so why do you continue? When there is no consensus to add material to an article for BLP reasons, it is poor form to keep the issue front and center on the talk page, and of course disruptive. Perhaps it would be good for you to disengage on this issue? If not, I'd support an RfC on your behavior and a block. Enough is enough. --Jim Butler 01:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's time to seriously consider an RfC, if editors do not disengage. --Ronz 01:42, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Jim, you are completely misinterpreting what is going on here. This is a completely new issue that has been raised and suggested not by me, but by AvB. Many notable critics of Barrett's have cited that his failure of Board Certification makes him less qualified. (Before the issue was to not include this criticism but rather just the fact that he isn't Board Certified.) AvB has been pretty consistent in his/her feeling that by taking this fact out of the context (as a criticism), it creates a policy issue. However, now we are discussing re-introducing this material in full context as criticism, thus getting rid of the policy issues. I think a discussion of this will get us somewhere. I hope you and Ronz will see that. At this point, the reluctance to mediate this issue per WP:DR has been the primary blockage in reaching a resolution. I hope the dissenting parties (either by vote or by silence) will opt to participate with civility in this very realistic proposal. Threats of RfC is not a good way to begin, civility-wise. Please let's collaborate and settle this amicably. -- Levine2112 01:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Levine2112, I do understand that you want to present the BC stuff as criticism rather than simple biographical info. BLP and WP:V still apply, and my objections about the sources you've provided remain the same. Nor am I "threatening" an RfC. I am simply objecting to your behavior as is generally done on WP, and as I'd expect anyone to do if they objected to mine. thank you, Jim Butler 23:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This has already been settled via BLP policy and no consensus. This is very exhausting. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 01:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

From WP:BLP#criticism:

The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article.

Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

So let's take this point-by-point. This view of several critics (that Barrett's failure of the exam and subsequent lack of Board Certification takes a notch out of his credibility armor) is certainly relevant to Barrett's notability. The view of these critics are based on several reliable secondary sources (Dynamic Chiropractic and the WCA are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand). I believe we can work out a way to write this material in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material (especially if we include Barrett's rebuttal, as suggested by AvB above). We will certainly strive not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics; and given that the WCA and DC publication goes out to 60,000 plus and they represent organizations each with large memberships, we are certainly not representing the view of a tiny minority.

This criticism is sourced reliably and is about Barrett specifically; thus there is no guilt by association claims here. This material is noy biased nor malicious (at least no more than what one would allow from any criticism). Thus I am not pushing an agenda or a biased point of view; however since DC and WCA are offering criticism originally purported by Negrete, they are in effect a third-party source. Perhaps, the Fintan Dunne and the Donna Porter article can be used as well or in their place, as they too offer up similar criticism. -- Levine2112 02:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Round and round and round we go. Ad nauseum again and again and again. Please stop. --Ronz 03:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You all are being unbelievably difficult! I am starting to suspect that there is some ulterior motives at work here to protect Barrett from the valid, notable, and citable criticism. -- Levine2112 04:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. --QuackGuru 04:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Anybody would think the opposite is true given the overly high levels of criticism compared to other BLPs and the demand by the Anti-Barretts to include yet even more while deleting biographical material. Methinks the COI is on the other foot (which probably explains the reluctance of key figures to put their money where their mouth is...but this is an aside). Shot info 04:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I am neither anti-Barrett nor do I have any COI. As I have attested to several times now, I have no dealing with or about Barrett outside of Misplaced Pages. I had no idea who he was until coming to this article. I am not a practitioner of any alternative or allopathic medicine. I don't sell pills or supplements. I don't participate in blogs or forums about about Barrett. Nothing. Any COI claim on me would be unfounded and frankly, untrue. -- Levine2112 06:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Founder of NCAHF?

Right now the lead states he is "the founder of the National Council Against Health Fraud (NCAHF)." I question that statement. He is at best a co-founder. The previous lead stated he was "a founder", which is accurate enough. This needs to be corrected. -- Fyslee/talk 08:21, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Request to make a small change as described above: {editprotected}

The article on the NCAHF agrees with you that he is a "co-founder", so I have changed the LEAD accordingly. SGGH 19:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. -- Fyslee/talk 19:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If we are trying for a compromise, new proposal then......

Why don't we start back with what I originally suggested? That being:

Barrett is a 1957 graduate of the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons and completed his psychiatry residency in 1961, he is not board certified.

It comes to the point and is generic in what it says. It also can be looked up if someone is interested. --CrohnieGal 16:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

We cannot include the board thing against BLP policy. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 16:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a marvellous suggestion, Crohnie. I support it, yet I don't imagine it will gain a consensus (as evidenced by QuackGuru's response just above). Please note, however, that further above in "Notability again", AvB and I are working together to introduce this information in full context of the sources (as criticism), thus elimintating possiblie claims of WP:OR, WP:RS, and WP:BLP. What are your thoughts? -- Levine2112 17:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the conversation between you and Avb which is why I posted this again. I have not changed my mind about this not being in the article. I just thought if something was going to be put in that this is generic. --CrohnieGal 17:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I like your suggestion. I ought to afterall; run-on sentence aside, it is pretty much exactly what I have been suggesting for a while now. -- Levine2112 17:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

According to Crohnie: She has not changed her mind about this not being in the article. According to Levine: He likes this suggestion Crohnie has made. It seems Levine now agrees with Crohnie. Super! :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 17:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I like Crohnie's suggested wording to include Barrett's lack of Board Certification. I think that is pretty clear. I also think that it is pretty clear that your post here is just meant to be annoying. Please refrain. -- Levine2112 18:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Crohnie said in part: I have not changed my mind about this not being in the article. Crohnie's suggestion is, when in doubt leave it out. I too agree with Crohnie! It is pretty crystal clear. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Archived

This talk page was becoming gigantic (446 kb!), so I have ruthlessly archived it. If there are any threads that were unresolved and need to be rehashed, please pull them from the latest archive. Neil ╦ 17:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

re: "science"

"He has said...he learned...difference between scientific thought..."."...distinguishing science from pseudoscience..." etc. I previously removed the quote part as contentious, self congratulatory, self promotional statements that have concrete counterexamples and critiques by far more accomplished jurists, scientists & doctors to the expertise implied in this assertion. (I left the medical statistics part as a sympathetic treatment of how he might have gotten his start.) Not even Newton or Einstein's WP biographies have such bold self statements after epochal breakthroughs.--I'clast 10:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Fyslee reverted to a POV statement without any discussion here. The problem is not whether we can verify Dr Barrett's quote (Fyslee's "justification" in the edit summary), the quoted assertion tremendously violates NPOV - a self congratulatory statement that implicitly construes the author's work and criticism as unusually correct or authoritative. A number of papers from more accomplished scientists (PhD professorial researchers, national awards, *scientific* papers) and national authorities, as well as the results from court, contradict this rather bold assertion of "infallibility" (that the author's capability to "distinguish science" is so notable where published failures to correctly distinguish the science (or legal arguments) are also notable, dramatic and current. In the example I'm looking at (the fundamental criticism been published for over 20 years, with rising levels of independent, authoritative confirmation, now from NIH and NAS), Dr Barrett's statements fail to notice that his "proof" drastically fails to repeat the original test(s) in several ways (a number of shortcomings), fails to even begin to adequately control the tests (ineffective controls for simple problems carefully cited before the biased tests even started, a biased investigator pompously screwed the tests up anyway, ignoring correct, expert advice), and that the newer (and highly biased) tests do not remotely cover the hypothesis, stopping short over 90% (99+%?) of the input (controllable) variable range. Stuff that repeatedly violates high school science lessons (duplication of conditions, control, gross hypothesis testing) in just single examples. That's scientific expertise and implied "infallibility"? Again, I'm looking at real scientists' and authorities' published work, with now verified statements. Still uncorrected over at QW after years.

A much more NPOV, yet sympathetic, treatment of the start of Dr Barrett's interest in his avocation is the med school statistics part.--I'clast 18:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Page Protection again?

Judging by recent edits, I think we need full page protection again. Agreed? --Ronz 17:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Stephen Barrett. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

We need to remove the "no court victories" per WP:BLP. It's not sourcable, and may not be correct.

We may need remove the board certification paragraph, per WP:BLP. It's been argued as a possible violation.

The change from "aims" to "claims" under the Online activism paragraph is actually a significant change, which may have been perceived as a spelling correction.

The change from "denunciation" to "denouncement" under Defamation lawsuits is a mistake, perhaps also in the guise of a spelling correction, as the target is not a valid (American) English word.

The lawsuit section was removed as possibly being a WP:BLP violation, and should not be left in while the article is protected.

— Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree to the court victories; though this is 100% true. Thus far Barrett has indeed lost every one of his libel suits in court (or it was settled out of court).

Disagree with the Board Certification as it is valid and notable criticism from reliable sources.

Disagree with the claims/aim as it is actually more accurate and much more NPOV.

Agree to denunciation/denouncement. Not familiar with how or if this was changed or was originally inserted incorrectly.

Disagree to removing the lawsuit section as it is expressly permitted by WP:RS and lends itself to Barrett notability. Despite the misconception here, his lawsuits are not part of the criticism section. This is fair and accurately covered.

-- Levine2112 21:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The change from "aims" to "claims" indicates that they "claim" success. I don't think the web site says that. http://www.quackwatch.com/00AboutQuackwatch/mission.html reports: "Quackwatch, Inc. is a nonprofit corporation whose purpose is to combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct." However, if the change was intentional, it doesn't need to be reverted under the {{editprotected}} banner. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 22:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry that I didn't wait longer for others' viewpoints before requesting page protection, but I thought it was best considering what was happening. --Ronz 22:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No worries Ronz. Arthur, please remove your editprotected request as it's never going to get consensus. Please make one request at a time, beginning with the most practical. I don't think any change is so crucial that we can't discuss it here properly first. ॐ Metta Bubble 02:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Call for criticism

Please discuss the criticism changes rather than saying "round and round". This isn't helpful and since this is a new discussion, it is entirely untrue. I have laid out the policy rather clearly; now let's discuss with civility. -- Levine2112 18:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I choose to respect WP:TALK, WP:CIVIL, WP:CON, WP:DR, and WP:DE by not repeating past discussions. --Ronz 18:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a new issue. Before we were discussing inserting Barrett's lack of Board Certification into his biography (Remember? This is where you said it was being used out of context.) Now we are including the full context (that this has been used as criticism) and we are placing it the criticism section under the apt "Qualifications..." section. If you have an issue with the new addition, let's discuss it here. -- Levine2112 18:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No it is not new, given that I suggested it months ago providing we had new sources to draw upon. --Ronz 18:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Mere suggestion doesn't mean that this is old news. This has never been discussed in full as a consideration for the criticism section. This is legitimate criticism which has been a subject in numerous articles, several court cases (of which Barrett was on the losing end), and a couple of research papers. Please provide a valid reason not to include this information. -- Levine2112 18:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, no. I already have addressed this. --Ronz 18:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not just about you, Ronz. Let's give others a chance (those with less of a WP:COI here than you) to address this issue. It's only fair. -- Levine2112 18:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone have a COI here? Report it immediately. Give specific names and supporting evidence. Otherwise remove what's a false and uncivil personal attack. Thanks. --Ronz 22:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It's actually very instructive to see who cry "COI" then don't follow them up? Curiously it is the very same people who fail to follow other WP policies, not just COI. Now, why would that be... Shot info 22:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

ABMS

The link to ABMS is misleading as they didn't exist when Barrett was "failing" his BC. Mind you this has been pointed out previously and I note that the editor in question has taken on himself to ignore this (again) to push his anti-Barrett POV. Shot info 22:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Board Certification

Did I miss something? I just reread the article and the information removed by the first editor that protected the page is now back in. But this I find more disturbing is that the board certification is in the article, against the consensus, that is unless I missed something. Please read the article again to see what I am talking about. --CrohnieGal 00:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

See WP:WRONG. (And see, and possibly comment to, my {{editprotected}} request above.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that, Arthur Rubin. I hope other too will enjoy its tounge-in-cheek nature. It's always the "wrong version" when it's not your version, eh? Anyhow, now would be an excellent time to begin civil discussions long-sinced abandoned. Above, I comment on two things: 1) The policies which support the inclusion of the criticism related to Barrett's lack of Board Certification and 2) The policies which support the inclusion of Barrett's litigation history. Mostly, my policy explanations/interpretations were met with hostility and a stubborn unwillingness to discuss on a policy-level. Now perhaps we will be all more willing to have a civil discussion. I'd appreciate that. -- Levine2112 01:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The many levels of irony preceed you... Shot info 01:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Last time the article was protected it was also on the WP:WRONG version. Go figure. ॐ Metta Bubble 02:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Alternative health

I guess we better discuss what is the right version. For starters, I'd like the quotes around "alternative" removed unless we're going to include a specific quote. Can we agree on this much at least and get an editprotected? ॐ Metta Bubble 02:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

edit request

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Stephen Barrett. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Hi there. I invoke the policy (guideline) that the wrong version was protected. The board certification thing was added against BLP and against consensus. Also the court litigation was agreed upon to remove by consensus. See alarm bells. Please revert back to before the large amounts POV, BLP violations, and against consensus edits were made.Click here. This will lead you to the right version to protect. Thank you very much. _-Mr. G-_ 03:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• B-Class biography articles
• Old requests for Biography peer review
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Articles with connected contributors
• Misplaced Pages semi-protected edit requests
• Misplaced Pages edit requests possibly using incorrect templates